Manhattan Declaration – New Age, New Spirituality

Putting this up for informational purposes. I don’t agree with the declaration, and no, I have not, nor will I sign it.

mk

Manhattan Declaration: “Perhaps Millions” Being Led Toward the New Age/New Spirituality

December 4th, 2009 | Author: Lighthouse Trails Editors

We are seeking to build a movement – hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of Catholic, Evangelical, and Eastern Orthodox Christians who will stand together.–Manhattan Declaration

On November 20th, a document called the Manhattan Declaration was released at an event at the National Cathedral in Washington, DC. The Declaration has received wide media coverage, and as of this writing about ¼ million people have signed the document, with a current average of about 10 people a minute adding their names (around 14,400 a day).

One of the four drafters of the Declaration is Chuck Colson who also co-authored a document in the 90s called Evangelicals and Catholics Together. The ECT is similar in nature in that it identifies both Catholicism and Evangelicalism as part of the Christian church and asks members of both groups to unite in areas that they have in common. With this new document, the emphasis is on morality: gay versus traditional marriage, abortion, stem cell research, assisted suicide,  etc.

According to a Christianity Today article on the Manhattan Declaration, both prominent evangelical leaders and Catholic leaders are main signatories:

The declaration has received national attention because, in addition to many American evangelical leaders, its [main] signatories include nine Catholic archbishops, the president of the Catholic League, the primate of the Anglican Church of Nigeria, and the primate of the Orthodox Church in America.

Given the fact that a large number of the main 149 signatories have directly or indirectly promoted advocates of the New Age/New Spirituality (i.e., contemplative/emerging), it is not difficult to see that (even with good intentions) the Manhattan Declaration may provide an appealing and subtle avenue into the New Spirituality  for a vast number of signers, many of whom might not otherwise have had exposure to it given the conservative tendencies of most of the signers.

Some may ask, how could this introduction to the New Spirituality possibly take place just by signing the Declaration–even if some of the main signatories are promoting it? The answer, in part, has already surfaced. On the Manhattan Declaration website, it now states:

Thousands of you have sent e-mails asking what’s next – a good question. The goal of those of us who drafted and signed the document is not just to get a lot of names on a manifesto, gratifying though that is. We are seeking to build a movement – hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of Catholic, Evangelical, and Eastern Orthodox Christians who will stand together alongside other men and women of goodwill in defense of foundational principles of justice and the common good. These are people who could expose the lie which so many in our culture have embraced about self being the center of life; and then winsomely present, in the words of St. Paul, “a more excellent way.” (emphasis added)

We are looking for people who will work in every possible arena to advance the sanctity of life, rebuild and revitalize the marriage culture, and protect religious liberty.

So what’s next for you?1

In answer to their question of “what’s next,” a Worldview Resource Directory** (see note at bottom of posting) is offered to signers as a place to find “excellent resources in support of these foundational truths.” The Resource Directory, located on the Manhattan Declaration’s website, has a large listing of books, DVDs, and other material compiled especially for the signers of the Declaration. But a close look at this Resource Directory should cause  believers to be quite concerned. For instance, there is a specific section titled “Spiritual Formation,” which carries recommendations to contemplative mystic advocates such as Dallas Willard, J.P. Moreland, and Kenneth Boa. The propensities of all three of these contemplative teachers are documented at Lighthouse Trails Research Project. One of the books that the Manhattan Declaration Directory recommends is J. P. Moreland and Klaus Issler’s book, The Lost Virtue of Happiness: Discovering the Disciplines of the Good Life.  This book is discussed in Roger Oakland’s hard-hitting book Faith Undone, an expose of the emerging church and the Purpose-Driven Movement. Oakland states:

Moreland and Issler believe they have rediscovered important spiritual principles that have been lost. Two of the spiritual disciplines the authors have recovered are “Solitude and Silence.”The book says that these two disciplines are “absolutely fundamental to the Christian life.” …[T]he isolation and solitude Moreland and Issler promote have definite Eastern mystical overtones.

The authors attempt to add credibility to this rediscovered spiritual discipline by quoting [the late Catholic priest and mystic] Henri Nouwen, who said: “A man or woman who has developed this solitude of heart is no longer pulled apart by the most divergent stimuli of the surrounding world but is able to perceive and understand this world from a quiet inner center (Nouwen, Reaching Out, p.38).

… Continuing to develop the idea of the lost art of finding the “quiet inner center,” Moreland and Issler state:

“In our experience, Catholic retreat centers are usually ideal for solitude retreats… We also recommend that you bring photos of your loved ones and a picture of Jesus… Or gaze at a statue of Jesus. Or let some pleasant thought, feeling, or memory run through your mind over and over again.” (pp.54-55)

… But that isn’t all they recommend. For example, Moreland and Issler provide tips for developing a prayer life. Here are some of the recommendations they make:

[W]e recommend that you begin by saying the Jesus Prayer about three hundred times a day. (p.90 – see Matthew 6:7 on vain repetitions)

When you first awaken, say the Jesus Prayer twenty to thirty times. As you do, something will begin to happen to you. God will begin to slowly occupy the center of your attention.(p. 92) (from Faith Undone, pp. 117-118).

