Caveat Emptor

Caveat emptor – Let the buyer beware.

I took a jump and bought a book. After having been deceived by so many lying teachers and spending a small fortune on their “stuff” I’ve held off from reading much of anything in print. Who wants to be deceived again and pay money for it?  But, I purchased a book on line from a company I have used quite a bit in the past. Would you believe the very next day I read a short post on the same author and learned that he is actually emergent!!!  You may believe it, I could not. I listened to this guy for about half an hour on youtube and I never heard anything wrong.  This is how easy it is to get pulled in to their mess.

I went ahead and waited two weeks for the book to arrive.  After it did, it sat on my table for a whole day before I bothered with unpacking it. I usually rip right into new books, but not this one. The bubble had burst.  Each time I saw the book I kicked myself for not checking him out better than what I had.  I still don’t know how I missed that!  Is this not what I have been screaming about?  AAAAHHHH!

Finally, I unpacked the dreaded book. I looked at the back cover which was full of gleaming praise from other well known emergent leaders. Ugh. This was more than bad. I tried to read the book just to see if I could pick out the heresy. I couldn’t concentrate. Even after several attempts.

One more book for that s’more fest coming soon.

I contacted the Christian bookseller to let them know this was not a Christian book. They did not care.

Here is their response:

It might be useful for you to understand our philosophy of product selection.  Because we attract and service a wide range of customers (from pastors to homemakers, and seminary students to parents) whose interests and theological tastes vary enormously, we sometimes carry products that contradict each other or that are written by people that not all of our customers agree with theologically.  It is this kind of diversity in selection that has become a trademark of our company.  We don’t want to become a theological or social ‘censor’ of the books we carry, but we also try to remain selective.  So we tend to carry most popular Christian titles unless there is a compelling reason not to.

So, I would be safe in the assumption that deception and false teaching is not a compelling enough reason for a Christian bookseller to refuse to carry such titles. They are right. This information IS useful for me to know. Wide and “diverse”  is the road for book selling, not the same as the narrow one leading to salvation.

Money talks, again and again and its mouth is too big to fit through that narrow gate.

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47 thoughts on “Caveat Emptor

  1. Mkayla, instead of reading books, you should write one. I pray for a concise, well written book to send to every pastor and christian friend in my city! I have been reading m’kayla’s corner non-stop. I have printed out each subject as though it were a chapter. A book is “emerging” from this group.
    Thank you,
    Kathleen

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  2. Hi Mkayla. Have you studied the differences within the emergent movement?? I don’t know a lot about it but there seem to be doctrinal differences within the emergent church. For example Mark Driscoll is part of the emergent church and is a calvanist, believes that women should not have the title of “pastor” and pretty orthodox in his doctrine in spite of his teachings on sex within the context of a marriage. He does a brief teaching on the differences within the emergent movement posted on You Tube that is pretty good. I posted it here for your review.

    Let me know what you think!

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    • Hi wordoffatihnomore!
      I haven’t studied much about it because I wasn’t really involved. I did belong to a life group from my previous church where we watched those silly and lifeless NOOMA videos. And my x pastor was very much into Richard Foster, Dallas Willard, Brennan Manning, etc. It seems they were getting more involved just before I left.

      It comes up from time to time and that is why I put some info here about it. There are two other sites I visit that do quite a bit of research in emergent and contemplative, so I have done a lot of reading on it. But, I wouldn’t be able to draw the line in their differences. I never even thought of it that way. The sites I get most of my info from are Apprising Ministries and Lighthouse Trails. I have their links on my blogroll.

      A calvanist AND emergent??? I’m still trying to figure out what a calvanist is! So, is this combo a new spin? heheh Thanks for the link. I will watch it in the next day or so, as soon as I can and get back with you. 🙂

      Blessings.

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    • HI Word of..

