I love to write, to ponder, to hash things out, to dig into research and find answers to things that interest and bug me. I always have an opinion and so do you!
Having recently come out of “charismania“, I would like to share my experiences and what I have learned from them. Anyone who is interested in finding the truth is welcome and encouraged to join in. I did not come out of this alone. I had many “helpers”, other Christians with similar experiences who know and value the word of God above all else, who are willing to speak the truth. So, I too join their ranks to freely give what I have been given.
We will look at the various areas of false and extreme “Christian” teachings that many of us have been taught and have followed for some time and compare them to what the word of God has to say. 
You may be shocked as I was, to find that the teachings of many are not biblical, and from there you will find a dividing line, a choice to be made. Will you continue to follow what is false, what you know to be “safe” in its familiarity, will you be a follower of man, or will you risk all – your ministry, your reputation, your friendships, and one day maybe even your very life to follow Christ? These are becoming perilous, dangerous times to be called by His name.
You can read about the vision I had in 2002, shortly after the death of my 19 year old daughter, Jessica, entitled, His Hands that Held You. Bring tissues.
I have a little of a political slant so we will look at some of that too. And who knows what else will come of this adventure.
I moderate comments, so anything brash or too ugly or profane will not be allowed to post. Please respect the feelings of others, even in disagreement, knowing that God gives us the choice to live how we decide. It will be to Him that we will give an answer to later on. So, let’s play nicely with the other kids.
I welcome you all in this journey we already share. I hope you find peace and freedom that comes from above in knowing the real, the one and only Jesus Christ.
Make sure that the light you think you have is not actually darkness. Luke 11:35
m’kayla
Hello Mkayla
I want to thank you for sharing with me your Blog it might help me to write some things down, I sure need it these days….!
thank you again…
Hi Rena. I know this is a very hard time for you. Keep breathing and believing. You are not alone!
Hey Mkayla,
I know this is so shallow and not blog-worthy, but you look beautiful in your photo and it does bring the “Thinker” to mind. I have neglected my gift of writing for so long, it seems like a muscle which has atrophied. I hope to read more of your blog and be inspired to comment and post as well. I would love to find the false doctrines I have thought to be true… such as worm theology. I have a dear friend who got very caught up in the Kingdom Theology and I am not sure how well it treated her… but she like you is a digger and thinker. I just know that the demons around false doctrine and prophecy are so active that Paul, Peter and John warned about them. Please share some of your thoughts so I can compare. Truth is there, but the lie must be exposed to give me a jumping off point- you know? Thanks and much love and admiration, Shawn.
Shawn, how good it is to have you here!
I understand about the neglect of writing. While I was under the influence of “the demon” I lost interest in several things that were once important to me. I have found them slowly returning; one of which is the writing. I feel like I woke up from a very bad dream and am just shaking off the effects. Getting out was a horrendous struggle and I had just started coming out when I met you last year.
The false teaching of latter rain, kingdom now/dominionism, word of faith is what I was involved in, found in the (false) prophetic movement, healing room ministry, spiritual warfare, etc. The topics listed under Curses, Holy Spirit and Healing refute some of the false doctrine and claims interwoven in these “movements”. So, as you read through those writings you will see the claims of man against the truth given in the Bible. This is the same information that I e-mailed out, originally written in the document Spiritual Truths for the members of the prayer and healing rooms ministry I was involved with for 2 ½ years.
“The lie” comes from scripture, twisted, taken out of context to support what I believe are doctrines of demons. These teachings create a huge following, making their teachers, evangelists, apostles and prophets very famous and rich! And, they are very dangerous because they are so close to the truth, but they are not truth. We are deceived in thinking they “know” what we do not as though they have received some higher level of revelation. And yes, as you pointed out, there are many warnings in the NT about false teachers, prophets and false doctrine. Many are being deceived and can’t or won’t see it. My fear is they will be lost, following a messiah who is not the Christ, as they believe. Many believe we are experiencing the falling away.
2 Timothy 4:3-5
3 For a time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers: 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
I hope you find what you are looking for. If not, let me know. I will be adding topics regularly.
Hi Mkayla, I found you! Yeah! Love the post. You said it so well. As a writer I find myself at times becoming so overwhelmed with what is going on in all arenas, that it becomes hard to put my thoughts in words. Does that happen to you?
Anyway, I can not wait to see more of your ponderings and writings. You go girl. Love ya!
Shawn, I was just reading again your comment and found that I missed this point.
What is “worm theology”?
Hi Redeemed – I will make it harder than it has to be, as always. heheh
Don’t make it hard, just be you!
Hey thanks for your comment and prayer! John
I really enjoy your writing, especially on the emergent church. Keep up the work of the Lord!!!!!!
Thanks. I didn’t do much writing on the emergent church, but used the work and research of others who have much more insight and wisdom in that area. Either way, I am glad it touched you and I know those authors would feel the same. Praise to the Lord.
M’Kayla…. so glad you are blogging. I have seen some of your posts over at ETPW.
Is there a way I can email you to ask a specific question? Or feel free to email me with an email you use for such things.
Hello ruthsongs!
Just use the blog to ask whatever question you have. I moderate all comments before they get posted.
Thanks!
I appreciate the authentic narrative. Are you interested in dialogue/participation from someone who holds similar objections, but still is connected to various groups you have mentioned?
Essentially, I agree with a lot of your indicts. Yet I find the connections to the heresy, false spirits etc. lacking a scriptural or reasonable warrant. I am interested in discussion and have no “trolllike” agenda.
If you post this, I’ll take it as a yes.
DISCLAIMER: Jesus is Lord
It’s on.
I am so happy to have found this blog. I left my church very recently for reasons unrelated to doctrine- long story. Now I am coming to discover that what I have been learning for years may be false doctrine. There was always scripture in the messages that seemed to support what my pastor was saying, and I am loyal to a fault, so I never considerd that he may not have been hearing from God. I guess the Lord had to lead me out of the church through other circumstances before showing me the deception, or I probably never would have believed it.
Now that I am out, I feel like I’ve had to break away from a cult. I’ve struggled with fears that I am one of “the decieved” Jesus talked about (a common theme @ my old church) now that I am not in on the “new thing” that God is doing today. I know that is a lie, and I am saved by grace through the blood of Jesus, but after a lifetime of being told that I was a part of an elect body, it’s hard to shake those thoughts. I have lots to process, and although I thought I was “in the Word” a lot, in actuality I was reading more so-called Christian books than the bible itself. I am now reading the bible everyday and asking God to sort out the truth from the lies that I have ingested.
I have lots of questions, but I will ask just one for now. Bear with me as I set the scenario: Often in my old church, we would experience what was called a move of the Spirit- speaking in tongues, being slain in the spirit, words of knowledge, visions, etc. When someone would question it, citing no such activity could be found in the bible, often Isaiah 43:18-19 (“Forget the former things; do not dwell on the past. See, I am doing a new thing…) was be quoted. The message was that if you did not accept God’s “new thing” that you were operating in fear, and that you were preventing God from moving in your life. If that was rebutted by stating that in Isaiah God was speaking specifically to Isreal about their journey to restoration, they would say that we can apply those verses to our lives too, just like we do Jeremiah 29:11 and many of the Psalms. That sounded good to me, but now I see that using the Isaiah passage is a license to accept anything that happens as God’s “new thing” as long as it is deemed so by the leadership. And yes, I was told to “test the spirits” but with a loophole that large, how do you do that?
Oh dear, as I reread this, it seems a bit like a jumbled mess. Perhaps that’s an accurate reflection of my mind right now as I am rethinking everything I learned from my pastor of 20 years. I hope you can make sense of my question!
God bless you, and I will definitely be keeping up with this blog!
Hi Diane
, not because of a church or a movement, but because your name is written in the Lamb’s book of life. You are His. You are free, be at peace in the knowledge that the Lord is with you. Praise God you see the difference now!
You ARE of the elect, 1 Peter 2:9-10
If you go to my article, a trip in charismania you will see my response to someone else that I wrote just yesterday about this “new thing”. Yes, I too heard this time and again, how God is doing a “new thing”, God is doing “something new”. But we never get down to the business of what the new thing is, exactly, do we?
I love what you said about the scrip in Isaiah. Look – the new thing was to be the “restoration”. Jesus, being the new covenant IS the restoration! See? The “new thing” still points to Jesus = salvation. No guesswork there. And as far as I see it, we are to continue with what He taught, with His instructions until He comes back for us. And that will be the next new thing. But, until then, here we are.
There is simplicity in the truth, isn’t there? Not this stupid mystical mumbo jumbo that makes no sense to anyone!
You were right to question what they meant by that. And in doing so you were “testing the spirits”. Any teaching or experience should be proved valid by the Word. All prophets will lead us back to God, in the need for repentance because we are sinners, of our need for Jesus Christ. It should drive us back to the Word and give us a love for it, because in it are the words of truth, Jesus has the words of eternal life. It should give us a deeper love of God the Father in His gift of His Son Jesus Christ, it should stir within us a love for the brethren, of believers who are like minded in what the pure teaching of the Word tells us, and it should give us a love for the lost! If teaching or experiences do anything other than this, if they stir in us a desire to do that thing, have that experience, if they speak of our own greatness in our gifts, ability, ministry, authority, power, etc. that does not glorify God, then it is proved to be false and we should expose it and turn from it. Narrow is the gate! So often the truth and the false can run so close that it can be hard to determine. Most false teaching and false supernatural experiences, or experiences that are not from God seem like the real thing, but the word will expose them. Consider the prophets in the o.t. didn’t have that many as those we hear of today. And they all had basically the same message of repentance. Today, the message is about the person.
When they told you that to question these things was to operate in fear or that you were preventing God from doin’ somethin’ – these are classic lines used in manipulation that has become so prevalent. Forget that! We are told to test everything out, like the Bereans. But, the enemy, the demonic operating behind these teachings wants to prevent people from knowing the truth, so he shames them out of finding out. No one likes to be the outcast, right?
I also have found that most of these experiences and teachings are supported by scriptures in the o.t. Not that there is anything wrong it that, but what happened to the new covenant – the REAL new thing in Jesus? You won’t find Him much in their stories. Just something to consider.
Where is it anywhere in the bible that someone is actually slain, or falls backward when God is speaking to them? No where. Usually the go to their knees. Those who could not stand went face first and God or the angel would strengthen them to stand back up. What is the true meaning for speaking in tongues? See? There is an excess to the truth which is the same as a lie.
So see.. my dear? You already know more than what you thought you did. Ask me anything you need to. We can kick it around, hash it out. And I will be praying for you.