Another book that the Manhattan Declaration Resource Directory recommends is Moreland’s Kingdom Triangle. In this book, Moreland makes his case for contemplative spirituality (Dallas Willard writes the foreword), encouraging readers to practice the exercises of St. Ignatius Loyola, the founder of the Catholic order, the Jesuits (p. 156).

It is essential to understand that by the Manhattan Declaration pointing signers to contemplative proponents like Issler, Moreland, and Willard, they are giving their signers the spirituality of Henri Nouwen, who at the end of  his life (having adhered to mysticism for many years) said:  “Today I personally believe that while Jesus came to open the door to God’s house, all human beings can walk through that door, whether they know about Jesus or not. Today I see it as my call to help every person claim his or her own way to God.”2

You see, Nouwen emulated the “fruit” of Catholic contemplative mysticism, which is interspirituality (thus negating the Gospel of Jesus Christ) (For a documented expose on the spirituality of Henri Nouwen and the spiritual formation movement, see A Time of Departing by Ray Yungen).

Ironically, Nouwen probably wouldn’t have signed the Declaration. In his book, In the Name of Jesus (a book highly valued by many of today’s Christian leaders, including Rick and Kay Warren), he emphasized the need for “Christian leadership” to move from “the moral to the mystical.” In other words, the emphasis of the Christian life should be more on the mystical (i.e., contemplative) rather than on traditional taboos of Christianity, such as those that the Declaration defends.

The Resource Directory for the Manhattan Declaration signers has far more than just Willard, Moreland, and Issler. They are also recommending Brian McLaren, an emergent leader who has publicly denounced the atonement doctrine of the Bible, calling it “false advertising” for God. McLaren is also a major proponent of eastern-style mysticism (i.e., mantric), which can be clearly seen in his book, Finding Our Way Again. In this book, McLaren twists Scripture by suggesting that the Old Testament priest Melchizedek was of a different religion than Abraham, and Abraham used a mystical practice to connect with Melchizedek. Thus McLaren draws this conclusion: “[W]e discover practices for our own faith in an encounter with someone of another faith” (p. 25). This is what occultists believe. Occultist Aldous Huxley said that mysticism is the “highest common factor” that “links the world’s religious traditions” and leads man to recognize the divinity within all things (see As Above, So Below, p. 2).

Even though Brian McLaren rejects some of the basic tenets of biblical Christianity and clings to mystical beliefs of other religions, the Manhattan Declaration recommends him (p. 16).

Other troublesome names that the Manhattan Declaration is calling “excellent resources”  and “like-minded worldview organizations and leaders working together for cultural transformation” (p. 7) are Buddhist-sympathizer Peter Kreeft, emerging church figure, Donald Miller (Blue Like Jazz), the contemplative-promoting Teen Mania, and Ken Boa. The book the Declaration recommends by Boa, Conformed to His Image, is a primer in contemplative spirituality. In his book, Boa favorably references practices like lectio divina and figures like Richard Foster (Renovare), Thomas Merton, and Thomas Keating (Merton and Keating are two of the primary pioneers of the current contemplative prayer movement). Boa also references mystic Jean Pierre de Caussade’s book Abandonment to Divine Providence, referring to the “sacrament of the present moment”, a concept often used to encourage people to enter the silence.

And here is an interesting note: Boa tells readers: “The spiritual exercises of Ignatius of Loyola incorporate these and other meditative techniques.” Ignatius of Loyola was the founder of the Jesuits (an order in the Catholic church), whose purpose was mainly to bring “rebelling” Protestants back to the mother church. The barbarity and cruelness of the Jesuits was unspeakable.

Another Jesuit priest, one who has indirect connections to the evangelical church today and one who is in line with the Aquarian Conspiracy [New Age christ-consciousness], is the late Pierre Teilhard de Chardin. In Chardin’s book, Christianity and Evolution, he makes these  comments:

[T]he Cross still stands … But this on one condition, and one only: that it expand itself to the dimensions of a New Age, and cease to present itself to us as primarily (or even exclusively) the sign of a victory over sin. (p. 219-220).

I believe that the Messiah whom we await, whom we all without any doubt await, is the universal Christ; that is to say, the Christ of evolution (p. 95).

What I am proposing to do is to narrow that gap between pantheism and Christianity by bringing out what one might call the Christian soul of Pantheism of the pantheist aspect of Christianity (p. 56).

In Warren B. Smith’s book, A “Wonderful” Deception, Smith reveals that Rick Warren colleague Leonard Sweet calls Chardin “Twentieth-century Christianity’s major voice” (AWD, p. 111 ). But Chardin does not represent biblical Christianity–on the contrary, he falls in a spiritual camp that embraces the “cosmic Christ,” which is the I AM (God) in every creature. Even though this christ-consciousness-in-all-people belief rejects the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, Sweet has openly aligned himself with Chardin. In Sweet’s book, Aqua Church, he favorably quotes Chardin saying: “Christ is in the Church in the same way as the sun is before our eyes. We see the same sun as our fathers saw, and yet we understand it in a much more magnificent way” (p. 39, Aqua Church).