      From the video –
      I am hearing lots of name dropping, methods, pride. There is a definite search for the right method to lure people into the church, to make it attractive, culturally applicable, and fun, rather than allowing the Lord to lead those He will to come in. Nations and cultures change but God, His word, His methods do not! So why is everyone jumping on the same bandwagon to lure them in? Money? Fame? If a church is truly about Jesus Christ and salvation, then the word is “repentance”, not culturally relevant entertainment. (And yes, I am using the word “lure” because I believe that is exactly what is being done.)

      I really hate that shirt he has on and I know that may sound petty to some, but those types pictures of Jesus really bug me.

      I have long ago tired of people who say they love this person and that person and everyone is just so wonderful. Who cares if the person is good or not? This is not the message of the gospel either!

      He may have a way of separating these emergent streams, but they are one and the same to me – seeker friendly rather than biblically relevant.

      I am reminded of this scripture:
      2 Timothy 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

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    • Wordoffaithnomore you are incorrect about MarkD riscollb eing emergent – he started out in the same campas many of the emergent leaders but has since rejected any assoicatoin with emerging theology.

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  3. Hi M’kayla
    Does this book store at least have a christian background?.we have a prominent christian bookstore chain in Australia that i suspect is not owned by Christians , or at best a company purporting to have christian ethics.The point of the excercise then comes down to the almighty profit.Walking into these stores is an ecumenical nightmare, it amazes me how so many titles can emanate from the one source, the bible.For mine, best to bypass the rest and go straight to the true version of Gods word.
    God bless

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    • I can’t say if it does or not. But the one in my neighborhood carries all kinds of the emergent leader’s books. I spoke with the manager about it and she said she would notify the owner.

      The book that I purchased wasn’t for theology. I have been wondering about America being a Christian nation as I have my doubts and have had some interest on how it all came about. The book I bought was The Myth of A Christian Nation. It was full of this guy’s theology when I thought it would be about his research into the past. Wrong I was. But, live and learn, huh?

      Blessings to you.

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  4. Amen sister. I know the Liberal Emergent branch is REALLY BAD based on their errors in doctrine but that’s all that I know about this movement other than what Mark Driscoll teaches. There does seem to be some serious doctrinal disagreements within the movement. Mark Driscoll endorses John Piper, Martin Luther, Charles Spurgeon and others as people who have influenced him. Enjoy the You Tube video. I look forward to reading your response!

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  5. Re: “… believes that women should not have the title of “pastor”… ”

    Just adding a foot note: There is no record in the NT of any man, let alone a woman, who has the title of pastor, nor is any man addressed as ‘the pastor’ or ‘pastor so and so’ in the NT.

    Shepherding was a role of the elders/overseers, plural. The qualifications for an elder were that he is the husband of one wife. etc.

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    • I guess for most the words “pastor” and shepherd” are interchangeable. And it does state the elder should be the HUSBAND of one WIFE, and so if it were ok for women to pastor, or in your case here, elder, then it would have been worded a little differently. I am not against women in leadership in some areas, but I am against them “pastoring” in the sense of being over a large group. I don’t think it’s our role and sadly, I’ve never known a woman who could effectively lead without being overly controlling and manipulative. Maybe I am wrong in this thinking, and there is a part of me that wants for it to be, but just my thoughts on it.

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  6. I appreciate that sister.

    I think it’s important to know that there never was an elder over a church, the elders are always referred to in the plural in any one church.

    And that’s clearly evident in the epistles addressed to various churches. No where is ‘the pastor’ identified, but the elders are mentioned.

    But that brings up the issue of the authority of the Scriptures.

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  7. Bible quiz : Find this man in the NT!

    August 10, 2008

    Pick up your NT and look for this man.

    Show me a man in the NT who preaches to the same congregation week after week, month after month, year after year.

    Show me a man in the NT who is called the head of the church.

    Show me a man in the NT that makes the decisions for a local church.

    Show me a man in the NT that represents the church in the world, that blesses civic events, that marries the living and buries the dead.

    And if you can find that man in the NT who fits all of those descriptions, then George Barna will give you $500,000.