Thank you for your quick, and thorough, reply. I’ve been doing a little research and can’t believe how many books are on my shelf by authors that many say are involved in false movements (Myles Monroe, TD Jakes, Francis Frangipane, Richard Foster to name a few). I don’t want to just believe everything I read on the internet, but what I have seen makes sense. I wonder if there’s any truth in those books, as they seemed so “right” at the time; I wonder if everything I’ve been taught about faith and how to pray is false; I wonder how many people have read them because of a reccommendation from me; I wonder about a lot now.
The tone of this comment may make it sound like I am depressed or something, but actually, I am quite happy. I know the Lord will be with me on this journey, and I’m glad to be out from under bondages that I didn’t even know I was in.
Thank you so much for your prayers. Please also pray for my family (husband, mother, sister & her family). We all left our previous church at the same time, but I think I am the only one who has seen the error in the “scene” we left. I talked to my sister a little about it, and she listened, but I’m not sure she sees it quite yet. I’m most concered about my mom. She likes to read the latest books and watches many preachers/prophets on tv. She loves the Lord, and I know she wants to be in His truth, but this realization will be hard on her. We all feel kind of foolish for buying into lies that were told at our former chruch (it had to do with misuse of money) so this is going to be a real doozy. I guess that’s one issue I’m dealing with- feeling stupid for buying this stuff hook, line, and sinker. I am a smart person, and I never saw myself as a mindless sheep moving mindlessly with the flock, but as a person with lots of faith. Turns out I had faith in the wrong thing. I’m praying about when and how to share what I have discovered with with my family. It won’t be easy.
Thanks again for your encouragement. May God richly bless you!
Diane, sounds like you came out of word of faith/prosperity teaching – Monroe, Jakes, Frangipane. You are in good company. I didn’t realize how far I was in it, until I came out. There is a very nice story that I grabbed up from another blogger, if you need some encouragement – the one written by Edwards the Great. It’s about his family’s struggle with wof and what it took to come out of it. It’s very touching. His brother used to be a wof pastor, and you will find his link -Junker Jorge- on my blog roll. He helped me understand the wof connection from Ken Hagin who plagiarized writings from a new age mystic EW Kenyon. You can see how well it has caught on over time throughout the churches, as most of them have that in their root teachings. The article No Sweat, another I pulled, shows the connection between the occult, The Secret, wof, etc. It’s quite an eye-opener.
Sorry to say, but all the preachers on tv are bad news. I just had this conversation with my mom too. I’ve been talking to her since I first started to realize the deception and just the other day we got into the Kenyon-Hagin connection which led us to – - Kenneth Copeland, her fav! As far as your family, the Lord will show them the truth too.
R Foster is contemplative/emergent and not at all a Christian. I have a few writings here under that category, but not so much because I really didn’t get into that. Lighthouse Trails and Apprising, also on my blogroll are both great resources for that and I read them almost daily!
We are all dumb sheep! That’s why we need a Shepherd.
Don’t spend too much time feeling stupid. The latter rain movement has infiltrated far more churches and ministries than we can count. Most of us believe we are in the great falling away – 2 Thess 2:3, 11. There’s some info here that should help you and those on my blogroll and throughout the internet. When I first started reading and researching I did all day waaay into the night. It is fine to get help from others, but also important to check out what we say in the Word! The Holy Spirit really IS the best teacher.
Luke 22:31 – 32 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you , that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.
That’s what we do for each other! Welcome to my blog!
It’s ironic that my pastor used to warn against the “properity gospel” and “emergent church” but somehow we were wrapped up in it. We never used the official term “word of faith” but that sounds more accurate. As for the past 2 years, the church moved in the IHOP direction. That was the new “new thing” that God was doing. By the way, I’ve heard from my friends (via email) that there is a “fresh outpouring” going on at the prayer room in KC and that they are streaming it on the internet for free. They are so excited, and I am so heartsick.
And thanks for the reminder to return to the Word and let the Holy Spirit guide me. I was on the internet for the most part of yesterday (“waaay into the night”) and a good part of today, but I did spend time in the bible too
http://mkayla.wordpress.com/2009/06/18/four-current-movements/
This article is great for understanding the different movements, their claims and who is behind them. I found it on Moriel way back when and have referred to it many times.
I’ve been trying to balance my bible time with research time. Sometimes I get on a roll reading the various blogs and sites about false teachings that are rampant today. It’s mind-blowing! My continual prayer is that God will show me His truth (hence the bible time
). I had a thought today, and I think it’s a good one, so I’m going to share it. I felt some comfort/confirmation that my pastor was in the right because he consistently pointed out other fasle teachings in the Church today, and warned us to beware and quoted the scriptures about blindness, and the great falling away, even among the elect etc. That meant he was on the look out, and I was relieved. My former church was mostly into the Kingdom Now/Dominion/Latter Rain theology, so my pastor had a big problem with the Emergent Church movement teachings. (Rick Warren, Rob Bell, et al) I easliy slipped into a “see, they’re wrong, we’re right” mindset. {I’m sure they thought the same of us, lol.} It never dawned on me that we might *both* be scripturally off-base! It sounds so simple now, but with a convenient scapegoat, I was distracted from the truth. I can see this distraction as one of the tools Satan is using to keep the well-intentioned steeped into the particular false doctorines they’re caught up in.
One line from a classic hymn has been reverberating in my mind over the past week: ‘Twas blind, but now I see!
Thank you, Lord for your amazing grace!
Diane,
I know that roll…I can’t seem to get off of it. You are interested in the truth and the Lord will show you. He is faithful and He wants us to know Him and His ways. I remember all of that reading I did in the first week or so, asking, “am I in that?, do I believe that?, is my church in that? and all the hoping that I wasn’t, but…I was. This is why I like to expose teaching and teachers because it was the most helpful to me to understand.
Funny the comment about the emergent church since they think they have uncovered the “forgotten ways”. On the other hand, charismania is all about gaining the “hidden knowledge”. HA!
Blessings and freedom to you my friend!
I was reading in Psalms today, and although this verse is specifically about flatterers, it reminded me that when we think we can “speak things into existence” we put ourselves on the same level as God, the only one who has the ability to create, and then we boast “who is lord over us?”
Psalm 12:4 Who have said, “With our tongue we will prevail; Our lips are our own; who is lord over us?”
I’m so thankful for all that God is showing me! Thanks for your blog, M’Kayla. Even though I don’t comment often, I stop by everyday. I enjoy reading your posts and the comments that you and others make. Keep up the great work!
Thanks for your encouragement Diane.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hi M’Kayla. I wanted to post something on another thread, but I need to embed a picture/graphic for my comment to make sense. I don’t seem to be able to do that…am I missing something? If this site doesn’t allow for that, do you have an email inbox for this type of submission so you can review it? Just wondering.
Still visiting everyday. Keep on keeping on
Go ahead and submit your comment and then send the graphic to me in an e-mail. I’ll see if I can get them to go together. I don’t think wp gives an option for that in the comments like it does in the posting.
I have a request
http://thegreycoats.wordpress.com/
Thanks Jarrod.
Mkayla
Just wanted to says thanks and to encourage you for your efforts on this blog.I realise it may seem like a thankless and sometimes mindless task to do what you do ,but i have been encouraged and heartened many times by engaging on this site.In a way, this has become my ” church”, we still gather around His Word and come away with a new understanding and love for our wonderful Saviour.
God bless you and keep you in His care.
Thank you my friend – deeply.
M’kayla:
Just want to echo Ray’s thanks and encouragement to you for all of the hard work and time you put into this blog. We’re all better informed, encouraged and enlightened as a result.
Didn’t know where to post the following, so thought here was the best place.
I’ve found the following blogs to be helpful, perhaps you’ll want to add them to the Blogroll.
* Beyond Grace
http://beyondgrace.blogspot.com/
In addition to great, but infrequent blogposts, the Reading Room resources (on the right-hand side of the page) offer archive documents including book-length manuscripts…many broken links in the Reading Room, but I’ve found the IHOP articles particularly helpful.
The “Sound Doctrine” links are broken, but they’re the titles to Assembly of God position papers which can be accessed at
http://www.ag.org/top/Beliefs/position_papers/
* Speaking of IHOP, Bob DeWaay at Critical Issues Commentary has several articles:
Mike Bickle and International House of Prayer: Latter Rain Redivivus
http://www.cicministry.org/commentary/issue107.htm
Mike Bickle’s Romantic Jesus: IHOP’s Bridal Paradigm
http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue107b.
Any topic can be entered into the CIC site to search both articles and radio broadcasts.
* P.J. Miller’s Sola Dei Gloria blog just posted 3 great excerpts from War on the Saints by Jessie Penn Lewis, titled “Deception” Parts 1,2 & 3
http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/
* Slaughter of the Sheep
http://slaughteringthesheep.wordpress.com/
* Coffee Talk with Java
http://javanut61.wordpress.com/
Oops!
The Sola Dei Gloria posts were titled “Deceived” Parts 1,2 &3
Thank you so much for your thoughtfulness! Hmm..most of these sites I go to often. I think Slaughtering and Coffee Talk are the same blogger person.
I’ve read a lot of Bob DeWaay’s writings, some just recently too. He’s very good at what he does!
I just want to add that the radio show archives at Critical Issues Commentary are also an excellent resource. As a person who came out of a church that was getting deep into the IHOP movement, the 3 part series called “Mike Bickle and the International House of Prayer” was extremely helpful. Outside of the rotten roots at IHOP, it’s difficult to nail down the specifics of what’s wrong there. The statement from their webpage sounds ok, which makes it hard to talk to others who believe they are godly and not false. Bob DeWaay’s methodical deconstruction of thier practices brings much clarity to these muddy waters.
There at lots of other titles of the radio archives that catch my interest, and I can’t wait to hear more. They are about 30 minutes long, so I’ve listened while doing housework and once even downloaded to a CD to play while on a commute.
Keep up the good work M’Kayla!
Ditto thank you’s to M’Kayla. Some of your recent posts are just the thing I needed to point some friends to. You have compiled the information into one place and it really helps anyone seeking the truth about current controversial happenings in charismatic circles.
Norcal, thanks for all the information you have sent. I will take a look at “How to Discern…” as soon as I can. It looks like I have done some writing on this under different headings, especially early on.
Oh, did you mean a blog entry written by YOU?
You be blessed too!
Sorry, only have time to catch up with recent posts and comments, though I’ve been coming to this site for months, probably didn’t get all/most of your early entries.
If I get caught up getting my notes out on time to our small group (which has been a problem), maybe I’ll surprise you one day!
