Audio link and teaching notes follow~
Recently I received a comment from Norcal with a link to a teaching by Bob DeWaay, “How to Discern a True Work of the Spirit”. I think this is perfect timing for those who are struggling with the truth behind these “revival and outpouring meetings” which are just revving up again. From my own experience and that of others it can be hard to determine what exactly is going on in these meetings and videos.
When these well known and supported men and women come in the name of the Lord, making claims of healing, salvation, restoration, miracles, signs and wonders we often make the mistake these claims are true because they sound so good. And the truth is, they can be pretty close to the truth.
A quote from Charles Spurgeon –Discernment is not knowing the difference between right and wrong. It is knowing the difference between right and almost right .
This is why we need each other and why we are described as a body (Romans 12:3-8) Each of us has a function just as each of us has a part. Together, under the headship of Christ, through the the work of the Holy Spirit we support each other and contribute that which has been given to us. Then we are able to better discern, to help those who struggle and to better support the body! Of course we all need to be grounded in the Word of God. There is no excuse to not be!
Following are the thoughts from Norcal:
While studying and preparing to teach our small group “how to test the spirits”, I came across Bob DeWaay’s sermon titled, “How to Discern a True Work of the Spirit”.
It’s the simplest, bottom-line method I’ve heard for testing the spirits. In short, the premise is based on Jesus’ words in John 16:13-14, “However when He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14) He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.”
The work of the Holy Spirit is to glorify Jesus…the birth, life, work, ministry, substitutionary death and resurrection of Jesus. In other words, the gospel.
All meaningless signs (laughing, shaking, gold dust, drunkenness, etc) that don’t glorify Jesus in the proclaiming of the gospel are proofs that their source is not the work of the Holy Spirit.
Here’s a link to the mp3 audio of the sermon:
http://www.twincityfellowship.com/audio/sermon_mp3/20071104_tcf_sermon.mp3
Here are the teaching notes–
How to Discern a True Work of the Spirit
Bob DeWaay November 4, 2007 Twin City Fellowship
“The Spirit of Truth . . . He will bear witness of Me” (John 15:26)
How to discern spirits
1John 4:1, 2
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
How to discern spirits
1John 4:3, 5
and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; and this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them.
The Holy Spirit motivates believers to confess the truth about Christ
1Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I make known to you, that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
Testimony about Jesus is the work of the Holy Spirit who inspires all prophecy
Revelation 19:10
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
True prophets testified about Christ
1Peter 1:10, 11
As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful search and inquiry, seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.
The Holy Spirit inspired true prophets
2Peter 1:20,21
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
False prophets “deny the Master”
2Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
They deny the master by “going to far” and not “abiding” in the teaching of Christ
2John 1:9
Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
The Holy Spirit Testifies of Christ
John 15:26
When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, He will bear witness of Me,
The Holy Spirit Testifies of Christ
Numbers 24:2, 17 (NKJV)
And Balaam raised his eyes, and saw Israel encamped according to their tribes; and the Spirit of God came upon him. . . . . “I see Him, but not now; I behold Him, but not near; A Star shall come out of Jacob; A Scepter shall rise out of Israel, And batter the brow of Moab, And destroy all the sons of tumult.”
John the Baptist testified of Christ
Luke 3:16
John answered and said to them all, “As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.”
Simeon Testified of Christ
Luke 2:25, 26
And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon; and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Spirit was upon him. And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.
Simeon Testified of Salvation
Luke 2:27 – 30
And he came in the Spirit into the temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to carry out for Him the custom of the Law, then he took Him into his arms, and blessed God, and said, “Now Lord, Thou dost let Thy bond-servant depart In peace, according to Thy word; For my eyes have seen Thy salvation,
God testifies as the Holy Spirit descends on the Son
Luke 3:22
and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, “Thou art My beloved Son, in Thee I am well-pleased.”