While it is true that Leonard Sweet is not a signer of the Manhattan Declaration, this IS the direction that evangelical Christianity is heading. Please understand that this “vintage” Christianity (i.e. contemplative and/or emerging) is moving relentlessly toward the Catholic mystical tradition. So for Christian leaders, who already are nearly void of understanding the dangers of the contemplative/emerging movement, to stand together in solidarity with leaders of the Catholic church is only going to further remove the barriers in people’s minds that these two approaches to God are radically different, and even actually oppose each other (see Council of Trent anathemas).

Finally, we want to point out one more resource that the Manhattan Declaration is recommending: Renovare, which is the organization founded by contemplative pioneer Richard Foster. An entire book could be written on Foster alone, but in this article we are going to draw your attention to just one aspect. Those who understand the dynamics of the New Age/New Spirituality (i.e., contemplative) can research the Renovare website to gain further insight. One of the people whom Foster has used extensively for both his Spiritual Formation Study “Bible” and his  Life With God “Bible” is Walter Brueggemann. Brueggemann helped to edit these Renovare “Bibles.” Yet, Brueggemann, who could actually be considered a pioneer of the emerging church movement, resonates with atonement denier Alan Jones and actually endorsed the back cover of Jones’ book, Reimagining Christianity. In that book, Jones says that the doctrine of the Cross is a “vile” doctrine and that: The Church’s fixation on the death of Jesus as the universal saving act must end, and the place of the cross must be reimagined in Christian faith. Why? Because of the cult of suffering and the vindictive God behind it” (p. 132). It is THIS spirituality that the Manhattan Declaration is handing over to potentially millions of conservative Christians. And it is THIS spirituality of which we are compelled to warn against.

What is puzzling is that if these Evangelical leaders want to raise up morality in America, why have so many of them openly endorsed the emerging/contemplative spirituality in one aspect or another, which overall ignores or downplays a stand against homosexual marriage, abortion, and other moral issues that the Manhattan Declaration speaks of? Are they repenting? No mention of that. Many of them STILL are promoting the contemplative/emerging spirituality that will continue to remove traditional morality from our society. It seems rather distorted when these leaders are being seen as taking a stand for morality when all along they are promoting a spirituality that ultimately undermines it. We could give you example after example of the New Spirituality’s move away from morality (and we have in many articles these past seven years), and we could give you example after example of Christian leaders’ promotion of the New Spirituality and its cohorts (and we have also done that over and over again). Are these signers of the Manhattan Declaration truly concerned about the present moral condition of the United States? Probably most of them are. But it’s going to take a lot more than their signatures on a document–God will require much more.  For one, he is going to want them to renounce the heretical teachings of the New Age/New Spirituality.

Some media reports on the Declaration have suggested that these evangelical leaders are risking their very ministries by signing this document. This is hardly enough to be called a martyr for the faith. Those martyred in the past were often those believers who would not stand with the papacy and false gospel of Rome–hundreds of thousands of them were murdered for this.

For those who have any doubts as to the deceptive all-out efforts by Satan to destroy God’s truth by introducing “another gospel” (II Corinthians 11:4), especially in today’s world where the last days birth pangs are increasing (Matthew 24), we recommend you view a new film documentary titled A Lamp in the Dark (see link below). If you think there hasn’t been an ongoing move to destroy God’s Word and the true Gospel message, then this is a must-see film.  Before signing the ecumenical Manhattan Declaration, thinking that this kind of joint declaration is going to “save” America, get all the facts and ask the Lord for His wisdom (James 1:5-6),  not the dubious “wisdom” of Christian leaders today.

Lighthouse Trails is certainly not against standing up for morality. On the contrary. But one must look at the spiritual undertones that have found their way into Christianity today, including the endeavor addressed in this article. We must always keep in mind what Roman Catholic theologian Karl Rahner said, that the Christian of the future will be a mystic or he will be nothing at all. His vision is becoming more and more a reality.

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. James 1:5-6

More Information:

Five Opposing Responses to the Manhattan Declaration (John MacArthur (Grace to You), Jacob Prasch, (Moriel Ministries), Mike Gendron (Proclaiming the Gospel), Alistair Begg, Pastor Claude Stauffe (Calvary Chapel, North Amityville, NY)

“Evangelicals and New Agers Together” by Warren B. Smith

Should Christians Sign The Manhattan Declaration? by Pastor Adam Gislason

The Manhattan Declaration: Why faithful Christians SHOULD NOT sign it.–Cecil Andrews, Take Heed Ministries, Northern Ireland

Audio Clip: A Rebuke to the Manhattan Declaration Signatories by Ralph Ovadal

New Documentary Release: A Lamp in the Dark: The Untold History of the Bible

**Note: In the event that you cannot access the Resource Directory from the Manhattan Declaration website (if for some reason it is removed or becomes disabled),  you may view the exact same Resource Directory on Chuck Colson’s website. Click here.

