The following came as a comment under one of my articles – a trip in charismania. There are so many similarities in our experiences. Again, another eye witness to the false prophetic, healing, charismatic, etc. Since I put this up I have noticed some misunderstanding about this testimony so I want to clarify for future or repeat readers. This is not a crack against Pentecostals. Nor is the author taking a stand against practices taught in the bible for prayer, forgiveness, sin, intercession, healing, etc. She is speaking from 35 years spent in the false and excesses of those teachings, which I refer to as charismania. Following the article is a great discussion that I had with someone who came upon this article. It was an opportunity that I had to explain the differences and hash it out a little more. If time permits, you may want to have a look at our discussion in the comments section.
mk
I love to see people coming out and not going in…..to all this deception and craziness. For me it was 35 years! More Pentecostal than the Pentecostals! I ‘ministered’ in many areas and travelled the world….until I began to cry out for God to show me His truth through the Holy Spirit.
There were too many strange and bizarre happenings based on experience that didn’t line up with the Word of God. Satan and his demons always made sure all my expectations were fulfilled in the areas of feeling warm and fuzzy and causing supernatural things to happen. After all the Bible describes him as an angel of light….that makes it difficult to tell the difference between truth and deception….that is of course if one is not measuring everything by the Word.
I worked in the area of ‘breaking generational curses’….’setting people free from freemasonry, cults, sickness etc’ I was recognised as a’prophet’ and a lot of the ’stuff’ I forecast was totally true……(BUT coming from demonic powers). I ‘delivered’ people from demons and took them back in their memory so they could be healed by ‘jesus’.
I could go on and on but there is no need and the only reason I share this much is to try and help others who are deceived like me. Now, after having studied the Word, like I should have done in the first place instead of looking for experiences and listening to men, I know without a doubt….I was operating under demonic guidance and was nothing but a clairvoyant and deceived person. There are no generational curses, we cant use excuses for our behaviour and need to call it sin and repent…there are however consequences for making ungodly choices but Jesus became that curse for us (and anyway it was God who ordained curses and blessings for a certain time and generation in the old Testament) when He died on the cross.
We cannot ’stand in the gap’ as it were and repent on behalf of our country or another person….only that person can repent for his own sins. We cannot ‘bind’ satan or demons..that is taken from twisted scripture. The only time satan is bound is in Revelation by an angel and thrown into the pit. You cannot ‘break the power of freemasonry’ over someone….you do not have that power! Reading through screeds of renunciation papers will not set anyone free! The only way they can be freed is by God in His sovereign grace giving them the gift of repentance….that’s right, we even have to rely on Him for that!
We can’t ‘heal’ people from memories in their past…..the jesus who appears to comfort is a counterfeit and no where in scripture does it say we are to try and do that. Paul says…this one thing I do…..FORGETTING what lies behind, I press on, toward the goal. We are to lay our burdens down ….not go searching deep within our souls for past hurts and wounds. We are not to seek self satisfaction or to try and love ourselves…(that all based on man and psychology) We already love ourselves…too much….. but we are to take up our cross daily and follow Christ.
We are not to use some cultish babble in our prayers to God, Paul was chastising the Corinthian church for going back to their pagan ways and speaking in ecstatic tongues so they could have a mind altering experience. The Mormons and different cults and religions do this today….why oh why would we want to do this and waste hours in deception thinking we are talking to God when Jesus showed us plainly how we are to pray. “Our Father who art in Heaven”
Oh there is so much more….the totally plain and simple reason for all that happened during that soooo special time in history was to prove Jesus was the Messiah come to earth as had already been foretold many years ago………and the miracles for the Jews, but they still didn’t believe, so the Gentiles were grafted in.
To all those who have ‘come out’ I say “Praise God” but make sure you study the Word and grow in the ways of God. To those of you who are searching, can I please say…..don’t hang around any longer, get yourself out of that Pentecostal environment as fast as you can. We are living in a time like never before and we have been warned so many times that this was going to happen. The worst part is people don’t want the truth, they are listening to seducing spirits.
Remember everything we need to live this life in a Godly way is in His Word. He has spoken through it and doesn’t need messed up men and women to add to His Word. It is finished! All we need for life and Godliness is there.
Blessings
m'kayla's korner 
I pity those who think they know it all and have done it all. I was born into a Pentecostal family and have attended Pentecostal churches my entire life. I ventured into many other denominations and sat through their services. I don’t limit my God to one denomination as being the only way. What is tiring and fruitless is when people have a bad “experience” in one setting and immediately begin bashing it.
I am a Spirit-filled Christian who has been blessed by God’s Spirit with many of the gifts listed by Paul in 1 Cor. 12:7-11. The Spirit of God gave me the gifts of speaking in tongues, interpreting tongues, prophecy, words of wisdom, word of knowledge, healing, faith, discerning of spirits with working of miracles being the only one I have not operated in as of yet. You see, I prayed to the Holy Spirit asking him to bless me with being used in all the gifts.
When one starts quoting Paul, they had best take into account ALL that Paul taught and not just piece meal parts that suit individual ideas and stances. Paul also said that he spoke in tongues more than them all. He desired instead that people prophecy so as to edify the entire body not just self. When one speaks or prays in tongues, they are talking to God or speaking from God. If interpretation is given, then it is a prophecy. When one speaks in tongues without interpretation, it serves to edify the individual only.