Jesus testifies about Himself
Luke 4:18
“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovery of sight to the blind, To set free those who are downtrodden,”
To blaspheme the Holy Spirit who anoints “Messiah” and who testifies of Him is to never be “released” from sin.
Luke 12:10
And everyone who will speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven [lit. “released”] him.
By the Spirit they will testify of Christ
Matthew 10:18 – 20
and you shall even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, do not become anxious about how or what you will speak; for it shall be given you in that hour what you are to speak. For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
Witnesses in the power of the Spirit
Luke 24:46 – 49
and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and rise again from the dead the third day; and that repentance for forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. and behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”
The Holy Spirit will empower them to testify of Christ
Acts 1:8
but you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.
Peter testifies of Christ
The Apostles witness to Christ
Acts 4:31, 33
And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak the word of God with boldness. . . And with great power the apostles were giving witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all.
Stephen testifies and is martyred
Acts 7:55, 56
But being full of the Holy Spirit, he [Stephen] gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
Paul is filled with the Holy Spirit
Acts 9:17
And Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight, and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”
Spirit filled Paul immediately proclaims Christ
Acts 9:20
and immediately he began to proclaim Jesus in the synagogues, saying, “He is the Son of God.”
Confession and Abiding
1John 4:13 – 15
By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
Knowing the true work of the Spirit
1John 4:2, 3
By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; and this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
Applications and Implications
1) Confessing Christ is not merely uttering words
2) Overcomers are born of God and believe the truth about Jesus Christ
1) Confessing Christ is not merely uttering words
Matthew 7:22, 23
“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’”
1) Confessing Christ is not merely uttering words
Matthew 7:24
Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine, and acts upon them, may be compared to a wise man, who built his house upon the rock.
2) Overcomers are born of God and believe the truth about Jesus Christ
1John 5:4, 5
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world– our faith. And who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
2) Overcomers are born of God and believe the truth about Jesus Christ
Revelation 3:5
“He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels.”
2) Overcomers are born of God and believe the truth about Jesus Christ
Matthew 10:32, 33
“Everyone therefore who shall confess Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.”
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Thanks Norcal! 🙂
Here again is the article I put together on the Holy Spirit after I came out of similar experiences –Holy Spirit Manifestations
Romans 15:5-6 Now may the God of patience and comfort grant you to be like-minded toward one another, according to Christ Jesus, that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
m'kayla's korner 
I’m so happy that I happened across this site… is there a way that I can email you directly? I’ve found many of my questions answered here, but I have some, offline pointed questions I would love to ask. They’ve been eating at me for awhile; and even though my under-shepherd is not part of this charismania mess, I have a few friends I’m close to, who do participate and it’s becoming rather disturbing.
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Hi Kay – without meaning to pry, I do encourage you to enter the discussion group with others here. It is likely that many of your questions are shared by other readers, and your answers may come from others who frequent this site.
That said, I’ll share 2 things :
1. first, an email from a good friend who is caught up in this mess (to give others an idea of the typical thought pattern of the deceived)
QUOTE
“This past thurs I went spur of the moment to — to a women’s conf with XXXXX. I skipped allll the sessions but went to two of the night ones. The first one was good but the second was great. It was, funny as this may seem…Heidi Baker. I have a very similar anointing on my life but it expresses differently. The Lord has called me to love everyone He brings into my life and that I’m not to choose. So it was great. She’s a very happy person and like you noticed, very purposeful about loving Jesus. She had a fire tunnel (do you all know about those?). The presence of God began to fall on me while I was still about 50 yrds from the fire tunnel. XXXXX and another friend basiclly carried me to it. About 10 feet in I had a huge power encounter and it flew me back. I guess a man caught me and they carried me out of the line. I couldn’t move for about 45 min. His beautiful weighty Glory rested so heavily on me that my body couldn’t respond. Then XXXXXX asked if I wanted to finish the tunnel. I thought, “Are you nuts? I can’t even move my hand!” But after awhile they got me up and carried me through again. Heidi prayed for me two times but I was toooo incapacitated to know. It took another hour before I could walk to the car and XXXXX had to drive us back to the hotel. I felt sooo loved by God. I went with such a desperate hunger in my heart to be kissed by Him. I didn’t hear anything in the Spirit during the experience, but I’ve noticed a strength return to me, a purposeful strength to love again all that He brings my way. He is so beautiful and kind.”