Anyway…searching the CIC site this morning, I sorted by topics rather than typing in by “key words” and found the following article by Bob DeWaay that correlates well to the “How to Discern” sermon.
Title: “Revival, The Cross and The Narrow Gate”
http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue42.htm
Key thesis: Christ promised that false prophets and false signs and wonders would characterized the end times. Paul predicted a great apostasy. However, God has done signs and wonders to confirm His word in the past and He can do so today if He so wills. So, how are we to distinguish the true from the false?
The acid test is the content of the message preached.
At least the following must be true: all teaching must be Biblical and must clearly define the uniqueness of the person of Christ. This must include the cross both the historical facts of the death burial and resurrection of Christ as a substitutionary atonement and that saving faith in Christ includes embracing the implications of the cross in one’s own life. If this type of preaching and teaching is consistently practiced, we can be sure that God will use it to call forth His people out of the fallen world and into true relationship with Himself. This is the nature of the narrow gate and narrow path.
If, however, a claimed revival has anything and everything else: hype, excitement, signs and wonders, masses of followers, testimony of people changing their behavior, or whatever else might attend such a revival, even if otherwise praiseworthy, such a revival has no validity if the message of the cross is absent.
Jesus saw as a temptation from Satan the popularity that came from the multitudes who were willing to follow Him as long as he said nothing about the cross. Thus He rebuked Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.” (Mark 8:33b). Why? Peter had rebuked Jesus for saying that He “must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.” (Mark 8:31b).
The cross is what narrows the group down to the remnant of faith. That is why it is a Satanic temptation to neglect its preaching or relegate it to something people may find out about later if they bother to enquire.
Jesus not only asserted the He must suffer on the cross for the sins of the world, but He pressed the implications home to all who claimed to want to follow him: “And He summoned the multitude with His disciples, and said to them, If anyone wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.’” (Mark 8:34).
Is it any surprise that in our day where “revival” means revelry and laughter, self love, prosperity, popularity, and many grandiose claims, that the masses are attracted. Absent the cross it is merely end times deception.
This is one of the best articles I have read!
thanks again. (still reading)
My comment about previous writings was made because the similarities in the scrips you put up regarding the Holy Spirit and the manifestations – gold dust, etc., in light of unbiblical teaching, current revivals, etc. Those deceived have no clue who the Holy Spirit truly is, or how He operates in the life of a believer. They also do not understand biblical signs and wonders which have nothing to do with gems, gold dust or oil, etc. Just some research I did in leaving the healing rooms and the Vineyard Church and I am still amazed when I hear these same things repeated back to me. It does give me a sense of peace.
You’ve given me lots to look at.
I just listened to that sermon. It is quite good and I will be using it here as I know many need to hear this.
Norcal, Reading your post i was reminded how our LORD Jesus had His own ‘revival’ of sorts : multitudes flocked to Him. And then He ‘spoiled the party’ by saying, Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you. Then the ‘revival’ was over, the multitudes walked away, and only His close disciples stayed with Him from then on. And Jesus didn’t run after them saying, Come back!
And His was a REAL ‘revival’, as far as the signs and wonders were of God. Still, only a few were willing to become His disciples. It’s the same now.
Ian:
EXACTLY! You nailed it…John 6:62: “From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.”
Guess Jesus hadn’t performed enough SLSW (Strategic Level Spiritual Warfare)…sorry, couldn’t resist.
But when I read in the Scriptures that neither Jesus nor Paul ever “took a city for Christ”, I marvel at the audacity of the Dominionist/ 7 Mountain / Latter Rain proponents that preach and think that not only cities but whole nations will be “taken for Christ”.
You’re a wealth of Holy Spirit-inspired wisdom. I love your ability to get to the point, state a pithy truth, and always so succinctly.
And even fewer stayed with Him through the crucifixion.
Mkayla
Just read your post re death in your family, please be assured that i will be praying for you and your husband for this situation.May Gods comfort be with you both.
mkayla, I have been researching latter rain theology and drunk in the spirit after witnessing strange behavior in our youth at a retreat meeting. It disturbed me to hear my nephew brag about being stoned in the spirit. I have voiced my concerns with my pastor and shared that I did not want our church to be involved with the church in Redding. I have been unable to bring light to this great deception that 2 of our local churches seem to be falling for. Are any complete churches coming out of this? I love my brothers and sisters and want this nonsense to leave my region. any strategies would be appreciated. P.S. please pray for us!
Hi Mkayla
Please help me, I have books from many of the people in the article from Moriel must I get rid of them?
Esther, Pray about that. If you are being taught false doctrine, why keep them, read them? But that is something the Lord will show you.
I believe we need more bible reading and much less book reading.
Blessings
Brian, I am sorry to know that about your church. Most of the stories here are of others approaching the pastor with the truth, but end up leaving. I don’t know of any entire church coming out as of yet. We can only pray and speak the truth!
hey, just wanna say thanks for the good work you’re doing here. as of like, two weeks ago i was getting ready to apply to IHOP’s forunner music school but for some reason started doing more research on the place over the internet. i’ve been heavily involved on a daily basis in their teachings, worship, and lifestyle. i also started listening to Bethel’s teachings and worship about a year ago. but God is so good and about two days ago has completely taken the veil off my eyes. now, quite honestly, i’m a little confused and saddened since i’ve put my heart and soul in these movements for years now. i don’t know how i was so blind.
God bless you. He is good.
oh, and i wrote a blog post based on what my own research has come up with in the last two days. you can find it at http://www.myrandomthoughts09.blogspot.com
Wonderful testimony to hear from you Steph! As I was reading your blog I was struck again by the realization that these movements which seem separate are coming together as one big religion.
Oh, I am glad you are out of it now. Our Lord is forgiving and will restore you to His truth.
@ M’kayla: I apologize for the length of this post. I don’t mean to hijack the thread.
@ Steph:
Wasn’t sure whether to post this only on your blog or here also, but figured that M’kayla would appreciate the extra material to read in her spare (ha!) time.
** Re: M’kayla’s statement above “movements which seem separate are coming together as one big religion”…
The article “Neutralization in the Church” by Dr. Gregory Reid (linked below) has articulated the conclusion I’ve been coming to for several months: that while at first glance Rick Warren, Rob Bell, Brian McLaren, the Emergent crowd, C. Peter Wagner, Chuch Pierce, Rick Joyner and the NAR (New Apostolic Reformation)/Dominionist apostolic/prophetic crew all seem to be strange bedfellows, the logical outcomes of their belief systems leads them to be unified at the end, and not in a good way.
* Rick Warren’s global P.E.A.C.E. plan makes the gospel subordinate to mobilizing billions (with a “b”) on the planet (Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, others) to achieve “social-gospel” type goals: clean water, schools, eradicating poverty, etc.
* Rob Bell, Brian McLaren and the Emergent crowd do away with the concepts of “heavenly hope” and a “literal hell”, and instead seek to create “the Kingdom of God on earth”/”heaven on earth”, primarily through acts of justice, green, etc. Furthermore, it’s well documented that one of the consistent results of contemplative prayer (popularized by the Emergent Crowd) is that it moves the practitioner away from the orthodoxy of the gospel and toward more of a “unity”/all paths to God mindset, even toward pantheism and panentheism. Apprising Ministries, Christian Research Service, Lighthouse Trails Research, and Slice of Laodicea, ReformedNazarene blogs have plenty of documentation on that.
* Next, there’s the influx of contemplative/new spirituality within the apostolic/prophetic/charismatic movements: IHOP/Mike Bickle promotes it, the wackiness of John Crowder/Benjamin Dunn/Red Letter Ministries is a result of heavy immersion into contemplative spirituality and the “desert fathers”. One example is that Red Letter Ministries even uses The Book of Enoch by Enoch as part of their school of the supernatural curriculum. Jim Goll (NAR) wrote the book that’s been the handbook for the introduction of contemplative into the apostolic/prophetic movement, “The Lost Art of Practicing His Presence”. The book has heavily influenced Crowder and even the Bethel Church, Redding, CA followers.
* Furthermore, the wikipedia entry for Latter Rain Movement states, “a major theme of the Latter Rain was(is) ‘unity’ among the believers in the church service, the geographic region and at large. They taught (and still do) that God saw the Church organized not into denominations but along geographical lines as in the book of Acts — one Church but in different locations. They expected (and still expect) that in the coming last days, the various Christian denominations would dissolve, and the true church would coalesce into city wide churches under the leadership of the newly-restored apostles and prophets.”
Paul Cain’s and Francis Frangipane’s similar comments about “unity” can be found here: http://www.intotruth.org/pk/pkmm3.html
In short, in much of the apostolic/prophetic movement, doctrinal differences are being set aside in order to tear down denominational walls for the sake of demonstrating what is being called Biblical unity. My own pastor (part of a Latter Rain believing organization) — between his two altar calls last week — laid the groundwork for the above and said that God had spoken to him about “a unity that’s coming to the Body of Christ in the city, county, state, and more where ‘minor’ differences such as women in the pulpit, etc, would be set aside for the sake of unity”. And the crowed clapped and cheered.
* When C. Peter Wagner first proposed the “New Apostolic Reformation”, his initial term for the movement wasn’t “NAR”, rather, it was “post-denominational”.
* C. Peter Wagner and Rick Warren were part of the same church growth seminary program at the same time at Fuller Seminar.
* Last but not least, the “Kingdom Now/Dominionist/Latter Rain” beliefs in much of the charismatic church that emphasize the Church (or Bride of Christ) as overcoming and victorious on earth coming into “perfection” and “full stature” and culminating in the Second Coming of Jesus Christ AFTER the earth has been subdued (people groups, nations, governments, etc) and the millennium is over (having been brought to pass by their efforts) require significant “unity” to accomplish.
* We can’t fail to mention Rick Joyner being a member of the Knights of Malta, St. John’s Order, sworn to protect the pope even unto death. (Roman Catholic connection)
Two articles from Gregory Reid, written out of passion and concern:
* Neutralization of the Church…points 1 – 3 speak to how the Emerging and New Spirituality (Occult and New Age influences) are infiltrating the church; point 4 addresses how the emphasis on prophetic and signs/wonders from the Pentecostal/Charismatic will be, in Reid’s opinion, a source of deception and damage to the church.
