If this doesn’t make people wake up and see what Bill Johnson is really about, I wonder what it WILL take.
Together at IHOP (Mike Bickle) with John Arnott from the famed Toronto Blessing –
Remember Lakeland?? Think it’s over? Not a chance.
Neither event experienced a true move of God and certainly not the Holy Spirit!
Bill Johnson and John Arnott will join Wes Hall and Allen Hood for our awakening meetings next Monday to Wednesday (December 7–9).
In light of the spiritual awakening at IHOP–KC, we invited Bill and Beni Johnson and John and Carol Arnott to be with us. Because of their extensive experience in stewarding the move of the Spirit we have asked for their input, counsel, and wisdom. Bill and Beni Johnson are senior pastors of Bethel Church in Redding, California. John and Carol Arnott are the founding pastors of Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship, which experienced a historic outpouring of the Holy Spirit that began in 1994, known as the Toronto Blessing.
They will join Wes Hall and Allen Hood in leading the nightly meetings which will began at 6:00pm. We will have additional meetings on Tuesday and Wednesday at 9:00am.
m'kayla's korner 
This is a real cracker of a statement
Because of their extensive experience in stewarding the move of the Spirit we have asked for their input, counsel, and wisdom.
So now the Holy Spirit submits to the Johnsons???. Not!!!!!
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Yeah, I had a similar response. “stewarding the spirit indeed” Like Dutch Sheets some time ago claimed they were “hosting His presence”.
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I just can’t help but notice…. its all about the ” man”, is there any room at all for God? I guess not.
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Hi Ray. It’s all about the flesh and elitism, isn’t it? More “come and get some”.
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M’Kayla – I tried to watch a little of the video of this move of “God” from IHOP, I couldn’t watch past 10 minutes (which was entirely singing in tongues). It’s brought up another question re tongues for me. The worship leaders “tongues” grated on my nerves so bad.
I’m not cessationist. Where can I ask about this? YouAreAllBrothers has a thread related. Should I go there?
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Ian does believe in this gift as directed in the bible. Redeemed Hippee also has a recent conversation on her blog that the three of us were involved in. We can get one going here too. It’s been a bad area for me because of my experience and I’ve kind of avoided getting into it. As far as singing in tongues, I don’t find it in the word. And I would think it would be along the same lines as speaking in a tongue aloud – not done in public unless there is an interpreter. You can ask your question here or send me the link and we can put up a post to start a conversation, or you can go to one of their sites. It is totally up to you. 🙂
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I posted at Ian’s site on a thread called “How do I know if I have the gift of tongues?” It seemed more consistent to post there (I am an organizational freak).
But please, I would like your input.
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I added it there last night.
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http://www.ihop.org/Publisher/Article.aspx?ID=1000060205
the link from IHOP
This buzz word, “awakening” is really on my last nerve. Our Lord never spoke to us that we would be in need of an awakening!!!
When in the bible does the Holy Spirit only visit people in specific areas? Why would a person, believer or not, need to drive 1,000 miles to be a part of what the Spirit is doing now, in this place?
See, the clincher is the claim to healings – mind and body. People see that and think it has to be God. Listen, it makes me think on it, too. But, I have been under the influence of this spirit they claim is holy. It is not. It is not God. Sorry. The reason why I know this is that their claims to what the spirit does and how it moves, on who, and when, etc. cannot be verified in scripture. Sad, but true.
If it would be that the Holy Spirit moved on the Body, it would happen to all believers all over the world, from the cities to the bush. No one would be left out because God does not leave us or forsake us. And we would not have to travel over to where it is.
A similar experience happened at Rick Joyner’s “school” some time ago. Why the kids? Does anyone ask that?
So, save your gas, save your sanity, your cash and your relationship with God. Don’t fall for this. And pray for these people – that their eyes would be opened to the truth. Our walk with Christ is spiritual, His kingdom in not of this world. The Holy Spirit indwells within every believer and is not passed from person to person or place to place. His presence is not ushered in through fasting or singing, or speaking in tongues, nor can these activities bring healing to a person’s body or mind. This is not a divine move of our God.
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MK- I am with you 100% on this, but I know many IHOP devotees who are convinced that the “move” is from God {in answer to their 24/7 prayers!}, and that thier relationship with God is more intimate b/c of what they have learned through IHOP. They FEEL good about what is going on, and think that feeling is God’s approval. Thier “spirit man” is in agreement.
When I want to bring into question any of Mike Bickle’s teachings, they are quick to chime in with, “He always says not to take his word for it, but to read the bible for ourselves.” I have to wonder if they ever do. I pray for them because not too long ago I was one of them, convinced that any detractors were stuffy, living in fear and missing out on the true work of the Holy Spirit.
You ask “Why the kids?” My heart grieves for the young people especially, who are vulnerable in their eagerness to “experience something real.” In my life there are two precious young women, ages 16 and 17, who love the Lord and love IHOP. I am praying about how to approach them with what I know. Thier hearts are so tender and I don’t know if they are even open to considering that the Jesus of IHOP isn’t Jesus our Lord and Savior.
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You know Diane, it is a matter of the word. Hopefully those girls haven’t had too much in experience doctrine fed to them. I pray for you and others here that that the Lord would grant wisdom and knowledge and give us all the words to speak the truth to others.
It is all about feeling. I remember. Such a false joy and sense of well being. It’s pretty scary just how right it feels, when it is all so wrong. Sounds like some other things we need to stay away from, doesn’t it?
I used to watch Bickle on notgodtv in the mornings. I was interested in his teaching, but when I saw him do that devotion thing something felt very wrong, like a sense of pride -something in his expression and that smile. Then they moved it from 8 a.m. to 2 a.m. and I wondered why they did that. Maybe its a good time for deceptive teaching. I found a teaching paper on his site that said something to the effect when Jesus returns He will only be seen gradually. That there is no way He could be seen all at once by the whole world. That really woke me up and after that I knew he was trouble. So, his comment to others to check the word – your are right? Do they?
I heard a wof preacher last night on youtube that I am going to put up here soon. He read right out of the bible and lied his way through it. He twisted the meaning and left out portions of verses to make his point. I’ve never actually seen anyone do that until then. The audience amen’d him through it as they looked at their bibles!
The deception of these false teachers and the blindness of their followers is powerful. Manipulation – witchcraft, and they are overtaken and brought into bondage.
2 Peter 2:18-20
18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped[a] from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
Peace to you. 🙂
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M’kayla: I discovered this blog a few months ago and am grateful that you started it. My experience is similar to yours and that of several of the other commentators. About 7 – 8 months ago, God in His grace and mercy began to open my eyes to the error, heresy and deception in the Word of Faith and apostolic/prophetic movements, of which I’ve been a part for at least 25 years. Many of those years, going back to the early ’80’s, I was being taught to be an “overcomer”, the church I was in hosted Rick Joyner and Paul Cain, showed John Wimber videos, etc, etc. I didn’t attend the Paul Cain meeting because I was afraid he’d call out the sin in my life. Little did I know that he was perhaps in a worse sin condition than I was at the time!
Anyway, what started as a web search in April earlier this year on one of the NAR “prophets” led to links I wasn’t looking for, which lead to my eyes being opened to all of the error and deception.
Other good sources for sound articles on these topics are the DITC (Deception in the Church) website and Let Us Reason ministries. I’ve found articles from Orrel Steinkamp to be particularly helpful and insightful on many topics such as Latter Rain, etc.
