Gold Dust Phenomena

We’ve had many conversations regarding the strange manifestations in various forms, one being gold dust.  I still consider it a great possibility they are man made, as I did the claim of the falling feathers I personally witnessed during an IAHR conference while Bill Johnson was speaking. Notice I said the claim of, not that I actually witnessed feathers falling, and I was sitting quite close. Much can happen in air venting systems and I also believe people can go to great lengths to manipulate others for their own gain. We need to think with sober minds.

Having already established the many false teachings of doctrine, practices and beliefs at Bethel, here is the latest manifestation from the most recent open heavens conference -

If these manifestations truly are from God, then we must seriously consider this point made by a friend -

Exodus 32:21

Then he (Moses) took the calf which they had made, burned it in the fire, and ground it to powder; and he scattered it on the water and made the children of Israel drink it.

Taking this verse into consideration – the people having had erected the golden calf for worship -  it implies the gold dust at Bethel would be a sign of judgement, not one of blessing. Remember in the earlier verses of Exodus,  Pharaoh’s magicians/enchanters were allowed to conjur and mimic God’s signs of judgement against them for a time. (See Exodus 5-8)

On a Facebook link of the video, a man commented the gold dust was proof the veil had been torn. OH! Consider – Matthew 27:51 Then behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, v 54 So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, the feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!” (see also Mark 15:37, Luke 23:45)

The veil has already been torn, a sign resulting from the death of Christ, allowing believers personal access of worship and communication to the Father, an act formerly reserved only for priests. It was the death of Christ in submission to the Father, the one time sacrifice for our sins that tore the veil in the temple!  The veil was not torn as an act of worship to the golden calf of Bethel.

Another comment claimed that the cloud was moving upward, not down, proving only God could do such a thing. First of all, that is not the way I saw it, and secondly – air flow–!  Proof whether or not this event was of God, if not foolery of a man, is found in His word, not in emotional based human reasoning.

The people are being conditioned to accept anything as a sign and wonder from God, even the antichrist will be seen as the Messiah, if it is possible to fool the elect.

It is possible.

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107 thoughts on “Gold Dust Phenomena

  1. OK. Never mind my last comment. After watching/listening to the video, the sound of the hysterical out-of-control laughter sent chills down my spine. I believe that when there is a true manifestation of God we won’t be acting like that! We will be prostrate on our faces in awe and with sincere repentance. The church could sure use a good dose of that now.

  2. I must say that it was the response of the people that disturbed me the most. As was stated by vintagegirl, if God was really present in this, all they would be able to do is fall on their faces…not laughing and saying we’re gettin’ it on video…yea! I just don’t get why the crowds just love to see this sort of thing.

    • They have been taught that God is their “pal” and that He is “fun”, rather than who and what He truly is. I’ve heard several comments lately that they have “taken Him out of His box”. Ludicrous! They have brought Him down to their understanding and have lost the needed fear of Him.

  3. mkayla, whilst I would never discount the possibility of demonic manifestations, I tend to take the view that things like this are either deliberately faked or else figments of people’s imagination. As I have said many times before, the music and preaching in hyper-charismatic meetings have a hypnotic effect on people such that they are vulnerable to suggestion and their perception of reality is distorted. You combine this with crowd dynamics and peer pressure and it’s a recipe for manipulation. It is a fact that the extent to which people in a crowd will obey their leader is dependent solely on how much they view the leader as an authority figure. And Bill Johnson is undoubtedly the current big name in the charismatic world.

    Also, some churches do use smoke machines to enhance the lighting and create an “atmosphere” during worship, something I find extremely worrying.

    Katie is quite right – in the Bible, when God shows up, people fall on their faces.

    • Ananstasis,
      People fall on their faces –

      I know it! I know it! Wouldn’t we!!! :) People are always saying what they are going to do when they get to heaven, who they are going to see or talk to. I always look at them and say, “Yeah, – when – I get up from my face before the Lord”. Isn’t that enough to just stop us in our planning for the future tracks? ha!

  4. You know what is really disturbing is the video that comes on right after this one. It is called, “Bethel Church and the Glory of God”… If you look at the “manifestation” of glitter that is forming during their worship, you can see CLEARLY the vent above this so called “manifestation” and see people’s faces and movement. At the end, if you really look closely you can see the one on the left sifting something down through the vent, the lights catch it and voila you have a true false Glory of God manifestation. Lame… and disturbing…

  5. maybe we could all give these Christ-believing folks a bit of a break. we all in some degree or other superimpose our desires upon the world that we see. if they see God in this event, isn’t it because they desire so much to see God’s glory? ok, so maybe the glofy of God is no so much in the lighting and effects that we see in this video or in any number of churches on a given sunday, but i’m certain that the glory of God is present in the people there eagerly gathering and anticipating to see God. can we stop judging and start affirming whatever Jesus culture we have chosen to be a part of?

  6. Hey M’Kayla, I have a couple questions. First of all, I tried posting a comment somewhere on one of your topics asking for any help in trying to refute the theology of Randy Clark, Bill Johnson, and Heidi Baker. I can’t find it anywhere. I know that you approve all comments, so maybe you haven’t approved it yet, or maybe you rejected it. However, if you did accept it, could you please point me to the topic that it was under? Thanks. If it’s up, I would like to know if anyone replied before I type up the e-mails to the church. If you deleted it, that’s fine. I’ll just do research myself. I’d like to get the e-mail out this week, so I’m trying to gather resources.

    Secondly, I’ve never really understood this gold dust thing. Do you know where the idea for it came from? Or where the origin of it was from? It never happened in any church I’ve been in, thankfully. However, I did know someone who talked about it and had a daughter that was involved with the Bethel Church. The gold dust thing sounds like its all about greed.

    • Arwen I e-mailed you last night re Clark and Baker, etc.

      I’m not sure where the gold dust and other manifestations originated from. I do know Patricia King is very much into them, and has made quite a few videos in support of them, after having traveled to different areas. Some are quite disturbing. Several years ago there was some talk that they were demonic, some have debated it a form of alchemy, but I believe they are man made, having nothing to do with the supernatural.

  7. Thanks. I didn’t check my e-mail, so I will do that tomorrow. :) I’ve been busy today, and didn’t even think to check my e-mail.

    Oh…and about the gold dust…the lady at my internship site whose relative was attending the Bethel “ministry” school actually had gold dust manifest at her house :( Our intake coordinator was into this stuff, too :( She was part of the other woman’s non church related Bible study. Gold dust manifested at her house, even when they weren’t having Bible study meetings. Sure, they might have had glitter lying around the house, but I think there was a demonic supernatural element to it.

    It seems like some of the occurrences of this stuff is faked, but some of it does really happen in a supernatural way. It’s deceptive either way. If it’s faked by humans, then the humans are the deceivers. If it’s from a demonic source, then the demons are the deceivers.

    What I really would like to know is whether or not the gold dust type manifestation occurs in pagan religious ceremonies. I tried looking it up a bit ago, and about the only thing I found was a reference to fairies and pixie dust. These fairies, then, would be demons.

    It seems to be harder to find a write up of spiritual manifestations occurring within pagan circles, as those people seem to keep the stuff more private than these charismatic/Pentecostal Christians do. If I knew a pagan or wiccan, I would ask them if something like the gold dust stuff happens in their religious meetings.

    • I’m doing a bit of reading and these manifestations seem to associate with occult practices – wicca, shamanism, and alchemy, etc. I have been hearing the NAR (Cindy Jacobs and Chuck Pierce especially) command the heavens, declare open heavens, which is exactly the comment from someone regarding this video, and have often wondered if they have the ability or power to actually cause things to happen. I will not be surprised one bit to find they do.

  8. Thanks for the link :) I have some ideas of how I want to go about this whole e-mail. It’s going to be a long one. Since they all know that Todd Bentley was false, I need to show that all three — Randy Clark, Bill Johnson, and Heidi Baker supported Todd Bentley. I know that Bill Johnson was part of that “commissioning” ceremony.

    I also know that everyone I want to send the e-mail to is very, very opposed to Word of Faith/Prosperity gospel doctrine. Seeing that link gave me an idea — Bill Johnson really has a prosperity prayer that he has people pray? If I can find a copy of that on his website and any other direct references to prosperity theology, that would be good.

    A plan of attack is forming in my head… :)

    I’m going to keep praying about this.

    • This is what my church began reciting after they became Bethelized.

      “As we receive today’s offering
      We are believing the Lord for:
      Jobs and better jobs,
      Raises and bonuses
      Benefits Sales and commissions
      Favorable settlements
      Estates and inheritances
      Interests and income
      Rebates and returns
      Checks in the mail
      Gifts and surprises
      Finding money
      Debts paid off
      Expenses decrease
      Blessing and increase
      Thank You, Lord, for meeting all of my financial needs that I may have more than enough to give into the Kingdom of God and promote the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
      Hallelujah!”

  9. In the first video – I saw dry ice smoke – obviously in a sanctuary stage with stage lighting – anything is possible from a theatrical standpoint. In the second video – you can see people through the vent at the 1:20 mark dropping gold dust through the vent. If you ever took that “gold dust” to a jeweler you would find common milar – a substance used to make balloons. It can be bought at any Hobby Lobby for 1.99.