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55 thoughts on “Manhattan Declaration – New Age, New Spirituality

  1. Mkayla
    The fact that Protestants are being asked to co – sign this document with Catholics should in itself raise a red flag.Just to clear things a bit here, i don’t like using either “protestant” or ” catholic” , but am doing so in order to contrast the vast doctrinal divide between the two.In essence, its believers co signing with unbelievers, or being yoked with unbelievers.
    The ecumenical movement have done a momenteous job in reducing the perceived difference[ make no mistake, the fundamental differences remain the same]down to a man in a funny hat who lives in Rome, to the point where most in protestant circles would have no qualm in signing this declaration. The catholics on the other hand would simply view this as bringing “protestants” back under their umbrella.
    I do think that a way to counter this thing would be to highlight the differences between the catholic doctrine and that of the true gospel.
    God bless

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  2. Mkayla
    I had no sooner finished that previous post than it dawned on me what this declaration really is.Though the wording of the declaration in itself may be admirable, and these social issues in themselves are worthy of defense, the document itself is nothing more than a manifesto of the ecumenical movement, a declaration of the common ground they have found, common ground found in social issues rather than those of higher truths based on the bible.I would say the battle lines have been drawn.

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  3. Amen, Ray.

    The Bible is our ‘document’, the only document, and no one needs to sign it, just do it.

    Whom is the document intended for? Is it to be presented to God? Do they think He wants to read it?

    Even signing a church membership form is ridiculous, before the throne of God.

    I think the Manhattan Declaration is very sinister, but it will turn out for good, as the real sheep will be separated from the chaff as they see that the leaders they thought were so wonderful are really blind.

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      • Edward, I have yet to meet commentors on my blog that fit the name “wimpy”. Some of us do not believe in uniting with others who do not hold to the true doctrine of the bible, those who have created their own religions and called it Christianity. There is a big difference in true orthodox Christianity and what is being practiced these days in some circles. This is obvious, as it is what I expose here. Those of us who do not follow along with them are far from wimps. It takes a lot of guts to make a stand and not follow the wrong crowd, or to break away from one.

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        • Again, respectfully and out of love, you are missing the purpose. This is not a declaration in the sense of witnessing for Christ. There are a few errors by the authors in it. But the purpose is to unite Christians to stand for our liberty to worship who and what we choose and to oppose laws against life and family. by the way, who did Jesus hang out with? It sure wasn’t the ones who tried to follow the letter of the law concerning old testament law. He chose to be with the sinners. thats who he came for.
          I was not suggesting your blog followers to be wimps. Merely Christians in general. And we are.

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  4. Just read the declaration. I think it’s addressed to the Obama administration to influence policy along Christian values and to try and stem the unGodly tide, of late.

    It’s also probably intended to garner unity of thought and action among Christians.

    Quote:

    “The nature of religious liberty is grounded in the character of God Himself, the God who is most fully known in the life and work of Jesus Christ.”

    No. God is ONLY known in the life and work of Jesus Christ!!! They deny He is the only way to God. Jesus is not even a ‘better’ way, He is the only way. There’s a big difference.

    The values presented in the document are very good, but they are a smokescreen, a cover, the vehicle to administer the poison of a false gospel.

    Trying to save America from it’s sin and yet denying the only Savior from sin.

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    • Ian, we are you finding the smokescreen in the declaration document? The resources and other outside influences I totally agree with.
      Your first two statements I agree with totally. I can tell your trying to be objective and maintain your integrity of faith but i dont see the document itself being sinister.
      Correct me where I am wrong as it concerns (uniting politically).
      Thanks

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  5. I hope I’m not off track here, but, I read the article it just leaves me drained. Isn’t it amazing how one man God’s son who died on Calvary tree has the whole world up side down. Even the world has a problem with his people the (Jews) The Lord said the way is so simple a child can lead the way – and here we have society in every country in the world pulling everything apart to discredit who Christ is. Men have made everything so complicated and tired some. When all they have to do is repent and read the word of God and accept. I guess I’m getting tired of keeping up to what’s happening next.they just don’t give up do they. Yet one has to know what’s going on. Heaven sounds sweeter as the days go by. And things are happening at a fast paste.

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  6. This is like a witch’s brew – a little bit of this and a little bit of that. The declaration says Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Christianity, but when you read this article and skim thru the list of “resources” it’s just about everything goes, except maybe Alister Crowley.

    To me, this sounds a lot like another build up to the one world religion. It’s not so much “Christian” in its foundation as it is “social justice”. Many Charismaniacs are into the social justice, considering it to be the same as “good works” that Christ did and we are encouraged to do in the word. It also reminds me a little of the seven mountains – “we must change this and this and this…taking them for Christ…”

    Nothing will change society, except and until the sinful ways of man are forgiven through the blood of Jesus – individual, one by one, not societal. All our good deeds don’t add up to squat until that takes place. And even so, the world will wax worse and worse, growing more dark and evil until the return of Christ. Mankind has become more in love with mankind (self) than anything else regardless of the words of this declaration.