Diane: Let me know how you approach the two young women who love IHOP. I have a similar situation…a young man, age 20, who co-leads my son’s Jr High youth group is an IHOP junkie…traveled there for the Onething conference last year and is planning to go to this year’s conference in a few weeks. I’ve wrestled with, and prayed about, how to approach him. He’s stated that Bob Jones is a “cool, old guy” and I just cringe. I just ordered a DVD on Lakeland from Let Us Reason ministries. It hasn’t arrived yet so I don’t know its content, but I plan to show it to my son to more fully flesh out what I’ve already explained to him.
I’m in Northern CA, hence my moniker, but haven’t felt called out of our church yet which is heavily influenced by Latter Rain, replacement theology and much more. That’s why, for now, I don’t feel comfortable using my name or location. Many in our church travel to to Bethel Church in Redding (Bill Johnson) on a regular basis. I feel that right now my call is to teach the small group that I lead about error in the Church, how to recognize it, etc. So far, we’ve covered Purpose Driven, Seeker Sensitive, The Shack, principles of hermaneutics and sound Biblical interpretation. Next up are error in Word of Faith, how to test the spirits, and charismatic craziness. Sorely needed we’re constantly urged to pray for “signs and wonders” during our corporate prayer meetings.
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Hi Norcal.
Thanks for letting me know about you and your situation. I never tire from hearing from the readers. It is a great encouragement to me and others who stop by. I agree -those two sites have some very good information. I should probably add them to my blogroll.
So many have been fed bad teaching for so long and taught to listen and follow their leader, whether it is the pastor, the apostle or the prophet. It makes it hard for them to see the truth. But, thankfully nothing is too hard for God. I hope and pray those you care about and speak to will be able to understand and see the truth. I know there’s lots of Bob Jones stuff on the internet. Hopefully your son can listen to it and search the bible and see his prophecies and teachings are not true. I am especially thinking of the one he put out when he made the trip to heaven and people were being admitted into heaven based on whether or not they loved. It’s pretty blatant and doesn’t take a whole lot of study to find he is not speaking biblical truth. I was going to put it up, but haven’t gotten around to it yet.
Interesting that you are able to teach what you are in your church. That is a miracle!
Keep in touch and feel free to post whatever you feel led to.
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Hi M’Kayla & Norcal!
I,too, am in Northern Cal and my church has aligned itself with Bethel and other “sister churches” and has done a 180. There is soaking prayer, a study that focuses on impartation of the spiritual gifts, prophecy and word of knowledge excersises, the pursuit of the supernatural… ALL of it! I was advised not to approach my pastor alone and so I contacted another pastor who knows my pastor, thinking he could guide me as far as what to do Biblically. Others have gone to my pastor directly to no avail. It blew up in my face. The other pastor was very condescending toward me and immediately contacted my pastor after I told him I would contact my pastor myself. Needless to say I got a call right away from my pastor who was very defensive and said what I did was “unscriptural”. I told him the reason I had contacted the other pastor was so that I would know what to do correctly because I felt ill-equipped and way over my head. I said I didn’t want to pursue it over the phone and so he wants to meet with me as soon as possible. Now I’m feeling horrible and questioning everything! Can you offer me any advice? I don’t know where to turn.
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vintagegirl, you just rest and breathe! 🙂 I’m going to shoot you an e-mail and we can work this out together.
Basically, for the sake of the blog and other readers, we want to put concerns in a biblical perspective and stay focused in that direction. For instance, where is soaking prayer taught in the bible, (it isn’t), how is prayer taught –find scrips to back this up. I believe there is a connection between soaking and contemplative prayer, which has its roots in eastern mysticism, and is not prayer at all, but meditation. Do this with each of the issues, but only pick a few of them, otherwise it gets overwhelming. It’s a good idea to keep it as simple as possible. Don’t buy into the lie you are ill-equipped. You are not.
Take another person with you, a friend who shares the same concerns – don’t go alone. You are going in to present the truth ONLY. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to convict him and reveal that to him. So, don’t go in “trying to convince” him– that is not your place and it’s too much burden to shoulder. The information you give him may not be well received – expect that. Don’t meet with him until you are ready and let him know who else is coming to the meeting with you.
The fact that you contacted another pastor is not the issue. Make it known to him that you did it out of ignorance, but of genuine concern. Then, leave it alone. All of us make mistakes. It is very possible your pastor has no idea where all of these teachings come from. They are very close to scripture, but are not the same. These are easy to get caught up in because they seem to be so real, so powerful – and FUN! But, they are not practiced the way God intended – they are counterfeited by the enemy.
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Vintage Girl- oh how so many of us can relate to the position you are in! My little church got hi-jacked much the same way. It is quite possible your pastor does not know the extent of the networking that is going on among the teachers of all of the popular stuff in charismania. Some of my church leaders had no idea.
Having said that, my personal experience is more like NorCal and M’Kaylas – being involved in the dominion/prophetic for many years before the Holy Spirit opened my eyes. He is the only One Who can make the truth sink in.
I’d advise focusing on sharing scriptural truth with your pastor above all else. If you keep your focus – and heart- on loving the truth, then your conscience will be clear no matter the outcome. For the person who can see the falseness in all this it can be very hard to not get frustrated. I’ll be praying for you.
I feel for you. I was in northern Calif a few years ago. I love the area, and fully intended to visit Bethel while I was there. I look back now and thank God I did not go and get sucked in deeper. I was in a particularly vulnerable place at the time, and could SO easily have dived in deeper given the right “word.”
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Thanks my friend!
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Mkayla
Having read through the last few posts here, i thought it might be appropiate to maybe list some of the works of the Holy Spirit, as an encouragement to all.
Eph 1:18
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the of truth, the gospel of your salvtion; in whom also , having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possesion, to the praise of His glory
John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to remembrance all things that I said to you.
John 16:13
However , when He, the Spirit of truth, has come,He will guide you into all truth;for He will not speak on His own authority; but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
Romans 8:26
Like wise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses.For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
The Holy Spirits work in us is a total work, but more to the point , because we have the Spirit in us, His work is uncorruptible.This is in direct contrast to those who ” peddle ” the Spirit and in the process totally corrupt both His work and message.
Like you have already stated Mkayla, stay at home, there is far more to be gained from just you and God alone and having Him teach you through His Spirit directly.
I get the impression from reading various posts that most people here on this blog are over the sausage factory church, being fed a constant diet of fat and gristle. The true church is a few believers getting together and spending time getting to know and understand just how amazing God is.
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Ray, I very much appreciate this. I was thinking about it myself, but I wasn’t able to get to it yet. So, good work! 🙂
I love this from you –
The true church is a few believers getting together and spending time getting to know and understand just how amazing God is.
Blessings Ray. 🙂
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Exactly!! Which is what we’re doing here, eh. We are not here for our own entertainment, or bcos we’re bored and don’t have anything else to do, but bcos there is a FELLOWSHIP in the gospel, in His Kingdom, in the Word of God. We were made (remade) for this. THIS is church – an example of what it means.
If Christians need to be awakened, it’s to this truth.
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For those enduring the gristle :), attached is a work of research I did when leaving the Healing Room Ministry and the false prophetic – etc. While the writing does not explain all aspects of the Holy Spirit, it does separate the false from the true teaching of Who He is and what He does in the life of the believer.
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Hi all –
You may want to check out http://www.cicminstry.org and http://cicministry.org/radio_series.php?series=all
Bob Dewaay runs this website – his background is similar to Mkayla’s, in that he was once caught up in all the new teachings, but has since returned to the truth after examining what God’s word really says. He is now on a crusade to point out the truth regarding much of the false teaching out there (spiritual warfare, NAR, inner healing, etc.).