    For the person who wondered about a real glory cloud – I saw one back in the first charismatic move about 1979 – in a small chapel upstairs in the student center of our college. The only lights on at the time were the type found in a dime store – no theatrical stage lights. Those of us present were prostrate on the floor – QUIET – reverently worshiping God. Before the cloud ever showed up though, we had spent hours in prayer and repentance – not crying out for a display of His glory but rather that He would purge our hearts of any sin and transform us into His likeness. It was totally different than what today’s NAR people practice. We had bibles open and prayed verses aloud or simply read scriptures to each other.

    The difference between then and now is like night and day. We were humble, seeking God and studying His word daily, praying for revival. During that year I was privileged to lead over 50 students to the Lord for salvation. They all stayed in the group and were discipled – seven later went into full time ministry. I wish all you “youngins” would know what a wonderful reality the Holy Spirit is but you won’t find it at Bethel or Joyner’s church. These pagans have trashed charisma and turned it into a freak show. May God judge them as He did Nadab and Abihu.

    • Thanks for the link TAOV – :)

      “Repentance for poverty”…when did poverty become a sin, in need of repentance?
      We prayed a similar prayer at the Vineyard here, crafted from Johnson’s model. You get sucked in from all the long worship, the emotions, and the manifestations and it’s easy to just go right on in expecting God to give, give, give, cuz we’re gonna do, do do. But notice, there’s always a bit of the “bring the gospel” tucked in, just so they appear to be on track. This is not the method of prayer modeled and taught by Jesus in Luke 11, or His prayer of Intercession in John 17.

  10. Well, it wouldn’t surprise me if any of those false apostles had the ability to “open up” heaven either. The false prophet of the Anti-Christ will be able to make statues talk and call fire down out of heaven. He/she will be able to do many counterfeit signs and wonders so that those who don’t trust in the real Jesus will be deceived. If the false prophet of the Anti-Christ can do that, then surely that does not rule out the possibility of other false prophets and apostles from having similar power.

    Revelation 13:2-4; 11-15 Especially the last sentence of verse 2, verse 4, first part of verse 12, verse 13, verse 14, 15

    From the NASB:
    2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority.

    12 He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed. 13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men. 14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who *had the wound of the sword and has come to life. 15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

    Oh…and Revelation 19:20
    20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.

    There is real power in the occult, and that is what attracts so many people to it. The same can be said about occult “Christianity.”

    Yeah, I’m hoping to find a direct reference to gold dust within the occult so that I can show anyone who is involved with it that it is evil…since reasoning alone doesn’t seem to work with people who are already wrapped up in it.

    And thank you for your prayers! :) I need them, and the church needs them. I will do all I can to prevent even a tiny bit of compromise in that church. I love the people there, and I don’t want to see the whole church start going down a path that I know will lead to shipwrecked faith.

  11. oh…..:( Those people look like they are worshiping the manifestations.

    And I didn’t actually watch the original video posted in this thread, but I’m watching it now :(
    The background noises sound demonic.That is NOT true worship of our holy God. The “worship” seems to be so interrupted by people screaming and making weird noises that anyone trying to worship wouldn’t be able to.

    They keep on repeating Jesus’ name in an unholy manner :(

  12. What I saw on the first video very much looks like lens flare.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lens_flare

    As to clounds going up proving anything, convection currents can go up or down, and air circulation is easily controlled by HVAC systems.
    As to feathers, I find them stuck to my shoes and coat frequently (I breed white pigeons). I always warn people at church.
    Used to see a lot more “gold dust” when it is popular for the tweens to apply glitter as make up.
    Having said all that, I – at times- have felt a manifest presence of God in some meetings – to the point that I sensed some smoke or clould. However, the reaction was not to start screaming “Wow!” and whip out my iPhone. See Exodus 3:5-6 for the biblical reaction to God’s manifest presence and see what I mean. Holy is the Lord!

  13. All –
    The sharing of your experiences and your ability to rightly divide with such obvious sound minds :) has made quite a contribution to this article. It my hope and prayer the deceived will find the truth, here, or elsewhere.

    Hugs and blessings to each of you. :)

  14. oh….and and I just found this link:

    http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/HN_Open/get/messageboard/251.html

    I never saw that letter mentioned in anything – just vague references to it on various websites.

    Apparently, this is a letter that was sent out to all Vineyard pastors at the time of the Toronto Church being kicked out. I wish that all Vineyard Churches would stick to the principles defined in that letter. I have to wonder, though, how many copies of that letter are still around. How many of the pastors today have read it. Then, at least Vineyard churches could permanently distance themselves from this perversion that is the descendant of Toronto.

    I’m going to save a copy of that letter in case I ever need to use it, and possibly the e-mail that I send out this time. Although I don’t know how appropriate that would be, since they aren’t seeking to promote any manifestations with the webcast. What they are seeking to promote, though, is the teachings in that conference as well as impartation. The impartation opens the church up to future problems, including unbiblical manifestations. I think I’ll probably not include the letter this time.

    I pray too that people would come out of deception, and that hearts would be open to the truth.

    And thank you so much for the link to the prayer. I’m definitely going to include it in the e-mail to my church’s leadership.

    • I was told by my former Vineyard pastors that Wimber had made a stand against Toronto. He took JP Jackson under his wing and yet Jackson emerges as God sent interpreter of dreams some time later. Today, his teachings are nothing short of new age, yet he is an acclaimed teacher! So while Wimber may have made this claim his teachings remained and continued to be quite opposite that of the bible. The manifestations at Toronto continue today and while I can’t vouch for all of the Vineyards, the one I was involved with continues in its path. In addition, Todd Hunter is now part of the Emergent church, as I saw again of the Vineyard just before leaving and had a part in a pastors conference that took place there.

  15. Javanut,
    I’m with you on the glory cloud stuff, but not sure that is a “vent” at 1:20. As illuminated by a flash at 3:06, this appears to be a 4 tube flourescent high bay fixture with mirrored parabolic reflectors.
    (Yes, I am an electrician.) These are used in warehouse type settings and would be used here for cleaning and setup.

    http://www.contractorlighting.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=t8+high+bay&osCsid=f625f3766a507c9f8f8c124a12afb586&gclid=COuux6zDhKwCFY515Qod5x9aAg

    • I appreciate that Bill. I had the same concerns that it wasn’t an actual person, but a light fixture and reflections. It’s hard to make out in a video so the confirmation is good to have.

  16. As I watched the first one again, I found it interesting that towards the end of the video , they pan the people, and some have their hands in their pockets, one girl looked like she was biting her fingernail, a few just disinterested, and the guy on the stage telling people something( like he was patrolling the crowd or something) and he never looked excited at all. If Gods’ presence was there, wouldn’t everyone be effected by it? And in the second video, M’Kayla, not sure that was a furnace duct with people throwing stuff down, it looks like it could be a fixture(light maybe?) reflecting the images of the people under it. Well, without someone scrutinizing it closely or professionally, we may not know.But it sure seems not holy.

    • Thanks Bill, I came across Heflin a couple of times, seems there is also a connection with her and Gwen Shaw of End Times Handmadens.

      As to the alchemy end, I found a connection between that, Todd Bentley and a form of Freemasonry.

      The Rosicrucian path incorporates both metaphysics and mysticism. Metaphysics is that which falls beyond the five physical senses; for example, intuition, visualization, and healing techniques. Mysticism is simply the process by which you may eventually experience direct, conscious union with the Absolute, Divine Mind, Universal Intelligence, or what some Rosicrucian students call the God of their Hearts. This is not done by adhering to specific tenets or beliefs, but by learning and applying natural laws which, over time, allow you to
      experience Divine or Cosmic Consciousness. The Rosicrucian Order does not attempt to define the nature of the deity. Rather, you will remain free to discover this through your own reflections. This same approach applies to everything that is presented through the Rosicrucian teachings.

      Alchemy—the art of transmutation—came into prominence with the Alexandrian Greeks. It was then introduced to the Arabs, who then transmitted this art and forerunner of chemistry to Europe. The alchemists played a tremendous part in the early history of the Rosicrucian Order. While many alchemists were interested in making gold, some were more concerned with the transmutation of human character. European alchemists and Knights Templar, in contact with the Arab civilization at the time of the Crusades, brought much of this wisdom to the West. In Europe the transcendental alchemists—mystics and philosophers—sought to transmute the base elements of human character into the more noble virtues and to release the wisdom of the divine self within the individual.

      From here – The Hand of Todd Bentley – http://mkayla.wordpress.com/2010/01/12/910/

  17. Funny, I was watching the first video, and was thinking, wouldn’t it be funny if I saw my sister-in-law in the crowd, as she goes to Bethel…and a few seconds later, yep, there she is!

    The first video didn’t even really look like a cloud, or anything more than condensation in the air, which is common at our church, whether from a smoke/fog machine, or some atmospheric condition (heat from stage lights/body mass and cold air from HVAC ducts).