    From: http://www.paganchristianity.org/zensresponds1.htm

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  8. Pingback: M’Kayla’s Korner – A Site To Bookmark « Signposts 02

    • Hi Greg.

      Brennan Manning isn’t mentioned here so I am not sure why you are asking me about him. I don’t know much about him except for those he runs with are very much emergent/contemplative who have twisted the pure approach to God as taught in the bible with those of other eastern religions and Catholicism. There are two other blog sites listed on my blog roll who do quite a bit of research into that area. If you are interested in their views you should check them out as they will have much more information than I do – Apprising and Lighthouse.

      I was never into emergent, but I know the church I left earlier this year has gone in that direction and has carried their books (unknowing to me) for years. I have done some research as it seems to pop up here and there along the way. It is very dangerous, another method satan is using to seduce believers away from the simplicity of the gospel of Jesus Christ. So, if you do any research the first thing you will find is the methods taught are not the ones Jesus taught or practiced, but ones that are man made to achieve a higher level of spirituality. This in itself is not Christianity.

      Like I said, those two other sites can say it much better than I can.

      Blessings.

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    • Greg, in reading about someone different I just came across this info on B Manning from
      http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/bethmoorethumbsup.htm

      …Manning is a devout admirer of Beatrice Bruteau of The School for Contemplation.

      Bruteau believes that God lives in all creation, stating: “We have realized ourselves as the Self that says only I AM, with no predicate following, not “I am a this” or “I have that quality.” Only unlimited, absolute I AM.

      And yet in Abba’s Child, Manning says that Bruteau is a “trustworthy guide to contemplative consciousness.” Manning, whose view of the Cross is very similar to that of Brian McLaren, promotes contemplative and states:

      [T]he first step in faith is to stop thinking about God at the time of prayer. Choose a single, sacred word or phrase that captures something of the flavor of your intimate relationship with God. A word such as Jesus, Abba, Peace, God or a phrase such as “Abba, I belong to you.” … Without moving your lips, repeat the sacred word inwardly, slowly, and often. When distractions come, … simply return to listening to your sacred word…. [G]ently return [your mind] to your sacred word. (Brennan Manning)

      Beth Moore quotes Manning from his book Ragamuffin Gospel calling the book “one of the most remarkable books” (p. 290) she has ever read. But it is this very book that reveals Manning’s true affinity with contemplative spirituality. In the back of the book, Manning makes reference to Basil Pennington saying that Pennington’s methods will provide us with “a way of praying that leads to a deep living relationship with God.” However, Pennington’s methods of prayer draw from Eastern religions. In his book, Finding Grace at the Center, Pennington says:

      We should not hesitate to take the fruit of the age-old wisdom of the East and “capture” it for Christ. Indeed, those of us who are in ministry should make the necessary effort to acquaint ourselves with as many of these Eastern techniques as possible. Many Christians who take their prayer life seriously have been greatly helped by Yoga, Zen, TM and similar practices. (from A Time of Departing, 2nd ed., p.64)

      Manning also cites Carl Jung in Ragamuffin Gospel as well as interspiritualists and contemplatives, Anthony De Mello, Marcus Borg, Morton Kelsey, Gerald May, Henri Nouwen, Annie Dillard, Alan Jones, Eugene Peterson, and Sue Monk Kidd.

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  9. I have to say I disagree with you about Brennan – just because he approves of those things doesn;t makehim wrong,in fact those practices are extremely helpful. Brennan would never say that they are required for salvation however.

    Dop you participate in Easter and Christmas celebrations? They were once pagan celebrations that were taken over by Christians and redeemed for Christ. Why then can’t eastern spiritual practices be redeemed for Christ?

    Is not God everywhere? Why is it so bad to consider God as living in all creation?