In his radio section, he has thoroughly examined Mike Bickle’s teaching at IHOP through a transcription of one of Bickle’s own teaching tapes. http://cicministry.org/audio/radio/20081110_cic_radio.mp3
[audio src="http://cicministry.org/audio/radio/20081117_cic_radio.mp3" /]
[audio src="http://cicministry.org/audio/radio/20081124_cic_radio.mp3" /]
He breaks down the lies and twisting of scripture over 3 radio shows. This may give you some additional ammunition when confronting people who follow these lies.
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Highly recommended reading/listening! Thanks taher! I’ve only heard a little of it so far but I it is very good.
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taher:
Thank you very much for the reminder about Bob DeWaay and CIC ministry, and in particular, these mp3s on IHOP. I’ll check them out. Knowing Bob, his refutation of the error in Mike Bickle’s teachings will be logical, thorough, and Biblically founded. Over the past months after my “awakening”, I’ve read many of the articles on their site and have subscribed to their newsletter, but had forgotten about the radio broadcasts.
In case anyone’s interested, Bob has painstakingly created a great pdf on being a Berean, particularly when reading Purpose Driven Life…clearly shows all of the instances where Rick Warren uses Scripture out of context, or twists its meaning, or uses a translation to suit his meaning, not the authorial intent of the Scripture writers.
Two further points about Bob DeWaay, CIC (Critical Issues Commentary), and his church website: http://www.twincityfellowship.com:
1) I’ve learned much these past few months from listening to the mp3 classes from the Bible Study section of the Twin City Fellowship website…solid exegetical verse by verse teaching through books of the Bible and also on Hermaneutics, Systematic Theology, and Sovereignty of God. Great content from a Reformed and Sola Scriptura perspective.
2) As I’ve searched the web and other sources these past months trying to “unlearn” and compare with Scriptures the WoF and Latter Rain Charismatic teaching I’ve been immersed in the past 25 years, I find most ex-charismatics tend to take the conservative approach and become cessationists…some abruptly, some more gradually (moving from charismatic to charismatic/reformed to reformed/charismatic to reformed). It’s the easiest reaction.
I have the utmost respect for Bob and his work. I’ve had phone conversations with one who’s written articles for CIC on his team who made the journey “out” of charismania. Someone I have 2 degrees of separation with through mutual friends, and the conversations have helped answer many of my questions/things I was trying to sort out. And I’ve learned much solid doctrine from the Bible Study clases.
Having said that, in my opinion, even coming out of a lot of charismatic craziness, I’m not a cessationist. For example, I would disagree with the complete “providential worldview” that Bob teaches vs. a “spiritual warfare” worldview. That doesn’t mean I’m into all of the wackiness of strategic spiritual warfare tactics (prayer walking, binding/loosing demons, commanding/breaking off territorial spirits, identificational repentence, etc). Rather it means that, for example, I believe that I have a “servant authority” and if I encounter a demon-possessed person, I ask God what I’m to do in that situation…if He says cast it out, I will. If not, I don’t believe that I have the “resident authority” within myself to command/rebuke/cast out of my own accord and will. A bit like Ian has written here on the topic of casting out demons as I’ve skimmed and read much of the blog entries here.
My non-cessationist take on these topics would also include the validity of speaking in tongues, hearing from God (which the Sola Scriptura adherents would denounce), and prophecy in its correct context.
In my opinion, and maybe mine only, a correct Biblical interpretation of some of these topics is that it’s a “narrow way” between ditches of extremes — charismania on one side and Sola Scriptura only on the other. A way that’s Bible-centric with a good hermaneutic but also endued with the power and gifts of the Spirit practiced for the reason they were given: to be a witness of, and to point to, and glorify Jesus…not to collect experiences or become elitist. But it’s a way that’s hard to find written about in books, or to find a church that practices such. Needless to say, I’m still in the process of working out my beliefs on these things, and wasn’t prepared to write on this yet, just felt I needed to add my small personal disclaimer to a few of Bob DeWaay’s interpretations on a few topics.
My main mentor on these things who’s watched my come out of this craziness on my own with patience is a veteran pastor, teacher, and writer of Biblical teaching/training materials primarily for non-English speakers around the world. Currently, he’s based in Bangkok, Thailand. As he fields my questions and we discuss the Scriptures long-distance, many of his views are similar to Ian’s on this site. Maybe there’s something about being on the front lines outside of America that brings wisdom and maturity. I know that’s a great oversimplification, but the similarities between these two gentlemen make me smile.
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Norcal, thank you for this encouraging and well thought out comment. It is a blessed thing that you had a mentor to kick things around with while coming out – many of us don’t. I like your view on cessasionism and can see in my life where I almost went that way. But like I have said here before, I can’t find biblical support that the gifts have ceased, but I also don’t see the operation of them as we are taught in the bible. It isn’t an area that I am going to strive in myself over. I am more interested in learning the word than I am anything else.
And I do believe the Lord speaks to His people, but I also believe there is a time that He is silent. This has been my experience. Many things can happen while in the presence of the Lord. I am inclined to think those moments are between us and the Lord as acts of intimacy and not so much that these moments need to be shouted and shared. When we do that it loses the intimacy, it makes others “want that same experience” and brings attention and focus to things and to people that was never intended. This is where true personal relationship and intimacy with the Lord breaks away and becomes fuel for charismania.
I think Bob DeWaay has some great teaching and I have read some over this last year and a half or so. One thing you said that I am curious about –
For example, I would disagree with the complete “providential worldview” that Bob teaches vs. a “spiritual warfare” worldview.
What is your thinking in this, what do you mean by “providential”?
As to Ian, we are blessed to be his friends. His opinions and encouragement has been a great help to me too! Thanks again Ian. 🙂
Blessings all. And thanks to each of you for sharing your hearts, your thoughts and your lives with me. 🙂 Most of all thank you for your true love of Jesus Christ. May you all stand strong in your fight for the faith. (( group hug)) 🙂
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M’Kayla: apologies for the long delay in replying to your question above re: providential worldview vs. spiritual warfare worldview…haven’t had much time to read or post.
To answer, I’ll quote Bob DeWaay directly since I got the concept from him:
“The warfare worldview claims that history is played out as a battle between the forces of evil and believers. According to this view, God works through believers as much as they allow Him to. The more knowledge and power believers gain the better they can defeat the forces of darkness. If believers lack knowledge and techniques for spiritual warfare they will be victims and not victors. There are casualties in this battle and God does not assure the outcome.
The providential worldview believes in God’s sovereignty over all the forces of darkness. Spiritual forces of darkness cannot harm believers without first getting permission from God. What He allows them to do always is for our greater good. The key issue is not our knowledge about the forces of evil but our knowledge of God through the gospel. The battle is between the lie of Satan that man can be like God and the truth of the gospel.
Those who promote the warfare worldview mislead us by claiming that the options are only between a worldview that believes that there are demons, curses, and real Satanic activities and a “western” worldview that effectively denies that spiritual activity, good and bad, exists. This is a false dilemma. Do not be misled. The providential worldview also believes very much in the reality of demons, fallen angels, curses, principalities and powers as well as good angels and the presence of the Holy Spirit.
The options are whether one believes in God’s sovereignty over all of these spiritual beings and realities or whether one believes God is allowing the battle to run its course on its own. Those who hold to the later view see God there to help if we figure out and use the right techniques but not sovereignly keeping us and carrying us to glory. Does God determine the outcome or is the outcome determined by humans and demons?”
