Oral Roberts Dies

Oral Roberts Dies

In no way rejoicing, but for those who care to know, Oral Roberts today has joined the growing list of Word Faith teachers who have died.  Where once again, a man who claimed he had the power to heal others could not, like his predecessors, heal himself.  The cause of Mr. Robert’s death was complications of pneumonia according to Melany Ethridge, his spokeswoman.  He was 91 years old.

In poking around the Web, I came across a website of one who was closely tied to the Oral Roberts ministry and was himself a Word Faith preacher and also one of Oral Robert’s bodyguards.  Here, I felt it would be profitable to share his reflections since he walked where many of us have not walked regarding the Word Faith movement.  And to God be the glory, by His grace, this brother was delivered from the Word Faith movement and is now a Southern Baptist preacher.

Speaking to Oral Roberts death on his blog, he writes:

I do not write this gladly or mockingly. I worked for Oral Roberts for two years. I was one of his bodyguards. I delivered his newspaper every morning. I watched over his family as they slept. I was a huge fan and admirer.

But Oral Roberts died sick today. Just like all of the famous Faith Healers, he has died sick. Kenneth Hagin died of heart disease although he claimed to enjoy Divine Health. He was on heart meds for years.

EW Kenyon, the founder of the Word of Faith Religion and author of the confession brings possesion [sp] message, died from a malignant tumor.

The Word of Faith Message is a false one. It does not work, even for the most famous preachers.

Most assuredly their message is a false one regardless of what the deceivers like Jesse Duplantis continue to spout forth.  The only option for those trapped in this movement and in bondage to its damning legalism is that you leave this movement even as Junker Jorge did.  And that you come to understand and believe the true gospel where Jesus came not to deliver us from sickness, pain and suffering nor to give us wealth and richers, but the one where he came to set us free from sin and give unto us the gift of eternal life.

______________

Just to add to this article, the teaching, motivation and claims of healing, health and  prosperity this man and many others teach under the word of faith or positive confession movements are the same false teachings given by the International Association of Healing Rooms supported by Cal Pierce, located throughout the world.  Many others who claim divine health and healing as part of salvation suffer sickness and disease and eventually die from the very health related causes they once scoffed at. Like the article says, leave this movement if you are at all involved in it.

mk

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68 thoughts on “Oral Roberts Dies

  1. Re: “a man who claimed he had the power to heal others ” Did he claim that?

    ———————————————————-

    There’s a lot of issues here. If a believer can believe God for good health, i say, more power to ya. Why resent that? It’s only wrong when believers go BEYOND that, and feel puffed up that they have special faith, and start teaching that Christians shouldn’t ever get sick, and if so, they are weak in faith etc…

    The ‘persecution’ works both ways. If i gave examples of ‘my faith’ for my own life, and what God has done, i could have people jumping on me with all sorts of labels and accusations. What do you make of it when a person, who is bitten by malaria mosquitoes regularly for 12 years and never gets malaria, even though many all around are getting it? Scientifically impossible? yes. But if God gives him the faith for that, then it is possible. Am i proud to mention that? Maybe i should keep it a secret. 🙂

    I’m against WOF, but i’m also against the other extreme.

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    • I agree with you. It is one thing to heal or believe for healing (faith) BIBICALLY. But that is the dividing line, where the rubber hits the road. Oral Roberts is a name I know from my childhood. I never followed him personally, but remember many who did. And being wof, many have been deceived by his excessive claims of a such a gift. I am hoping that those who follow him and those like him will see that like Hagin and others who claimed perfect health died sick. They didn’t just go to sleep, they died of illness. (Remember, I came out of the healing room ministry that teaches these very things and now I expose them.)

      Watch out Ian, you let the secret out. Now bazillions will be hopping on planes, trains and automobiles to find you. 🙂 I might be one of them.

      Blessings.

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      • You’re funny. 🙂

        Just send money, no need to come here personally 🙂

        Vit D3 and Omega 3 oils (cod liver oil) also really boost your immune system to avoid sickness, and they are a gift from God.