    In watching the second video, I think what is being seen around the “vents” is actually a reflection of the people below. If you look to the left of the item that looks to be a vent where we see movement, you will see a black vent outlet, coming out of the side of a large HVAC duct, just above the projection screen (also painted black…this is how the HVAC system looks in our auditorium). In the picture at the below link (of Bethel’s auditorium) you’ll see several lights on, that match the size and approximate locations of the items that appear to show movement in the first video, giving the appearance of someone dumping something out the vents. During the video, as they pan around the room, you get better shots of the rectangular light fixtures, that are turned off. Also, compare the lighting difference between the picture and the video…the video seems to only have the spot lights on, with MOST focused on the stage, while in the picture, about half of the overhead lights are one. I would venture to say the reflection is coming off the back part of the light fixture, being illuminated by the stage/spotlights.

    http://www.beenup2.com/photos/608086-john-healy-from-dayspring-church-in-australia-speak

    Please understand I am in NO WAY defending Bethel or “gold dust”, I just think we need to make SURE what we are claiming is accurate, and not be guilty of making an incorrect assumption. There is more than enough easily refutable material coming from them, to risk making this claim, without irrefutable proof.

    • I agree the need to be careful, but we are simply kicking around what may be going on without definitive conclusions. I’ve seen several videos on this and there is something falling. Sometimes it is easier to see than at others. I agree about the HVAC systems and know many things get trapped in there – bird feathers – ahem! Mr Johnson! I’ve been in meetings where gold dust has manifested, just before I arrived, and have heard stories from people I knew personally. Either they lie or something is going on. I also read some time ago that a kid was caught dumping feathers from a ledge during a Bill Johnson conference.

      My point being God does not dump gold dust and the closest thing resembling is from the scripture in Exodus. I appreciate your input from your professional experience. Hopefully your sister will hear you and the Lord will bring her out of Bethel!

  18. I’m not sure which video stated this “glory cloud” took place at 11:45 p.m. after nearly everyone had gone home, at the end of the conference in which John Arnott was a part. You know – Toronto Blessing – yep. So, 25 or 30-so years after, deception and apostasy not only continue, but grow in number. And here we have a large mass who have been trained up under experience based teaching, rather than biblical, who/what are they going to believe?

  19. I think the letter has value, apart from John Wimber. I think the important pieces were the call to biblical practice and condemning the extra-biblical. It’s the terms of the letter that I wish all the Vineyards adhered to. I don’t know a lot about John Wimber himself, and I cannot defend him. But the very fact that the Association of Vineyard Churches did make a stand against Toronto should be an argument against including Toronto type speakers or activity within Vineyard churches. According to the letter, Toronto manifestations shouldn’t be occurring in Vineyard churches. I don’t know anything about Todd Hunter, but I do know that people can flip their positions, which is unfortunate. Still, the letter should be a precedent for saying that those types of manifestations shouldn’t happen.

    I know that those manifestations do occur in some Vineyards, and I think that discerning people within them should report them to the Vineyard board. The board needs to know that this stuff is still taking place in some Vineyard churches :(

    That was the reason I posted the link.

    Furthermore, no Vineyard should be associated with or support Bill Johnson’s church.

    However, I know that reality is very different from that…and I know that there are way too many churches that do encourage their followers in the direction of Bethel and the Toronto stuff. But maybe some of the churches that do support Bill Johnson can wake up to the reality that what is going on there is false.

    People caught up in the Bethel stuff, I hope, will see the truth and come out of Bethel….regardless of whether or not they are part of a Vineyard. It would be wonderful if a lot of Christians stood up together in opposition to the stuff that is being promoted at Bethel. This includes the gold stuff manifestations. Let’s continue to speculate about this “manifestation.” I’ve really enjoyed reading what others have had to say here.

    • Arwen, it was never my intention to detour you from referencing the letter. I only wanted to add what Vineyard pastors (who are over the others in this region) taught me. Aside from praying, I will be holding my breath for their reaction. I am in awe that you are holding their feet to the fire as we all should be!

      I too have enjoyed, and learned from others here on this topic. As an fyi, I printed your comments on tongues and will be going through it soon. I appreciate the feedback!

  20. The thing is, if they are chasing after these “signs”, or if the signs are the main thing, then they are thirsting again and again for more signs or whatever comes along instead of Jesus. But if Jesus is their total focus then they are satisfied being in Him because He is the bread that fills. If you spend time watching those people you will know which it is: signs or Jesus?
    Signs = thirst for more “whatever” …. Jesus = satisfaction in just sitting at His feet and knowing His truth (word), “You will know them by their fruits.”

    Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, You seek me, not because you saw the miracles, but because you did eat of the loaves, and were filled. John 6:25

    And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. John 6:35

  21. Whats the bottom line on this? If , and its a very big if, these manifestations were from God, could we honestly believe that given the bad dodctrine, the false teaching, twisting of scripture and the blatant new age practices that go on at Bethel, God is Going to ” show up”? . I s the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, going to manifest in this place?. We shouldn’t be too easily distracted by reports of these wonders, after all , the coming of the lawless one is with lying signs and wonders, instead , the focus should be on the teaching, and if that is false , then it follows that everything else is.false.

    • These goings on are part of their teaching. Even if this cloud is only dust from the HVAC system, the people there believe it to be something from God. Where are the leaders of this conference – Johnson, Arnott, who should be putting a stop to it, but they believe the same things!

      God will give people over to spiritual blindness when they trade the truth for the lie, worshiping that which is created rather than the Creator (even if the created is only dust!) How far have they fallen!
      A friend posted –

      Dt. 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if you will not hearken unto the voice of the LORD your God, to observe to do all His commandments and his statutes which I command this day, that all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you.

      VERSE23-24…….And thy heaven that is over your head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. The LORD shall make the rain of thy land POWDER and DUST from heaven shall it come down upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

      It’s amazing that once you really start looking at these things, there really is a lot in scripture that pertains to them.

  22. M’Kayla, thank you. If the Vineyard pastors who were over the region that you were in told you that John Wimber was against Toronto, then why were some of them promoting Toronto manifestations? That’s the logic that I don’t understand. If they knew Wimber had been against it, and they knew what the board had decided about Toronto stuff, then they should have stopped whatever was going on in the Vineyards that you referred to when you said that the Toronto stuff was still going on. Did the regional pastors in your area know what was going on in some of the churches in their region? If they did, but refused to investigate, then that shows a problem with the pastors who were assigned to watch over that region. If worse, they knew what was going on, but didn’t want to do anything about it, then they were bad regional leaders. Unfortunately, bad apples can sometimes get high up into church leadership of any Christian organization.

    It irritates me that unbliblical stuff is allowed to continue in these churches.

    However, some of it might be happening because some or most of the leaders have no idea that it is still going on. It sounds like the churches in which it happens in, the settings are very abusive — that the leaders have everyone in complete submission to them, and don’t allow anyone to question anything. If people are under that kind of pressure, and that’s all their seeing in the particular church…and they have close ties with like-minded churches, then it’s going to seem like that’s how the whole Vineyard is. Very few people are going to think to report the church to higher levels. Thus, it’s possible that not very many leaders have a clue as to what is happening in those churches. If they started receiving a lot of reports about the same church or churches, I think that would move them into investigating some of these churches.

    I know that at least one person on the board strongly values integrity, and I know that he would be angered if he learned about some of these churches. Honestly, I wish that these unbiblical churches were all kicked out. Then at least they wouldn’t be in an organization that is supposed to be opposed to unbiblical practices. Those churches then would be forced to affiliate with organizations that promote unbiblical stuff, like Bill Johnson’s church. Their associations would reflect clearer their doctrinal positions, and people would be more likely to know what they were walking into when joining those churches. It would then make apologetics much easier.

    It’s kind of like in the United Methodist Church when pastors don’t agree with United Methodist doctrine. If they don’t agree, they should leave. These churches that don’t agree with Vineyard’s decision about Toronto should leave. That’s why we have denominations. A denomination has specific beliefs, and those beliefs set it apart from other churches. If a church strays from the guidelines of that denomination, it doesn’t belong in that denomination. (I know Vineyard doesn’t like to be called a denomination, but that’s the easiest way to talk about churches.)

    Oh, and I’m glad that the tongues thing I wrote is useful to you :) This is how we should be encouraging and supporting one another as fellow Christians, and I see that going on very well here.

    Now…off to write my e-mail…I feel like this is going to take a lot out of me, as I feel like a lot is at stake, and I think it is a very serious issue. Please continue to keep me and those at the church in prayer.

  23. Ray, I think another thing to consider is “which” signs follow those who believe and what are those signs, and their purpose? Really, all our answers to this is in the word of God.

  24. Oh…I wanted to update all of you. I have e-mailed the senior pastor at my church at home. I didn’t want to e-mail the associate pastor yet because I wanted to see what the senior pastor would say. I don’t expect to hear back from him until tomorrow. Please keep praying.

    I gave him a link to the prosperity prayer at Bethel, gave him links to all three of the speakers with Todd Bentley, told him why I’m concerned about the church showing these people, gave him verses about lying signs and wonders …we’ll see. Oh, and I also challenged the idea about modern day apostles and the idea of impartation.