Here are links to 2 of his articles for more in-depth reading:
http://www.cicministry.org/commentary/issue78.htm
How Deliverance Ministries Lead People to Bondage
http://www.cicministry.org/commentary/issue113.htm
Providence and Promise: How God His Universe for the Good of His People
He’s also got many more articles on Sprititual Warfare
Keep up the good work!
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Thanks for the resources Taher! I was just praying yesterday about my young friends; the burden on my heart is so heavy. I was asking God where to begin with them (exposing the error in IHOP) and how to get orderly/organized about it, and today I read your posting. What an answer to prayer 🙂 I can’t wait to click over there and get to reading.
God is so good! Thanks again
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So then we must give thanks to our great Lord for answering our prayers. Let us be confident that He will continue this work, as He is faithful and true. We know He wants these true prodigals home more than we do, more than we can imagine. Blessed be His name! Thank you Father for this answer to prayer! 🙂
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Hi mkayla, I have to tell you going back somewhat when Toronto-Airport was on TV I had never hear of them. So I put tv on Sat. night this comes up I could not beleive what I was seeing it was just awful I would not call this glorifying God. I was over at my Mom’s another Sat. night so I sit down she had TV on said look at this show me Toronto-Airport says, isn’t that awful. So she felt the same why I did about it.I don’t see how anyone in there right mind could say this o.k. There was one that they barked like dogs and what not, but I can’t remember if they were tied into T-Airport.
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Sandra, was this a new meeting or a rebroadcast? I know (not)godtv shows current conferences from Toronto Airport.
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This was going back in the early part of 90’s,I beleive that’s when they were first started out.They came on TV every Sat. night,and you would see them(the people)out in the isle crying, swaying stupidly laughing fall over barking like dogs. It would just send the whillies up your spine. I don’t even think they are on TV anymore or around to my knowledge. And I remember going to Bible studies one night the pastor had a special movie on. It was on Kenneth Copeland, same idea it was terrible. I truly believe these things are so important to be known as to what is going on I really love this site because it does keep us informed and I don’t know about you but, I find Christian are not interested don’t inform one-another nor do they want to talk about it. Sometimes I do find it very tired-some with all that goes on. But, we have to kept in touch as to what is going on. Right! I hope I answer you with the answer you are looking for.
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Thanks Sandra, you answered it. 🙂
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http://truthspeaker.wordpress.com/category/ihop/
Truthspeaker’s Weblog has quite a bit of research and information re:IHOP and those surrounding it.
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Thanks norcal, you have summed up some of my thoughts as well. I don’t mind referring to cessationist writings etc, I just remember the person’s stance on this subject and glean what I can. I’ll be checking into DeWaay’s site. I also check into Moriel listed on M’Kayla’s blogroll.
I am still in the deconstruct phase of coming out of Charismania, but I am determined to look at everything with fresh eyes in light of the scriptures; examining both sides of controversial topics as much as I can. At first I didn’t feel “strong enough” to do this, but it seems time, now.
Norcal said, “…if I encounter a demon-possessed person, I ask God what I’m to do in that situation…”
You touched on something I keep coming back to again and again as I go through this process, and that is doing anything I do out of my relationship with the Father through Christ and by the working of the Spirit. Yes, scripture says to go, casting out demons, anointing the sick, preaching the gospel, cleansing the leper, but if I do those things without stopping to ask the Lord when, where and how, then I am doing them on my own and out of my own (assumed) authority. Servant authority is a great description. Jesus, Himself, operated this way. Only doing what the Father told Him to do.
Who hasn’t been struck by the vastly different responses Jesus displayed in different situations? One time forgiving the woman caught in adultery, one time calling the religious leaders whitewashed tombs, taking the time to explain things to Nicodemus, etc. To say he acted one way with the leaders and another with the common people is too simplistic. He stopped and asked (I think) in every situation.
I sometimes wonder if a lot of our confusion stems from thinking we are entitled to do a certain “good work” without really inquiring of the Lord. Maybe that’s one reason why we do the shotgun approach to praying for healing and see mixed results that end up shipwrecking people’s trust in the Lord.- “He didn’t follow the prescribed method for healing we learned, so how can we trust Him?” When all along it is us being led by something other than His Spirit.
One thing I have found helpful are first hand accounts of persecuted Christians. Seems like the threat of immediate death cuts through a lot of the garbage. I don’t see any rash, presumptuous declaration or claims. What I see looks a lot more like the book of Acts. Sometimes miraculous happenings free people from jail, hide them from captors and save their lives, but sometimes they die alone in prison. Sounds like the apostles. In other words, they are submitted to the Father and whatever brings Him glory, but it’s up to Him whether that is a miraculous escape, or the faithful servant sharing the gospel with fellow prisoners, or the servant being faithful even unto death.
Believe me, I have no delusions that I am so simply and purely led by the Spirit. I’m just saying it is fundamentally different in attitude than what I was taught (ingested due to my own lack of Berean-like-ness) about provision, miracles, healing, spiritual warfare, etc. in Charismania.
I really appreciate this blog, the tone of the participants, and everyone’s input. M’Kayla, you have done a good job of exposing the false and pointing to the truth, while encouraging good discussion. It makes it much easier to dialogue about the points we differ on, or are trying to learn about, than a place where people bludgeon each other with their words.
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Thanks Ruth. I appreciate the willingness of others to participate in a spirit of love and respect. All praise to God. 🙂
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Just a clarification from my earlier post: Bob DeWaay doesn’t take the typical cessationist stance. His article entitled “The Gifts of the Holy Spirit – Showing That Spiritual Gifts are Not for New Revelations and Have not Ceased” presents his views. It’s found in his article list from CIC Issue 47
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Hmmm…thanks Ruth!
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Hi mkayla,
Here is a Christmas present. The church I have written about here on your blog, a church that I have stopped attending because of the Bethel teachings has had a huge break through. I just had a conversation with wife of one of the a founding elders. She has stopped attending and as hard as it is for her husband, he is writing a formal letter against the teachings and will no longer attend the church. Please pray for them, this will affect thousands of people. I am feeling the struggle and I know as hard as it is for us to speak out, we are making progress. Thank you again and again for your support!!!!
Victory is in Christ!
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Kathleen, that is beautiful news. Keep us updated.
Praise God, huh everyone???!!!!!!
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Re: “Norcal said, “…if I encounter a demon-possessed person, I ask God what I’m to do in that situation…””
This is so simple and so profound, and freeing. How could we not seek or refer to Him what we should do? How could we just act without knowing His will? And this applies to every significant thing (not going to the bathroom and such…).
Over the last year we’ve seen one man delivered from being possessed. It was a gradual change, but a profound one, from insanity to sanity and to faith in Jesus.
Over here we see many demon possessed homeless wandering about. Every time i’ve met them i’ve asked the LORD, should i confront the demon? It’s a soul-searching situation, we search ourselves, Am i the problem? Do i have enough faith to do it? Do they want to be free? Then, i’ve come to the place where i say to the Father, I believe you can deliver anyone, i won’t doubt that, and i’m available, use me if you will. Most of the time, in these cases, i haven’t had the ‘green light’ from the Father to do it. And when you know that, you just can’t do it on your own. You know how He guided you and worked thru you on other occasions.
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Plotinus B (second personality) 🙂 Please don’t attribute this to the last two posts LOL
What is so horrible about a bunch of people seeking the Lord? Do we serve a King who would hand us over to Lucifer with such ease? Do we serve a Master that would abandon us for seeking him?