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        • Send money…let’s see it’s coming up on the year 2010. So how about a gift of $2010 for a multiplication of blessing in the year 2010. Cuz 2 -2 – 2 meaannns multiplication!!!! Of course, we won’t turn down a gift of $2.10. A gift of $210 shows much greater faith. Send your best gift! Wanna know the meaning of those numbers…2 and 10? They really do have meaning and so with your most faithful and- blow- it- out- the -door -of -believing- like a crazed-looon gift of $2010 we will send to you the most sought after, hard to obtain on your own, John Paul Jackson’s latest set of numerology cards. OOps, did we say numerology? How can that be, it’s the occult! JPJ really wants you to understand that it is your right to enter into supernatural experiences as the pagans already know about. Christians need to catch up to this knowledge as it is their right as part of the kingdom! So get out your atm cards, find that check book, click the link below and send in that gift and you will be well on your way to understanding the mystical world of numbers in your life, in your dreams. Think of it. When you go to that check out stand and the number pop up on that screen you’ll be able to whip out that card and know what is being spoken to you at that moment! When you go to the gas station! When you open your gas bill! Aannyytime you see a number, for now on, it is hidden knowledge revealed! Receive your blessing! Do it now, in the next 2010 seconds!

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          • I have to add, if my above comment offends anyone it is not intended to. If I am making fun of anyone, I fell for stuff like this. And the comment from JPJ and the pagans is true. It’s what he teaches stupid Christians like me. I did get numeric messages at the check out. 🙂 Thank God Jesus saves.

            I got this in my e-mail a moment ago, not a moment too soon.

            1 Timothy 6:6-8

            Yet true godliness with contentment is itself great wealth. After all, we brought nothing with us when we came into the world, and we can’t take anything with us when we leave it. So if we have enough food and clothing, let us be content.

            So the next time someone wants to bless you in exchange for your hard earned cash, you can remember this verse and write IT in your checkbook.

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  2. I have a book by an atheist called “The Faith Healers” he did an investigation on Oral and has all kinds of documentation that Oral hired experts to help him craft letters that would bring in money. Its a scam. Seed-Faith made him rich. They owned a whole city block in Tulsa that they had walled off. Several nice houses. I worked in the gate security shed. I really enjoyed working there. I got to help the Roberts move from their guest house to the new remodeled mansion. Those folks were rolling in the money. I made $12 and hour, but my job was so easy and I had a blast doing VIP security for the big WOF gurus. Funny, they preach Psalms 91 and need protection. Hagin didnt need any. His house was on the golf course where anyone could knock on the door.

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    • Thanks for your contribution. People need to hear stories like yours to help them see the truth. How sad that the gospel, the suffering and death of Jesus Christ has been turned into money making schemes as this. I can’t even get around that one.

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  3. This is a comment I put up on DefCon. I am adding it here for those who pop in to this article not understanding my intentions. Those of you who know, bear with me. 🙂

    I came out of the “healing room ministry” from the International Association of Healing Rooms under the leadership of Cal Pierce (John G. Lake).

    It is claimed the word sozo in the Greek means to be healed, saved, delivered therefore “absolute healing is in the atonement for all”. This is what happens when knowledge is put in the hands of stupid people. Absolute healing is a great lie that so many have been deceived by.

    While I was in this “ministry” (gag) I saw many, many people struggle in desperation as to why they have not “manifested” their healing. A curse, a word curse of a another believer or a witch, a generational curse, hidden sin…not utilizing the correct words during prayer, or having the right person to pray over them, not enough prayer, their failure to claim the healing or ignorance in how to “keep” the healing, reciting healing words or healing scriptures at various times throughout the day to “effect” the healing…the list goes on. I know of nothing more evil than to put a person in this bondage. It is horrendous, demonic and so many suffer under it, needlessly.

    I don’t know if Oral Roberts taught this. I do know those who follow Pierce’s methods do, and I would bet one of them is the famed and followed Bill Johnson. (They are pals)

    Lies like this need to be exposed – who, what, when, where.