ENDQUOTE
Naturally, this friend does not want to hear anything I have to say about discernment or the true work of the Holy Spirit – afterall, my “mundane” life and scripture studies can’t compare with the “feel good” supernatural shock that she receives at these conferences. But I do keep praying for her.
2: I am always looking for the truth in these spiritual matters. I came across this site, which refutes, point by point, using scripture, many of the common arguments and statements of those who support this charismania (in fact, some of the comments are word for word what I hear from my friend)
http://teamtruth.com/articles/art_wordoffaith.htm#power
I hope that this helps others.
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There is something very strange in her meetings. I went to one a couple of years ago and saw all kinds of stuff, had all kinds of words and impressions. Yes, I was stupid enough to go thru that fire tunnel! But hey, I was already infected. These meetings are nothing to fool around with or to make light of. There is a very powerful spirit taking over. Because the church has lost it’s true focus and purpose it is asleep in the truth behind this power.
Well, I have that “mundane” life and I prefer it to the demonic thing that was out to eventually either kill me or take my mind since it had nearly taken my salvation. Now I prepare for the true work of the Holy Spirit. I prefer the sanity and peace that has come on my mind and my body. Impartation by touch? No thanks. I got the real thing.
Thanks Taher. I took a look at that site. Imagine, all the digging and reading I have done for my blog, and there it is in one quick snap! 🙂
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Hi Taher, it sounds like your friend is very similar to my friend. I was hesitant to post at first b/c my issue is not with my pastor’s teachings…but with a friend’s behaviors. I’ll post most of what I sent to m’kayla.
————–
My friend Tee attended a ‘prophetic conference’given by John Paul Jackson (& crew). When she came back from this conference, she was shaking, and jiggling a storm!! I didn’t know it at the time, but she had went through one of those ‘fire tunnels’. We met up soon after the conference and as she talked she went into this trance state, and began to shake violently. She spoke about seeing those signs and wonders (feathers, anointing oil etc) at the conference and how she had prayed and received a [double anointing]. (IN MY HEART, I’M LIKE IS THIS BIBLICAL). This was the beginning.
Over the past few months, the shaking has turned to rapid head movements (like Stacy Campbell’s), back bending during worship service, lying prostrate at inopportune times [LIKE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SIDEWALK], shrieking loudly (whether in public or private), uncontrollable laughter that turns into uncontrollable sobbing, frequent prophetic ‘utterances’, and now it’s turned into her ‘speaking on behalf of the Lord”. When she delivers a message from “The LORD” in person, the message is normally accompanied by her closed eyes, weird postures, or shaking her head very fast. She even sends emails on HIS behalf, she says that “he” dictates the emails for her. [OH MY GOODNESS].
Part of her previous email stated [on behalf of “the LORD”] — ” (my vessel) walks and talks daily with THE LORD her GOD and HE, yes YESHUA, speaks to her and speaks through her yes she is a holy vessel appointed unto ME for such a time as this to speak the WORD of THE LORD for THE LORD her GOD is her mouth.”
Mkayla pointed out to me that the whole email message focused on HER and did not point to Jesus or God. She’s right, and I could never see this before.
She sends emails like this almost ALL of the time now. It has gotten to the point, where it’s pretty much impossible to have any conversation with her ‘in the natural’. Everything is supernatural, everything is a holy spirit manifestation. The email she wrote to me comes from her notion that she believes that I don’t think that God speaks through her. The caveat, is that I do believe he speaks through her, however the words that I’ve received from her are normally words she speaks when she is herself, and speaking like a regular person. When she prefaces many of her ‘words from God” with “Thus saith the Lord”…I automatically shut down. I don’t believe it.