All because some of these jokers (yes, some are jokers) are caught up in meaningless “endgame” or “hyper-spiritual” theology.
I can’t find the location within scripture where miracles, angels, holy spirit “demonstrations” are absent. The challenging of the “false” exists as well. Yet your reference point, or stasis, is coming from any “church” that loosely resembles a bad experience you had.
Sadly, it’s not unique. Legalistic churches have significantly higher suicide rates. Catholic churches have higher “dropout” rates. I could go on.
Why can’t we just embrace everyone who claims Christ? Create a forum where that fosters dialogue and accountability, rather than taking on the role of the accuser.
MK: I have told you several times that I agree with most of your criticisms. And yet I would rather belong to a group of people who make mistakes than those who spend all of their time telling me what I’m doing wrong.
I still can’t find the scripture that says I am my brother’s keeper or accuser.
Again, when did the miracles end?
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Plotinus, because their claims and teachings and methods do not line up with scripture, not one bit. It is not a matter of my experience, except that I learned the truth from being involved in these teachings. I will always return to the bible. I am not an accuser of the “brethren” as these are not my brothers. They do not adhere to sound doctrine. There is more here than just bad end times ideas.
These NAR teachers and prophets are not seeking the Lord. They come in His name, use His name, but they seek their own plans, their own wills and their own demonic doctrine. This is far worse than “making mistakes”. This is misleading – deliberately misleading- those who truth them to be godly leaders. When they say “god has said” when He has not, what does that tell you? When they claim prophets only have to be accurate a small portion of the time, where do they come up with that? The bible teaches that if a prophets declares something that does not come true, then the prophet is false and to not listen. When they teach believers will embody Christ, be sinless and without death…when they say “come here for the anointing, the gift, the healing…” The bible is very clear on how to deal with false teachers and prophets and it is to expose them and to have nothing to do with them. You say you can’t find a scripture on that, then you are not looking nor listening. All that claim Christ do not necessarily follow Him.
I do have a site that fosters dialogue and accountability, proven by those who comment – that is what we have been doing. You may not agree, that is fine with me.
We keep going around the same bush here and it is tiring. I don’t have the need to keep going with the same argument with you.
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P – you said –Why can’t we just embrace everyone who claims Christ? —
I believe you will find this in the emergent/contemplative group or the universalists, and possibly in the new agers who claim a christ consciousness, and those who follow Oprah, Tolle, Williamson, etc. But you certainly will not here, for all the reasons I and my commenters have already stated because our Lord says not everyone who calls Him Lord truly know him and many will come in His name.
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Plotinus – good questions to be asking the writer of this and other blogs that are so highly criticizing and presuming heresy of fellow followers of Jesus. And to compare or equate these of your brethren with those who follow Oprah, Tolle, Williamoson, the universalists and new agers, mkayla, is an accusation I would not even dignify with a reply. I abandoned cessationalism decades ago when I experienced the Holy Spirit and my life was transformed to one of love, power, freedom and joy unspeakable and full of glory….after two decades in wonderful cessationist churches where I received the foundational truths God wanted to build upon. I am grateful for every single facet and member of Christ’s Body, and for all the things God has given to each of them to carry, to hold, to embrace and to make known the Father to the world by. I love the Protestants, the Catholics, the Charismatics, the Pentecostals, and those who don’t even know what to call themselves but they love Jesus and do their best to follow Him – all those naming the name of Jesus and who beleive and testify that Jesus Christ is Lord.
And that, my friend, is scriptural.
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No, that is not scriptural. That is the claim by those who don’t have the guts to carve out true Christianity. It is not all inclusive, it is very distinctive. But this is the outcome for those who follow false prophets and teachers. Eventually all are excepted as long as they name the name of Jesus. But we are told in the word that there are other Christs, others who claim belief in Jesus who are not His. I am sure you will put me in that group since you are so convinced I am wrong. But, again, I say go to the word and find where those who practice the worship of idols and teach strange things will be included in the kingdom. They will not.
I am not a cessationalist. If you did any true reading you would see that.
And I am tired of your attacks.
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You are right, we are not getting anywhere. I point to the whole of scripture, you point to the few out of context rights of the accuser passages.
I still have hope for our church. I have hope that we can all recognize that we are blind (some of us just have larger pieces of wood in our eyes).
Good luck and God Bless.
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Bye Plotinus.
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I am very very sad when I find blogs full of deep criticism of parts of the Body of Christ – accusations of heresy, error, false moves, false prophesies, false leaders. It reminds me of all the criticsm by the established churches and denominations of the Jesus movement and the Charistmatic movements of the 1970’s, which were true outpourings of the Holy Spirit, and in which there were certain churches and denominations that carried or “held” that move of God. The church in America was transformed over time as a result of their courage to carry it, when they were being accused the way that you are accusing those holding or carrying revival today. If it’s God, you won’t be able to stop it and tens of thousands will continue to receive and follow Jesus, be filled with the Spirit, have their bodies healed by Him, and begin to walk with God who did not before. If it’s not God, it will die out like false moves do.
Since I understand all the things being accused falsely, things taken out of context, things metaphoric being accused of being literal (for example, God doesn’t have wings literally, but we all understand what He means when He says He shelters us with His wings…), and doctrine about what the future holds biblically being discussed differently from what has been established as the truth and only the truth for the last 100 years, I find most accusations here sorely lacking.
I always tell critics of any church where people are coming from all over the world and being healed physically and coming to Jesus Christ as Savior,that when you are doing the same thing in ministry, then you may criticize. You can voice your right to free speech (what’s left of it in America) but to just start a string of negative blogs, post excerpts from videos and conference ads and then wing your way through with white-glove scrutiny, assuming you know what people are saying and why they are saying it, making generalizations about brothers and sisters in Christ and ministries, coming with a spirit of accusation and judgment, reveals a foundation that is not a clean one, nor one that comes from love for every man, woman and child who names Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, as the Son of the living God, and as the Risen Lord.
Paul wrote “to him who is clean, all things are clean, and to him who is unclean, all things are unclean.” You can see goodness and joy and holiness and righteousness when you are looking through the Father’s eyes at His children, the way that He loves them. But when you are looking through smoky glasses of criticism, skepticism, and personal offense – you will only see error. This was the mistake made by those who did not recognize Jesus because He did not show up saying, doing or being who they expected. This is the mistake that every persecutor of every new move of the Holy Spirit has made in every generation there has been one.
This, my friends, is what makes me sad about this blog and so many like it. It makes me sad that the church is so broken by misunderstanding, confusion and judgement.
Know that we all who name Jesus, even us Bethel Church fans (of whom I am one) and readers of Chuck Pierce and Cindy Jacobs (like me) and many many other saints whom you have criticized because you don’t understand, are a part of you because we all are a part of the Body of Christ, naming and loving and worshipping the Father in heaven through Jesus His Son, and sealed together by the same Holy Spirit of God.
May you all be blessed and prosper in all you put your hands to that God is able to bless. May you experience the staying of His hand from your hand as you write and your mouth as you speak out against those whom God loves and whom Jesus tenderly died for with equal zeal as He died for you, their zealous opposers.
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It is in comparing my experiences in ministry, being taught, with a devout desire to learn, to grow and to do for God. In comparing what I was taught, what I passed on to others in the name of “ministry” and comparing such things with the word, I have found great error. You may not agree with me as you practice those same things. That is your decision. I am not here to put others down, but to share the truth in light of the scriptures. If you pull out your bible and compare such prophecies, teachings and claims with the word you will find the same thing.