    I can think of nothing more horrifying than to be separate from God for an eternity –especially to know that what I taught –or parroted– put someone there. The realization of my own error and how – somehow – I had become a great offense to the God I claimed to follow and serve – was the wake up call for me. Let’s pray that others can get that same call.

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    • As a Christian I have been exposed to many different teachings over thirty years. Not so many as the last few years, but what is the deal with this movement? Cal Pierce? Bill Johnson? Healing rooms? What goes on in this movement? Are the people involved in this, in so much bondage they can no longer think for themselves? Do their leaders think for them? Encourage separation from their families and friends? I am searching for answers.

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      • Hi.
        Yes people have stopped thinking for themselves and reading the bible too. This is the Word of Faith/Prosperity – Health Gospel out of the latter rain, Kindgom Now or Dominion theology. Heard of them? As far as I know WOF, etc. does not teach separation from families and friends; at least not yet.

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  4. I thought about this man last night and his grieving family. I thought of all those 91 years he had here on this earth, such a long time he was given to turn from his false teaching. I pray that his family, in their grief they would cry out for truth and repent and begin to uphold, teach, preach, write about the truth in our Lord, that He does heal, but not everyone. And as I write this I will continue to pray and to add that their poorly gained riches or pride for “who they are” do not keep them from seeing or wanting to know the truth of the gospel as it has been presented in the word of God.

    As the article stated, there is no joy in the death of this man. It is most grievous –especially in the light of what he now faces. Who wants to follow those footsteps?

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  5. Uh oh – looks like some will use any event to further their own cause –

    From firekeep.com

    Quote:
    “Kim Clements on the subject (via prophetic utterance)
    “When there is a disappearance of something, a greater work comes into existence. Jerry Falwell just died, Billy Graham shall go—some of the greats will go very soon. When they do, let this be a sign that this is the dawning of a new era of the miraculous,” says the Lord, “because greater works will you do in My name because they go,” says the Spirit of God.

    Kim Clements also stated earlier this year: “this year many will ask ‘Where is the God of Oral Roberts?’”
    Endquote:

    So somehow this implies that Clements prophesized Roberts’ death – and rather than question some of Oral Roberts false prophecies and teachings (see http://www.ondoctrine.com/10robero.htm), I guess we are in for more spiritual silliness (nice twist of scripture there, Kim).

    On a more serious note, I share M’Kayla’s condolences and prayers for his family.

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    • Hi taher.

      The link didn’t work but I didn’t see anything on Kim there at ondoctrine.com – did I misunderstand?

      I do remember hearing Kim “prophesy” about three greats that would die soon and how their “mantles” could be picked up. But, this was 2, 3 years ago…How prophetic is it to say 3 greats will die…

      …because greater works will you do in My name because they go,” says the Spirit of God. They go? They? Aren’t these the words of Jesus..because I go to my Father?
      John 14: 12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

      But, where is the God of Oral Roberts?? Well, does he think God has left us? Gone on vacation? Or does he think Oral has a different God and Kim wants to know where he is… I guess if Kim is hearing the words above it has to be another god since it isn’t the One who wrote the bible. Excuse me, but the stupidity of these words! (And everyone in Kim’s concerts are dancing and chanting and saying Yeah God! caught up in the fun, the emotion and singing along with the little ditties and they cannot hear the lie.)

      Does is sound stupid to say that Kim was in a dream I had last night?

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  6. I think when it comes to faith, we are sometimes fickle people, who can easily misunderstand what faith is. Just remembering the times when i thought, or felt, like i had the faith that God had answered a certain prayer when He had not, and then i realized that the ‘faith’ i was ‘feeling’ was in my emotions or soul – something i had worked up. So, when we ‘go ahead’ of God and don’t seek His will, then there’s a counterfeit faith we can have. True faith can only be in the revealed will of God.