If God is a trinity of Father, Son, and Spirit, then God the Spirit gave us these gifts as Paul so aptly points out in his letter to the Corinthians. His address was not rebutting the Corinthian church for chanting pagan rites but rather giving them order and decorum as to how to and when to speak in tongues in the local congregation in reference to prophecy.
If you find that a gift of the Holy Spirit is “not for you,” then don’t go around bashing those who do. Follow God as far as you allow your faith to go. His way are not your ways and are higher than your finite, carnal mind can fathom. The Spirit of God knows the deep things of God and will reveal truth to those that seek him. He leads us and guide us in all truth – including operating in the gifts, as it were.
If you want to move mole hills instead of mountains, go for it. God will use you. My faith is growing enough to cast mountains into the sea. I don’t limit my God. If he can use a donkey to talk to Balaam, I think he can talk to other believers through “speaking in different kinds of tongues and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines” (1 Cor. 12:10-11) or through prophecy, as Paul urged the church to do.
I recommend that you go to God in prayer about it. If not, keep on marching and doing the work you were called to do – destroy the works of satan and seek/save that which was lost. In the same manner as Jesus was sent to the earth, we are sent out in like manner by him.
God bless.
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JD, no one here is debating the gifts so I don’t know why you are focused in that area. We are not “bashing” others. From our own experience as is discussed quite a bit on this blog, we have found certain methods or teachings to not be truly biblical and very dangerous to believers. Believe me, it was more than just a bad moment – much more.
Yes, there are gifts of the Spirit, of course! There is also many who operate in false gifts and the church, referred to here as charismania, and has followed after those gifts without questioning or testing them as we are urged to do in the bible. That is the difference and the problem and is the reason for this woman’s testimony and mine, and others who come here. There is the truth and there is the lie. We are separating the two, one from the other giving warnings accordingly. We have an over abundance of false signs and wonders and the church is too mesmerized and caught up in the wow of the moment to see difference.
I would suggest you do a little more careful reading before you draw wrong conclusions and do yourself what you have accused us of here. One thing you said jumps out at me, that you pray to the Holy Spirit. Where in the bible are we taught to do such a thing? Jesus prayed to the Father so why are you doing other than what was taught by your Lord? He never told us to pray to anyone other than the Father. I would guess you heard or were taught by someone else to pray that way and have followed along without checking the word of God to see if that is a true and valid method of prayer. It is not. And if you continue you stand the chance of deception just as we have warned against because you are listening to man and not to God through His word.
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Also, JD you may want to read the story of Balaam and his donkey as the point is not that the donkey spoke, but WHY he did. But again, those who are carried away by the “miraculous” have erroneously placed the focus on the fact that the donkey spoke and miss the point entirely! Numbers 22.
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I wasn’t pointing a direct finger at one person per se. But your guest author made claims that were obviously not fact checked with the Bible. I counter each one with examples from the Word.
1. “we cannot stand in the gap…” Bible example – Psalm 106:23 “Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood in the breach before Him, To turn away His wrath from destroying them.”
2. “we cannot…repent on behalf of our country…”
Bible examples – Moses
a. “Pardon our iniquity and sin, and take us as your inheritance.” Exodus 34:9
b. “Pardon the iniquity of this people, I pray, according to the greatness of
Your mercy, just as You have forgiven this people, from Egypt even until
now.” Numbers 14:19
Nehemiah – “Lord God of heaven, O great and awesome God, You who keep Your Covenant and mercy with those who love You and observe Your commandments…I pray before You now…and confess the sins of the children of Israel, which we have sinned against You. Both my fathers house and I have sinned. We have acted very corruptly against You, and have not kept the commandments, the statutes, nor the ordinances which You commanded…” Nehemiah 1:5-7
Jeremiah – “O Lord, though our iniquities testify against us, do it for your Namesake; for our backslidings are many. We have sinned against You.” Jeremiah 14:7
Daniel – “O Lord, great and awesome God, who keeps His Covenant and mercy with those who love Him and with those who keep His commandments, we have sinned and committed iniquity, we have done wickedly and rebelled, even departing from Your precepts and Your judgments. Neither have we heeded Your servants the prophets who spoke in Your Name…O Lord, to us belong shame of face, to our kings, our princes and our fathers, because we have sinned against You…we have not obeyed the voice of the Lord our God, to walk in His Laws, which He set before us by His servants the prophets. Yes, all Israel has transgressed Your law, and has departed so as not to obey Your voice; therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses, the servant of God, has been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him…Let Your anger and Your fury be turned away from Your city Jerusalem, your holy mountain; because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people are a reproach to all those around us…O Lord, hear! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, listen and act!…” Daniel 9:4-19
Ezra – “O my God, I am too ashamed and humiliated to lift up my face to You my God; for our iniquities have risen higher than our heads, and our guilt is grown up to the heavens…We have forsaken Your commandments…” Ezra 9:6-10
These men did repent for the nation of Israel. They thought about what the country was doing and changed the minds of the people because of their sins. Your guest author is correct in that each individual had to confess sin. Repenting is not confessing sin. It is changing one’s mind about what one is doing.
Moses did stand in the breach or gap or hole or whatever other word you want to substitute for “gap.” Had he not intercede, which is what the phrase means, God was going to destroy the nation of Israel and start over with Moses and would still have kept his word to Abraham.