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I am very very sad when I find blogs full of deep criticism of parts of the Body of Christ – accusations of heresy, error, false moves, false prophesies, false leaders. It reminds me of all the criticsm by the established churches and denominations of the Jesus movement and the Charistmatic movements of the 1970’s, which were true outpourings of the Holy Spirit, and in which there were certain churches and denominations that carried or “held” that move of God.
When in the word then, does God cause people to fall on the floor, act drunk, make noises like animals, kick dying or worshiping people in the face? Where are we given this in the bible which is our guide. NOWHERE. this is why these moves are not of God or of the Holy Spirit for those of you who like to treat Him as a separate entity with His own personality. (Which he does not have.) This is how we know these moves are not of God, because they do not reflect Him or the fruits of the Holy Spirit – gentleness, kindness, self control. HA!
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I will be surprised if my comment above will be posted exactly as written after the moderator has read it for approval or not, but my heart hopes that all this negative leadership with the pen, which is mightier than the sword (for both evil AND good), will be dispelled and that light will come to the darkened hearts of judgmentalism and denominationalism which plague them. God in heaven, help us, this broken church so divided due to the dividing walls of man-made theology and natural intepretation of your Word, rather than the supernatural, organic interpreation that comes only by the Holy Spirit. Help us Lord to love every part of Your body, whether it is the eye, the ear, the nose, the elbow, the knee, the foot, or even the buttocks! Your body is beautiful and every part is nurtured by You! I love it, I love the Church, all of it, but so many parts are broken and some are acting as though they do not want to be connected to the same Jesus others are connected to. Oh dear Lord.
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found by him – you said
I will be surprised if my comment above will be posted exactly as written after the moderator has read it
Why?
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supernatural, organic interpreation that comes only by the Holy Spirit
God does not change and He will never violate His own word. That is the basis for finding the truth in any claim whether it is a supernatural experience, such as a dream or vision or a teaching. So when someone comes along claiming something other than what we find in the bible, like Bob Jones, for instance who claims that eventually people will overcome death and if they do die, they will be able to raise themselves back to life, where oh, where does the word say this??? (This claim can be found under my topic Bob Jones -Things to Come and further verified on the internet.) That is strictly an example. There are many many others to be found.
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….but your blog is full of putting others down, even naming them and their minisries by name! I can find little else in most of your posts, my friend! You have taken things out of spiritual context, condemning and weighing by doctrines of men, ignoring the scriptures and biblical models for the very things you accuse, and having used insults to emphasize the strong emotion you feel.
But thank you for the courage to post my comment. I may or may not be back….it so grieves me to see posts like yours on the internet, so self-justifying. So far, I have not found a single scripture you have used to support an argument, where there is not another scripture to support the things you have just opposed. You cannot pick only those scritures you like, which appear to support your arguments, and ignore the others that support those things being said and modeled by those you are so vehemently accusing. But like I said, God has always multiplied what He has begun by the thousands of souls coming to Jesus. And that is happening through just about every Christian and revival organization and denomination I have seen you accuse in your posts, except those obvious “new age” and cult references you bunch your brothers and sisters in Christ together with in an effort to villify them even further. May God have mercy on you and open your eyes dear sister in Christ. Jesus would say, “m’kayla, why are you persecuting Me?”
I cannot follow negative leadership, where the whole ministry is based on negativity and proving one’s self right and everyone else wrong, and gathering an audience who wants to do the same. I can feel the spirit that is prevalent here and it is not the Holy Spirit. You do not know the Spirit you are of, like James and John who wanted to call fire down from heaven to punish those they thought were wrong…and those people probably WERE in the wrong, but the spirit they were of was still not the spirit of God. Jesus did not come to condemn but to save. Whenever saints are preaching the gosple of salvation through Jesus Christ crucified and multiplied peoples are coming to that saving knowledge, and signs and wonders are following (all of which I myself and people I love have become grateful recipients), then you do yourself great future harm by persecuting and condemning them, your brothers and sisters for whom Christ died as He died for you. You do not know what spirit you are of, dear one, for if you did, you would abandon all this hard, emotion-packed effort. And you would be abandoned to love, to worship, to minister to the very Jesus Whom you are now persecuting.
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My writings are not based on emotionalism. They are based on exposing false doctrine. Good stance to take in making me sound like a silly wounded woman and discrediting the true work and research I have put into my posts. It’s a little bit different than simply reading books and claims of maniacs or referring to dream cards for answers. Not a far walk from the tarot, is it?
Funny, you had nothing to say to me a year ago when all of this was taking place. But you have plenty to say now in your assumptions and claims or that you feel a presence of this spirit or that one. Garbage. I am persecuting Jesus..? Get over yourself. How far will you go with such ugly words and presumption? Is there no end?
Love? No. This is not love. Of all the comments I have received since I put this blog up I have found yours to be the most condemning. It doesn’t take courage for me to let you have your say.
—————–
Folks, these comments are being made by someone I used to operate in the false prophetic with. I turned on my computer this morning, having not had it on all weekend and came on 8 comments from her. In case you are wondering about my tone, now you know. And we see first hand how the claims of love turn to hate, and how those under the spell of the false protect leaders without giving much care to those they once stood side by side with. First she claimed I was persecuting other believers, then it was her, now it is Jesus. Does it end?
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When I was reading “foundbyhim”‘s posts, I kept thinking “where is she getting this stuff? M’Kayla’s writings are rational and supported by evidence, NOT emotional, unsubstantiated rantings.” Since you shed light on the personal connection, it all makes sense. I was going to thoughtfully write a response to “foundbyhim” defending you and this blog, but I think my enegry is better used in encouraging you.
M’Kayla, it’s been about six weeks since the Lord opened my eyes to the deceptive teachings that I was involved in. Your story and the work you put into this blog have helped me in so many ways, the least of which is feeling supported as I work my way through this season in my life. I don’t comment too much because I’m still sorting out truth from lies in my own heart and mind. I feel so insecure sometimes, but I am growing. Reading the posts and comments here help me with that. I like that people can respectfully disagree, but there is definitely not a lack of passion! I’m in the bible more than ever now, and that’s my anchor. Sure, some things are open to small variances of interpretation, but in the pages of His holy word we find truth. There are too many blatantly false teachings given in the name of Jesus to uncover, and not just for the sake of exposure, but for the sake of the spiritual health of Christians today. Sounding the alarm is vital. I’m thankful to God that I heard the alarm of an obedient servant.
As my dad used to say, don’t let the turkeys get you down. Know that you are loved and appreciated by many. Keep up the great work!
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re: may statement above “There are too many blatantly false teachings given in the name of Jesus” I am amazed at how something can be blatant and subtle at the same time, which is why these teachings spread. That, and lack of solid biblical knowledge, which I am more guilty of than my pride could formerly admit.
Satan exploited my laziness, but no more!
(sorry about this tangent, but I was itching to say it)
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It’s hardly a tangent! 🙂
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I’m dancing a little jig here Diane. Thanks for your encouragement and support. Praise God that we are learning and growing, exposing the darkness, whether it be within ourselves or those nasty teachings going on all around us. I am sad for those who refuse to hear the truth and instead listen to leaders, not the word. I am still sorting thru stuff too!
I loved the turkey comment! 🙂
Love in Christ! 🙂
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I read this thread and it inspired this post on my blog:
The illusion of ‘leadership’ and ‘official ministers’
I want to take this from your own perspective, whoever reads this: Who do you consider to be your leader or leaders? Who, officially, is your ‘minister’?