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    • Greg, Christianity is above and beyond any of the eastern religions and its method of prayer and meditation and worship and the way we learn about the Lord are far different as well. It is what sets us apart from all the rest and why we called a peculiar people. We cannot “redeem” eastern religious practices because God never intended for us to worship Him or “experience” Him the way these other religions do their gods. It is a question of salvation because once we begin to practice what is not laid out in the bible we begin to follow other gods. I see emergent/contemplative religion the same as I do charismania. We listen and follow something that is said by a leader – how to worship, how to pray, how to experience, how to have dreams and visions or third heaven/throne room experiences. But, God never wrote any of that out for us in the bible. Please be careful. This is how I got into the mess I was in – believing and listening to others with more “wisdom or knowledge” than me. And to make it worse, I accepted their teaching as truth rather than check it in the bible. The word is the only way we can keep from being deceived and once we part, we are wide open for anything. There is much to be said about the supernatural, it is a wide open playing field, but all experiences are not from God.

      We find out who God is by reading His word. Eastern religions practice what is inside – what they hear, sense and feel. It is all about the inner person. This does not add up in Christianity because we are taught that the glory and the power and the worship belongs to God, not to man. It is not about the inner person, but the One who died for us – Christ! If we are truly Christians then we must follow the examples of Christ as He taught His disciples. This is not enough for some, and again, just like in charismania it is all about the flesh.

      I can’t put Christmas or Easter in the same category for this discussion as they are simply holidays or days of remembrance. To observe them does not make me closer to God or put me on a higher spiritual level, etc. I do have issues with them being what they are, but I remember they are only a day and as it is said in the bible, I think – Paul that one will observe a day as holy and another will not, but to leave it be. Sorry, poor paraphrase, but you get what I mean, I hope. I know some Christians celebrate Halloween, however, I cannot as I learned along ago all the horrendous things that happen on that night.

      God may be everywhere, but God is not in everything as Buddhists teach. God may encompass all things but He is not a part of the tree in my backyard even though He created it. The things that are taught in the emergent/contemplative sound good. But once we stop and compare them with the bible we find they are not the truth.

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  10. Also I’m not sure why I asked you about Manning – I was sure I read him among a list of people you said were no good – perhaps on another thread and I’ve posted off topic. Sorry for that. I like your site, you put a great deal of thought and research into your posts. gotta say I disagree with your views on emerging Christianity – but agree with just about everything else.

    Peace

    Greg

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    • hehe – WHEW! I am glad to hear you say that because for a moment I thought I was losing my mind! I may have mentioned him in another article tho.
      I am glad my blog speaks to you. Thanks for your kind words. 🙂

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  11. Use of a technique for ‘prayer’ is when God is not known in the Person of Jesus Christ. When someone doesn’t know the Person they substitute with techniques.

    Try the mumbo jumbo out on your best friend. They will tell you to shut up and talk to them as a real person.

    The emergent leaders don their cool thick rimmed glasses and strain to look intelligent for the camera, but they’re very stupid.

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  12. If permitted, I’d like to address Greg – please keep the Bible as your main source of truth and the foundation for belief. As M’Kayla has said, and I whole-heartedly agree, it is the ONLY way to keep on track with the truth. So many other teachers/books/movements out there today contain just enough truth to sound good, but the little bit that is untrue slowly but surely leads astray.

    There are no old, forgotten ways the Christian needs to rediscover in order to get closer to God. The ancient way is the way of scripture. Jesus is the living way, and always will be. All other religions try to devise a way to reach God/be like God. This feeds our fleshly desire for control and self-reliance. Christianity is the only religion where God reaches to us through Jesus Christ. It is the way of humbly receiving what God and only God can do.

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  13. Mat 6:6 But you, when you pray, enter into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret shall reward you openly.

    Mat 6:7 But when you pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

    Pray to your Father, without repetitions/techniques. Why do the eastern religions and the EC do that? Bcos they don’t know the Father.

    Another point: Techniques are to do with a person being fixated on them self. How could you pray for others that way? How could the repetition of any mantra be interpreted by God as an intelligent request to help some one else?