If Jesus said that whatever you BIND on earth will be bound in heaven and loosed on earth will be loosed in heaven, then we can “bind” the works of satan. No, we don’t physically bind satan, a spirit, but we bind or stop the works he does. This we can do through the power of God. Jesus said that his mission is to destroy the works of satan. Didn’t Jesus tells us he gave all power over the enemy? Not some or a little but all power? So, we operating in the power of God do set people free from bondage. The guest author is right in that we, as humans, cannot do anything. We must rely on God, who gives us the power to tread upon scorpions and serpents and have all power over the enemy.
“There are no generational curses…” is a powerful statement that I venture to say this person cannot truthfully back up. Has this person ever been to a third world country and seen curses in action that have carried on to the third and fourth generation that had nothing to do with the children and grandchildren sinning? I have been there and seen these curses in action. They do exist. People can be set free from them. If there is so such thing as a generational curse, then SIN does not exist because it is passed down from Adam to Seth to Noah to Abraham to David to all of mankind. There is none righteous. No, not one, or do we forget the words of Paul here too? Again, humans cannot do anything without God, but we have power given to us by God. We must act in faith to do what he commands us to do. It is his power that makes it happen, but he chooses to use earthen vessels to do his will. The only human never to experience a generational curse was Jesus. He was not born into sin, but he became the curse for us that we might be free from the curse of the law – the curse of sin and death.
And people being healed from their pasts…that is a good one. God forgave a person of their past sin when they accepted Jesus, this is true. Some people struggle with their past as they are reminded of it by satan. It is not the “past” that are healed of. It is the emotional pain they attach to it that gets healed. There are emotional pains. People do need consolation from their Father. He does “bind up the broken hearted [emotionally troubled and saddened]” as Isaiah prophesied and Jesus stood up in a synagogue and said was sent here by God to do.
If your guest came out of darkness and into the marvelous light, praise God. That person has been set free. No problem. But to make unfounded statements as that person did is scary.
If you think this stuff doesn’t happen and is all in the “miraculous” you say, then you have probably never been to countries where the supernatural happens all the time. People around the world know the power of demons, and when they see the power of God through the “miraculous,” they don’t doubt his power.
But I digress…..
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The comment was not written by a guest writer, just someone who stopped in and read my articles. We have the same experiences. On a personal note, to know that someone else had been involved in the same or nearly the same ministries as I have, but for 35 years – world traveled, ministered, etc. blew my mind. Because in the ministries I was in, I know without a doubt I would not have survived long. I would have died or gone insane. This testimony moved me to tears and I knew that only God in His great mercy and forgiveness could cause a person so deceived and practicing false gifts for such a length of time to open her eyes one day to the startling truth.
What we are discussing here on this blog is the extra biblical teachings of crazy people – heretics, apostates, all things false, looking like the real thing, but influenced and empowered by demons and demons only. It is a false light that uses the name of Jesus Christ, one of the false gifts, tongues, prophecy, healing, prayer, intercession, dreams and visions, on and on. The reason why I know these to be false is because I was involved very deeply. Coming out of it was not just a matter of a resignation and a walk out the door. It was a struggle, a battle that I fought against for a long period of time, wondering if I would come out, wondering if I would survive it. And, the knowledge that came, after the research, after I took my bible and a concordance and comparing teachings and claims and prophetic words against the truth of the bible, to find that I had followed after a god, not the one of salvation, but another, false demonic power that poses as the Holy Spirit. Let me tell you there is no grief like that – none.
Like I said, if you would take some time and read a little you will better understand what is being said in these writings and comments. It is clear we are not comparing the same things.
We are not called to stand in the gap to effect change through massive gatherings of prayer and fasting. Why? Because these events say “look at us and how great we are in our prayers and in our fasting”, when instead, Jesus told us to go into the closet and shut the door and pray to your Father who hears you in secret. And when we fast to not appear as tho we are. Indeed, the intercessors of the OT had a different purpose than we do today. Only repentance to salvation changes a person. It is the only way a nation will change. I have written about this issue and you can read it and find my research in what you read under the category for Lou Engle and the other Prayer.
Healing from the past – what is being referred to here is a method called inner healing or sozo or theophostics. I have participated in this – been trained and have lead others through it. Believe me this is very dangerous territory as it involves visualization methods used in memories and asking “jesus” to speak or to appear in that vision. Is this taught in the bible? No. It is not. But, it IS taught and practiced in new age therapy. I did it years ago. The only difference is the ministry slaps the name of jesus on there and packages it as “from God”. HA! This is why we warn against it here. So, again, different from what you thought as we would agree with your points. We are never told to visit the past or to heal memories, but to move forward, forgetting what is behind. You will find one article on this under the category – inner healing.
Generational curses or sin meaning their effect on the believer. There are ministries out there, most rooted in the word of faith, or positive confession groups that teach and sell tons books, cd’s, etc. that teach believers can be cursed or affected by generational sin of unbelieving family members, word curses, even the curse of a witch. We cannot as it goes against scripture. Galatians 3:10-13. See the cat for Gen and other Curses.
I don’t agree that we bind the work of satan with our words, but with our actions in following Christ. I believe he is defeated at every salvation, at every act a Christian makes or does for God – every help, every prayer, whatever the calling or moment that presents itself, each time we stand for God. Satan is allowed to roam around and deceive who he will until he gets tossed into the pit that he so rightly deserves.