A few weeks ago, something happened that has made me search, and throw down the gauntlet. At one part of the evening, she asked a friend to “come and dance with your Lord”. I couldn’t believe what I had heard. It appeared that she had now elevated herself to the status of our Lord, Jesus???
Here are the kickers and questions, I guess.
* Sometimes when she ‘prophesies’ the things are true, many times… it is like throwing seeds on concrete (useless).
* We are to know people by their fruit, and the fruit that primarily drops from her tree is love….
* She is very giving person and I have witnessed God use her in some very interesting ways.
* When I’ve told her that I don’t always believe her, she doesn’t respond
* In her natural self, she is sometimes controlling and manipulative
* Many in the church thinks she’s demonic. I personally do not think she is a demon, I think she is under the influence of the demonic.
* Sometimes when she speaks, the word “divination’ has dropped into my spirit.
* Is it really possible to impart ‘demonic’ spirits on someone else. the 1 Timothy scripture that most people recite deals with Paul telling Timothy to be careful not to anoint everyone into ministry. I have not been able to come across a scripture in which someone could impart darkness to someone else. If that’s the case, then my friend having hands laid on her during the ‘fire tunnel’ would be moot. As an aside, my friend found out months later that one of the participants in the tunnel was a former witch.
* What really is our role in stuff like this, if the person that may be under the influence of these demonic forces is not our leader, but our fellow brother/sister?
*Is it gossiping to speak to my pastor about this? This type of behavior is not wide spread in the church. Should I speak with her before I speak with pastor?
*A former elder in the church ‘commanded demons’ to exit her before. Her response what “what are you talking about”? She does not believe any of this is demonic. She does not listen to anyone, really except her ‘self’ and her god?
*Should I just accept this as is…she doesn’t have a following, and she’s not hurting me?
*She would be absolutely crushed if she found out all that she has been experiencing is not from God.
I read about the kundalini a few months ago, but I must ask, is it biblical? Sure, everything isn’t in the bible…but this stuff is confusing.
Lastly, there have been a few things that have happened to her. One of the most recent things, she fell and hurt herself badly while she was praying and having one of her ‘moments’. She called her wound, a ‘war wound’, as if our Father made her fall and sent her to the doctor. Some of this stuff is just asinine.
I’ve been told I think WAY too much, but God gave me this analytical brain for a reason. I don’t want my questioning to hurt her, but I would like to feel better about my sister in Christ.
I appreciate any comments!!
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Kay,
I hope you consider the teachings of the word, even tho things aren’t exact. No, you won’t find “kundalini” or proof of it in the bible. But you will find with a little research practice of the worship of “other gods”. This is what they were working to keep out from among the followers of Christ. I pointed out Kundalini because it is becoming so obvious something is at work behind these false impartations. The more research that we do the more we see it. To simplify, they do not come in the true name of the Lord. They do not teach the bible. Some are given over to practices of other religions and teach them as Christian. I have found it is important to get to the root whenever possible. So, Kundalini or not, God is not the source of knocking this person around and causing her physical and mental and social harm. You said here that she would be crushed if she found out this is not of God… – Yes! This is what repentance is all about!! Her restoration is true work of believers – biblically. To not tell her would be a great loss.
In addition, John Paul Jackson is waaay out there. If you go to his blog site he is all caught up in supernatural experience and he writes about it as a legit revelation from God. I took 3 of his courses and whatever gets imparted at those trainings during the prophetic/laying on of hands has the power to set your dreams and visions in a whole new ungodly direction – among other things.
Another point, all these false teachers, prophets, revivalists – whatever they call themselves – have this false impartation thing down. It is one of the things they have in common and we are seeing them all come together in their meetings, revivals, outpourings, etc.