  25. Ray, I think another thing to consider is “which” signs follow those who believe and what are those signs, and their purpose? Really, all our answers to this is in the word of God.
    ………………………..
    Jaime , that is a really good question , and one which very few can actually answer . I’ll post a link to study on this topic that I found to be extremely beneficial .

    http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/these_signs_shall_follow_them_that_believe.shtml

    • I can’t get to this link to read all of it right now, but I am going to approve it anyway – something I rarely do – because you have commented here enough over the last couple of years and I trust your judgement. :) Thanks!

  26. Just to quickly preface so it does not get looked over – this is a request for resources regarding Bill Johnson, Randy Clark, Heidi Baker – If you can help, please do. Thanks – MK

    Here’s the comment I made on a topic that doesn’t allow comments on it….this was the comment I was referring to on an earlier comment on this topic. I welcome anyone’s input.

    I tried doing a search on google for “Voice of the Apostles conference” false, and it took me to one of the pages in your blog, but I can’t seem to find the page that the info was on. Anyway, the reason I’m writing this is because some people at the church in my hometown want to show a webcast of it soon.

    I don’t believe in modern day Apostles, and I’m very concerned about the content that will be shown. I guess they will be showing Randy Clark, Bill Johnson, and Heidi Baker. I know that all of them are false teachers, and I would like to bring my concerns to the leadership in the church.

    The people in the church are not given over to these false teachers, although some would respect them. Around the time of the Lakeland “revival” they tried imparting the Todd Bentley stuff in a special service. I was concerned then for the church because I KNEW Todd Bentley’s stuff was demonic. I sent an e-mail to people I knew in the church….including some in leadership, and they decided not to do anything further with Todd Bentley or Lakeland. They sent my e-mail around to people in the church, and several people thanked me for writing it.

    It’s time for me to write some more e-mails. It is a small Vineyard church, and some in the church do not condemn the Toronto “blessing” or the Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship. I need a tactful way to convey truth so that I don’t turn them off to actually examining doctrine.

    I’m thinking of addressing the unbiblicalness of impartation, drunkenness in the Spirit, and modern day Apostles. I would also talk about the false theology of Bill Johnson. I don’t know much about Randy Clark or Heidi Baker’s theology, but I know it is off. I will just need some tangible proof that they’re all false teachers. I did a tiny bit of research on Randy Clark and found out he was responsible for the Toronto “Blessing.” I don’t think linking him to the Toronto “blessing” will work with convincing them, as some of them like it. There must be another theological point of which I can try to convince them of his falseness. Does anyone have any suggestions? Thank you.

    The “Voice of Apostles conference” is put out by a group called Global Awakening.

  27. Mkayla
    My apologies , I shouldv’e checked first with you, I don’t think that there is anything offensive in there though , just some good old biblical exegesis.

    • Ray, apologies aren’t necessary. :)
      Thanks tho! I’m going to print it out and go through it because it does interest me and like I said, I trust your judgement.
      Blessings!

  28. M’Kayla,

    Thanks for posting my comment. I may owe an apology for not writing a bit clearer…most of the comments were,as you said, just “kicking around” ideas about what may be happening, though at least one comment from another poster definitively said you could see someone dropping the dust through the vent, and that’s more of the focus of what I was responding to.

    I absolutely agree there is something there, and whether it is deception by man, or truly supernatural, I have no idea. One thing I do find interesting though, is no one can explain the purpose of it, if it is from God. From a cursory review of miracles and signs/wonders from my memory, I seem to recall, everyone had a purpose. Whether someone was truly healed from disability or disease, fed, etc, they had actual needs met. Even the fish that had a coin in it’s mouth, was used to pay a tax. If there are truly jewels and gold dust appearing, why do they need to keep taking offerings? Shouldn’t they be able to sell what is appearing (especially, with the price of gold right now? ;)

    thank you also for your comments regarding my sister-in-law. She is in deep…she got sucked in with MorningStar, and is enamored with Bentley, and then she and her husband moved to Redding just to go to Bethel. I’ve gotten to the point where my wife and I just pray that God will remove the delusion from them, because they won’t listen to anybody who isn’t in lockstep with them.

    On another note, I find it interesting how quick the NAR groups are, to scream “under grace, not the Law”, yet everything with them is how to manipulate “spiritual laws” to accomplish something, whether doing “spiritual warfare”, or to gain wealth, or that if you don’t do something the right way, with the right words/actions, then God can’t work. IMO, they are all about “laws” if it gives them power, but shun anything that even comes close to governing personal actions, as being part of the “law”.

    thanks for putting together this blog, it is refreshing to find like-minded Christ followers.

    • Hi Steve.

      Thanks for the clarification and the encouragement! Sometimes communication gets a little tuff on these blogs, but certainly no harm was done!

      I do believe God is raising up more and more of us to fight against Bethel in exposing the outright heresy taught there in its various forms. I am sorry for those still into it and I know they are held bound by a powerful demonic force who has blinded them to the truth. I know well. But, I also know that God is much more mighty, being known as the Most High. He pulled me out of it, after allowing me to see who the “presence and voice” really were.

      There is such an emphasis on Joel’s Army going on and Rick Joyner’s vision of a bloody battle between the blues(experienced based believers) and the grays(bible based believers) is right there in place as we continue to witness a growing hatred against those of us who speak the truth – the grays.

      Don’t give up on your family or lose heart. They need you to stand in and pray for them as I am sure you do! If they truly belong to God He can open their eyes and bring them back!

      Blessings!

  29. For Arwen4CJ: Global Awakening is Randy Clark’s organization and Voice of the Apostles is his annual conference, usually held in the Harrisburg, PA area. I went to a couple years ago and generally heard from people like Bill Johnson, Heidi Baker (always a main attraction), and others in evening talks and day seminars. The website is http://www.globalawakening.com
    According to Charismania folklore and legend!…Heidi Baker and her husband were poor missionaries who received impartation at Toronto, where she was so zonked by the Holy Spirit that she had to be put in a wheelchair for a lengthy period of time. When I saw her speak, she was more or less drunk in love in Jesus. You came away wanting to be just like Heidi! It was powerful in person, but I’m not sure it would translate in livestream, especially if you are not used to this kind of “preaching”.

    • Netflicks currently has a documentary on her called Mama Heidi. I started to watch it but grew bored very quickly. I was only flipping around that day, and if anyone is serious it may be an easy and free source of info on her.

      Heidi actually grew up in a wealthy home on the coast, can’t remember where exactly in so Cal, — Laguna??? – - and lived next door to one of the Gabore sisters. Affluent, it the word I believe she uses to describe her neighborhood. She was saved as a teenager, 16, I think, and the way I heard her tell the story her deception started right then and there. I’ve also heard 2 versions of the call to Africa, the one I previously stated and the one I heard some time back that taov mentioned. Heidi has many stories of the goings on in her part of the world, miraculous, healing, salvation, on and on. I am not in any way diminishing the mighty power of God, but I do have strong doubts as to the truth to them. I cannot be convinced that God is working through the deception of Iris Ministries.

      The first Heidi video I watched I felt that same thing. I saw her “in worship” on the floor, completely removed from anything or anyone in the room, singing to the Lord (? what lord?) with her beautiful voice and I wanted that same intimacy. Heidi speaks in general of Jesus Christ the Messiah, but after that she is completely off the rails. I don’t think I ever heard her speak without the presence of the spiritual drunkenness, even when she is able to stand. She is flighty and silly and probably gets away with it because of her looks and manner which are seemingly innocent, childlike. Other women mimic her behavior, which I witnessed while in line waiting for her meeting doors to open. However, her behavior and manner do not stem from a sound mind, her fruit is not biblical, and the Holy Spirit does not inflict drunkenness on anyone. Still, people flock to her in Mozambique to be trained to be just like her and to do what she does.

      I’ve heard her accounts of many visions which are quite bizarre – if real – and her claims that she was taken to a store room in heaven that had spare body parts. She was granted permission to enter that room anytime she needed when someone she encountered needed a new body part. Since, I have heard this same trip repeated by others and even used as a teaching base in healing! So, here we have the experienced based theology trumping the word of God.

      –A warning to never again watch a person and want what they have spiritually. To do so is idolatry and its road leads to a very dark place. –

  30. Thanks for the links to Heidi Bakers ministries.

    I have heard back from the senior pastor, but I didn’t really think his response to me was good enough…so I e-mailed the associate pastor and one of the people who wants to show the webcast.

    The senior pastor thanked me for bringing my concerns to him, wanted to make sure I felt that the church was a safe place for me to disagree with other Christians in a “family” of believers — he wanted to make sure that I knew that I was at home there, and that we don’t always have to agree with things at home. Then he told me that John Wimber used to say something about chewing the meat and spitting out the bones, and suggested that maybe some of this applies to that situation. He then concluded that he didn’t know that he would be going to go to the webcast….which sounded like he didn’t really like the teachers himself. However, he did make it sound like he’d be open to discussing this in person…but not in e-mail.

    It just seemed like a wishy washy response, to me. He might not agree with the teachers, but this wasn’t enough for him to want to do anything about it. It was a kind of “well, it’s not for me, but maybe for other people” kind of approach.