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  7. Yes, it’s VERY deceptive. Dodgy.

    You mentioned their dodgy ‘resources’ list : When any Christian movement tries to be all inclusive, like this one, then when the ‘satanists for jesus’ or ‘the lesbian army for christ’ want to join, they can’t be refused, for that would be committing ‘social injustice’ against them, persecuting them for their ‘faith’. The very thing they’re supposed to be standing for.

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  8. Quote:

    “[W]e recommend that you begin by saying the Jesus Prayer about three hundred times a day. (p.90 – see Matthew 6:7 on vain repetitions)

    When you first awaken, say the Jesus Prayer twenty to thirty times. As you do, something will begin to happen to you. God will begin to slowly occupy the center of your attention.(p. 92) (from Faith Undone, pp. 117-118).”

    “something will begin to happen to you” : indeed, you’ll get a demon. The act of vainly repeating mantras actually is an action of rejecting the LIVING God, the Person, refusing to believe what He has promised in His Son, and therefore, by default, to invite demons in.

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  9. I signed the Declaration and believe it is great for people to sign that they will make a stand against the attacks of Christianity from the elite liberals and empowered democratic party. We are rapidly losing ALL of our rights. not just those of the christian foundations. I agree there are bad elements to the “What Do I DO Next portion of the website, but it is seperate from the Declaration.
    If you gathered 10 professing Christians in your home you would more than likely have 10 different points of view on the Christian faith. The Declaration is not about uniting all faiths or saying all faiths lead to God. They absolutely do not. It is about uniting those of the christian faith, albeit some are in error, to combat the legislation of the erradication of christianity, our religious freedom, the lawful destruction of marriage, family values and the right to life of the unborn.
    With all the so called Christians in this country there would be no way Obama could have been elected if they all voted with their spiritual conscience, yet all of our churches act independantly of themselves and do nothing to unite as children of God to protect and stand for what is right in this country and we are absolutely getting our butts kicked by the enemy of Christ because of it.
    All of us who believe in Christianity need to come together to voice our opinions loudly and take action on choosing candidates to vote out these Godless criminals running our country and put asside philosophical debates of the differences of faith for another forum. It is time to take action simply to protect our laws of the constitution that allows us to worship Jesus in the first place or all else will matter no more.

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    • Hi edwardsthegreat.

      It’s a good argument and one that will bring differing positions. Personally, I’m not into signing things related to my faith. I recently did that (completely different issue) and am sorry because I don’t think we should have to put our name on a piece of paper to have agreement. I won’t stand alongside a Catholic because I don’t believe we are of the same religion. They use the name of God and Jesus but aside from that there is not much left to compare that makes us the same.

      Some will come together as a voice, I have done that myself. Some will not speak out but will pray. What is important is that we do what we are called to, without wavering from the truth of who we are. I would not side with a Catholic any more than I will with a Buddhist for a good cause. We have to ask the question is this Declaration truly about Christianity, or is it about social justice? They are not the same thing. In addition, no one is going to tell me if I can worship God, pray, etc. because I believe this is granted by and commanded of us by God, not a ruler.

      Choosing candidates – there weren’t any candidates this past election. I was one who wanted to throw the whole thing back and tell them (the dems and the Repubs) to start over. Why vote when there is no one worthy to fill the shoes of the position of American President? I am not so sure that God raises up godly men to run our country. At least I haven’t seen any in my lifetime. And to add, as much as I liked and admired Sarah Palin, we should consider it a blessing she was not elected into the position of VP seeing what we now see. Many will divide on whether or not our call has anything to do with politics and we had a little bit of a debate on that here some time ago. I also believe, but won’t get into details just now, that there are other forces driving our country. I wonder and often have, how much our vote and our voices truly count.

      I have said this many times, that nothing will change a country unless the people as individuals repent of their sin and follow Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. When the heart changes, life changes and we will not need a piece of paper or judge’s ruling on divorce and abortion because the people will no longer have that in their hearts. This is the faith America was founded on. The hearts of men have long since grown cold and prideful, thinking otherwise.

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      • Following are a couple of quotes from an article I came on that I think fits this situation. The entire article can be read at http://guardinghisflock.com/?p=34

        Dan Coates, himself an evangelical and former politician once remarked that, “The political process is very limited in what it can do for our spiritual and moral problems.” Discouraged members of the religious right must know that while our faith can define, and sometimes inspire people to do right, our example and exhortations will not change our nation’s heart. Only through the Gospel will God do that. And that must first begin with “vival” (i.e., life), and then perhaps continue with revivals.

        Good laws cannot change bad people. Only grace can do that. The only end for wickedness is divine judgment. It was for Israel, and it will be for America. So beloved, don’t be discouraged by political ill fortunes of the present. Press on. Keep the faith. Live the right. Speak the truth. Be good neighbors and loyal citizens. Vote truth, right and your conscience, all the while knowing that there will be no earthly utopia this side of God establishing His rule on earth, a kingdom “wherein dwelleth righteousness” (2 Peter 3:13). In the meantime, continue to pray, “Father . . . Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven” (Matthew 6:10).