    And this is one of the problems with WOF. Our faith must be rooted in a yielded life to the LORD Jesus, yielded in love. WOF is about covetousness and grasping, not about yielding to and serving the LORD. Wanting the things He can give, but not wanting Him.

    When we think about our saving faith, our faith in the LORD Jesus, then we realize that our faith is something rock-solid, immovable. It’s not a feeling that comes and goes, it’s who we are now, bcos we have believed from the heart.

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  7. With the fact that the LORD has protected me from malaria, miraculously (as well as from many other things) ; i don’t have faith like a WOF-er does. It don’t neurotically ‘confess’ all the scriptures on healing over and over. Rather, i try to daily acknowledge whatever i have received from the LORD and maintain a deep, heart-felt gratitude, never ceasing to give Him thanks and praise. I think it’s genuine thankfulness which keeps my faith ‘alive’. We can only thank God for what we have received, not for what we have not received.

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  8. I don’t believe it’s God’s perfect will for a believer to be sick. If it was His perfect will, then that’s what we should seek after and believe for: we should be asking God to make us sick so that we can be in His perfect will.

    And,when we are sick, for whatever reason, what are we going to do? Will we pray, LORD I accept this sickness as your perfect will, so don’t heal me. ?

    We are fickle people.

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  9. Ian some people I know do pray like that, I have heard them. I wish it was God’s will to heal everyone like you say. Even Paul suffered from sickness, and so did his associates.
    The Bible says that Jesus was aquainted with sickness.

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  10. I think there’s a ditch on either side. We can become semi-paranoid and confess, confess, confess the Word out of a sense of fear that something bad (sickness) will come on me if I don’t – And we can think this is faith.

    The other ditch is that EVERYTHING is God’s will – this is fatalism like the Muslims believe. So in this case there’d be no use fighting/resisting anything, right? I call this the Doris Dayology. Whatever will be will be, just lay down and take it.

    I guess as I’m thinking, there’s a third ditch. The ‘I am an overcomer and I’ll take on every demon under every rock cuz I have all authority’ ditch.

    It’s easy to fall into any of them because it’s easier to follow somebody’s teaching and seek after THEIR experiences and try to have a repeat perfomance – easier to look for the equation that will work everytime- than it is to abide in the Lord and really follow and inquire and hear and submit and trust. And frankly, I think there are simply some questions that will not be answered this side of eternity.

    In all cases He promises to be near. I don’t think we’ll be rejected because we don’t have it all figured out, or are living with questions unanswered. This is not our home, but He promises to give us what we need: Whether that is faith to believe for what seems impossible, or comfort for the what wounds us, or patient endurance for what we do not understand. Anyway, that my 2cents.

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    • I had a very close friend who died of cancer. She was younger than me with kids younger than mine. She was a blast to be around, creative, encouraging and we spent many hours in her house getting our hair done. She was one of the bestest friends I ever had. She was diagnosed with breast cancer stage 4, had surgery, reconstruction and it went into her brain. She had surgery again, got out of the hospital a few days later and went to a women’s retreat at church. Then it went into her liver. I hardly ever heard the woman complain even when her body as completely shutting down. She kept upholding God’s will and her faith. She was something to watch. When Jessica died she was one of the first at my house even tho she was sick and tired and it was very early in the morning. She loved me and supported me and helped with food. My grandmother passed away a couple of weeks before and she was there, organizing food then too. There are so many things I could say about her! But, she died – despite the prayer and the faith, she still died. These are the things we don’t get answers to. Some get sick and are healed, some are not. I have to say that seeing this friend in action brought glory to God. It wasn’t the fact that she was sick, it was the fact that she BELIEVED. And guess who’s dancing whole and healthy today?

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    • If God is so willing to forgive sins, why are there so many people going to hell?

      As if it’s God’s fault.

      Sinful man always judges God first, and fails to judge himself.

      Carnal Christians do the same: when they get sick, it could never have anything to do with them, it’s always laid at the feet of God. 🙂

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      • P.S. I wasn’t inferring John is carnal.