    I e-mailed him back and told him I’d be willing to meet with him to discuss these things in person, and that “eating the meat and spitting out the bones” didn’t apply to the content of false teachers. I won’t be at that church on Sunday because I have to help my parents with a hog roast at the church I grew up in….but hopefully someone will want to meet with me in person during the week.

    I wish the senior pastor would have said something like, “Wow, these are major concerns of yours. I will look into the matter further, and discuss this with the elders and with the associate pastor. I will also pray about it.”

    Anyway….I watched the above video and Heidi just comes across as extremely fakey to me — I mean in terms of the tone of her voice and the way she talks about God’s love. I also noticed that she doesn’t really preach from the Bible. Yeah, she reads a passage, but she doesn’t expound on it. She just goes back to talking about yeses and noes, which makes very little sense…especially in the context of the verse she reads. The whole “sermon” is fluffiness and weird stories. Yes, God loves us….but that’s all these people seem to emphasize, which is not any different from New Agers. Their demonic spirits always tell them that they are loved by god, too. (Lower case ‘g’ because the god of the New Age isn’t the real God.) It seems like people are lulled into these teachings because of the love of God emphasis.

    @ theagonyofvictory,
    Thanks for the additional information on Randy Clark and Heidi Baker.

    Can you tell me if you ever heard the gospel preached at the Global Awakening conference? What was the content that was being taught? What was their gospel and/or overall message?

    @ M’Kayla,
    Thanks for the additional information on Heidi. I don’t have Netflix, but maybe I can still watch the documentary on their website. I really need a video in which Heidi outlines what she believes the gospel is — and what she believes about Jesus’ death and resurrection. All I seem to find are her messages about how much God loves us.

    The body parts and other experiences Heidi has had sound very creepy to me.

  31. For ArwenCJ4

    I would like to suggest that you go to Iris Ministries website – irismin.org – and check it out. Read their newsletters, especially the older ones, if they are still posted. Also, they have a Face Book page. If you can, look it up. They post lots and lots of videos on it. Also, Heidi is all over YouTube. I think once you see these videos and read the newsletters, you will get a better feel for them. Iris Ministries claims many, many miraculous healings (especially healing the deaf) and even raising people from the dead. Heidi is said to have raised several people from the dead and her ‘specialty’ is healing the deaf. Of all the various ministries of the Revival Alliance (B Johnson, J Arnott, R Clark, the Bakers, Che Ahn), Iris claims the most miracles and Heidi ‘performs’ the most.

  32. The link is
    https//:events.globalawakening.com/topics-voa

    Well, it was just the senior pastor who gave me that response, not the associate pastor. I don’t think that the senior pastor discussed it with her…he was just giving me his take on it. He didn’t even bring it up with the elders or anyone…

    The good thing, though, is that the person showing the webcast wants to meet with me in person to talk about it, and he’s going to see if the other person who is showing it can meet, too. (I e-mailed him when the senior pastor gave me such a wishy washy response.)

    I have not heard back from the associate pastor. She may be on vacation, as she wasn’t at church last Sunday.

    I modified my e-mail slightly when I sent the message to the associate pastor – I added in a bit about Bill Johnson having Bob Jones at some of his conferences. The leadership in that church considers Bob Jones to be a heretic (at least the leadership of the church at the time of Todd Bentley’s “revival” considered Bob Jones to be a heretic, and that was the main reason they decided to have nothing to do with Todd Bentley or Lakeland).

    Ruth…thanks….that is a good idea regarding Heidi Baker’s stuff.

  33. I’ve watched 15-20 videos of Heidi at the request of a friend while the whole Lakeland thing was going on. I first asked if she had Tourette’s syndrome and was told – no – that “whoa” thing is supposedly a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. News to me and I’d been charismatic for over 25 yrs at that time.

    Then, I saw her given the microphone to speak and that was probably after at least an hour of worship and she proceeded to go into worship again. Like she had to get in touch with God. I wondered why she didn’t prepare ahead of time like other ministers and be ready to go when given the microphone? I was always taught to submit to the authority in the church which would be the senior pastor – if he said it was time to preach – then it’s time to preach – not fall down and worship more.

    Then I heard that Heidi had a doctorate in theology. Interesting. I have a master’s in theology and have respect for women who are into academics. Yet I never heard anything remotely theological, Greek, Hebrew etc from her lips. Nothing – nada. No evidence from her talks that she ever studied theology. From her emphasis on “laid down lovers” it’s evident she skipped the classes on ecclesiology or she would have known that the whole church is referred to as the “bride of Christ” not the individual believer. In no way shape or form are we to teach that Jesus is your boyfriend and that you are His lover.

    Then I heard all about how she has such healing powers yet not one person is ever healed visibly in the conferences she does in Western countries. Never saw her lay hands on one paralyzed person and them get out of the chair. Not one.

    My conclusion after watching these videos and yes reading her website – is that she is a NAR heretic just like the rest of them. All talk and no results.

  34. @ Javanu,

    Thanks for your feedback regarding Heidi Baker.

    It is a shame that there are so many people caught up in this movement. There are good things that these people do and say and write….but they don’t seem to be able to draw a line as to when something is false…thus they all welcome it with open arms.

    The NT does say that things are going to be tough in the last days. (We don’t know how close we are to Jesus returning, but every day has moved closer to that day since Jesus ascended into heaven). It’s getting harder and harder for Christians to be able to identify false teachers. They don’t want to look at the person’s whole ministry or teachings or doctrine. If someone does or says or writes something they like, they accept the person. To a lot of people it doesn’t matter if the person is teaching false doctrine or even outright heresy. :(

  35. This discussion of gold and feathers always brings a strong reaction – on both sides. I am more interested in what it means- how it aligns with scripture- and how it affects us in our witness to others and our impetus to preach the gospel. Not only has this issue been brought up here but also recently on the Bethel Church and Christianity facebook group.

    So I’m going to weigh in with some more thoughts about this on my blog – and also will show how John Wimber ties into all of this.

    http://beyondgrace.blogspot.com/2011/10/gold-dust-and-feathers-at-bethel.html

    • A great point –

      And so I ask this: did Jesus, God incarnate, actually die on the cross for our sins? Did He rise again on the third day? Was this witnessed by not only the believers but by unbelievers? Here is the bottom line: if this does not get you attention, nothing will.

      Luke 16:19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell[d] from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
      24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
      27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

  36. heres the problem: in the church I left we had a “ministry” session which I was at.. people were kneeling hands & knees on the floor worshipping in the sanctuary… then no more than 2 people stood up examined their hands & decided they had Gold dust on them… well between the 2 people it was no more than 4 or 5 flakes…. considering they had been placing those hands on the floor in the same space where childrens art & craft regularly takes place & glitter can be found & flakes off of greeting cards used at weddings etc… it is reasonable to suppose that those flakes could have been genuine glitter… the people present at the meeting were not that fussed at the prospect- but the whole incident was retold to the senior leader who then posted on his facebook page (a public place) . an amazing visitation of Gods Glory, people were covered in Gold dust & renewal is here etc etc…

    I have to tell you this is DUPLICITOUS & false… at no point was the dust/glitter examined & verified as genuine. People were not “covered in it” I was there I know the truth…. but because this guy is a senior, self appointed national leader, people will believe this testimony fully…. its a reactionary – storytelling fable to get other people to believe something extraordinary is happening with the church, & the town… its about pride & the (self) promotion of man…

    let me tell you that just the week before ( I challenged him about lying signs & wonders) – this guy explained to me that a sign is just a sign…. signs are ambigious… they just point the way to God….

    & then he posts an exaggerated- misleading account which lands on the FB pages of other leaders…. which demands of them some kind of awe filled respect with no ambiguity…. Friends let me pull no punches… this is Hypocrisy & it wasnt true… this makes it a LIE

  37. Fire tunnels (Prayer Tunnels)

    2 lines of people form parallel lines – make an arch & then everyone else passes through under whilst being prayed for

    whatever could be “wrong” with praying for people…. that is more or less the response you may get if you challenge a leadership about the practice of fire tunnels…. & of course biblically there is absolutely nothing wrong with praying for people, Fire tunnels, however, are not just about “praying for people…”

    lets root this back to the word.. of course, this has to be our starting & finishing place in making any & all decisions in & around our lives including that of being church ( obviously!)..

    1 Tim 4 v 12 -14

    devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching. Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through prophecy when the body of elders laid their hands on you.

    & 1 Tim 5 v 22
    Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, and do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure.

    both these verses point to the conduct of people giving prophetic utterances over peoples lives have a high level of responsibility & recognised Godly authority.
    similarly it could be a wise interpretation for the believer to consider “dont be quick in having hands laid on you”

    to my mind the God we serve is very full, Jesus said he came to give us life in abundance this means if anyone endorses a persons’ spiritual calling or gifting (in the sense thats its already recognisable in the person) & hands are laid on as a permission giving/releasing/ blessing… the persons praying should demonstate at the least, responsibility & authority for the calling/gifting being endorsed..

    if not, doubt, confusion can abound when the “thing” being prayed about doesnt seem to fit…. this results in an unGodly outworking…. as the person doesnt know what to do with it & it becomes & “issue” in their lives ( oftentimes they are also blamed for this personally too) in other words, it becomes a stumbling block.