    That’s why i use the word ‘stupid’ in reference to the EC.

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    • You are right. They don’t know the Father nor do they follow in His ways. They claim to, but they are wrong. There is much to be said about vain repetitions in prayer. We see it in those large gatherings called rallies, and the same scriptures apply to them. They are not following the Father, but themselves. The church I left and from what I have heard, others have joined and learned this from Bill Johnson, say the same prayer each week, standing, speaking in unison what is a decree or proclamation, not a true prayer in the sense of asking the Father for what is needed. It is declaring to Him what is needed and what He should do about it. Crazy!

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  14. Thank you Mkayla for taking the time to respond to my question. I very much agree with you that the bible should be the ‘front and centre’ of any understanding of how we relate with God. I consider myself to be a Christian of the ’emerging’ kind and I avhe a deep and abiding love for adn respect of the bible and I also consider myself to know God and follow God’s ways (I have avoided gender based pro-nouns on purpose).

    I’m wondering if you would do me the kindness (as many of you as are prepared to) of reading the following link to a post by Dan Kimball (They Love Jesus But Not The Church/The Emerging Church), Please don’t Stereotype The Emerging Church.

    Once you’ve read this post can we come back for further discussion?

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    • Hi Greg. I read the article but it doesn’t say anything specific, at least in the way I was looking for it to. Visiting a church or reading a doctrinal statement doesn’t prove what is going on with its members. I lived that at the Vineyard church I left earlier this year. Many of the congregants aren’t aware of what goes on behind the scenes in those small “intimate” groups.

      I am more concerned with some of your statements. What do you mean by these:
      I consider myself to be a Christian of the ‘emerging’ kind – What does that mean exactly?
      (I have avoided gender based pro-nouns on purpose). Why?

      Thanks!

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  15. From the Collins English dictionary

    Emerge, Emerging, emerged

    1) To come into view out of something.

    2) To come out of a particular state of mind or way of existence (coincidentally, the contextual example given is: “She emerged from the trance”)

    3) To come to the end of a particular event or situation.

    4) To become apparent, esp as the result of a discussion or investigation.

    5) To come into existence over a long period of time.

    Greg – can you explain from your understanding and experience of emergent Christianity a) What is it exactly that has emerged? and b) From where it emerged?

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  16. On “gender based pronouns” for God.

    You mean like Jesus calling God, His Father? And the Father calling Jesus, My Son?

    Jesus could have learned something from Rob Bell, eh.

    Thick rimmed glasses, just the right shirt and shoes, but CRAP flows from their mouths.

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  17. Hi all. Sorry for the delay in writing back – anyhoo…………

    The issue of gender based pronouns for God is something I have thought about quite a bit and I accept that Jesus referred to God as father, and I guess that should be the end of it. The reason I avoid them at times is to draw attention to the times when God really should be thought of in feminine terms and where both Jesus and God identify themselves with feminine language- mother hens and pregnant mothers. God really is not a boys name!

    What I mean by emerging Christian is that I identify first and foremost as a follower of Jesus, I amp art of an established faith tradition – Anglican – Episcopal over in the USA, but I see that for the church to move ahead and not die out and become a minority religion the notions of being the centre of all social and political worlds has to go – we are no longer living in a Christendom world the church is not the centre of the village. There have to be some fundamental shifts in the practices of our faith – not and I repeat not the message of the faith. Our central message is and always has to be salvation through Jesus – but how that is shared with others and how we view others has to change.

    I don;t think of others as being either Christian or non Christian – in or out – I view others as being in different locations in relation to the centre – Jesus. There is no in or out…as far as it matters to me…there may be as far as God is concerned,but somehow I don’t think so.

    Scripture is important in testing doctrine and theology – but we need an understanding of how different texts were written and to whom and for what purpose in getting to understand what they may or nay not mean to us in this day and age.