As to your comment about the supernatural stuff happening, have YOU seen it personally? Because all supernatural experiences are not from God. Been there, done that. I have time and time again heard these claims made by false evangelists, teachers and prophets and usually they claim 1000’s healed, saved, delivered. To this I would say if it is so, praise God. But, just because someone says it is true, does not mean that it is. An another note, we must make sure the Jesus they confess is actually the one and only Son of the living God and not the imposter. You say people around the world know the power of demons. Yes, they do and right here in America, too. I am one of them. So, see, I don’t need a trip to a third world country. I’ve lived the lie and seen the truth. This is why I have my blog. So, I read this person’s story of 35 years, all crammed into a few paragraphs. Maybe that is why they seemed unfounded to you, because there wasn’t much explanation. But to me – wow – it didn’t need to. And so I used her experience as a testimony to others.
Did you read the story of Balaam and his donkey? Do you see my point? Did you do your research in praying to the Holy Spirit? Be careful and be sure of what you believe and repeat as truth.
Let this be a lesson and a time of learning for all of us. When we communicate we need to get an understanding of what is truly being said before we jump to conclusions. As we see here we were not doing that from the beginning. Now maybe you can see better to understand and join us who have been eye witnesses in praying for those who are deceived to come out.
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Just saw this thread, and i think everyone has made valid points.
The phrase that comes to me, Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Just some points:
* Binding demons. To bind means to exert authority over. It’s not abnormal to command demons. It’s better to cast them out, obviously, yet there are times when we have to command them to keep quiet, like when a person manifests in a meeting. That’s an example of binding.
* Repenting on behalf of others. In the scriptures cited they interceded for others, but it is not possible to repent on behalf of another anymore than it would be possible to believe on behalf of another.
*Casting out demons. There is the real thing. I wonder why the most popular preachers today do not cast out demons? Unbelief? Compromised life?
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Hi Ian.
Yes, there is a right way which is the biblical way, and then there is the crazy but very popular way of charismania, which never works. I am glad he popped in because it gave us a chance to compare the two.
I’ve heard some very strange things said to the devil and his demons in the areas of binding and casting out. I used to wonder who stayed up all night to think those things up. So why doesn’t it work for the popular preachers – you nailed it – and I would add to that a compromised gospel message or overall teaching. I always think of the story where the demon recognized two of the disciples, but that third guy, never heard of him and he was without the power and authority the other two had in their faith that the demon would otherwise obey. 🙂 We have been told when the demons don’t come out right away, or seem that it does not, it is because there are more than one, the person having subjected themselves to so many different areas of satan and therefore true deliverance takes time. I’ve been told this by ministry leaders and pastors. Hmmmm…see? Another ‘where did they get that one’?
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I skimmed this whole thing and am glad that JD made the points he or she did because I was too worried that you would as Ian put it “throw the baby out with the bathwater.” Surely the pentecostal or charismatic movement has taken a wrong turn at Pentecost or parked there or whatever, but if I were to take literally the things which you discounted I’d be guilty of Pentecostalism and Charismania myself.
The Word of God says that satan must be bound… the true ministers of God and every believer in fact has the power and authority to bind satan… (ref. Luke 10:19-20) We have been given power over ALL power of the enemy and the spirits are subject unto us.
We are called to wage spiritual warfare and we can overcome our enemy, why because greater is he that is in us than he that is in the world. 1 John 4:4
Now the problem with most charismatics and other false religious teacher is that 1. they are yet in their sin and therefore don’t have power over the spirits in themselves much less any others (ref. the seven sons of Sceva). 2. they seem to think the power is in themselves or in the words they speak or in certain ceremonial observances and they forget that we hold this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. 2 Corinthians 4:7
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The testimony is a warning for those who cross the line as many of us have. I’m not sure what you mean by >>but if I were to take literally the things which you discounted I’d be guilty of Pentecostalism and Charismania myself.>> This testimony and the comments discount only the lies and false practices supported by charismania, not the true gifts of the Holy Spirit, nor the true power of God.
JD brought out great points and I am glad for the communication that transpired between us. In the end, it is as you have also pointed out. There is a huge difference in what is true -the undeniable power of God; and the false – nothing but hot air.
Blessings to you.
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I believe that your intentions and the purpose of them are genuine. I was amening you right along, but what I was saying was that there were some points I thought needed clarifying and between you and JD and Ian the matter was more fully explained.
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Called Soldier wrote: “We are called to wage spiritual warfare and we can overcome our enemy, why because greater is he that is in us than he that is in the world. 1 John 4:4”,
Hi CS, These words are interpreted differently by different people. There IS a war, indeed. I want to understand it and do it as per our LORD Jesus and His apostles understood it and did, which is very different to the way it’s understood by many today.
E.g. Our LORD didn’t cast territorial spirits out, nor did He bind them or come against them in anyway. As the Father led Him he precisely cast out demons, but only from those who wanted to be free.
When our LORD was directly faced with the hindering plans and intent of satan He exerted His authority and pushed him aside, like the temptation in the wilderness, and when Peter tried to convince not to go the cross.
Myself, when i discern the enemy hindering or trying to spoil the plan of God in my life or in those i’m praying for, i directly address him in Jesus name and command him to desist and move aside, and break his plans. Amd i’ve seen the power of God on our behalf time and time again, this way.
But this is different to having a ‘demon consciousness’, a fixation with them.
On ‘the shield of faith’ over ‘every fiery dart of the enemy’ : we barely know the importance of our faith for protection. We know that for God’s elect, it IS satan’s desire to destroy us physically and to destroy our faith. He would love to kill you. Nothing would give him more pleasure. What’s stopping him doing that? The power of God on our behalf. It’s a miracle, a demonstration of power and grace that we live even one day in this evil world. We need to be wise.