“The Neutralization of the Church in Preparation for the Coming of the Antichrist”
http://www.gregoryreid.com/id197.htm
* Article, “Trojan Horse”…refers to the social gospel, and you’ll find the material under the heading “Last Days” to include tenets of Latter Rain theology, the use of replacement theology, etc.
http://www.gregoryreid.com/id180.htm
* Finally, my research over the past months has taken me – often inadvertently – to conspiracy theory websites of all stripes. By nature, I’m a glass half full type of person and not a fan of conspiracy theories, and I generally don’t stay, go back to, or hang around those type of sites. Below I’m going to link to an article merely because a few paragraphs in it relate to the above. I hesitate to link because I don’t want to get flamed by commenters. I, in no way, shape, or form endorse all of the content on this site.
That said, in the linked article titled, “The Mother of All Conspiracies”, read the pages below the subheading titled, “The Real Reason Why the Antichrist Will Kill Christians” down to the subheading “A Massive World-Wide Depression is Coming”…posits a scenario where Muslims, followers of new spirituality, and Dominionists will converge and unite to purge nonconformists, including/especially Christians.
http://www.arkhaven.org/conspiracy.htm
Other resources
* At http://www.concernednazarenes.org you can request a free Emerging Church DVD.
Ray Yungen, Joanna Michaelsen, Mike Oppenheimer of Let Us Reason ministries, and Sandy Simpson of Deception in the Church all speak on it. It addresses the inroads of new spirituality into the Evangelical church and Western society as a whole. Very eye-opening. I’ve played it for our small group and have passed out many copies.
Norcal, “I’ve played it for our small group and have passed out many copies.”
Are you referring to the DVD by Concerned Nazarenes?
i agree with most of what’s in the article. i really question whether most of those involved in the emerging church would ever betray nonconforming Christians, though.. cause there’s a lot of people in those movements who definitely are Christians, they’re just being a little deceived at the moment.
Norcal, this is another amazing confirmation to me– I just said this on the Sadparent thread! God wants this heard, what you are saying! It really is the Spirit seeking to warn the church, what Satan is engineering through the guise of all these various movements, not just Charismania.
I just posted,on February 3 a new Shrewshape E-mail, “TOP SECRET”, that has been the most difficult and most hindered of all of them to write–one draft, ready to publish, literally was lost in cyberspace when I hit “save draft” at the exact moment WordPress was doing autosave and it was lost forever. I had to rewrite it from a very old draft, and from memory.
This theme of all the various movements of the church being merged into one the new Shrewshape subject. I mention Fuller, dominionism, Contemplative Prayer, IHOP, even Rick Joyner and the Knights of Malta! I did forget Rick Warren, but am going to put America’s Pastor and his peace plan in there right now, so thanks for the reminder! This has been so encouraging to my faith. Thank you, Lord!
Oh God, that you would open up more blind eyes, like those of Steph! Thank you for encouraging us, that you do open them up, even those like Steph, who seem so committed these ministries, such as IHOP. How faith-building you are, Lord, at just the right time you come in with these good testimonies! Open up more eyes, Lord, through all this blog chatter, and all the prayers, all the crying out that goes on, for our dear loved ones still stuck in these destructive movements! For your Name’s sake, Lord! Save them, O God!
I am sorry, I was so excited! I hope that all makes sense. I am off to do another edit.
Yes
What’s this? A one word response from norcal. imagine. heheh
It’s 2010; therefore, behold a “new thing”!
@ Karen:
Absolutely an amazing confirmation,so many of the same details that God was revealing to you!
I’ve only been to your site once, will have to visit again to check out “TOP SECRET”. I’ve had to limit the number of blogs I read and participate in. You’re a tremendously gifted and talented writer! I absolutely loved “Letter to Bill Johnson from a Child”…saw it on Redeemed Hippies blog, but didn’t know who had authored it.
Another similarity…I nearly lost the above post in cyberspace…almost had to reconstruct it until it showed up in M’kayla’s spam folder!
I wrote it stream of consciousness, first draft. So, just to mess up your edits, here’s a bit more material:
* Brandon Barthrop is the principal at Red Letter Ministries, using the Book of Enoch as a teaching tool
* Don’t forget Lou Engle/Bob Jones/Mike Bickle/Todd Bentley all talking about the “New Breed” and Joel’s Army. Lou Engle has described visions of youth in “military fatigues” and of course, martyrdom, as part of the anti-abortion, anti-gay challenges
* Chuck Colson…”Catholics and Evangelicals Together”
* Christianity Today writes of evangelicals “Returning to Rome”
* “Catholics Come Home” is a new “seeker sensitive” push for Catholics
* Obviously, the Manhattan Declaration is highly ecumenical
* John Crowder (contemplative prayer/desert father devotee) almost always makes the “sign of the cross” at the end of his prayers…talks about those “drunken friars of old”
* Bentley’s claims that “soaking prayer” (a charismatic spin on contemplative prayer) have given him more revelation knowledge than reading 50 chapters of Scripture
* Emergent ideas/new spirituality practices making huge inroads into the Nazarenes and Southern Baptists.
Particularly scary when Leonard Sweet (Emergent) writes things in his book Quantum Spirituality like, “In his book Quantum spirituality “ One can be a faithful disciple of Jesus Christ without denying the flickers of the sacred in followers of Yahweh, or Kali, or Krishna. A globalization of evangelism “in connection” with others, and a globally “in-formed” gospel, is capable of talking across the fence with Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh, Muslim–people from other so called “new” religious traditions (“new” only to us)–without assumption of superiority and power. (p.130 underline mine)
* Even more ominous are some of Brian McLaren’s quotes, “…many Hindus are willing to consider Jesus as a legitimate manifestation of the divine… many Buddhists see Jesus as one of humanity’s most enlightened people…. A shared reappraisal of Jesus’ message could provide a unique space or common ground for urgently needed religious dialogue—and it doesn’t seem an exaggeration to say that the future of our planet may depend on such dialogue. This reappraisal of Jesus’ message may be the only project capable of saving a number of religions.” (Brian McLaren, The Secret Message of Jesus: Uncovering the Truth that could change everything, page 7.)
“God is calling everyone to be part of His “dream for our world coming true,” a dream that will be fulfilled when everyone and everything in the entire universe will become the kingdom of God (pp. 91, 104, 191, 193, 194, 210, 234).
McLaren wants us all to be open to change. That belief in God is enough, absurdo reducto – the goal is to have a generic belief that all can accept and unite with. Universalism.
* There’s enough evidence from current and former practitioners of contemplative prayer that it leads to pantheism and/or panentheism with an attitude of universalism as a result.
The message of the cross and the exclusivity of Jesus being “the Way, the Truth, and the Life” will undoubtedly be an offense to the growing community of universalists…the “superiority” that Sweet refers to above.
* Universalism was a major theme in the book, The Shack. Unbelievable how that book is/was embraced by evangelical Christians.
* The Rethink Conference was co-hosted by Erwin Mc Manus and Robert Schuller where emergent church leaders and others congregated together. Yes, Bible liberals do have unity. The Rethink Conference had speakers: Gary Smalley, Chuck Colson, Henry Cloud, and Kay Warren, along with Larry King, Former President George Bush Sr., Rupert Murdoch of Fox.
Their message is the paradigm shift is now underway. Robert Schuller who promotes religious syncretism wrote:
“Move into mighty moods of meditation. Draw energy from centers of sacred solitude, serenity, and silence…. Find yourself coming alive in the garden of prayer called meditation…. Yes, the “New Agers” have grabbed hold of meditation…. Hey, Christian! Hear me! Let’s not give up the glorious, God-given gift of meditation by turning it over to those outside our faith” (Prayer: My Soul’s Adventure with God, pp. 141, 151)
If others can practice this meditation then this type of meditation is cannot be Christian in fact it will change you, it will synthesize you into the New Age movement!
As usual, I’ve written far too much for one comment. M’kayla, pls forgive me.
@ Karen:
Several more for Shrewshape:
* “Biggie”: Bill Hybel’s 2009 Leadership Conference at Willow Creek featured both Bono and Tony Blair among the speakers. Tony Blair recently converted to Catholicism. Rick Warren is on the board of the Tony Blair Faith Foundation, along with a Zen Buddhist, a Hindu, an Anglican, a rabbi and others. One of the goals of the Foundation is to “heal the divisiveness in the world”. Blair states, “God’s Spirit moves through us and the world at a pace that can never be constricted by any one religious paradigm. Be very wary of people who think theirs is the only way.”
http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs019/1101818841456/archive/1102660194714.html
* A few years ago, the results of a survey that Hybels commissioned showed the “seeker sensitive” premises to have failed. They replaced that with a lot of Emergent speakers, books and materials. A theme of one of their recent conferences was “The Culture is Changing, Are You?”
* Dr. James Dobson and Tony Parker, Family Research Council stood and prayed with Lou Engle and Mike Bickle at The Call, San Diego before the 2008 election.
* Rick Warren did his D.MIN. doctoral dissertation on his church growth ideas in 1993 under C. Peter Wagner at Fuller Seminary. “[Robert Schuller] had a profound influence on Rick,” Kay [Warren] says. “We were captivated by his positive appeal to nonbelievers. I never looked back.” Warren frequently associates with new age sympathizers like Ken Blanchard and new ager/emergent author Leonard Sweet.
* Speakers at the Azusa Street Centennial in 2006: Rick Warren, Kenneth and Gloria Copeland, Jerry Savelle, Creflo Dollar, Bill Hamon, Fred Price, Jack Hayford, Benny Hinn, T.D.Jakes, David Yonggi Cho, Paula White, Brian Houston (Hillsongs), Judy Jacobs, Rod Parsley, Marvin Winans, and Reinhard Bonnke.
Norcal,
Thanks for the topics to pursue. It is exhausting, all this heresy! I had to take a break. I could not even watch the Todd Bentley rebuke until today, couldn’t stomach it. Now, it has heartened me that God is raising up leaders to speak out boldly; something I have been praying for since the beginning.
You have definitely given me food for thought. I have been aware of all those guys for some time, and we’ll see how they fit into all the nefarious plotting. John Crowder has been in my sights for some time–and he is probably next. But quite frankly, I am just in a period of great mourning and grief, this stuff is breaking my heart. That’s poem writing time for me–very cathartic.
So thanks for the heads up! It’s beautiful here, time for a walk on the beach with the dog.
Karen, I so understand! All the heresy is wearing!
Have fun at the beach. I sooo miss it!
Stevens kid – Discernment is NOT a gift from God. Discernment is the ability to judge right doctrine from wrong according to the bible. Matthew 18 has absolutely nothing to do with what you claim it does and has no bearing on this conversation. I don’t have to know a person to be able to determine if the teaching is biblical or not. I only need to COMPARE it to the word of God. Besides, if you had read anything about me you would know that I have first had experience and knowlege of the teachings in word of faith – health – wealth – prosperity doctrines and the false prophetic – supernatural movements!!!