    I think emerging faith is related to emerging from a the group of religious traditions who still operate as if they were the kings of the world. Emerging faith is more about going to people than waiting for people to come to us – being incarnational – Jesus came to this world- God showed his love by sending his son while we were still sinners.

    There are many different ideas on what emerging faith is all about. but this is a list of authors I like to read and whose ideas impact me:

    Mike Frost
    Alan Hirsch
    Dan Kimball
    Ash Barker (Urban Neighbours of Hope)
    Shane Claibourne
    John Smith

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    • I have to agree with Ian. Jesus said in John 14:9…he who has seen Me has seen the Father…and in John 10:30, I and the Father are One. Jesus often spoke of the Father, pointed to the Father and prayed to Him. He can relate to a woman and her babies, or a hen and her chicks because He created those ways of a woman. But at no time did He or anyone refer to Him in the sense He is feminine. And like you said, no, “God” is not a boy’s name, it is not a name at all, really, just what He is called. But most importantly, He is Jesus – Immanuel, God with us.

      Ian mentioned the confusion in gender and to that I will add it is more than likely the same lying and deceiving spirit that brought us “feminism”. In so many areas the man and his role is taken out of the family, out of church, out of society, and the importance or emphasis is put on the woman. It is wrong and out of balance with God’s perfect plan.

      I don’t know of any time in history that the world was known as Christendom, or that it was the center of any village. What you are speaking in this area sounds a lot like the kingdom now or dominion movement that believes Christians are to take the world for Christ, setting up His kingdom and until so, He cannot return. And some believe, Manifest Sons, that some Christians will eventually manifest the deity of Christ here on earth and there will be no second coming to the earth. Both beliefs are dead wrong. 2 Thessalonians 3 speaks of the great falling away or in some translations, the great apostasy. We are witnessing a decline in Christianity because it has been prophesied that it would take place. It is unfortunate and scary, but it is true and there is nothing we can do to change it. So when you say – fundamental shifts – what exactly are you meaning?

      The way we are to live, preach the gospel, pray, worship, etc. can never change from what we are taught in the word. Not because of time or season or society or what is believed to be “acceptable”. These things will change. God never changes. This is why in 2 Timothy 4:2 Paul told Timothy to “preach the word! Be ready in season and out”, and continuing into v 3 “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine…” Jesus came as Savior, some will repent of their sins and make Him Lord and Savior, others will not. There is a difference in a believer and a non-believer, and the word tells us time and again throughout. And it tells us what will happen to those who do not follow Jesus Christ – eternal hell. Those who make their own doctrine will end up in the same place. This is why the new testament warns us again and again of false teachers! It is one thing to say there is a better way, but God’s ways are not our own and we cannot change what He has set up. His word is everlasting, as Jesus is the word made flesh. John 1.

      I would suggest you take these teachings, get your bible and a good concordance and do some research on your own. Lay aside the book reading for a time and see what comes of the research. Because the things you have stated in your response do not line up with what the scriptures teach us and the word of God is the only text we need as it gives us all we need to be complete in Christ.

      Thanks for your input! 🙂

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  18. If we start at the beginning we note that God made men and women in His image, the woman being made from the man, yet still in the image of God. This means that womens femininity actually comes from the man, and from God. Women also have a degree of masculinity too, yet the issue is the clear distinction between the two, which God ordained.

    Acknowledging that feminity has it’s origin in God and then man, is one thing. To confuse gender is another.

    Jesus and the Apostles always spoke of God in male terms. Some could mock this and say that they had a limited understanding, confining God to only male attributes and ignoring the feminine, but that’s bcos they don’t know what true masculinity is to begin with.

    The spirit behind the gender confusion in liberal ‘theology’ is the same filthy spirit which confuses young people about their gender, and justifies homosexuality.

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  19. Ian your generalisations and willingness to resort to abuse are unhelpful in this discussion – calling a legitimate theological stance a filthy spirit which leads to confusion is not only immature but is also going against the spirit of my engagement with you and other posters on this blog.