    Leaders have the responsibility to ensure that if they are endorsing someone for ministry, that that persons lifestyle matches up… if that person is in sin when it is exposed, it takes the credibilty of the person praying down with it too… ( thinks of Bentley’s Commissioning for example)

    Leaders also further have the ongoing responsibility to provide opportunity & environments for that “thing” minstry/gifting/calling to flourish in a person – anything less makes the leader a “man of hot air words” If any anointing is transfered it is from Christ himself & is recognisable & evidential & fit for purposes that connect with the word of God… why should it be that anyone in the precious body of Christ receive anything less.

    Fire tunnel type of praying is somewhat different. first of all, IMO it is a quick fix, I have seen Leaders ( Local & national) use it as a means to get everyone prayed for quickly by the “man of God” first he will often pray for the leaders ( see some scriptural precedent is present ) & then get them to fire tunnel & then everyone else present to file through… the way its rigged though- how can any genuine, responsible leader then back out of praying for any person if he feels it not right or not participate at all through his own check in the spirit… everyone in the room has been ” set up” to do it.

    & do it they will until it becomes so entrenched in the body, we forget the time when this did not happen at all in our meetings… it becomes normal & everyone accepts & expects it

    - coupled with the supposition that “religious persons” dont like fire tunnels – here in the UK they seem to have been largely renamed “prayer tunnels” & they operate in exactly the same way… dont be fooled…..

    it is my belief & experience that the first 3 or 4 times a fire/prayer tunnel is done with a particular group of people nothing much happens, people go through & are left wondering what all that was about… it seems fairly tame .. – people can take it or leave it BUT! heres the rub… once a congregation has been “desensitized” into thinking that way- the fire tunnel experience begins to have a strange effect on people, they come out from it with bizarre physical manifestions, most of which are uncontrollable: laughing/shaking. body & or head twitches/ shouting/vibrating type movements.

    here are the questions:
    how does all this line up biblically?

    what is the spirit behind the anointing being imparted?

    where is the responsibility from the “Big Boys” who rock into to town & roll home leaving the local church to deal with the fall out?

    Why are Church leaders – “Copying” methodology in praying for people rather using biblical Guidelines – waiting & weighing to pray with individuals as individuals? Firetunnels being nothing more than a mass, one size fits all anointing ?

    why has the name been changed? if there is only good to be had, & this is truly, truly from God – why not stand on those convictions rather than making it seem more “pallatable” to the (Religious) discerning/questioning mind.. ( in order to get them to participate & not resist)?

    if a fire/prayer tunnel is used in our meetings & services with any degree of regularity – does this not become as religious a method as those who religiously choose & use the book of common prayer every week?

    friends we need to know,, that this Method of praying/imparting was developed through Bethel Redding…. It is a Gimmick … its is not biblical & certainly, if its not of God will be spiritually harmful… furthermore- the early church were taught that it was indeed possible for a spirit to be ” transferred” but they were instructed to keep themselves pure by not being too quick in laying praying hands on people… scripture admits therefore that something unGodly exists here & warns explicitly against it….

    currently, sadly it seems the church at large is doing its level best to do the exact opposite

    if you havn’t come across this yet check out you tube…. see what it is & what happens when people go through these tunnels..

    please weigh this up scripturally, pray & be wise in your choices I reckon if it hasn’t already, this will come into you world at some point probably soon & you need to be informed in order to make appropriate Godly decisions.

  38. Yes, this paradigm shift is preparing, conditioning those that lack discernment for the great apostasy. It’s man and mammon centered, nothing new under the sun here. If anyone can suggest how to approach friends that are deeply, deeply caught up in this deception, please leave comment. Thanks. C

    • bmwpower740, approach your friends with the simple truth, asking where they see these things in the bible. Pray for them, asking the Lord to reveal the truth. What kind of god rains gold dust, anyway? It is a hard situation, but this is what we are called to and are seeing people come out. Praise God!

      • Kayla, Thanks for the advice. I agree 100%, its the pure and simple truth of scripture. They are deeply caught up in the sozo healing rooms and are on the hamster wheel of never ending dvd, cd, online subscriptions Bethel, books, conferences and seminars. I will pray for them as I will be talking with them both soon. God Bless you Kayla!

  39. Funny thing is, its not really any different than having dialog with a mormon or JW. HYPER-CHARISMATICS have very similar responses as those in bondage to the cults.

  40. You are spot-on, M’Kayla. As you know, I have two friends, a married couple who was/are in the movement. Fortunately, she has come out of it and is now vocally speaking out against it. Her husband, on the other hand, is completely immersed. She and I did (verbal/Scriptural) battle constantly. I pulled no punches with her at all. And I prayed. If a friend is willing to dialogue with you, know your facts about this movement and KNOW YOUR BIBLE! Believe me, if they are willing to listen, they cannot stand against the truth. It may take time, but don’t give up! The Lord is faithful and He wants them to be spiritually sound even more than you do.

    • Oh, hello! Thanks for the update. It is wonderful to hear she is actually speaking against it. Wow! How far she has come! See? proof again that God is pulling them out, out, out!

  41. my advice: if you see this stuff going on in a meeting decide before hand & be prepared to up & leave right there & then…… my experience has been that mostly this stuff occurs in a “ministry” session which often occurs at the end of a meeting…

    • According to Ern Baxter, William Branham had two spirits. One was the Spirit of God, one was not. At one point they were together and Branham pointed to a light bulb hanging from the ceiling and said, “The power I have can make that bulb move.”

      Yeah, this stuff has been around a long time. And they still adore Branham, a herietic’s heretic.

  42. Hi M’Kayla,

    I remember being so taken with Heidi Baker when I was first introduced to her. At some point, I went on the IRIS website actually thinking about doing eventual ministry work with them. I’m going to forward a portion of the on-line questionaire that they had at the time. It stopped me cold in my tracks. They are question 4 and 5.

    4. Health Information:
    o Are you currently on any Medication? for what?
    o Are you or any attending children on medication? allergic to medication?
    o Do you or any attending children have a history of depression, mental illness or
    psychiatric treatment?
    o Do you or any attending children have any physical impairments, handicaps or health conditions that require special attention?(including food allergies)
    o Blood type of each attending family member
    o Rate the health of each member of your family attending.

    5. Personal background:
    o Have you used any of the following substances? Alcohol, Tobacco,Soft drugs such as marijuana, Hard drugs such as cocaine, heroin or chemicals.
    o List any Addictions.
    o Please describe any psychiatric treatment received.
    o Please list any occult or cult practices.
    o Please list any heterosexual sin including pornography and promiscuity.
    o Please list any homosexual activity.
    o Please list any eating disorders.
    o Please list any compulsive behaviors.
    o Please describe any history of abuse (verbal, physical, emotional or sexual).

    As God was graciously bringing me out of all of the false teachings/delusions, I revisited the Heidi Baker site with many questions. I was reminded of this questionaire. First, there is no record in the Bible of such information being asked of any of God’s chosen. He already knows us. He knows our hearts and all our past sins (and every hair on our head for that matter). Second, anyone dishonest person would answer these questions dishonestly anyway. Liars lie…it is what they do. Third, it reminds me of a tactic used by cults…a sort of gross twisting of confession of sins used to manipulate and control people. Would you ever speak out against a ministry if you had entrusted them with such personal information about yourself or your children?

    I don’t know if this is something that you want to include in this discussion, but I would love to hear any feedback/thoughts anyone else may have on this. Thanks.

    • Hmm…good point you made there. I am also thinking this may be a step in protecting their organization. I wonder what any “yes” answers would render later on? More questions, refusal of participation? I’ve seen other organizations (I no longer refer to them as ministries) go in the same direction. In some instances I can see where they are protecting themselves, and children and are required to by law. Churches do the same, but I have yet to see one ask about specifics, mostly convictions, if I remember correctly. And true, the only way the could know for certain is to run a background, which requires fingerprinting and written permission.

      As to the health questions – I have posed this so many times. Why does a person who believes in absolute healing for every person, who teaches it, claims it, brags on the many who have been healed, need to ask this information. Does Iris employ standby medics with blood supply if a transfusion is needed?

      It all goes to prove Baker does not believe what she preaches to the masses.

  43. Pingback: The Golden Con Game « Wolf Tracks

  44. Shame Shame Shame on all of you who claim to know what it will look like when God shows up & heaven invades our physical realm! I could not even bear to read all the nay sayers comments on this page, as I felt such sadness well up inside immediately! What gives you the right to say you presume to know how God chooses to reveal Himself to us. His word says….in the last days….I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below. You think the Lord has given you this knowledge of what things are of God & what is false, this sounds like human arrogance to me. I prefer to allow the Lord to move as He wills & do NOT ever want to restrict Him from moving in my life as He desires! I have been set free from years of depression while attending such a meeting you say is all smoke & mirrors! I will pray for your blind eyes to be opened & your hearts filled with judgement will turn to repentance. I will spend my days filled with the joy of the Lord like I had only dreamed was possible, while you waste your time discounting the true genuine blessings of the Lord.

  45. Just one question for you Miki, the bible states in 2 Thess 2:9 that the wicked one will come all ” power and signs and lying wonders” , so how do you propose to discern between those , and the signs that I assume you now believe that are from God.