        Re: ‘Jesus was acquainted with sickness’, no, He was acquainted with grief and sorrows and he ‘carried our sicknesses’ , meaning, He healed them. It doesn’t mean He was ever sick.

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  11. I guess my biggest issue with Roberts would be how he came out in the 80s and said God TOLD him there was a mandate to get money to build something (Don’t remember what. A hospital?) OR GOD would kill him. That was the thing that got me more than even his word/faith stuff. That hurt the church more than anything. He either lied or was following a false Jesus. Or both.

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    • If you go to my comment with the link from the LA Times article it tells about that, along with other things, like how he saw a 900 ft Jesus. Similar to things we are still hearing (some experiencing) today.

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    • When the likes of Billy Graham gush over Oral Roberts in their obituaries you have to wonder how they so quickly divorce themselves from reality, such as the threats, the 900 ft Jesus etc…. The world knows and honors it’s own.

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  12. When we take the things of God and make them absolutes we get ourselves into trouble. Someone takes the scripture that states Jesus healed all He touched, teaching others this scripture means it is God’s will that all be healed. They begin to build and teach false doctrine misleading many. This is why it is so important to see these topics in light of all the scriptures.

    On a fleshy basis, when the relationship with God becomes all about the person, the sick one seeks out any and all methods to become healed. It is a type of pride of life. No one wants to be sick but when the healing becomes the focus, everything else becomes off balanced. These are the ones that will travel to far away places to receive healing, spending much, gaining little. These are the ones who will look at others who have been healed, wondering why they have not. What about “Your will be done”?

    The One who heals is within, through the Holy Spirit. Tell someone they are sick because of something they did, or their lack of faith and watch them respond. While it is true illness and disease comes on those who are sinners, it can also come on those who have chosen to walk in the Spirit because we live in a fallen world. True, we can be healed, but Jesus did not die so that we could all live long and healthy lives. He died to bring forgiveness to sinful man, bridging the gap of separation between him and a holy God, restoring relationship. This should always be the first message given when the Gospel is preached. But, in these places of healing, we hear about the power of God to heal and not the power of God to save. God is much more concerned about our spiritual “health” than He is our physical one.

    So, while it is true that God does heal people of sickness and disease, including mental ones, we can’t know with any certainty who will or will not be healed. We don’t even know for certain why one and not the other. We are told to pray and to believe and leave the healing work and the decision making up to God. That is part of the mystery. Those who think they have become little Gods or little representatives of Jesus have distorted views and their beliefs and teachings serve themselves, not God. If there is any glory for God in those who suffer under illness, it is not in the suffering, but in the One who they believe as their focus has turned away from the flesh to the Spirit. It will be seen by all.

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    • Agreed on all your points here, sister.

      It’s such a big subject (actually, 2 subjects, health and healing) that, i think, it’s impossible to write a definitive summary of the subject in one article or even one book, as there are so many things to take into consideration. The best we can do, and should do, is to state the applicable truths, point by point, and put all the truths together. That way there’s a chance of getting the whole picture, rather than a fragment. The immature will grasp at a few of the points and reject the points which make them uncomfortable, which don’t fit their limited understanding of God, whereas the mature will take on the whole counsel of God.

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  13. Stated,

    “…These are the things we don’t get answers to…”

    There was a godly, elderly couple that I served as a mail carrier. The husband was bed ridden in poor health. His wife, being in seemingly good health, died suddenly due to a heart attack. The thoughts of family and friends was that the husband would die before his wife. The next evening, I visited the man to give my condolences. During our fellowship, he spoke of his dying before his wife then he made a statement that fits the above quote, “In my walk with the Lord, I’ve learned never to question God”

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    • Which aspects of Christianity today accurately reflect who Jesus is?

      I mean, does the fact that modern Christianity has become apostate reflect on Jesus? Does it mean that He has failed, or let them down? Does apostasy in Jesus name reveal the perfect will of Jesus?