    Galatians 3:28 tells us that in Christ there is neither male nor female we are all one – and if that is true of us as adopted children of God then how much more so for God ‘him’self? God is neither male nor female, however with our limited understanding and the limitations of our languages we are unable to address God accept in terms of gender…this does not mean that God has a gender!

    Your mocking of me and the things I believe do not endear your position to me. less of the mocking and more engagement in a respectful manner would be appreciated.

    Peace

    Greg

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  20. Hey Greg, I’ve read your posts at ‘Groupsects’ and you’re not offended by every sexual perversion that is justified there, but you’re offended that i would identify gender confusion toward God and the subsequent gender confusion as a filthy spirit?

    Re: “this does not mean that God has a gender!”

    Are you saying that Jesus is not God? For He is God and Man.

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  21. Greg, you’re saying that in Jesus calling God His Father He didn’t really mean that He is His Father, the word Father just being for our benefit so we would understand it better?? Understand what better? That Jesus was actually teaching that God is not male or female??

    The ‘kindest’ thing to say about your position is that you position yourself above Jesus Christ.

    I don’t accept your contributions as a ‘discussion’ , i see them as blasphemies.

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  22. and yet we have Galatians 3:28 – neither male nor female, which is obviously about the human position in Christ. We humans obviously do not lose our gender identification when we become Christians…I am still a man…and my wife is still a woman – but in Christ there is no gender distinction.

    Tell me which gender is God when humans are made in God’s image? Is it the man who is made in God’s image or is it the woman?…if both then how can God be either a woman or a man? God does not have a gender Ian.

    Jesus lived in a patriarchal time when a persons identity came to them through their father.

    I do not place myself above Jesus – and my positions are hardly blasphemous – good grief Ian get out of the 15th Century and have half a brain about the literary and cultural frameworks within which the bible texts were written.

    What about when God describes the way he feels about Israel as being like a lactating woman (Isaiah 49:15)? Does that make God a woman? of course not – so just because God is described as being male does not make God male.

    IF God is male then women do not share in the Image of God and that my friend is far more blasphemous than saying God has no gender

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    • Greg, it was your first comments that made us both think you questioned God in the female sense, nearly to the point that you regard God as a woman at times. We are limited in our understanding in some things, as our ways are not His, and neither is our thinking. God is neither male nor female but has characteristics of both. God created Adam first in His image and Eve came out of Adam. Still, we regard Him as Father and it is appropriate to do so. He certainly is not mother and should never be regarded as such, even tho He has feelings of a mother toward her children. He “being-ness”, if you will, is far about that of our own.

      What did you mean by this statement in context to our discussion – the literary and cultural frameworks within which the bible texts were written.
      Does this mean that some things written in the bible no longer apply?

      I would appreciate a response to my earlier comments to you as a lot of thought went into them.

      Let’s watch our words here, guys.

      thanks!

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  23. The only spirit that objects to God as Father and insists that God be related to as a genderless ‘it’ is an evil spirit.

    So is Greg’s claim that there is no salvation, just different proximities to Christ.

    On God’s ‘maleness’ : Jesus is the only begotten Son of God from eternity. Before He was incarnate He was the Son with His Father.

    Only a demon takes exception to this, and they do, so vehemently.

    Just to discuss it makes me feel ill, it is so perverted.

    M’Kayla, as i’m a visitor here i’ll refrain from saying more.

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    • Ian, I invited you into this conversation because I know you have valuable input. When I said “watch the words” I meant let’s be careful this doesn’t go personal and we end up attacking each other. We knew there were differences when we chose to discuss it. So, aside from personal attacks – SAY IT! 🙂

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  24. one more:

    Some take certain scriptures which talk about God ‘mothering’ to try and prove that He is genderless, yet a man can be mothering as well, especially if he has to, when there is no mother in a family. The man’s motherly role doesn’t make him less of a man, neither does God’s ‘mothering’ cause us to doubt His Fatherhood, and Christ’s Sonship.

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