  46. Miki, thank you for sharing your heart. I too (& many others round here) have been in that same place you find yourself.. desperate for God – I would 100% love to see everyone worldwide healed, & the whole earth transformed with endless peace & wealth… its sounds sooo wonderful….

    please forgive me but from your post, it sounds as though you have categorised myself & others as “naysayers” can I clarify that thought.. & say that none of us who have come out of this “movement” are against God or the things of the Holy spirit, we have been in that place & know very well the deep hunger & desire for God to move as he wills.. I/we still have a deep desire for God to be revealed in fullness…however we must remember that God has revealed himself to us through Jesus… we need no other (revelation) & out of that desire & in our searching & pleading with him, been able to see through & perceive things that are not right before God with this movement…

    Ive personally posted loads on this & wont revisit that here, but please please take the time to at least read through & hear what people who have stood in your shoes have to say because we really have been there, done that & got the t-shirt.

    what we are “naysayers” against are the things that are clearly false & not a genuine move of God…. Ive certainly come to the place where I asked big big questions- like what exactly is a ‘move of God’ anyhow… you see I feel set up by leaders & powerful people in around my previous church environment to think & behave in certain ways… in order to proove that I/we was in the flow or the river or renewal… very apparently, those who did not manifest shaking – woo & whaaaing, falling down & continually being prophetic in any manner of “creative” way any of us could dream up- praying openly for the presecnce of God to show up in stronger & more & more outlandish ways.. & getting very ecstatic to the point of behaving drunk when anyone who had been to a place such as Bethel even touched you… or when people were healed etc etc.. or when gold dust showed up (which is never verified btw)… these were all signs indeed, as interpreted by our leaders that a person was now “in the river” – ‘in with the leadership” & now was acceptable enough to be trusted with the things of God…. & to promote what …..? well more of the same types of manifestations of course.. & then the penny dropped… that this has become all about the outward signs & if so where does that leave anyone in terms of what they believe about Christ & their standing/identity with him.. In fact where does that leave Jesus at all???

    here is the big question tho: Since when has the kingdom of God been about manifestations & signs…? remember what Jesus said, that it was an evil generation who sought a sign… why?? I believe because it actually undermines faith… a person who is full of faith, ultimately needs no sign, they have their heart conviction & response to it, daily… thats the walk!… they can survive in a body which doesnt work well, in prison, under persecution, torture, extreme hunger etc etc… in the full confidence that they are in christ…. he gives them the strength to do that.. & to stand for him & with him no matter what.

    I think that this river movement has missed the point big style,, because in seeking signs for our own ends, which make us feel good, reassured & blessed up we have all of us bought into a tangent of what Jesus taught & not the full weight of it … he came to bind the brokenhearted, set the captive free & proclaim the year of the lords favour… but what we are seeing is that when it comes to injustice, intolerance & oppression not only is this movement not really addressing that in society (because outwardly it seems only interested in giving prophetic words in endless abundance to its community) it is actually the perpetrator of it…… in my experience people remain bound, personal prophecy doesnt do much except make you feel good, not everyone is healed – although everyone is promised… & sometimes blamed if they are not…. & we have a whole generation who feel they are not good enough before God unless they demonstrate x & y in their lives….

    surely you can see that all of this in the melting pot,, leaves people wide open for deception, & fakery, frauds & being duped… how can this be.. then in a movement which loudly protests all these things are of God? doesnt seem it has the flavour of holiness about it… does it ? see if it was truly all from God there would not be one incidence — no not one where anyone could allege any falseness at all- it would not stand up… sadly thats not the case…

    now I dont want to undermine your healing or your experiences if you feel God has given those things to you great! but the God I know is far more interested in your heart & your response to living a holy life – than whether you feel you have had a great time in a meeting

    there is militant defence, of the things that this “movement” (which TBH are not discerned, just accepted) believes are of God… you are quite right to say who is anyone to decide what is of God & what is not… but my dear – that equally applies to you, biblically you are asked to test all things..

    all of us here want truth: when I see leaders in the uk,, tell wild exaggerations about gold dust, & unverified healings.. & make people seem unacceptable when they simply ask valid questions… actively defend manifestations as something & nothing & then on another day use these anecdotes as ultimate proof to back up anything they wish to say… promote the idea that heaven can touch earth now for a better world through the 7 mountains end time mandate strategy…. we must remember that some are receiving a large amount of kudos & money for this & in this context I would lovingly ask you: what does the word of God say?

  47. Dear Miki, you said: “Shame Shame Shame on all of you who claim to know what it will look like when God shows up & heaven invades our physical realm!”

    “The earth is the LORD’s, and everything in it, the world and all who live in it; for He founded it upon the seas and established it upon the waters.” (Psalm 24:1-2 NIV)

    God has no need to “invade” earth. It already is His. This includes the physical realm. When Jesus was born in Bethlehem, the angels didn’t cry out…”Glory, God has invaded earth!” They praised God and said, “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to men on whom His favor rests.” (Luke 2:14) They prayed a blessing of peace to all those who would believe in Jesus, and obey His teachings (those people on whom God’s favor rests). The kingdom of heaven lives in every true believer. It is manifest in a godly life that confesses Jesus as LORD, repents of sin, and bears fruit according to the Word of God in their life:

    “Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise–the fruit of lips that confess HIs name.” (Heb 13:15)

    “Peter replied, ‘Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off–for all whom the Lord our God will call.’ ” (Acts 2:38-39)

    “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control. Against such things there is no law.” (Gal 5:22)

    Dear Miki, I would ask you to actually watch the “glory cloud” clips above with the sound on and tell me what fruit you are witnessing. If this was truly God’s Holy Spirit, the fruit it brings about in the people would be entirely different. That is a room devoid of gentleness and self-control. I believe in signs and wonders and have witnessed first hand actual healing and miracles, all to the Glory of God and none other. What these true signs brought about was incredible reverence for God and His Word, a “down on your face” kind of repentance, and an incredible desire to study His Word, learn, and please Him.

    You said, “You think the Lord has given you this knowledge of what things are of God”

    I say this with absolute confindence in God and His Holy Word and the power of His Holy Spirit through the atoning blood of Jesus my Lord and King….He Has! How I rejoice in the knowledge of that. What a miracle! I, who cannot even begin to grasp my Holy Heavenly Father, have access through His Word and His Holy Spirit to have knowledge of what things are of God in this corrupt and dark world. The Bible tells me so!

    “Test everything. Hold on to the good. Avoid every kind of evil.” (1 Thes 5:21-22)

    “I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as His anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit–just as it has taught you, remain in Him.” (1 John 2:26-27)

    How do I remain in Jesus who is the Word of God made flesh? By remaining in His Word. That is the only place where you will ever truly remain free. All other paths lead to spiritual bondage. Miki, you have a choice set before you: You can choose to trust in God and His Word…read it, study it, pray about it and apply it….OR, follow men like Bill Johnson down a slippery slope of unbiblical spiritual excess which will ultimately leave you separated from God.

    I pray that God will bring you back to this blog so you can learn. I pray that He will keep you safely in His Word. BTW, you absolutely cannot restrict God’s movement in your life. You can grieve the Holy Spirit, and I think nothing grieves Him more than people who turn willingly from His Word. What man asked for God to send Jesus? Did you ask to be born? Did you ask to be saved? It is not of human will, but of an amazing work of God that these things happen. If men could stop God from moving in their lives, there would never be a judgment day. You have the will to choose, and I pray you choose rightly.

  48. M’Kayla, This was taken off the “burn movement” website this morning. There logo is “Burn 24-7…contend, worship, blaze.” That, in an of itself, would be enough to send a discerning Christian running for the hills.

    How to Burn
    Burns typically last between 24 and 100 hours with the goal of becoming 24-7-365. These times are divided into 2-hour shifts, which are filled by teams from the body of Christ in the region. These teams range from one person leading worship and prayer from a guitar, keyboard or other lead instrument, to full bands accompanied by prayer leaders. Artists and dancers join many sessions as well.There is a set focus, but there is not a set format. While well-known songs are sung, the creative, Presence-charged atmosphere in Burn gatherings creates space for the new Song of the Lord to flow out, and prophetic intercession to come forth. This is the heart of BURN 24-7.Many Worship and Prayer Leaders have never experienced leading in a gathering where there has already been many hours of momentum and breakthrough. In the Burn they experience dimensions in God they have never known in the context of a 30-minute worship service or an hour-long prayer meeting. It is a consecrated place to minister to God first and go vertical in our worship and prayer in the spirit of the Davidic Tabernacle (Amos 9 and Acts 15) and not being consumed with horizontally connecting with the audience.Burns are accompanied with an extraordinary freedom in the Spirit, yet there is a divine order to it all. Some lay on the floor, lost in God’s Presence, while others dance. As the Father’s heart is revealed, waves of deep intercession for the region and the nations will wash through the room, as well as waves of deep rest and joy. One person might experience all of these in one two-hour shift. In short, there is a lot of variety and diversity of expression in the Burn. To sign up to lead a two-hour shift, check out the Burn city nearest to you, and send an email to the director.
    FRIENDS OF BURN24-7
    • 24-7 Prayer
    • Bethel Church
    • Burn Wagon
    • Burning Ones
    • Fire and Fragrance
    • Fire On The Altar
    • International House of Prayer
    • Jesus Culture

    I remember hearing Heidi Baker talk about the “burn movement”, and it really bothered me. I never bothered to look into it any further. There is nothing biblical or holy about this. I’ll just let scripture speak to it:

    “Aaron’s sons Nadab and Abihu took their censers, put fire in them and added incense; and they offered unauthorized fire before the LORD, contrary to His command. So fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed them, and they died before the LORD.” (Lev 10:10-2 NIV)

    Then the fire of the LORD fell and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench. When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate (my note: face down) and cried, “The LORD—He is God! The LORD—He is God!” Then Elijah commanded them, “Seize the prophets of Baal. Don’t let anyone get away!” They seized them, and Elijah had them brought down to the Kishon Valley and slaughtered there. (1 Kings 18: 38-40….my note: per 1 Kings 18: 22 we know that the prophets of Baal numbered 450 people).