      I mean, if i were to let modern Christianity define the truth for me, and if the experience of the majority of Christians became the rule i lived by, i would be very confused.

      I’m trying to get to the root of this reasoning.

      It’s good to know what truth/truths we will live by.

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      • >>I mean, if i were to let modern Christianity define the truth for me, and if the experience of the majority of Christians became the rule i lived by, i would be very confused.<<

        Now you see where some of us are coming from. But no matter the lie or who the liar, it does not change the truth. Apostasy does not change who God is. But it does change how others see Him, expect from Him, and so on. It does exactly what the word warns us of, it brings another "jesus". (Who of course it not Jesus at all, but a demon.)

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  14. On health. If we could get statistics from heaven, i wonder what would be the number of the disciples of Jesus who’ve been kept well and in service to the LORD by the power of the Holy Spirit, by grace? When, on the natural level, they should have got sick and died, BUT for God’s grace? Probably millions. But we tend to overlook that fact and not give God the glory. In our lives, if God’s grace and care had not prevailed, then the enemy would have inflicted us with so much to prevent us preaching the gospel.

    Some disciples are just a wonder to the unbelieving. Like Paul. Yes, he had an eye disease of some sort, but he kept going anyway, traveling the known world with the gospel. How can a sick man do that? And when he was stoned and assumed dead, when the saints came and prayed, this ‘dead’ man, who was frail with age, whose body was bashed to a pulp, just got up and walked away……. It’s a wonder. It doesn’t fit most people’s ‘theology’. Surely he wasn’t a Baptist 🙂

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    • On the subject of the mystery of the will of God in these matters: Since i’ve been born-again, nearly every time i’ve been sick (which is not many times) the LORD clearly showed me that He was disciplining me as a son bcos i had disobeyed Him. I had also, bcos of sin, lowered the shield of faith.

      Now, i’m allowed to say this. I can’t speak for another but i can speak for myself. 🙂

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  15. What if i were to ask this in a Baptist church?: Is the LORD Jesus Christ busy, going to multitudes of Christian homes, and afflicting them with sickness? If so many believers are sick, in the perfect will of God, then Jesus must be very busy inflicting so much sickness? He is full-time making Christians sick, but He can’t heal, or protect them from sickness?

    And, if it’s the devil who is causing Christians to get sick and die prematurely, then why does Jesus hand them over to the devil for that?

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  16. Or, do we just chalk it up to fate?, believe in fatalism, like Hindus? Bad karma coming round? Everything is fate? There is no rhyme or reason? God could strike you down today with sickness just arbitrarily, with no other reason than it’s His good pleasure to do so?

    Or, is it all natural? You are what you eat?

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      • No, I see where you are coming from. It is a lot to think about and a great discussion.
        We know curses came on people in the o.t. for not following God’s laws, Deut 27-28, but is that the case today in the life of a believer? If I get sick does that mean I am in sin? What if someone blows their flu germs all over me and I get the flu, does that mean I am cursed of God or in sin? Or is it just a symptom of living in a fallen world?

        Again, absolutes. You said you were ill and the Lord showed you it was because of sin. But does that mean every time?

        Do Baptists really believe that? I was raised Baptist, altho that was a long time ago, I don’t remember anyone telling me Jesus would make me sick back then. But maybe it has to do with what kind of Baptist…

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  17. Ian
    There wasn’t a less controversial topic on which to muse?I read a passage not so long ago, it was one of those moments when the penny finally drops , in this scenario, the penny boomed when it hit the ground.Healing was only one area that received a new understanding after having read this particular verse.I guess like many others here, there are always questions about healing.If the recipient of our petitioning is not healed, or worse, if they are to die , is it a result of a lack of faith on our part, or maybe we did not petition in the right manner, or maybe we didn’t correctly discern the cause of their sickness, or maybe, maybe , maybe?
    I have had to face these scenes in both my own family and church and have had to watch people abandon their faith because the outcome of their prayers did not match the reality of the occassion.