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Thank you Ian!
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You use terminology that apparently is obvious to you, but I personally don’t understand the context in which it is being used. Please elaborate on what you mean by territorial spirits and what you in your mind feel needs to be differentiated from what Christ said we had power over. I think we should be very careful when changing the word all… Christ said I give you power over ALL the power of the enemy and nothing shall by any means harm you.
Now if we change the word all or append something to it, then what do we do with the verse He is faithful unto ALL that call upon Him? Who healeth ALL thy diseases and pardoneth ALL thy iniquites?
As for what we can cast out or bind, I’ll wait for you to clarify your point before responding.
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Hi! That’s simple. Territorial spirits (principalities) certainly do exist, in many Bible refs, like ‘prince of persia’ , and demons spoke to Jesus and begged Him that they would not be sent to another region, etc…
BUT, you never find one ref to Jesus or the Apostles ever praying against these principalities or trying to displace them.
Jesus DID HAVE the authority (and still does) to actually round up the devil and all his angels and cast the into the abyss just at one word, one command. He could have done that any time during His earthly ministry and they knew that. But that was not the Father’s plan, rather, thru His death to destroy and disarm them.
Why is there no example and no teaching in Scripture about waging war on and binding territorial principalities?
God’s wisdom is thru the Cross, and it is for us. The Cross has destroyed the enemy, and only thru the application of the cross in us, not loving our life even to death, do we have His overcoming victory over sin, the flesh and the devil.
What do you say?
The principle of a Biblical precedent is very important. Without a precedent we have no basis to believe something. E.g. There is no precedent/example of believers tithing in the NT, not one. This means that they did not tithe bcos they were not taught to tithe.
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This is all very interesting, but still the phrase territorial spirits does not appear in the Word of God, yet principalities does. Now these are the precise thing Paul encouraged us to fight against were principalities.
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12
Now certainly we know that the triumph of Christ over principalities was at the cross along with His triumph over everything else. If Christ had not went to the cross, endured the cross and rose again the third day as He said He would, We would not have power over sin or principalities or any such thing, but through His conquering we also reign with Him.
Another verse about principalities: And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Colossians 2:15.
Now what is a principality? A state ruled by a prince. A jurisdiction or territory ruled by a prince. Now someone who is given over to the devil is ruled by the prince of this world correct?
Alright… Let’s look at some examples as you say from the Word of God of some people ruled by the prince of this world and what happened when they met Jesus Christ.
The man in the tombs. Those spirits cried out when Jesus approached and pleaded with Him not to torment them. Jesus cast them out and they went into the swine and ran the whole herd into the sea (ref. Matthew 8:28-32).
The man in the synagogue with the unclean spirit cried out in the service and Jesus made it be quiet and come out of the man. Mark 1:23-27
Did anyone else cast out a spirit from a person who didn’t come to them for help? Paul cast the spirit of the woman who followed he and Silas for many days telling the people who they were. Acts 16:17-18
Note in the Acts account it says Paul said to the spirit; in case you would say these referred to demons or devils.
Now these weren’t bound. They were cast out. Which I never said we were to bind spirits in people, but Jesus gave us authority over them to cast them out.
No one would want to bind a spirit that is in someone, the thing to do is to get the spirit out of the person so that they it no longer has an influence in their lives. This isn’t accomplished by magic or by incantation, but by the power of God, through the spilled blood of Jesus Christ, carried out by the Holy Spirit working in the hearts and lives of mankind.
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called soldier, for the purposes of this article, a principality has spiritual control over the people living in that area. The process is to bind the principality from having influence, releasing the people from their blindness. It is believed (falsely) that if the principality is bound, the people living in that particular area will be able to “hear” and receive the gospel. Many do this binding thing, but never preach a word to the people. I have never bound a principality myself, as I do not believe we have biblical support or direction to do so. But there are some who believe this is their calling and travel from place to place binding, wasting their breath. Some go as far as commanding them out of the air. It’s nuts.
So you can see that it is different from casting out demons from an individual, and I agree with you on your points. Good work!
Hope that helps. The information you provided is great. Thank you for your contribution!
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Thank you for clarification. Again it is a terminology thing and not understanding the jargon used in the depths of the particular organization. I do apologize for answering without understanding.
Still we might pray that God bind the devil as we prepare for service or we may rebuke the devil in Jesus name as we prepare for the service. The Bible tells us the spirits are made subject to us through Christ name so we have power and authority over them, but again it’s not done for sport of fun or just because we happened along. Oh to recognize the Spirit of Truth and the spirit of error. Didn’t John write, there are many anti-christ spirits gone out into the world? This then makes this a time of great deception.
I don’t mean to take up a lot of room on your post… thank you for your patience with me.
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called, you didn’t take up a lot of room, so please don’t apologize. You are welcome here. It’s how we learn – together! A good point, to recognize the Spirit of Truth – yes, yes.
Blessings to you. 🙂
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Also as the matter goes about tithing you’re right in the sense that they didn’t pay ten percent, rather they brought all they had and laid it at the apostles feet. Nevertheless the churches in other places took up a collection for the Saints in Jerusalem. Hence Paul asking them for their contributions (refer to 2 Corinthians 9 for an instance of this).
Paul wrote: Every man according as he purposeth in his heart so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. 2 Corinthians 9:7
Beyond this note that Jesus taught His disciples: Give, and it shall be given unto you: good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. Luke 6:38
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Just on the ‘wrestling’ with principalities:
Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in heavenly places.