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        • >>The only end for wickedness is divine judgment.>>

          I believe the only end for wickedness is the coming of Jesus when He sets up His kingdom. Until then, men will continue to be wicked. Aside from that one comment, I agree with the jest of what the author is saying here.

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  10. It’s an interesting subject, bcos it does affect all of us. And there’s a lot of loose ends in the debate.

    There’s the Biblical concept of doing right FIRSTLY bcos it is the right thing to do, regardless of what we gain from it, or stand to lose. This is rarely known these days.

    Ultimately, we should be led by the Holy Spirit in all things.

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  11. Mkayla
    Just wanted to highlight a little truth subversion in the text of this document;

    : Papal edicts in the 16th and 17th centuries decried the practice of slavery and first excommunicated anyone involved in the slave trade;

    Papal edicts also initiated the various inquisitions resulting in who knows how many lives were taken , simply because people dared to question catholic doctrine.We could go on for some time if we really wanted to expose the ills of the catholic church, but to be fair , we should also do the same to faiths representative of the other signatories on this document, who knows what skeletons lay in the cupboard?
    I guess what I am saying is that there is little to be gained from signing anything that is not representative of kingdom values, our allegiance is and should always be to Christ .There is no reason why we simply cannot uphold these values in our own families first , and then beyond that within our spheres of contact, be they relatives or friends. I don’t believe that the Lord is requiring much more than that from us.
    God bless

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      • We? No, not I. So you have to ask, were they truly Christians? How can a person own another or treat another as the lesser and still truly worship God? It cannot be done.

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        • Good Lord Mkayla, the bible is chock full of slavery and servitude by people of God. This practice has basically been world wide down to this country up until 150 years ago and still exists in parts of the world. And treating others lesser? Christians are the most guilty of this. Go visit a church with thrift store clothes and see how you are treated.

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    • Ray, if you would like to put something together along the lines of this Papal 16-17th century, the inquisition, Catholicism and all that I would be more than happy to post it as an article here. I know very little of the history, only bits and pieces and something about their practices. I think it would be some valuable information if you are willing. (this goes for the other faiths represented in the document of course.) Think about it. 🙂

      I guess what I am saying is that there is little to be gained from signing anything that is not representative of kingdom values, our allegiance is and should always be to Christ .There is no reason why we simply cannot uphold these values in our own families first , and then beyond that within our spheres of contact, be they relatives or friends. I don’t believe that the Lord is requiring much more than that from us.

      I completely agree. Each time I think of this document I see NAR all over it, tho it may not be intended exactly that. I just see man, elitism, follow me, do this…blah blah. An interesting point, Dutch Sheets’ awakening tour is for the same purposes – the faith, the constitution, separation of church and state…. I see a crazy unity all of this whole “movement” coming up and maybe it’s something we need to pay attention to and keep an eye on. (I’ll have more on this under that topic later.)

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      • I also agree with Ray’s sentiments on this. This is our calling, and the common calling of all who are truly Christ’s. Of course, the document doesn’t deny this, but it goes beyond this, without this reality being there to begin with, in most cases.

        Is it right to pretend that people who pervert the gospel are our brothers and sisters? Or to have anything to do with them?

        Would Jesus or His Apostles align themselves with false apostles and false prophets for the sake of ‘making a moral stand’? Would they be prepared to sacrifice the truth for a common cause? Obviously not.

        Wherein lies the ROOT of the problems with Christianity today, practices and living/beliefs alien to Christ Jesus; we need to put the axe to the root and not do window dressing.

        Having this view doesn’t mean we’re belittling those who signed the declaration.

        Like

        • Ian, I think part of the problem is that many Christians don’t really understand Catholicism or other religions. Someone says the name Jesus and Christians fall all over themselves. We see this over and over again. We clearly are not the same and this is something that needs to be exposed. We need to differentiate and draw the line. It reminds me of those who teach it is ok to call our God Allah, or that Isa is the same as Jesus, or that we worship the same God just because Muslims believe in one god – Allah. We are not the same, not even close. Those who do not read or study the bible will not see this. After all, how many times do we hear that the true church is Catholic? How many times in movies do we see this portrayed? There is this underlying belief out there that needs to be clarified for what it truly is.