    Ezekiel 36:22
    Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God, I do not do this for your sake o house of Israel, but for My Holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations where ever you went.And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations in their midst, and the nations shall know that I am the Lord , says the Lord God.

    I was shocked, it wasn’t about me, its all about the Holy name of God.Its true that God has called us into His kingdom, and this by the blood of His only Son, and we cannot deny the incredible love and sacrifice to that end, but all of this is for His glory, Gods ways are not our ways, if bringing glory to Himself means that some are going to endure sickness while others enjoy a healthy life, are not both for His glory.This same argument could be extended to many aspects of our lives, but the ultimate purpose remains the same, to the glory of God.

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  18. When people sneeze their flu germs over me , why don’t i get the flu? I can’t remember when i last had the flu, over 20 years ago.

    When the malaria carrying mosquitoes bite me, why don’t i get malaria?

    Getting sick is normal. Of course it doesn’t always mean we’ve sinned. If you can believe for supernatural protection/health so that you are able to preach the gospel,and serve God’s people, then praise God. Not everyone can believe that.

    I agree with what Ray is saying about the glory of God. If someone is not living for His glory, how can His real power be in their life? He won’t give supernatural dunamis to Christians who just live for themselves, for their own whims and entertainment, nor will He give it to be merchandised and prostituted.

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    • Just on the matter of a Christian suffering sickness, thinking God gave them the sickness so that He will be glorified. Then, if they really believe that, they better not pray for healing. They better not seek relief, otherwise they would be fighting against the purpose of God. God wants them sick, they want to be healed – there’s a rift there, yes?

      True, IF we are sick, and IF we trust the LORD and not worry, and not complain, but glorify Him, THEN He is glorified. If i got sick today, that’s what i would do, AND i would ask Him to heal and request others to pray :

      Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall deliver the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he has committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
      (James 5:14-15)

      This is what we do over here. Believers are exhorted to call for the elders, immediately, when there’s something serious. The sick should call. We shouldn’t go chasing after them if they don’t believe they can be healed.

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  19. Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, with which you shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.

    What is the nature of the fiery darts our faith can prevent hitting us?

    All manner of wicked schemes and temptations of the enemy. Not just against our minds, but against our bodies.

    The devil DOES afflict people with diseases. He has the power to do it. He certainly has the desire to do it to those who are preaching the gospel, who are witnesses to Christ. Disease is one of the fiery darts launched against us.

    If disease is a fiery dart launched from satan, from demons, then your faith can stop it striking you.

    Our faith is ** IN ** our fellowship with the Father and the Son, by the Spirit. Our faith ’shield’ is not a physical ‘thing’, it’s a heart trust, in love. My shield is up when i’m walking with Jesus, in the Spirit. I’m not self-aware i have a shield, i’m only aware of His glory, for HE is my shield : Psalm 18:2, 28:7, 119:114, 144:2.

    Whereas, WOF teaching is that the ’shield of faith’ is something you generate yourself thru repeating Scriptures over and over. The real shield is a relationship.

    But, even in that Holy relationship, if, when satan’s fiery arrows come against you, you were deceived into believing that satan’s work was actually a gift from God, then your faith in that area would be dead and ineffectual.

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  20. What is your (anybody) take on 1 Corinthians 11:29-31? Do we get to ignore this? I gotta admit, I don’t really know what it means to not judge the body rightly, and I have to admit I don’t relish the implications that I could actually be at fault in my own sickness. Really, I am serious, what does this mean?

    29For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.

    30For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.

    31But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged.

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    • I thought it had to do with communion because that is what is being addressed in the previous verses. But it also speaks of eating and drinking as we would a meal, seeing to ourselves and not to others. “Unworthy manner” being in sin and not recognizing it and repenting, carrying on as the Lord is not aware and in so doing bringing judgment on ourselves, taking what we need and forgetting the needs of others…

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    • 1Co 11:27 Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
      1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
      1Co 11:29 For he that eats and drinks unworthily, eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.