    “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will clear His threshing floor, gathering His wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” (Mat 3:11-12)

    “Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Mat 25:41)

    “Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, for our “God is a consuming fire.” (Heb 12: 28-29)

    “But the day of the LORD will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.” (2 Pet 3:10)

    Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. (Rev 20:14)

    And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 20:10)

    Those looking to burn 24-7 have no clue what they are really asking for. I pray that God will be merciful and deliver many people from this deception. This is where all the falsehood leads. It is horrible.

    • Hi. Thanks everyone for your comments! I appreciate the help!

      Yes I am more than familiar with this mess. I have to mention the Burning Man deep in the Nevada desert, an annual gathering of the Godless, the pagan, witchcraft, all sorts of sex – anything goes…a place so dry you have to bring your own water and food…and at the end of the event a huge structure of a man is burned. This is the fleshly end of people given over to their wild passions. What you mentioned is exactly the same, but in the spiritual sense and they have been given over to wild passions of the supernatural. They are blind. But we make no excuse, in the end they will suffer the same demise – burning man. This should scare anyone into some serious research!

      It’s all so avoidable – to anyone and everyone reading these words. If you think you have chosen to follow Christ, submit to Him, read the bible, be given to study and prayer, and ask God to open your eyes before it is too late. Christ warned His disciples “Take heed that no one deceives you” in Matthew 24:4, and His answer was a direct response to the disciples’ question in vs 3, “what will be the sign of your coming?” Again in Mark 13:5 is the same warning, and in vs 35-37 He warns us to WATCH!! What do you think a false Christ is going to look like, a demon? The world is full of them already! They are in our churches on our TV’s in our books, on the radio and the internet.They have taken over colleges and bible publishing companies. Yet, they go unseen, unnoticed to most of their followers. Why? Because people are more caught up in the “wanna feel good and be entertained” and they have traded their souls! Do you not know that there have been people set up just for this purpose? Do you think these false teachers and prophets truly care about you or God? Not one bit. They are rich and their god is their belly, and you have contributed to their cause – the blind leading the blind. One day there will be a separation between the true followers and the false ones, a judgement that will be final with no turning back, no second chances. And you will be sent from the presence of God because you chose your spiritual drunken party for the truth.

      Whoever thinks that yellow gold falling from the ceiling is real gold – do a google search. (Yes, this point has been made on my blog already.) Pure gold is clear, not yellow, which has been mixed with metal – tainted – from it’s pure form, if you will. So, the next obvious question would be to ask why God – the Creator of all things – would have tainted gold, rather than pure. Here’s another hint – why is it coming out of the venting, A/C system? The answers are out there, for anyone who wants to know the truth. Deceit is a great money maker.

      God has revealed Himself through Christ and through the bible. Anything NOT found there, is not of Him. This is how we know the difference and there is no getting around it. I have been through all of this personally. God, because of His great love, brought me out – Praise His Name – and I started the blog to warn others. Please have eyes to see.

  49. This is off topic just a bit, and I know M’Kayla has answered it before on this sight. For those who want to label us as judgmental, it is something to consider. For those who post on this sight, I hope it makes you smile.

    We have a small flock of ducks on our property. Last winter, a weasel dug into the duck pen and killed all but two of our ducks. Ducks are very gentle and have no real defense other than flight. They are a lot like sheep that way. My ducks couldn’t get away. They were trapped in that pen. All of our drakes (males) were killed. Those drakes got in the way to protect the ducks and were the first to be killed. Had they not done this, we would probably have lost all of the birds.

    Anyway, this female was gravely injured. We brought her into the house and cared for her for a few weeks; and, to our amazement, she rallied. Though she limped around the yard for months, she has now fully healed. She has become our warning signal in the yard. If anything is wrong, she starts just a quacking away. She is always on the watch. If another duck wanders off, you’ll find her in the yard just quacking and quacking. She is awesome!

    I think that’s what a lot of the posters on this blog are like. We were trapped in a “pen” of false teaching. When the weasel got in, we couldn’t simply fly away. So we were gravely injured. We know the pain of it, and we hope and pray to help others avoid it. Praise God, that He got us all through it!

    So now we quack away. It is a warning. I, for one, plan to keep quacking and quacking…not like those in the “Toronto barnyard”, but like one equipped with the Word of God…rebuking, correcting, encouraging. To those who find it offensive, I pray for you and accept that criticism like “water off a duck’s back.” I believe that’s what “turning the other cheek” is all about. Thank you, M’Kayla, for a platform to “quack”.

  50. I’m reading through this thread right now, and all I can say is that I recognize that particular song they are singing from my last YA group. :( they sung that particular one quite often, if I remember correctly. Oh dear. :(

    I left that particular group in August (after seeing materials from Bill Hybels and Eugene Peterson being sold there (I did warn them about it before I left) and have yet to be back there. My sister still goes when she’s back home though. :( Not good. I might go back there one more time, just to see if the material is still being sold, or if they took my warning to heart.

  51. ^ Just to see if those books are still being sold there, even after I told them about it. I wouldn’t even be going in on a Friday or Sunday (where they have services) but during a day of the week. If they did get rid of the material, it shows that they analyzed the material in these books and found them unbiblical, which means that they may be more willibg to hear the truth about Bethel and Willpw Creek. If they didn’t, it means that they are not willing to listen.

  52. I moved out of town soon after I let them know about it (attending a University out-of-town) so I was never able to check before I left.

  53. Pingback: WORD OF FAITH TEACHERS: ORIGINS & ERRORS OF THEIR TEACHING | Wings of the Wind

  54. Hey guys — it’s been a very long time since I commented on here. But there is a new development within the NAR movement that I hadn’t been aware of before. When I researched NAR/hyper-charismatic ministries in the past, it always seemed that the leaders thought that seminary education and degrees had no real value.

    It seems that that sentiment is changing — at least for some in the NAR. Several leaders have recently gotten (or are receiving) seminary degrees from mainline denominational seminaries.

    This past Sunday the student pastor of the United Methodist Church that I attend (it’s the church I grew up in) gave a sermon about John 11 (where Jesus raises Lazarus from the dead). The student pastor mentioned Heidi Baker, and said that she was becoming increasingly associated with his seminary (United Theological Seminary — one of the two United Methodist seminaries in Ohio).

    He said that she had been speaking at conferences at United, and that her husband received a doctorate degree in ministry from United. Upon further research I learned that Heidi spoke at United’s commencement ceremony in December 2013. I also found out that Randy Clark is also receiving a doctorate from United.

    This is a big deal — as these people seem to be worming their way into United Methodist seminaries (and another check on a website showed other NAR leaders getting degrees at other mainline denominational seminaries). The NAR leaders seem to be using these degrees to be seen as legitimate among mainline Christians.

    Is this a new plan? Invade mainline denominations and pull them into the NAR movement?

    I bet when Heidi spoke at United that she didn’t look quite as silly — or act drunk or make the weird noises and movements. She would have had to sound coherent….at least I would think so.

    I’m going to see if I can find any videos of her speaking at United and compare them with the other Heidi videos. If I had to guess, she’ll probably sound scholarly, emphasize scholarly topics, and emphasize her ministry to the poor and needy (in order to appeal to her audience). Those things would hook most people attending a United Methodist seminary.

    I do know that she has mentioned some of the miracles while speaking at United — as the student pastor was familiar with her raising the dead and healing people. But I’m guessing that she talked about these things slightly differently from how she normally does.

    I think she is trying to deceive mainline Christians now :(

  55. Ick.

    http://www.prweb.com/releases/2013/9/prweb11133708.htm

    Words like “impartation” and “anointed” (the way the hyper-charismatics use it) were never part of United Methodist vocabulary.

    http://www.united.edu/Randy-Clark-Scholars-Presenting-the-Gospel-as-Jesus-Intended-In-Love-Authority-and-Signs-and-Wonders.html

    Not surprisingly, Randy Clark left his mark on United Theological Seminary as well. He apparently founded the above group where people go out and practice signs and wonders :(

    https://globalawakening.com/news-general/401-dr-randy-clark-and-dr-tom-jones-graduate-from-united-theological-seminary

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