Eph 6:13 Therefore take unto you the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
The goal here is to stand. This means that the wrestling is bcos THEY come against us. We are not coming against principalities, looking for a fight with them, and then conquering them, which would mean stopping their activities. If you’ve fought a principality and ‘won’, then they could no longer do anything, right?
We are resisting them and having the victory in Christ when we don’t obey their suggestions. Simply don’t obey their word, or their suggestions, and submit yourself to God, then you’ve effectively wrestled with them and gotten the victory, by faith.
When we cast a demon out of a person they go and enter someone else. We’ve not ‘defeated’ the demon or rendered it powerless. Yet a great victory has been enforced in the life of that person.
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In the general concept of war in our understanding rarely do we totally eradicate a nation or people from the face of the earth. Generally victory in war is declared when you are able to displace them or take their territory or possessions from them.
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Good point, i agree, that’s what i’ve been saying.
Jesus and His Apostles are our examples in this. Jesus never drove the devil out of Israel nor did He engage in ‘warfare prayer’ binding the principalities over Israel, but as the Father directed Him He cast demons out of people. In THIS He was binding the strongman and robbing him.
The gospel and the spread of the Kingdom is never a case of negotiating or fighting with the devil and taking ‘his’ possessions ; that’s the wrong focus, the focus should only be on what the Father is doing. Again, Jesus and His Apostles are our ONLY example.
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Ian, I am sorry to report to you that Jesus and the apostles ARE NOT our ONLY example. The entire BIBLE is our example. You, sir, are on of those Christians who believe that the Old Testament serves no purpose because the old covenant is fulfilled in Christ.
Well, sir, let me inform you that you could stand to learn a lot from the mentors of the first 39 books of the Bible. You wondrous apostles and our Lord Jesus, whom you cite frequently, quoted extensively from the Old Testament scriptures.
Your beloved Paul only had the Old Testament to quote from and build YOUR case in the New Testament. In his days of Jewry, he lived out the OT to the extent it was possible, but Jesus got hold of him and showed him the error of his ways.
Did Paul ever say the OT was no good? Of course not, he said it was holy and given by God. It is the WORD OF GOD, His name is JESUS! Yes, JESUS fulfilled the law but didn’t do away with it. It’s still needed to bring the lost to Jesus. It points the sinner to the cross.
If there is never any taking back satan’s possessions, why did John say , “He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil [SATAN]” (1 John 3:8)?
You CANNOT destroy the works of any enemy without FIGHTING and TAKING POSSESSION! You agreed to that point with CS. Which is it sir?
Didn’t Jesus say, “Most assuredly, I say to you, HE WHO BELIEVES IN ME, the WORKS THAT I DO HE WILL DO ALSO; and GREATER WORKS THAN THESE HE WILL DO, because I go to My Father” (John 14:22)?
Ian, sir, I love you dearly as a brother in the Lord, but your doctrine is amiss, and you entrap others to believe this misguided theology. As Mkayla stated, I have to expose false teaching where I see it. As Paul said, “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Tim. 3:16-17).
Therefore, I give you proper doctrine (or instruct) you in the word of God, give reproof (test what you are saying), correct your misstated words (restoring to right state the meaning of the word), and instruct you in hermeneutics (rightly dividing the word of truth).
You, sir, play a dangerous game by implying that Christians are only to live by the New Testament (you made this claim that Christ and apostles are our ONLY examples). No, even Annanias and Sapphira ARE examples of what NOT to do!
Don’t mince your words and make them as doctrine or else you err with the Pharisees, “Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with [their] lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, [as] the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do” (Mark 7:6-8).
I have to address your take with tithing also. The act of tithing was an act of faith instituted by Abraham over 400 years before the Law of Moses (OT) was given to mankind. Do you not see that practices established in faith supercede the law? Or do you not heed the words of the APOSTLES PAUL, JAMES, and author of HEBREWS? They all speak of the FAITH of Abraham. He did it out of love for God. Now, Malachi chapter 3 has God talking to the Jews about robbing him of tithes and offerings? IF the giving of TITHES AND OFFERINGS is of great importance to God (so his people have things to eat and wear in the body of Christ), then how can YOU determine that giving tithes is of the past under the OT? TITHING was BEFORE the OT and exists AFTERWARDS IN THE NT?
Didn’t Jesus address tithing to the Pharisees? He said that they tithed down to the last mint leaf and “pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone” (Luke 11:42). If tithing was something that Jesus would have frowned upon and said was done away with, he would have stopped there and told them not to continue tithing. O ye of little faith!
Hey, if you want to settle for the level you are on in Christ, then by all means stay there and enjoy the limitation of blessing that comes there. Otherwise, open your heart a little more and let God take you higher in him from glory to glory. This goes for any and all who think this.
Tithing isn’t about paying the preacher or any pastor or church staff. It is a matter of faith that you give back to God a portion of what he’s given you in order that YOU may grow in him. It is an act of worship to God. Anyone who thinks that tithing is bogus needs to examine their heart and level of faith in God.
Remember that faith without works is dead! (James 2:26). It is impossible to please God without faith (Heb. 11:6). Yes we are saved by grace through FAITH and justified by FAITH and WORKS! There is no legalism here. When you are made a new creature in Christ, you now have the mind of Christ. You are to think on things above not earthly things.