Is the relationship, if we could call it that, an institutional-official one, or is a relational one, of love?
Reading a friend’s blog, where someone was supporting all the current leadership of the churches in America, i was reminded of the illusion which prevails; and that illusion is the belief that what sets a leader apart and above is that they have superior knowledge of the Bible than you; they are closer to God than you; they are more anointed than you; they hear God better than you; they have more gifts than you… i could go on.
People have put them there bcos they don’t know the truth for themselves. It reflects a deep and sometimes hidden sense of inferiority, that people think others to be far superior and then blindly follow them.We have all done that in our immaturity. But we didn’t need to stay immature for so long, if we were part of a NT church.
I’m talking about a ‘relationship’ to ‘leaders’ which is unBiblical. If the saints of God knew the truth and were established in the truth, there would not be one charlatan, or one ego or money-minded preacher of pastor in any pulpit (there wouldn’t even be a pulpit).
A friend called me yesterday from the States and he reminded me of this verse:
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. Heb. 13:17
If you find a brother or brothers who watch for your soul, who labor in prayer for you specifically, and know they have to give an account for you, for their responsibility, then you might have found a true elder and pastor. It’s that simple. But most don’t want this, they want a ‘pastor’ who is not so close to them, who doesn’t really know them and carry them on his heart every day. They prefer the institution over a NT relational church.
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Ian, thanks for that. As always, so right on. 🙂
Sadly, so many of us have been indoctrinated to just accept things the way they are, never questioning what has been said, and having no “platform” to speak their minds, much less an avenue to contribute what they hear, learn, etc. There is no way a pastor of today’s church could possibly do what has been asked of him, only being one in lead of so many. It is sad that we are missing out on the true model of a n.t. church. But, like so many other things it is what we have settled for. For those who prefer the “institution”, it is even sadder still.
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Right on Ian. I was just thinking yesterday, if I really needed to call a few friends and ask for prayer, who would those people be? You know, if I was really in a hard place, who would I call for prayer? The answer is the people who love God and who love me and my family. Simple as that. I few happen to be pastors, but mostly they are my agenda-less friends.
Two related points, some of us (me) have to take some of the responsibility for the state of leadership because we have been willing to put people up on a pedestal and hang on every word they say. It’s a two way street.
When people argue about whether there are apostles today who function like the NT apostles, I don’t really know. I only know I haven’t met one yet.
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And we know all too well what happens to those who speak up. But how did we get here? If the bible tells us to expose these false teachers, why hasn’t it been done for all these years? Does anyone have that answer? There was some driving force at some point when and where so many were not only deceived by the false teaching, but were lulled into no longer speaking against it. I know there is a group out there that never fell into it. But how can it be that such a large group continue to be? Think of all the thousands upon thousands who flock to their gatherings, the conferences, revivals, outpourings, etc. etc. Or is is enough to say that this is prophecy fulfilled, the great falling away?
Still, Ruth is correct in this. The followers of the false teachers and prophets are to blame as just as the leaders. If they hadn’t been so widely accepted and supported they wouldn’t be famous.
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If you are reading this and you have been told or read in books that you don’t have the place spiritually to name false teachers and prophets, or the place to question your leaders because you are not apostolic or a leader, you are being fed a fat lie. We all have the expectation to uphold the truth of the gospel and dispel false teaching.
If you are being told you do not have the place or the right to speak against leaders or apostles because you do not effect the kingdom as greatly as they – we are talking a numbers game here – how many, how much – please know that God is not interested in these tallies. Again, you are being fed a great big fat lie.
Remember the bully in the playground, the one who made fun of a kid- maybe you – and all the other kids joined in mocking, calling names, laughing? They did this so the bully wouldn’t turn on them. They did it out of fear of the bully, fear of rejection because the bully appeared to have more power and more authority than the little guy. But what authority did he have? Only in what was perceived, not in reality. Big difference.
It is the same in the self appointed false apostolic movement, these self righteous phonies are the bullies of the gospel. They want nothing else than to separate you from the freedom you have with your savior, with Jesus Christ AND to separate you from the word of God and knowing the truth. This is why there is so much of their merchandise out there, readily available, and often free. If they were so concerned about your spiritual condition they would point you to the word of God, not the words they themselves have penned.
There is no substitute for the truth of the word of God – none – no matter how it is packaged. These liars will not stand side by side with you on judgment day taking responsibility for the lies they sold you. Don’t be taken by these fat lies, expose them.
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I know someone involved with this group and they are secretive about everything in their lives. Where they live, what they do, all contact is severed with any one from their life before. Can someone tell me why? Has this been the experience with anyone else? Is this encouraged? It goes against the very basic teachings of the Gospel, but yet they believe they are serving God. Answers?
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Hi Tez.
When you say “this group” do you mean IHOP?
I have not had personal experience with them but I have read about others who have. Anytime something is held in secret something is wrong. I know of a woman who’s son has stopped talking to her because of what he has been told at IHOP. I would think it is a method of indoctrination, keeping the outsiders out so that they can have time to “reprogram” the mind. It is much easier done with the young than the old. Once they are separated from their families and those they love, those who would normally give them guidance and counsel it becomes easier to mislead.
Anytime a person is lead to follow a leader and not the word as it is written the deception comes in. People follow because they believe the “apostle” or “prophet” is hearing from God and they want to be obedient to “those who rule over them” and of course to their Lord. It’s manipulation, fear of rejection by those around them, fear of failing God. Unfortunately it is also about not loving the Lord God and His truth more than the leader. IHOP and other groups like them are cults – period.
This is the first time I have heard someone being secretive about where they live, etc. That’s a little eerie.
Anyone here have more help for Tez?
Blessings and hope to you in the name of Jesus.
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http://truthspeaker.wordpress.com/category/ihop/
There is some great info on this blog re: IHOP 🙂
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I am speaking of IHOP, Bill Johnson Cal Pierce. This is a loved one I am speaking of. We are into the sixth year of this separation with no explanation for anything. I know there is strong manipulation in this situation. There is also a physical disability, illness, that this person has which I am sure plays into this. I am sure they are persuaded to be obedient in order to seek their healing. I keep praying for God to intervene and wake her up to the deception and darkness that has become her life. Where is the discernment today? I believe we are seeing the falling away right before our very eyes. I am desperate for answers. Thank you for any insight into this situation.
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Tez did you see the comments above and the link for IHOP articles?
These “movements” are so much about healing, healing and very little to do with repentance and true revival. They are based in emotions, feelings, bodily sensations – whatever feels good, sounds good (false prophetic words) is the truth to them. This is why it is so misleading to so many. They have perverted the truth of the word to the point they may as well throw it out completely. And some are probably well on their way to doing just that. If you go to my category under Refuting IAHR you can better see the lying teachings of Cal Pierce which also trickle into Johnson as they believe the same things.
Many of us think it is highly possible we are seeing the rising of the anti-christ come right up out of all of these places and teachings, as they claim Christ but deny Him in their teachings and practices.
My heart goes out to you and this separation that you are under. I have been through a similar situation with those I love too. Not the same circumstances but separation just the same. I hope you can find some answers here. Don’t give up in your prayers as hard as it seems to go on. Stand strong. We will stand with you.
Peace to you, in Jesus’ name!
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Thank you. I know God led me to this website. I researched Bill Johnson about a year ago but could not find much about him. I know there has been involvement with him.
Thank you for speaking the truth. There will be critics I am sure but Jesus spoke the truth ( because He is truth) and called out the Pharisees.