          And I do agree, we don’t think less of those who have signed. 🙂

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  12. If you believe having Sarah Palin as VP makes us better off with Obama and his idiot sidekick Biden, then I believe we come from different planets altogether and I better skip the debate. No offense but your dead wrong on that one. Some of your other arguments I can contemplate with serious thought. but the way i see it their are some of us Deciple’s of Jesus who are more like peter and willing to put up a fight. Wrong it may be, but in the end just as your arguments most Christians run, hide and deny when the heat is on. If risking a hair on their head is required you get what you have now. A silent majority. Why vote? (Example: Obama) The number one reason to vote is to pick a side. You will either stand for what is right or for what is wrong. If you stand on the sidelines it is as good as a vote for the bad. Jesus didn’t come to the earth to be a politician. Politics was not his plan. However he spoke up and voiced his opinion, The truth and they tried their best to stone him. Although he would only die the way he did he was still human and risked injury and had to escape. (or call down angels) but he didn’t. Instead of remaining silent he took a risk to speak the truth. After all, the spoken word was the only vote they had and in many cases they died for it much like hundreds of thousands of American soldiers did for what allows you the right to vote.(or not) Signing your name to your faith? Again, why not? God writes our names down in the book of lambs because of our faith! Why can’t we? In todays society, much like in the day of Jesus those in Authority were religious figures at the local level ({Sadducee} etc.} look at the words Jesus spoke to them. Not very kind were they?) and government (Godless Romans) ruling over all. We just haven’t got to the point yet that our opinions of our faith will have us hung on a cross upside down. But that day is quickly being ushered in by this current administration. The day is coming. That is if you believe in Revelations. Like Ian said, doing right firstly. Yet I believe you can do both. Otherwise lets fold up and lay down and let them have their way with our well wishes. We will get there just as fast with the Christian’s settling for being happy to only debate amongst ourselves whom is holier. I do not understand the comment on God not raising up Godly men to run our country. God raises up Godly men. If they are in a position of authority and are Godly what is wrong with that? The old Testament is full of Godly Kings. Besides, all in authority haven’t the right to be in authority without the highest authority allowing it. Romans 12. We should do right firstly whatever we do.
    Catholics, Protestants, Islam. All religions. We all fall short. What makes you a Christian is believing that Jesus was born with deity, lived sinless, died for our sins, was raised from the dead, and confess him as your lord and savior. Nothing else matters because anything else is religion only. I could live six thousand years trying to be a Christian and fail miserably. I can do nothing good without Jesus. It is only his mercy and forgiveness that allowed him to pay our debts with his perfect blood. Nothing else matters. I know plenty of Catholics that believe all of that.
    lets agree to allow ourselves to judge by the fruit and not by the tree that grows it.

    Like

    • Edward, you need to read again my comment because what you are claiming is not what I’ve said at all. For instance, re: Palin, I was only commenting in light of her recent resignation it is probably a good thing she did not get into the office of VP as she more than likely would have resigned. I said this because so many were all for her, I being one of them. This was part of my argument that I felt there were none in that election fit to run this country. There still are not.

      I don’t think the current administration is worth anything, in fact, I think Obama should be impeached. I have written to him, our governor, the senators and finally to the republican party and have posted writings here on my blog. In fact, some months ago I wrote to the republican party that they move for impeachment! I have taken a stand, voted my conscience and certainly prayed for the current situations in our country. In fact, there was a moment when I was one of those who wondered if I would be arrested at any moment for speaking against his “snitchery request” related to this horrendous health care bill. (See my posts under the Obama cat for more info) I’ve hardly been silent. In my comment, I simply meant that some will remain silent, by choice. I keep remembering in the bible when Israel demanded a king and finally one was given. I see America in the same situation with Obama in office.

      You say there are godly leaders in our country? Who are they? I do not see many in office who hold to true Christian principles. I didn’t mean that God does not raise them up at all or ever, but I fail to see them in America. Even those who claim to be of the Christian faith are soon found out otherwise.

      Jesus voicing his opinion as you stated was not a political one. He did not come to set up a government or even a kingdom. So, the reasons the crowd was against him was because he pointed to their sin, which they did not like, but he did not point out their political views.

      Like I said in the beginning, there will be differing opinions. The argument on whether Christians should be involved politically, or how, is a huge one. America is not the country it was only a few decades ago. It certainly is not the country it was when founded long ago in the 1600 and 1700s. There has been many quiet Christians between then and now. We are looking at and seeing a generation of people who have never even read a bible and some have never heard the gospel. Again, that is the only thing that will change America. We are facing this generation of people who have a live for the moment mentality. For instance, maybe they believe that abortion is wrong for all the apparent reasons. But, they will also believe that there are certain situations that make abortion ok. When they hear people rise up against abortion, they believe it is unfair because they are without foundation. This generation does not see in black and white, they have many gray areas in many different issues. Without that moral basis, how can they be expected to have a change of mind, by some law? By some middle aged fat man in a suit and tie telling them they are wrong? No. Never.

      I will not argue your decision to sign this declaration, and I respect that you have made that decision based on your faith. That is fine with me and that is all any of us are required to do. I ask the same of you in my decision to not sign it, nor agree with it for the reasons I have already stated. That is my decision based on my faith and my relationship with God at this point in time.

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  13. Edward, you need to read again my comment because what you are claiming is not what I’ve said at all.

    “And to add, as much as I liked and admired Sarah Palin, we should consider it a blessing she was not elected into the position of VP seeing what we now see.”

    Only responding to the meaning of what you wrote. If it is a blessing that Obama and Biden are in office rather than Palin being VP that would suggest you prefer them to McCain and Palin being in office now. And that is clearly not a blessing.My specific response was from that specific line.