Ian, do you know why Jesus didn’t give tithes? He DIDN’T grow anything or receive payment for teaching/preaching. If he had, he would have for two reasons: (1) he would have set the example for us to follow as an act of worship to God as had Abraham and (2) it was governed by the Mosaic Law.
May the God of peace bless you all and open the blind eyes and deaf ears to hear and see the truth of the word. Ciao.
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James,
You seem to be angry. Why are you attacking Ian?
I have to wonder how much you have read here on this blog or if you skimmed thru, found issues and hammered away in your anger. Listen, I do not claim to know everything. Neither do Ian or the others who come here and contribute. We discuss things. Many of us have been through some bad teaching and are finding our way out of that. You may not understand or have knowledge in that area, and if so then consider yourself blessed. We discuss doctrine and learn from each other. We have love and respect in knowing we may not always agree, but they are not considered points of separation.
You have sent 2 very long and somewhat complex comments. I have had to weed thru them to try to understand your basis. It is very helpful if you would quote from the person what you are debating. And please refrain from making the same comments on two separate threads.
A reminder – tithing is an area many Christians do not agree. Please, be considerate. It does not mean we are false teachers or are putting others in danger, it does not show a condition of the heart or it’s intent. Be careful. Like I said, we learn together here. I like the discussion, but there is one thing I insist on is genuine respect. And I will not part from that – ever.
If you would like to discuss tithing then let’s continue it on the discussion under the Ken Hagin article. Tithing was not a subject of the original article here, so I am shutting down further debate in that area.
James, you have said some things to Ian that I feel are out of line. I don’t appreciate that kind of talk here. Maybe this occurs on other blogs but not mine. We can disagree but we should never assume to know a person –
>>Ian, I am sorry to report to you; Well, sir, let me inform you that you could stand to learn a lot; Your beloved Paul; Therefore, I give you proper doctrine (or instruct) you in the word of God; You, sir, play a dangerous game>> —and so on. You sound prideful and I don’t like it. In addition, you have made some assumptions all on your own that are pretty shaky.
>>Ian, do you know why Jesus didn’t give tithes? He DIDN’T grow anything or receive payment for teaching/preaching. If he had, he would have for two reasons: (1) he would have set the example for us to follow as an act of worship to God as had Abraham and (2) it was governed by the Mosaic Law.>>
Is this your assumption?
>>Hey, if you want to settle for the level you are on in Christ, then by all means stay there and enjoy the limitation of blessing that comes there. Otherwise, open your heart a little more and let God take you higher in him from glory to glory. This goes for any and all who think this.<<
Another unnecessary comment.
If you take the time to make a post, be considerate. Or all of that time and energy will go to trash and not be read or considered by others. You decide.
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James, you said-
>>If there is never any taking back satan’s possessions, why did John say , “He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil [SATAN]” (1 John 3:8)?
You CANNOT destroy the works of any enemy without FIGHTING and TAKING POSSESSION! You agreed to that point with CS. Which is it sir? <<
I think the answer to this has been clearly stated. Yes, we take possession, but the argument is in HOW that is done. Please read the comments again for clarification. There is no point in repeating.
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James, my attempt here was not to debate, especially for the side of the charismatic, but to get clarity.
The fact that we don’t just go around doing something for nothing is valid. Neither do we destroy the devil. It says the works of the devil. The devil will have his part in the lake of fire will all those who follow his ways, but we are merely to war against him and by the power of Christ destroy his works.
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Calledsoldier,
Yes, i know we should give freely. There’s a BIG difference between tithing or enforced tithing, than with giving freely and being led by the Holy Spirit. God’s wisdom was to close down tithing for the church age bcos it promotes legalism and corruption and abuses, like “giving to God” ; need some money? then start a ‘ministry’ and teach a few saps that when they give their money to you they are giving to God and God will give them the increase. It ‘works’!
yes, Paul raised money for others but never for himself. He never desired anyones gold or silver and he taught that preachers who do ask people for money are false.
But my point was that much of christendom today practices things, like tithing, and binding principlities over nations or regions, which have absolutely no NT precedent or example. yet they’re taught as fact.
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Where did binding principles ever exist?
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Or I guess I should ask what in the old testament as a principle is ended and when?
Some things never had any bearing except obedience understandably, but as far as the principles in the Old Testament they are the same thing.
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When man realized his true importance. It’s part of the thinking that God can do nothing unless we tell Him to, or pave the way so that He can. Kingdom Now-Dominion, NAR, WOF false doctrine.
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Is it okay that I have no idea what you mean by NAR, Kingdom now-Dominion or WOF?
I do know that the Word of God does encourage us to ask though… James says ye have not because you ask not.
Maybe rather than explain what you don’t believe it would help me if you explained more what you do believe about spiritual warfare and petitioning God and the like. That might bring this to a quicker end.
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This is a great explanation on NAR (New Apostolic Reformation), Kingdom Now/Dominion and WOF (word of faith) that will help you understand their core doctrines, who the leaders are, etc. These “movements” are basically what I am exposing here in my own research and writing.
I make the effort to explain what I do see as truth under the word, not just what I don’t believe in. So I am not sure why you commented that I didn’t. Maybe there is a specific question…but aside from that I pretty much agree with Ian in this spiritual warfare issue, and I have expressed that. So, if I am missing something, please let me know.
Thanks
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I’m sorry if that sounded like an attack or a challenge rather it was a question. I am here as I said to learn so I was looking for a summation of what you believed not accusing you of not being clear in your previous comments or replies.