Hi M’Kayla, I posted over at You Are All Brothers about things I was taught in charismania regarding the prophetic. I’m curious to know if you were also taught that 1. God is always talking (which lead to the idea that we can then ‘get a word’ whenever we want) and 2. that He talks to us in a voice that sounds like us……?
Also, somewhat related, that there is a ‘blueprint’ for our lives – which we must discover. Do you know what scripture is used for that idea?
Hope you are doing well.
Hi Ruth. I am well.
Thanks!!
Yes, I was taught quite a bit on hearing the voice of God, from John Paul Jackson and also the Vineyard I attended had their own training. Of course those I listened to – Cindy Jacobs, Bob Jones, – that gang- AND the healing rooms – all taught pretty much the same thing. I never heard of the blueprint for life, but I have heard that dreams can be interpreted for a similar outcome. Who teaches the blueprint? Scripture, how about Jeremiah 29:11 I know the plans I have for you…
And God uses things that are familiar to us – a song on a radio, a phrase, color, etc. Everything has a purpose in the prophetic. So, pretty soon, we get signs and words all over the place as “god” is confirming. None of this is true of course! The need for the next word becomes an addiction. People caught up in this false prophetic come to the place they can’t even wiggle without that next word!
Gonna chime in here. We were taught (KCF-early IHOP days) that the Lord would speak to us in an easily recognizable voice, like a parent’s or spouse’s voice. I can’t remember if it was when John Paul Jackson lived here at the time – but he did teach a group of hand selected individuals how to do dream interpretation – and there was a book floating around that told what colors and numbers meant. We began scratching our heads and wondering where the bible described this color/number thingy and decided it might be bogus. If we’d only known . . .
Hi Julie.
IF only we had known! I know that afterthefact thing sooo well too!
Ugh.
And to think the answers were right there under our noses in the bible!
Hi Mkayla, there’s a gentleman defending Curry Blake over at Signposts – is there anything you can add to the conversation?
http://signposts02.wordpress.com/2010/03/21/john-g-junior-lake-a-joke/#comment-10011
Hi. I was over there. It seems to be at a point of contention. Once the truth is told, there isn’t a point to argue. People are either going to believe it or they aren’t. I see this person is pretty supportive of C Blake.
I can’t speak for Curry Blake, only for what I learned under Cal Pierce. Anyone supporting or teaching healing is for everyone, that it is God’s will, NAR, dominionism, word of faith should be avoided. If you are asking about specifics from my experience I will be happy to help. I will also say that Pierce and Lake had some kind of connection and Pierce often spoke of the same healing angel making an appearance. I will have to dig out the teaching notes for anything specific, but Pierce is how I learned of Lake. Mantles, anointings….none of it has a part in Christianity, its all about the person, elitism and twisted doctrine.
I have been reading your website and blogs and have found them MORE than interesting…I agree with you on so many many things and have..”been there, done that” and would love to receive your email news letters and blog.
May God continue to use you mightily as you “expose” the enemy and his deceptions. Blessings, Joy
HI Joy.
I don’t send out newsletters but you can subscribe to the blog and will be notified through your e-mail when I add articles.
Thanks!
Hi M’Kayla, I’ve been a Christian for 25 years and am only now finding all this stuff; i.e. your blog and others. I recently took part in a conference in Israel that was hosted by a house of prayer there. Some things did not “sit well” with me, such as teachings on the “Joshua Generation” and declaring that “this is the last generation!” When I came home, I prayed that I would know Him and His Word and I think that God really led me to pray that prayer because since that time I’ve found so many things that don’t seem to line up with the Word. I’ve been to Toronto, Brownsville, spent hours on the Elijah List, and it only gets worse and worse as I dig. I’ve been immersed in it for years. Like I said, I’m only recently starting to read and I’m afraid for my friends. Most of them are caught up with IHOP, (I did an internship with a local house of prayer), B. Johnson, and the whole lot of them. I would love to talk to you more as time goes on. I haven’t talked to my friends about any of this so they don’t know what I’m thinking and reading, but it scares me that I could lose most of them OR I guess the better way to think about this is that they could see the error, too, and turn from it. I’m not completely out, so to speak, cuz I’m still going to my same church. Could use your prayers!
Hi Nancy.
Is that house of prayer in Israel Succot Hallel? (may not be the correct spelling)
I am thankful the Lord is showing you the truth – and that He brought you to the place of questioning to begin with. Praise His name! He is so faithful. You keep reading and praying and I will be here praying for you too. Please feel free to ask anything that you need to. It took me a couple of years to get through and there are areas I still struggle with. Be patient, there is a lot to undo. It was explained to me as a type of deprogramming that takes time, similar to those who come out of cuts. Many believe IHOP IS a cult.
Yes, you will find that these false teachers and prophets do great damage to the faith, denying the deity of Christ, exalting man above His place – the steering of the false prophetic. While they use the name of God they do not honor Him and instead teach false things under the guise of His holy name. But we are seeing more and more these teachings replacing Jesus Christ and the need for salvation. This is what many of these teachings are about, evidence in the way they pray, their methods of spiritual warfare, worship, marketplace ministry, etc.
Our God is more powerful and more faithful than any of those false teachings and teachers. I will pray for you freedom in Christ. I look forward to hearing from you again.
Hi Mkayla,
I am not all that familiar with IHOP/Mike Bickle. When you have time, do you think you could summarize what they are about, hitting on the main bullet points of what people should be aware of/concerned for. From time to time, his end-times class is taught in our church, and it is not uncommon to hear people’s stories of their trips to IHOP etc. And just recently they started doing the prayer room thing, borrowing the “24/7″ label for it, so people can sign up for time slots to come pray during that time. Would really appreciate it, thanks so much. Scott
Hi M’Kayla,thanks for your response. The house of prayer was Jerusalem HOP For All Nations. I was at a conference in which 2,000 people came from 150 nations. At the time I was pumped, but since I’ve been home I’ve been kind of deflated. Honestly it’s hard to know what’s going on. Is the enemy just fooling with me? It all seems like a bad dream. Today I was reading through an article on speaking in tongues, something that I have been immersed in for years; have been taught that it “changes the atmosphere” and breaks stuff, you know…the article was on bible.org. Maybe you could help me with knowing what websites are “reliable”; there’s so much out there…I’m still reeling and what’s to stop me from going extremely to the complete opposite direction? I don’t want to go from one extreme to another. Thanks for your prayers!
mkayla, i am happy to locate you. i am desperate and need advice. first i am not skilled with the use af a blog site.i looked for your e-mail or phone and couldn’t locate it or is that possible to communicate with you like that?
i have someone that i love whom has become heavily involved with Andrew Wommack she now is enrolled in his college. in 2 short months since she has gone i cant believe how she has been decieved. she is a very wounded person and she seems to fit the mold the want to pull in. it has worked. she started via TV. she has dealt with severe depression, a abusive marrage and a bad home life. i need help from someone whom has seen the real truth and what can i do. she is so wound up about everything. all research about second blessing and how it’s mandatory and how you haft to speak in tongues i can co on and on is right in line with what has taken hold of her. can you help me. i have been praying
relentlessly and seeking guidance on this. i am dire need on how to approach this. i have intended on asking for her hand in marrage and i am fearful that this may be slipping away. please help
john williams
@ Nancy. There are so many of us who can relate to you. I am two-ish? years into rediscovering the pure truth after seeing the mixed truths I learned in Charismania. It was probably four years ago that one specific incident got my attention and got me asking questions of what I had learned about ‘the Kingdom.’
For me it has taken quite some time, and is still ongoing. There were times I wondered if I’d have anything left, because it felt like so much I thought was ‘kingdom’ turned out to be man made concoctions. But the amazing thing is that as the half-truths and lies are being stripped away, the Lord Jesus shines brighter, truer, purer and holier than ever before.
I repeatedly ask for the Spirit of Truth to teach me. Sometimes it seemed that was the only safe prayer I could pray as I so doubted my ability to discern the truth.
He is faithful to do it.
The major concern with Bickle is the false teaching, the emphasis on long worship times, the need to involve and transform the youth, and these man-made methods of prayer. 24/7 prayer models or Houses of David as they are also known are not supported in the new testament, nor are they taught by Jesus. Well, nothing that goes on in there is supported either. While I had very little involvement I do have some information on my blog – http://mkayla.wordpress.com/category/mike-bickle-ihop/
I have read many behind the scenes stories by people who were intimately involved in the internship training programs (long-term, not short) and their experiences are not happy ones. These stories speak of some pretty bad treatment – crazy, demanding work (ministry) schedules, forced fasts, lack of personal cash, time and living space. Gospel Masquerade on my blog roll will have more information as she came out of IHOP, as will Sadparent as her son and family are involved, and Truthspeaker also has some good articles, one of which I believe points out that even tho Bickle claims to have a moderate income his wife and he own all the property, which is substantial. If your church is taking on Bickle’s teachings it is in a very dangerous place spiritually. Bickle was one of the Kansas City prophets and last year we saw a joining of his ministry to others who are like-minded – false teachers, false prophets all with supernatural mindsets given more importance and emphasis than the teachings of the bible itself.
Nancy, at this time it is more important and very necessary for you to read your bible and not so much things on the web that you are unsure of. I know there is a great emphasis put on tongues and I also was very much involved. I watched other people convince those they were praying with that they had the gift. One thing is for certain, it does not change the atmosphere. This is a misconception used in charismania. Where in the word are we told such a thing? We are not.
I also struggled with this topic for a time. So please, go to your bible and dig there for the truth, asking the Lord to show you in His word. He will do it and you will feel much better having done this on your own. Be prepared that you may go from one extreme to the other. I did this, but it is how I found the middle ground. I questioned every thing I had learned for decades and I still have questions. But the more I learned the more “grounded” I became. This may take some time so just be patient. And forget the devil, what he could be doing or speaking to you. Focus on Jesus.
I would think this “deflated” feeling may be from being so built up and then having received nothing real, nothing concrete. Once you begin to really dig in the word the Lord will teach you and this feeling will leave. Set your mind on the things of God and not so much on how you feel – emotions can be dangerous and misleading – set your mind to the word because the truth is found there. Remember that song –”Jesus loves me this I know, for the bible tells me so”? It doesn’t say “Jesus loves me this I know because I feel loved”, it says “because the bible says so”. And that is the case in all things as you come out of this. We don’t know things are true because we feel them, we know they are true because the word of God tells us. (I have to remind myself of this all the time.:)
Thanks M’Kayla! I am starting to dig…one topic at at time. There are so many! It seems that one thread leads to another. I’ve prayed that I could find someone to talk to about these things; most of my friends are immersed. So I thank you for taking your time to respond to me and to others. Maybe you addressed this in another place on your blog…but what happened to your friendships when you started to leave things? Have your friends listened to you?
thank you ruthsongs..I appreciate your comments. Yeah, my “ability” to discern is pretty shaken. Right now I don’t want to talk to anyone about anything in fear that I will lead them astray. I guess if I ventured anything it would be to tell them to study the Bible…only! We’ve gotten so off track it ain’t funny; it’s scary. Jesus said this would happen; why aren’t we listening?