    “You say there are godly leaders in our country? Who are they? I do not see many in office who hold to true Christian principles. I didn’t mean that God does not raise them up at all or ever, but I fail to see them in America. Even those who claim to be of the Christian faith are soon found out otherwise.”
    I don’t argue with you there. And that is where you have to pick the lesser of two evils until people get the point. We have to systematically weed them out. But it takes votes and unity.
    “but he did not point out their political views.”

    yes, their religious practices were their political views very much so. Their laws were derived strictly by their religion which did not compromise the Romans law and therefore the order of the people under their rule. That is why they were allowed to hold their own courts and handle their own matters until and unless Roman law had to step in to settle disputes that could not be handled locally.
    I respect your opinion and decisions. Your right it is up to us all individually. My argument is simply that Christians will not stand together as one without bringing up doctrinal differences that divide us. We must guarantee the enforcement of our constitution and its intended meaning in order to freely be able to worship so those as you say that do not understand right from wrong. They also need to learn the constitution, they don’t because it isn’t taught anymore. Im sorry, my passion comes over as being a bull headed person that wants to fight and argue. I just believe we are in dangerous times and need to take action as Christians.

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      • For one speak up to those outside of my comfort zone of like minded believers. Two, continue to vote and support candidates that do not compromise Christianity. Three encourage others to do the same. Four, get involved with “those” of us who are willing to take this country back at personal risk. That is for starters.
        But I digress from this pointless back and forth. There have always been more to sit on the sidelines than to get involved. So be it.

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    • Christians will not stand together as one without bringing up doctrinal differences that divide us

      Doctrinal issues like praying to Mary and other “saints” as tho they are God? That is not a just a doctrinal difference. Or, forbidding to marry women and molesting little boys in their lust for them? Not a doctrinal difference. Exalting one man over the other in their elitist and biblically forbidden hierarchy – father, priest, pope… How about the belief that taking communion which is to be done as a remembrance, instead done as an act of actually crucifying Christ again each time it is taken? The infatuation with the crucifix, holy water, candles, incense and garments which truly have no spiritual value or meaning. How about Christians leaving the true faith, converting to Catholicism?

      And the other issues this article points to – the emergent, practicing as a Catholic and it’s ways, or as a buddhist, or hindu – contemplative methods that bring demonic possession, and certainly not taught in the bible?

      Can I stand with these just because I want to save American Christian values? NO. Not ever. Because I am not like them. I do not believe what the do, nor do I practice what they do. That is the bottom line. For me it is not a matter of just American Christian heritage we are talking about, but the very faith instituted by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is not a matter of whether some man tells me I can worship God or pray in public or whether or not say “merry Christmas”, it is a matter of my own choice in remaining separate from those who claim Christ, yet do not know Him.

      This declaration sounds good. Unity is a big buzz word right now, even in the craziness of Charismania it is being said over and over again. But I will not unite with those who do not believe as I. There is a difference in being with sinners and being with those who claim Christ and yet deny Him in their words, their practices and those who pray, meditate and contemplate the ways of “experiencing” gods of other religions. It is demonic.

      Like

  14. Pingback: Funding The Third… whatevertheycallit « m'kayla's korner

  15. Quote from the document:

    The nature of religious liberty is grounded in the character of God Himself, the God who is **most fully known** in the life and work of Jesus Christ.

    No. God is ONLY known in the life and work of Jesus Christ!!! Exclusively. They deny He is the only way to God. Jesus is not a ‘better’ way, He is the only way. There’s a big difference (Gal. 1:8-9). He’s not the best option from a number of options, He’s the only option. Not like comparing a BMW, a Mercedes and a Porsche and then declaring the Mercedes to be the ‘better’ one; the one in which driving pleasure is ‘most fully known‘.

    To Edwards, what’s your take on this? Do you believe the phrase ‘most fully known’ is an acknowledgment that God CAN be known other than thru Jesus Christ? That’s what it literally means. They knew full well that if they had worded it, ‘God is ONLY known thru Jesus Christ’, that they would have alienated perhaps the majority of christendom.

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  16. I see, you will not unite with fellow American’s that want a constitutionally controlled government that serves the people instead of the people serving the government because others may not believe like you do. That is fine. Toss the baby out with the bath water.
    You have failed to see what my point is. I blame that on my lack of writing skills to communicate my message. But I never once have argued uniting spiritually with those of false teachings. The point has been missed completely.

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    • But this isn’t all Americans uniting. It is written, endorsed and signed by those who follow other religions claiming to be Christians. I am not uniting with them in this declaration. I haven’t tossed the baby out as I still plan on voting and writing more letters or whatever when the time comes. But I will not put my signature on a document that represents me as something I am not. To me that is a spiritual union.

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  17. Is it any wonder the church is in the state it is in? Just when I thought it might be safe to go back to church, now I have this to contend with. Great, just great. A great revival in the endtimes? I think not.

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  18. Hello, I noticed with the link to Pastor Ovadal’s sermon “A Rebuke of the Manhattan Declaration Signers” that he is named as Pastor Roger Ovadal. His name is actually Ralph Ovadal. I think the mistake originated somewhere other than this site, but we thought we would let you know so that it can be fixed. Thank you!

    Like

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