I merely wanted to know what you felt our place was in God’s moving and working in our behalf or for others we may be ministering or seeking to minister to and your stand on how we war and what we fight against and how.
If you feel you have said sufficient on these topics then that is well… I was just looking for a quick “sound bite” type response (I’m always trying to avoid doing a lot of reading as it does cost a lot of time.
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The article is quite brief. It’s more like an at a glance, not real wordy.
hehe – nothing coming out of me is quickly said.
Here’s a little run down –
Basically, WOF (word of faith) is the doctrine that believers have the God given power and authority to “speak things into existence” and that our words have genuine power to create, to bless, curse, etc. You will also find excesses in prosperity and healing as they teach God wants us all rich and healthy. It has been said that Ken Hagin plagiarized the workings of EW Kenyon who was actually New Age and taught his people from Kenyon’s claims. WOF is extremely popular and most all those on tv are involved, as are those in most of Charismania and healing rooms ministry (International Assoc. of Healing Rooms). There are said to be profound similarities in the wof, witchcraft and new age beliefs, namely in The Secret.
The New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) believes literally in the five offices of ministry, with emphasis on the Apostolic and Prophetic. These teachers claim that all believers are required of God to come under the leadership of the apostle, and some refer to him as “father”. They have little to no regard or respect for pastors. This is where the false prophetic movement comes in, as the prophet hears from God and the apostle carries it out. Being supporters of WOF, they too believe they have the power to create and heal, etc. and are heavily involved in the false personal prophetic means of evangelism which believes every one gets a word (a personal prophecy by way of another believer) from God. This is where we are hearing the – come here for the anointing, healing, touch, blah blah as people flock to places like Bethel in CA, or IHOP in MO, or these so called revivals like Lakeland or the long ago Toronto Blessing. Many of the false prophets we see in operation today are from the Toronto Blessing (1994) – Paul Cain, Bob Jones, John Paul Jackson, Mike Bickle and some others. Bob Jones is very well received and sought after false prophet. I think the NAR originated with C Peter Wagner who also influenced John Wimber (the Vineyard Churches) and YMAM (youth with a mission). Wagner is teamed with his false prophet Chuck Pierce. Cindy Jacobs is also aligned with them and is considered a prophet to the nations. Dutch Sheets used to be in that mix and it was rumored that he was to take over Wagner’s position, altho I am not sure where he stands with them now. He has his own stuff going on and is in the process of an “awakening” tour going throughout America. We can see this NAR movement popping up in many areas, some of them are well known, and some are not.
Kingdom Now or Dominion is out of these movements but believes we are to take the kingdom of God now, here on earth. Until believers finally recognize their true place and take the kingdom, Christ cannot return. This is where the seven mountains of societal influence comes in, as they believe we are to take and effect those seven areas for Christ. They utilize methods of the false prophetic and word of faith to accomplish this goal. Some are beginning to separate from the need for repentance, no longer seeing man as a sinner.
Manifest Sons of God teaches believers will actually overcome sin and death and embody Christ, removing the necessity of Christ’s bodily return to earth. Todd Bentley, Rick Joyner, Mike Bickle (IHOP), Patricia King are some names who believe and support this. You will see the 24/7 Tabernacle of David/harp and bowl type prayer method. If you look closely, Jesus disappears from their so called prophecies and teachings.
In these movements or whatever we can call them, they believe in the manifest presence of God or the Holy Spirit, that He can be felt, experienced and even passed on to others thru the laying on of hands. They tend to give much emphasis on spiritual experience, dreams and visions, and little to no importance on the bible. These teachings take God from His true position and bring Him down to man’s level, while at the same time elevating man. There is very little true love of the brethren as most are interested only in getting the next touch, the next move, the next prophetic word. It is satanic bondage.
There is quite a bit more that can be said and that is why my comment about reading more on my blog, it’s what I expose. I can understand if you don’t have the time.
I believe that God works in our behalf related to His great love and mercy and that we are to speak the word, teach the word, the gospel, allowing the Holy Spirit to convict the hearer. I believe in prayer as in requesting from God for our needs and the needs of others, as we see how Jesus prayed. I don’t believe that we decree or declare or prophesy before God or that we speak things into existence. Or that we call down principalities, as demons and satan have permission to be where they are. I believe in the simple teachings of the bible, not the twisted, convoluted lies of money-and fame-hungry man.
I was confused because I though that we covered this in the previous discussion and I wasn’t sure how to answer you because I thought I had said it. My mistake. I hope this helps to clarify, if not let me know. 🙂
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And, it’s no coincidence that the main proponents of the NAR teaching on taking nations for God thru spiritual warfare are THEMSELVES taken captive by demons : Paul Cain, Bob Jones etc… While ‘battling’ and ‘fighting’ the principalities, the demons simply had to whisper temptation in their ears and they succumbed to the very spirits they were railing against, which must be a form of entertainment for the devil.
Some of the people who perform the ‘warfare’ rights and dances etc. are actually getting possessed of demons as they do it, screaming like banshees, voodoo drums and all. Yes, Rick Joyner’s church, to be specific.
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Just in case it is missed, I am shutting down the “tithing” portion of this conversation as it is not part of the topic. I have redirected that conversation to the Ken Hagin article for now as it better fits that discussion. So, if you would like to continue, please comment there. https://mkayla.wordpress.com/2009/11/18/the-dangerous-teaching-methods-of-kenneth-e-hagin-junker-jorge/
The topic remains open for other points made in the original article.
Thanks for your cooperation.
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