I don’t know the correct place to post this, M’Kayla, but I was wondering if you know what happened to sadparent’s blog. I just tried to go there and it’s gone. I fear her son may have given her an ultimatum to take it down (like a meeting of some sort). Whatever the situation, my heart goes out to her and her husband.
Sadparent, if you’re reading this, be strong (1 Cor 1:7) and know that you have many brothers and sisters in Christ who are praying for you.
John, the best you can do is to pray for her and to help her see and understand the excesses and lies of the word of faith when compared to scripture. It could be you are in a good position to do this given your close relationship with her. Is is possible to read the books/teaching from the school with her? It would be an easy way for you to see what she is being taught and then research it in the word. Make an effort to not speak badly about the school or Andrew Wommack. Stay focused on what she is being taught so that it does not sound like an attack against the person.
Many charismatics and Pentecostals put a great emphasis on speaking in tongues, that it is necessary or a gift all should have. We don’t find that teaching in the scripture. In fact, we see that Paul put much more emphasis on the ability to expound truth of the gospel in words that could be understood by the hearers. Study those pertaining to that topic and you will see what I am getting at.
The word of faith promises great things and they sound too good to be true. And they are. Unfortunately, for people who have been hurt a great deal or those who feel as tho they do not fit in they can be even more damaging. The Lord told us we would have great tribulation in this life, but to be of good cheer because He has overcome the world. So we do not need the big escape in blessing upon blessing (wof = materialistic) we have the promise that the Lord would never leave us alone in our hard times.
I hope this helps you. I have more info on wof here on my blog that can also be beneficial. Let me know.
Nancy, when I left charismania I lost the friendships. But in my heart I knew they weren’t true friends because they did not act toward me like other friendships I had in the past. But I have more friends now than I did then, real true Christian friends who spend time with me, talk, pray and have fun just being together.
I can’t say for sure if those I warned listened. They are still involved altho I put it all in writing to them and could show them scripturally where they were off. Every once in a while one of them will contact me with a question and I give them the truth. But as far as I know they still continue to practice they way they did. Now, there is one woman who did come out of it, but we were not involved in the same ministry. It was someone I gave a “prophetic” word to, and she contacted me thru e-mail and I was able to begin to speak the truth to her. But, God had prepared her before hand and she is no longer involved in charismania. We still “chat” from time to time thru e-mail. That was a great encouragement to me. http://mkayla.wordpress.com/2010/06/09/out-of-the-false-prophetic-a-short-testimony/
And there are others who come here and are helped. So, I take it in stride that the Lord is taking care of his own. I may not know which one or when but I do know he is faithful. And he will be to you too! Just pray for them and ask for guidance. It willl come.
Diane, I didn’t know she had taken it down, so it must have happened in the last day or two. I did send her an “aaaahhhhh!” e-mail. Thanks for letting me know. I do correspond with her quite often.
Blessings.
Diane, I received an e-mail and sadparent has deleted her blog.
This is a positive and not a negative move – although we will miss her.
So glad to hear that this is good news! Having come out of a church with a heavy IHOP influence, I have been praying for her and closely following her story. I’ve even commented on her blog a few times. I will continue to pray for her.
By the way, this is the same Diane that stumbled in here with many questions about a year ago (my posts in this thread start on November 12, 2009). Without getting into detail I want to say- God is so good; he whom the Son sets free is free indeed! Still learning and growing, and I stop by your blog often even though I don’t comment very often.
Blessings to you!
I guess I should have said SHE whom the Son sets free is free indeed. He has set me free!!
I thought you were “that” Diane. It is good to see you again and to hear from you. Yes, who the Son sets free is free indeed. Blessings and peace to you my friend.
Praise God for answered prayer!
xoxox
By the way, if you want to tell your story I would love to put it up as its own article. I love that stuff and people need to hear more of them. Think about it!
I will think about it, although it feels like a daunting task. Thanks for the encouragement.
mkyla, i am going thanksgiving week to visit her. need advice on how to start this discussion. is there any printed material
avaliable in a outline form that i could use to organize my thoughts? i have started a notebook with info i have printed and printed every scripture so if necessary for bibical clarity. what would be a good way to start the conversation?
she isn’t aware that she has been decieved. it may not go good. i realize that my attitude must be in love and truth.
this week she seems to be struggling. i wonder if she is questioning some things. i know she misses her girls and there are money issues. i keep praying God will open her eyes.
i feel sorry for all these people. it must be fustrating to really in your heart that all these things don’t add up.
i guess what i need is some sort of guide line on how to approach this issue. there is so much to cover.
thanks
johnny
to others in this link
have any of you been faced with having to discuss the doctrinal issues with the charismatic belief with someone.
how did you approach it. how did you cover all aspects.
how can i just say that you have been decieved? need help
i need to be loveing and patient and pray God will prepare her
heart to hear. any assistance would be great
help
John, I know you are struggling in this. I have approached people who I ministered with on the healing rooms. In letter format, I took their basic teachings and showed where they were not biblically correct. Afterward I took the pages of that letter and split it up into topics and started this blog. These are the articles and should help you as they are directed to basic WOF teachings –
http://mkayla.wordpress.com/2009/06/06/generational-curses/
http://mkayla.wordpress.com/2009/06/08/areallhealed/
http://mkayla.wordpress.com/2009/06/08/holy-spirit-manifestations/
http://mkayla.wordpress.com/2009/06/08/word-curses-do-our-spoken-words-have-power/
http://mkayla.wordpress.com/2010/03/01/eating-off-the-wrong-tree/
This is why I suggested it may be a good thing if you could see her books and the teachings as you would be able to go to the word and show her that the specific WOF teachings she is learning do not come from the bible.
WOF teaches prosperity and blessings – health, wealth, etc. They believe it is God’s will for all to be healed of disease. So, with that in mind why are there so many examples of suffering and sickness in the NT? It is a good foundation to read about the disciples and what they endured because that is the proof of a Christian life. This is why Christ said we would have tribulation. And in his own suffering – us, being conformed to his image, his likeness will suffer too. Someone recently reminded me that the Christian life is one in which we lay our lives down and pick up our cross; the cross being a place of suffering and death. None of the disciples had gobs of money and instead they depended on God to provide all of their needs as they traveled about preaching the gospel. These WOFers have mansions and fleets of cars, some have private jets, vacation homes, and are rich not because God has blessed them, but because many send in their money! Not the same thing. We are blessed because while we were still sinners Christ died for us!
Since this is your first “meeting” tread lightly. And if you do find the opportunity to show her the truth I would only do 2 or 3 otherwise it can be overwhelming. It is an awful place to be – mind-boggling to find what we have believed and worked at and followed after is not the truth. It wouldn’t be a good idea to go in with a comment “you have been deceived” right off because it puts it in a negative place. When that happens most often people become defensive and shut down. If she shuts down she may not be open to hear you and that is not what you want to have happen.
A good place for wof info is “word on the word of faith” blog (on my blogroll). But again, and to encourage you, the bible is the best place to turn. And truly – refuting these teachings is not a hard thing to do. The Lord is with you. It is up to us to show the truth, but it is up to the Holy Spirit to reveal it to the people. He is the only one who can remove those blinders.
I happened to turn on Godtv for a moment last week and caught Andrew Wommack. Of all the people or programs that could have been on at that time, there he was promoting his Charis Bible College. I was struck by his logo on his shirt which is much like the one Benny Hinn uses. A dove and a circle. I’ve tried to find it on the internet to post but have not been able to capture it to copy and paste. Not a big deal, just a little interesting trivia.
I understand your desperation as I felt the same way about those I love when I was working on the research. You would feel even more so because of your love for her. Please be encouraged and find peace in the truth that God loves her even more.
Stay in touch.
Hi – I responded to your other comment.
It could be that she is struggling. It is quite frustrating when we are taught blessing, blessing, prosperity, blah, blah and it does not manifest. We wonder what we are doing wrong, if God does not love us, if we are full of sin, out of His will – on and on and that is the place many leave the faith. These teachings are completely demonic, designed to separate us from our God!
Like I said, tread lightly. You probably don’t need a lot of information so don’t get overwhelmed in trying to get a boat load of info together. Trust in the Lord.
John,
I just read a bit of your comments. What you described in your first comment: the “second blessing” must be what is also known as the “baptism of the Holy Spirit” which charismatics claim is evidenced by the individual speaking in tongues and perhaps “prophesying.” They say this may occur at initial water baptism, but does not always occur then. Therefore, the individual should keep trying until they get this experience either in another water baptism or by the laying on of hands by someone who already has this ‘gift.’ Or, they can get it by praying about it.
I would suggest — if you haven’t already done this — looking up “baptism in the Holy Spirit” to see the ‘pro’ side of the argument; so, that you can know how to refute it yourself.
Now, I don’t deny tongues speaking altogether; however, my personal opinion is that this is an easy way for entrance of the demonic. I’m not saying all who speak in tongues are of satan, though. However, if one starts speaking in a tongue and no one is able to interpret one must wonder what is really being said.
While proponents of the “baptism of the Holy Spirit” will say there are no 2nd class Christians and if you don’t have this ‘gift’ it’s OK; the problem is that it is held in such high esteem that the individual DOES feel 2nd class if they don’t have tongues. They feel pressure to ‘perform’ if they don’t get this gift. And, I believe many fake it for this reason.
Consequently, they may allow others to lay hands on them to ‘impart’ this gift. This is dangerous as Kundalini is passed in this manner (or, if you’re a really good shaktipat you can just motion with your hands or even blow on an individual to pass it).
The bottom line is that its the Holy Spirit who gives out the gifts as He determines. [I Corinthians 12:11]
mkala,
i want to update you on i feel God is doing something. as stated last week. cindy seems very down maybe flustered. i know being homesick has much do to with this. i have prayed that God would open her eyes and ears to hear and she would see that all this does not line up. she is so hung up on the baptism of the holy spirit. i guess when you attain this higher level of spirituallity you think all of us others are lessor. that is the most commented thing she has spoke of and healing second. planting seed’s is third. i am going to focus on one item at a time as you suggested. any additional info you have on the correct way to approach will be greatly appreciated. i believe God is doing something here. if she was walking in God’s will she would not be having these bouts of depression,financial,homesick,anxious and lonely feelings.
do you agree? also God has not provided the money to appear in her bank account as she has been told. i know for a fact that this is causing some anxiety. i have been praying that God would allow confusion in there classes and to open all students eyes and He would have victory here..