Your statement about the rise of the anti-christ is a strong point that I have not thought of. I realize even more the need for earnest prayer about this situation.
God bless you.
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Thanks for the kind words of encouragement.
Re: my comment about the anti-christ, I meant to add that it is curious that so many are flocking to these so called apostle/prophets (NAR), leaving behind the truth of the scriptures in exchange for come here, the power is here, the anointing, etc. They don’t like to be directed to the scripture, and protect their leaders above all. It’s creepy the way they all seem to gather and the powerful influence they seem to have over churches. I’ve had many people come here and tell me their church is being strongly influenced by Bethel. Watch out for true persecution to come directly from those who follow the false christs. Who would have thought this would be so?
Blessings. 🙂
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Tez, I saw this today and thought of you. Read the comment made by an ex-IHOPper.
http://slaughteringthesheep.wordpress.com/2009/12/26/mike-bickle-and-the-kansas-city-cult-called-ihop/
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Thank you so much! Just read it.
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Birds of a feather flock together!!
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There’s a verse in Matthew about the eagles gathering where there is a carcass…
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http://sadparent.wordpress.com/2009/12/26/sadparents-thoughts-about/
IHOP story from a mom separated from her son.
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Pingback: The Convergence of Bad Rivers « m'kayla's korner
Pingback: More Bad Water « m'kayla's korner
Hi Mkayla! I haven’t been on for quite some time, but in light of the many accusations being thrown at you, I felt compelled to respond to these people. First of all, I will have you know that I was involved with the charismatic church for 20 years, and when the Lord brought me out 6 months ago, I began to seek His face as to why I had been drawn in that direction in the first place. I had to allow Him to help me examine my own heart, and that was tough. First of all, it required sacrifice-the sacrifice of MUCH time in His Word and in His Presence. What I saw just broke my heart, but that is what God requires of us to be made whole (I’m talking in spirit here). I began to question what the draw was to such doctrine and practices. What God uncovered in me was that my heart was far from Him, and I had never let Him come as close to me as He wanted to. That emptiness we all have without a life-giving relationship with Him begs to be filled with something. Now, desiring the blessings of God is not a wrong thing, but when we try to use them to replace Him in our lives, they become our idols. We demand of God to give us what we want, not seeing that He longs to give us what we need most-Himself. Oh, how our hearts have been seduced away from the Lover of Our Souls! We also have bowed to the idol of laziness in our Christian lives-we would rather run from church meeting to church meeting, sometimes spending hours and hours in many of them, but how many of us would spend an entire evening or even a complete day hidden away with God in His Presence and studying His Word. Oh, people please see that God, above all things, doesn’t want our money, our church attendance, our works of service-He wants us! And please stop believing that life on this earth is ever going to be perfect-Jesus said we would have tribulation and trials in this life, and the heart of the matter is, when push comes to shove, and God allows painful and difficult circumstances in our lives, will we trust Him, love Him, and believe that “all things work together to them that love God”. God has drawn me back to the very heart of Himself, closer than I have ever been before. Having Him is worth all the blessings that this world, or even God Himself, has to offer. My heart had been drawn to the empty promises of these charismatic leaders because my flesh did not want to go the way of the cross. Yes, there is a suffering that we will undergo to have God. Yes, there is a sacrifice of ourselves spent in coming to grasp the message of His Word in its entirety, and not just being spoon-fed scripture that is taken out of its original context and twisted to satisfy the desires of our flesh! Yes, our hearts were created to crave the Presence of God Himself, so stop letting that false spirit at so many of these charismatic meetings seduce you! Ask God to lead you back to the real thing! I believe there is coming a time of real shaking-God will pull down these false idols that we have created for ourselves-they will fail those who are looking to them. Those of you who would seriously take God up on His offer to draw close to Him would find the answers that you seek. Many, many of us have found that to be true. Don’t let the devil have your heart any longer! The Word tells us to draw near to God, and He will draw near to us. As for modern day apostle and prophets, in light of what God has shown, I do believe we need them desperately. But they will not come in the package that the charismatic church has given us. The meaning of the word apostle is “special messenger”. Oh, how we desperately need this gift-to bring a special message from heaven to turn our eyes back to the truth, to reveal the seduction of our hearts away from the Living God! I believe this lady, Mkayla, is certainly one of them, and while many of you see her as only wanting to attack you, I see a real desire in her to bring hearts back to God and the truth of His Word. As for modern day prophets, I see a need for them, too, in the context to bring forth the real message contained in Scripture-all of which points to the love affair that God wants to have with His people, and He is so passionately in love with you that He desires you above all things! I leave you with these scriptures, Revelation 3:17-20 “For you say, I am rich; I have prospered and grown wealthy, and I am in need of nothing; and you do not realize and understand that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. Therefore I counsel you to purchase from Me gold refined and tested by fire, that you may be truly wealthy, and white clothes to clothe you, and to keep the shame of your nudity from being seen, and salve to put on your eyes, that you may see. Those whom I dearly and tenderly love, I tell their faults and convict and convince and reprove and chasten (I discipline and instruct them). So be enthusiastic and in earnest and burning with zeal and repent (changing your mind and attitude). Behold, I STAND AT THE DOOR AND KNOCK; IF ANYONE HEARS AND LISTENS TO AND HEEDS MY VOICE AND OPENS THE DOOR, I WILL COME IN TO HIM AND WILL EAT WITH HIM, AND HE WILL EAT WITH ME.” (Amplified Version). He’s knocking today-is anybody listening?
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Hi Deb.
It’s nice to hear from you again. I’ve been thinking about you and praying for you and so it is good to hear you are doing well in your search for the truth in the Lord.
The word of God is so rich and full and so many times all we need to do is to read what is written in those pages. But sadly, those in Charismania barely open theirs. I think some have been involved for so long, listening to the extremes, the experiences and being taken so far from the pure, simplistic truth of God’s word and His ways they can no longer discern what has been written, or even that it has been written for their benefit. How much we can learn from those who walked with the Lord face to face rather than those who have claimed some strange experience mimicking that of the true apostles and prophets of long ago. To them it sounds good, feels good, many join in and for them that is the extent of their testing of the spirits. There will never be a true move of God in the midst of their seduction of lies. Reading the word has so much more to offer than listening to some tall tale.
I have been reading the book of Romans along with another friend – we have committed to taking 5 chapters and reading them every day for 7 days. I am amazed at the clarity that comes from reading and reading over and over these words. I’ve only been at it for a week, but already I can see much more clearly their meaning. I highly recommend this, for any book of the bible, especially for those areas that are hard to understand. The Holy Spirit IS our teacher. It is such a waste to believe that a person would have more to give to us than He.
I was working a women’s retreat a while back and the Lord gave me that very scripture in Revelations. I was so deceived that I did not see the truth in what He was saying to me as I stood and read it. I thought I had the truth then, but I was deceived as were all the rest. When I saw it here again it made me realize the blindness of those who read it but in the deception misapply the meaning. Truly, they need deliverance every bit as much as one who manifests the demonic. How much more demonic is it but to twist the meaning of the word of God, especially in light of the fact that Jesus Himself is the Word.
From John 1
1In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
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When you look back on 30, 20, 10 years in half truths and lies, it is so amazing that none of us were out of His reach. I can remember the very incident that got me thinking what I had been taught wasn’t the truth that sets free. That little incident was the beginning of my eyes being opened, and the beginning of having the courage to question.
Thank God.
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Yes, I can certainly relate to that moment. I had one too. 🙂
Blessings
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