      How does a believer partake of the LORD’s supper worthily? By examining themselves first, that they are not willfully unrepentant. If they willfully continue in sin and then partake of the LORD’s supper then they are guilty of the body and blood of the LORD.

      Yes, this passage tells us that many saved believers get sick and die bcos of this sin. It happened then, it’s worse now.

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      • I seriously need to let this sink in and study more. Sad, sad, sad that in my experience I have heard this expounded on maybe once or twice in church, while positive confession and warfare strategies (of the NAR version) have been taught regularly.

        I mean, here is this starkly obvious cause of sickness right there in the Word of God, and meanwhile many Christians are busy doing warfare against evil spirits by blowing shofars and dancing with banners. I’m not trying to be funny. I know many brothers and sisters whose focus is just that.

        Is it fair to say “eating the bread and drinking the cup” does not just mean the physical communion act, but professing to be a believer since Jesus is the bread sent from Heaven and we partake of Him? I’m just thinking out loud here, I don’t have my Bible out and haven’t studied further.

        “carrying on as [if] the Lord is not aware” – wow

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        • Yes, and I have heard it taught in that truth while at the same time giving blame to the person who is sick because of word curses spoken against them and their having believed the lie, walked in it, and have become sick because of it, or generational – ancestral curses, hidden sin (let’s go through a list until we find the one that is hidden), etc. It’s the truth mixed with a lie again.

          The simple truth is that we know when we are sinning, so just repent and get on with life. We don’t need this – maybe I said something…maybe I believed something… maybe someone said something about me… Besides, part of the work of the Holy Spirit is to reveal sin. And I agree with you — Is it fair to say “eating the bread and drinking the cup” does not just mean the physical communion act, but professing to be a believer since Jesus is the bread sent from Heaven and we partake of Him?— Taking communion should be done as a much more serious act than many make it out to be, with much more consideration.

          I know that group with their shofars and banners. Most don’t have a clue of the meaning of either, and certainly cannot blow a shofar properly. The sound is much like a sick and dying animal…

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  21. “I mean, if i were to let modern Christianity define the truth for me, and if the experience of the majority of Christians became the rule i lived by, i would be very confused.”

    So true, it is a constant thing to discipline myself to only judge by the examples we see in scripture.

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  22. Ian, you would flip out if you ever read john piper or heard him preach on Job. I have totally renounced the wof and charismatic movement, but I still choke when I hear him teach

    He has written a book called dont waste your cancer

    its also funny how many Baptist get healed but when I was wof it seemed no one ever got healed

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  23. John, i’ve seen John Piper a number of times on TV and i didn’t flip out. He has some good advice for people who are terminally ill, etc. I would say the same thing, glorify God.

    I keep away from anyone with a fake smile, who puts on an act to manipulate peoples emotions, and who makes a lot of money prostituting the things of God.

    I also left WOF and the charismatic movement 20 years ago. If you think that what i’m saying is WOF or charismatic then you’ve not understood.

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  24. On another blog we were talking about how the devil loves partial truths. This is what this movement is all about. Jesus healed many of sins and diseases – but he isn’t a genie in the bottle. There is a deeper understanding that is needed that comes with a love of the truth – without a love of the truth people go sideways on the Truth.

    Because of the harm of these movements, I think that sometimes people swing too far the other way – and don’t trust that God wants them better through and through. They believe He desires a life of lack, which brings to mind when Jesus said he couldn’t heal because of the unbelief. The problem is most people who proclaimed Christian faith are really putting faith in something else – a preacher’s words, a false image of God, in the words themselves but not in the true living God – because they don’t know Him. They haven’t taken time to know Him in His Word.

    Rachel
    http://stirringthedeep.com

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    • The problem is most people who proclaimed Christian faith are really putting faith in something else – a preacher’s words, a false image of God, in the words themselves but not in the true living God – because they don’t know Him. They haven’t taken time to know Him in His Word.

      This is the truth in a nutshell. And try to tell them otherwise! Eeesh! Run for cover!

      Blessing Rachel. 🙂

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