Please anyone whom reads this pray for Cindy and the others that have been decieved.
Johnny
Ok. Since she is so concerned with the baptism of the Holy Spirit take a look what the word teaches about it/Him. I sent you the link to the article on Holy Spirit Manifestations. That should be a good beginning. All I did there was take my knowledge in the false teaching I had been exposed to check it against the word. I only used Strong’s Concordance and my bible – it was that simple. WOF/charismania teaches a different work of their “spirit” than the one identified and explained as the Holy Spirit in the word. For example where does charismania find in the word that people are slain in the spirit by the presence and power of the Holy Spirit? They cannot prove it by the word. But they do explain it as being attributed to what takes place when our small frame encounters a powerful God. Look to the word tho – What happens to the men that God visited and spoke to by visitation, often by angels? They became very fearful, usually falling on their faces or on their knees and not backward onto the floor! They had to be told “fear not” and were stood back to their feet to receive the message from God. He does not knock us around, and guess what? He never visited a woman or knocked her down! This sounds more like the actions of an attacker than a loving caring God! Also consider Galatians 5:22-23, the fruits of the Spirit which does not include such acts of violence.
And yes, they do believe they have an anointing higher than other believers which also does not line up in scripture. The Holy Spirit is given to all believers, He is the one who leads us into truth, reveals and convicts us of sin. That how He functions and He does it in love and kindness and is why He is referred to as the Comforter.
Hi M’Kayla, how are you? I’m still processing, processing…reading here and my Bible. I still haven’t talked to anyone “in my circle” about all of this; hope that will happen soon. Kinda still don’t know what to make of all of it. We have a leadership conference coming up soon at my church-Marc Dupont, Alan Vincent are the main speakers. Don’t know if that will be the time that “breaks the camel’s back” or not; I plan on going just to hear what they have to say and how they say it.
Couple of verses I want to run by you; I’m sure you’re very familiar with them cuz they are ones that WOFers use and charismatics rely on respectively: Psalm 103:3 and Jude 20. He heals “all” our diseases and “praying in the Holy Spirit”. Any commentary on those two? I’m not asking so that I can refute anything; I’m interested in your take on them.
thanks! I’ll be here now and again.
Alan Vincent is still making the rounds? He resides here in my adopted home town of San Antonio. I’ve met the guy before as I wanted him to explain “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” to me using Scripture. He sent me about 3-5 pages in an MS Word doc justifying it.
Nancy, it is a matter of taking those scriptures out of context and conformity with the whole word of God. Jesus DID heal all during His earthly ministry, but all are not healed now. One day we will all be healed in His presence but not in this lifetime. Praying in the Holy Spirit is to pray with His guidance. I don’t believe in the use of tongues as many do as I cannot find proof of such thing in the word. But again, I have not been trained in the word. I’m just a little grammie warning others of apostacy in the church from my own experience. It would be interesting to hear what is said in those meetings!
Nice to see you again.
Wow. Did it say anything of real value?
Yes, he quoted lots of Scripture and stated the evidence would be by tongues and prophecying. Here’s a piece:
It has three parts to it :-
a) Being born again.
b) Being baptized in Water.
c) being baptized in the Holy Spirit.
I would say he does a thorough job of it. I totally disagree with it, of course. The MS doc is over 4 pages in length.
mkayla,
check out the 700 club webb site. click on amazing stories
then click on article jeff markin back from the dead.
there is also a article on the doctor that did this.
how can this be verified? there should medical evidence and procedure to document if this is true.
The 700 Club has lots of amazing and miraculous stories. I do believe God still works miracles. I cannot say if this was an act on His part or something set up so more people would send in their money. I hate that I have to be that way but there has been so much lying for the sake of fortune and fame. (I financially supported this ministry for a time.) I have to question if God wanted this man raised why it was necessary to “shock” him. And what of the “darkness”? I have to think if someone is actually raised the story would be rebroadcast all over the world and the media would be nuts about it! Ken Hagin also tells his story of being “rescued” from Hell. The WOFers are full of stories yet so many are still without salvation. This grieves me because I had such a fondness for Pat Robertson. I still hope and pray that these people would find true salvation and return to the real work of the gospel and teaching that edifies believers.
mkayla,
again cindy made a statement about the baptism of the holy spirit. she said she wished that i understood how important it was. why is this such a issue for her? i don’t know how to respond. she seems so sure about this and i wonder if she is think that we are unyoked togather because of this.
John,
Exactly what is she finding so important that you do not? Again, your response is found in the word. These people in WOF are not baptised in the Holy Spirit. They are full of false teachings and all that goes with it. You can come to the place to say her lord is not the same as yours. If they believe something other than what the scripture is teaching then they are no longer following Jesus Christ. That makes the two of you unequally yoked.
John,
Here is a link to Wommack’s teachings. Maybe hearing it will help you with the battle. (I haven’t listened.)
http://www.awmi.net/extra/audio/1040
mckayla, thursday night was a disaster. she brought up the same subject again. i responded in love and gave her a reference scripture. she got very angry and defensive. she stated that this issue is a deal breaker for us. anything i said, she refuted and argued no matter what the issue was. she said i was wrong and bibically ignorant to the things of God. She said you can’t argue scripture. it’s all in the Bible. to be honest i got flustered and mad to. God is the only one that can open her eyes at this point. thanks for your love and support in this.
This is sad John and it is typical behavior. To become angry and defensive takes the focus on the real problem.
I am sorry.
Want to run something by you; I don’t want to be looking for a “demon behind every bush” but everything I receive these days I’m picking apart! This was in a ministry update from some friends who are in YWAM, a ministry I was a part of for 7 years.
They were hanging with some homeless guys and “God led” them to do this with the guys: (their conversation)
“Are you guys up for an experiment, where we ask God what he thinks about you?
Blank stares. I wondered if the idea was really from God after all. Finally, one of the DTS students, spoke up.
“Thanks for being the guinea pig, Dustin,” I said.
We asked God his thoughts about Dustin and waited silently for a couple minutes.
We shared those thoughts with him, which affirmed and encouraged everyone. To my surprise, even Damien and Troy, who don’t have a relationship with God yet, had something to share. Everyone was excited because we all heard from God! We prayed for each person in our group and were elated because God was no longer an idea but real, personal and knowable.
It was amazing to experience God together with these three guys. I know they came a few steps closer to God. As our relationships continue throughout the rest of the year, we pray they will encounter the living God and their lives will never be the same!”
OK, this is me again…if a person doesn’t “know God”, will they “hear God” in an “experiment” like this? My intention isn’t to come against my friends, but isn’t this some of the same stuff that you’re talking about in this blog? Is everybody out there hearing God even if they don’t know Him??? I don’t want to sound nit-picky; just wanted your thoughts…and anybody else’s for that matter who read these comments.
Just to say, too, that I think it’s great that my friends are ministering; that’s not my point. My question is are we misleading people?
This is the false prophetic, aka treasure hunting, life reading, destiny words, etc. and not different from that of a psychic! These experiences can be very powerful and seem to have deep meaning, affecting all who are involved. But they are false! If this person would have given us the specific message that was “heard”, the lie would be easily seen in it. How do unbelievers hear from God in the true sense? Through the word of God, through hearing the word. Romans 10:17 and how do the hear it? Through preachers v 14. God does not perform for people through these experiements to prove His existence to them.
In charismania it is no longer enough that Jesus died because of the love of the Father as we are told in John 3:16. Now we have to give specific words of love or divine destiny to assure people God loves them. There has to be an experience, an enounter. There is no gospel, only a hope that they will one day be saved. we pray they will encounter the living God. If they were the messengers of God, what happened to the true message that would have brought them the opportunity to be saved? They would have had a much better chance if they had heard about Jesus and not about themselves!
This is not the way the disciples preached the gospel at all. It is the seeker sensitive, feel good about yourself message that gives glory to man and not to God. Notice how it gives a false sense of hope and security – “Wow, look at what God has to say about ME!” or “Wow! Look at how God is using little old ME!” It is not ministering in a true Christian sense and I am sure it grieves God to see this taking place, to see the name of His son who died being used in such a false and meaningless way.
I am sure if God was to answer back the message would be in the form of their need of repentance. We can only have a relationship with God through Jesus Christ. He is the only way to God, and certainly not through some feel good words! Speaking truth to others can be no different than what we read of Jesus and the disciples doing when they were face to face with people. They called out their sin or gave them a piece of truth, but they never gave a “reading” in the way the false prophetic teaches them to do.
Yes, this is the same as what I came out of and it is very deceptive. The next step is to teach people to place great importance on these words, to pray over them, post them, read them daily and remind God of them. They begin to take on meaning greater than that of the bible itself. That is where we begin to see people chase after the next word the same as an addict will chase after the next fix. A situation in their lives will arise and they need a “word” to know what to do. So in this scenario we again see an example of what happens when we step away from the teaching of scripture and follow man’s cleverly devised plans and methods. When someone comes with a “word” a great question to ask is “Where’s Jesus?” Revelation 19:10 For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
mkayla, to update you. last night things didn’t go well over the phone. Cindy said we were uneaqually yoked again. this time i agreed. In love God gave me the ability to say some things to her. i agreed that we were unequally yoked and the reason i feel like this is because: you have allowed yourself to be self decieved by your lack of discernment. you have allowed yourself to beleive something other than what scripture preaches. your lord is not the same lord as mine.the false teachings and heresies of Wommack are not the truth.
this may not be important but, she never once interupted,got mad, or hung up the phone.
she wants to us to take a break?? i have no choice here.
i told her that pretty much all that i have learned about this man and how she should concerning anything she is told there to weigh it search it go to God’s word and verify.
she then aks me about Joseph Prince again in love i told the truth. i have canceled the trip. i ask you and all whom read this to pray that god will remove the scales from her eyes and that he will guide us thru in truth. i also told her that. i also ask her about her salvation in Jesus. that did offend her. there were several comments during the talk
that were sarcastic. but, do you find it interesting that she allowed me to talk for a change? i don’t know what will happen. i do feel that when the money is gone and God does not put money in her account just maybe she will see the truth. she also said she would listen to Justin Peters CD,s
on errors of the WOF. and i could send her some info and she would commit to read it as long as i read what she sends me. do you recommend that i do not overwhelm her with this. just a little at a time. thanks johnny
Hi John.
I do find it encouraging that she listened to you. It is unfortunate that we have been so conditioned in listening to “leaders – those who hear from God” when we should have been trained in bible study and discernment. We have become lazy over the decades not wanting to invest in the time and mind labor that it takes to become true disciples, wanting more of the waaa-hoo supernatural experiences, chasing after the manifestation of that miracle in which so many will be saved, healed, delivered. And as you pointed out, waiting for the cash – the blesssssinng – to make an appearance. Those who wait for these things continue to wait. It is not what we are taught in the word. When these things do not appear they tell us our faith is to blame. But the word of God says that He has given to everyone a measure of faith – see Romans 12:3. So, how is it that we cannot have enough? This scripture also reminds us not to think more highly of ourselves than we should. I have to think when we put out an expectation of God to perform according to our wishes, we do exactly that. Matthew 28:19-20 Jesus tells His disciples to make disciples of all the nations v19, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded in v20. That is what we are to do, and how we are to do it. Again, WOF/Charismania teachings are not found in the bible and it is safe to conclude they are not the teachings of Jesus Christ, but of prideful man.
I have prayed for you and your friend and I will continue to. Leave room for the Lord to lead you in the next step, what to send her, what to say, and when. Jesus is Lord. Amen.
And here is what is going on in “non-pentecostal” evangelical Christianity. Nothing better there.
http://www.whatistherevolution.com/2010/12/10/603/
Its good to gather and have fun – laugh, talk, play and even drink some coffee! When the focus is on reaching the lost we have to make sure we carve out the time to do that! I liked what the author said about being sensitive to the leading of the Holy Spirit in leading these to repentance. If we are in a hurry we are in the lead and the focus is off. This was a very good article.
I’m not sure whether you looked into this at all mkayla, but I also had never heard of worm theology and did a bit of research (albeit limited, as there doesn’t seem to be a lot of information out there).
In a nutshell, it seems to be the idea that God will show compassion to those who maintain a low view of themselves. Crudely speaking, that low self esteem is desirable, a kind of warped interpretation of our need for humility and the danger of pride and arrogance.
The exact term “worm” is often thought to have originated from the line of a hymn “Would he devote that sacred head for such a worm as I?” Putting this aside for a moment, since we don’t look at hymns as the authorative source of truth, we are apparently meant to believe that certain scriptures support this theology.
For example Psalm 22:8 begins “But I am a worm and not a man.” But exactly how this could ever be interpreted as representing a desirable state of mind escapes me. The context of this sentence is a Psalm that commences, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me,” and then develops into the most despairing petition imaginable by one who has reached such emotional depths as to feel totally alienated from God. Whether or not one believes that Psalm 22 is prophetic of Christ’s suffering, I simply cannot understand how anyone could understand the anguished statement “But I am a worm and not a man” to be an objective truth.
Incredibly I did run into at least one poor soul citing Job 25:6, “How much less man, who is but a maggot – a son of man, who is only a worm.” Again, given the whole context of the book of Job how on earth can any rational person perceive the discourses of Bildab to be an objective truth around which we should build a doctrine? In God’s own words in Job 42:7, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.”
Anyway, I don’t purport to understand the whole theology as it is not really familiar to me. I get an impression of something like the psychological equivalent to flagellation to be honest.
God certainly saw our worth as being sufficient to warrant the death of His son on a cross. In fact Paul says in Acts 13:46, “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.” It seems that to not understand our own worth in the eyes of God can have rather serious consequences!
There may been a time in my life when I was so low as to see myself as having the worth of a worm or a maggot, but I praise my heavenly Father that he saw me as anything but!
I haven’t looked into it and this is quite a bit to think about. I think it is safe to say that anything which exalts mankind over God, pride, entitlement, etc. should be avoided. It is true God must love us a bunch to endure what He did on the cross knowing full well how He would be treated by those He died for. Agape love is nearly incomprehensible to us, impossible without Him. But in looking at all He is, all He created, endured and all that is to come, we truly are nothing in comparison. Through Christ we are accepted by God – forgiven and allowed to experience life with Him eternally. Nothing we can do comes close to all that He is.
Blessings.
I like your new theme – and welcome back from your time off
Thanks! I’m coming over to check yours out!
This is a fantastic article on discernment….
http://www.letusreason.org/Pent54.htm
Hi Maria. It is fine to contact me here. I moderate all comments before they can be posted for viewing.
Maria, I don’t believe God sends prophetic words through false teachers – even if sermonindex approved it –
The goings on at IHOP are false and dangerous and should be avoided at all costs.
Maria, you don’t need to apologize. If you see something and feel it needs to be exposed, please say so. I am not against posting a link if you can show why (scripturaly) it is false teaching. I’ve never heard of him either and I didn’t want to take the time – couldn’t spare it – to listen and research. I don’t do much on IHOP because I was never involved, except to buy M Edwards’ music. yeesh – bad stuff. So, if you would like to take this man’s teaching apart, please feel free and I will have a look at it.
I like the new look – very fresh
Be well.
Two comments on your comment:
1) I’ve heard a missionary to India say that Hindus there already believe in so many gods, some want to add Jesus to their pantheon when they hear the Gospel. When he has ministered to them, he has emphasized that they must renounce all other gods to become followers of Jesus the Christ, to be born again into His Kingdom and thus become His children.
2) I don’t know any details, but I do know that Robert Schuller’s own son, Robert (different middle initial) Schuller, left that church soon after the elder retired to become pastor ‘emeritus’ (or something similar) and he became the new pastor. What I read about that was that the younger one wanted to emphasize the Scriptures, and the elder was opposed to that idea. I don’t know if that’s true, or not, and I am sure it’s not the whole story, though it may have been the crux of the issue. I just know that I heard the elder Schuller make extremely fleshly, man-centered pronouncements for years. He twisted the Scriptures to serve man, instead of urging man to serve God.
Mkayla, ITA with you that we need to compare all teachings to the Word of God. The Lord specifically commended the believers at Berea for doing that; He said they were “more noble” than other believers who did not. (ref: Acts)
It is also true that “discerning of spirits” is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, as listed in I Corinthians 12. I don’t know for sure if that’s what “Stevens kid” was referring to, or not. It may have been.
No, he was disagreeing with me based on his presumed supernatural ability to discern that I was simply being critical. As was the reason for my response and I still agree with it. It is not the same as a discerning or distinguishing of spirits listed in 1 Corinthians 12:10, but is a typical response from those who defend false teachers and prophets.
There is only one place in the Bible that mentions “seven mountains.” Rev. 17:9–”And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.” I have always wondered why the church would choose that particular terminology because of what it is associated with in the Bible. The only mandate given by Jesus Christ to His Church is found in Matthew 28:18-20–”And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, unto the end of the world. Amen.” Jesus came to save souls, not institutions. You cannot save the “media” or any of the other “mountains.” But you can preach the gospel to individuals that work in the media or the government, etc.
Cyndy, if I remember correctly, seven? mountains surround Jerusalem. That may be significant in the passage which you quoted.
David M wrote, “In a nutshell, ['worm theology'] seems to be the idea that God will show compassion to those who maintain a low view of themselves. Crudely speaking, that low self esteem is desirable, a kind of warped interpretation of our need for humility and the danger of pride and arrogance.”
David, this verse is in both the OT and NT (Proverbs and one of Peter’s letters):
“God gives grace to the humble, but resists the proud.”
I don’t see any place in His kingdom for “self” at all, whether it’s self-confidence, self-esteem (He told us in Philippians to “esteem others better than ourselves), or any other “self”- words. I believe this is worldly teaching which puts “self” at the center of our lives. The Lord has made it clear that He, and He alone, is to be the center, the focus, of our lives — that we are to seek first HIS kingdom — and He has promised to meet our daily needs as we do so.
Yes, He loved us when we were yet sinners. We love Him because He first loved us. I believe His great and mighty love is a reflection of His nature, not evidence that there was anything loveable about us before He made us new creatures in Christ Jesus. He has told us to crucify our flesh (another word for “self”). He has said we cannot serve two masters.
I do not say this to be negative, at all. Only to try to bring a Scriptural balance to this subject which is sorely lacking in some parts of the Body today. We are living in the days which Christ Jesus prophesied. I am keenly aware of my own need to abide in Him more closely, to hold to Him more tightly, than I have ever done before. And I praise God that He is able to do exceeding, abundantly more than we can ask or think! He is always, always, always faithful.
Michelle, that is the same direction many of us go. Praise God that He never leaves us and is faithful to bring us back to Him. Thanks for the kind comments and encouragement. Please let me know if I can help.
Bill Johnson’s signs and wonders teaching has been slowly creeping into our church. The leadership is setting up a School of the Supernatural similar to Bill Johnson’s to teach select individuals in the church; the main emphasis is on physical healing. I have heard from people in our church that a couple of individuals have experienced gold dust falling on their shoulders and Bibles.
My wife was diagnosed with breast cancer last year and has since completed chemo and radiation treatments. My wife and I have had peace during this whole time and rely totally on God. My wife has been able to minister to other women she has met in the oncology waiting and infusion rooms.
Several people that are following the Bill Johnson teaching have either said directly or implied, if my wife’s faith is strong enough, she will be healed. This has been hurtful to my family and to others in the church. At this point in time, my wife is doing great and her doctor is pleased with her progress. We continue to thank God for his mercy and blessings he bestows on us every day.
Please pray that God will give me the knowledge I need when I present my concerns to my pastor. Unfortunately he and other members of the church leadership are very interested in this teaching. Thanks for listening.
Tom, my heart goes out to you and your wife. Thank you for your testimony in the way the Lord is working with you both in your wife’s illness. Sad, and I know many are being led astray into the dangerous teaching of Bethel. I get many of these stories. We keep praying for them to see the truth. The Lord can bring people out of it – he did me. I will pray that your pastor heed your words and that the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth to all who listen to you.
You may want to take a look at the comments under Gold Dust Phenomena. I think you will find some good words there and some comfort in being like minded with others.
Let me know how/if I can help.
Mkayla, I finally started a blog on wordpress and wrote my first article…its crude but I wanted to pass it on to you and others to research it out as the bereans that you are.
anyway I hid my name on it so family members and people from church that are still locked up in WOF and NAR doctrines could read it and possibly accept it…I will take emails on it and posts and you can repost if you want. but I believe this is Major!
http://itisthetruth.wordpress.com/2012/03/02/the-truth-on-mark-1123/