I know it is confusing. But rest assured if you are willing, the Lord will lead you to the truth to help you understand. If your friend is willing He will lead her out of it. But she has to be willing to look at herself. 🙂
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So we are all on the same page, I am including the response to the concerns Kay posted her, that I sent to her last night thru e-mail.—————
First of all we are called to love others, especially the brethren. However, there has been a big push for the loooove lately, a little too much for our own good and it is keeping people from acting in truth. Jesus loved but He didn’t put up with liars and false teachers. He called the Pharisees and money changers for what they were, exposing them in public. He called out sin for what it was and he never shirked from doing that. In Timothy we see Paul giving instructions on how to deal with heresy admonishing him that it will creep in. You see, the church is so far from what it was intended – an intimate gathering of believers who loved the Lord and each other, who ministered to each other in gifts and song and scripture. They kept each other safe from the destructive teachings outside. We have moved so far from this picture! Our churches are huge in number, there is no true intimacy and we are told to love and to accept just about everything that comes our way. Some have been told from false teachers and prophets that they are not to speak against them. There is nothing further from the truth as we see in the word, we are to expel false doctrine and to have nothing to do with what is false, to expose it for what it is. To tolerate and allow it is to participate and to be guilty of the same!
I think it is a good idea to approach your pastor about your friend. This is not gossip, it is helping. You love her and the best way to do that is to show her the truth. You will not “demonize” her by telling her the truth, dear. She’s already demonized! “Do not judge” is not applicable in a situation such as this. It is a twisting of scripture to used to keep you silent. Even if these are your friends, they have been taught wrong about this meaning.
She is hearing from a familiar spirit(s) which is why some of the words can sound right on and why some of them seem to fall flat. These words can be very accurate and very misleading. Familiar spirits or spirit guides know a great deal about our lives and they simply speak it back to whoever wants to participate. This is the false prophetic movement that is so big now. The message you wrote out in blue is all about her, not about Jesus so it is not prophetic or from God. He does not share His glory, He does not elevate man. It was interesting that she kept using the word “vessel”. Is this how our God sees us as one of His children? No. The word is detached, cold.
If you consider Gal 5:22-23 – the fruits of the Holy Spirit to these manifestations, – gentleness, self control, kindness – you see that they cannot be of God for they do not reflect His character. Yes, supernaturally many things can happen, we can’t fully explain God and we shouldn’t have him in a box, blah, blah – but – God will never violate His word or His character. It is there written out so that we can determine what is, and is not of Him.
The manifestations are more than likely what is known as Kundalini or serpent power. I know that sounds crazy. When I first read about it I thought the writer was crazy. But, the more research I did and the more truthful I became with myself and the manifestations I was experiencing and that of others, the more sense it makes. The church is so far from true teaching it can no longer identify the work of the Holy Spirit. I have read and read on this topic and am still doing research. I have watched videos of those under the Kundalini power, which stems from Hinduism, and their body movements are just like the ones we see in these false revivals and meetings. It also give a sense of euphoria, warmth, well being.
Just because your friend appears to love does not prove “fruit”. These impartations come with it a false love. The manipulation and control (which is normal in this) you see in her is the true fruit. Why? Because real love does not manipulate. “Fruit” is determined in how a person conducts themselves, how they live their lives – are they Godly, do they seek after God, etc. She is not seeking after God, but after this imposter who has come in His name. In her condition she should not be allowed to speak or to manifest in meetings. The disciples and apostles never tolerated the demonic. We should not be, either.
I also went to a Heidi Baker meeting. I loved her. I thought she was so intimate with God and I was jealous to have what she did. Strange things happen at her meetings and yes, I went through that fire tunnel. I can’t explain to you exactly how this demonic “impartation” happens exactly. We are told in 1 Timothy 5:22 Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people’s sins; keep yourselves pure. Charismaniac false teachers and prophets always want to lay hands on people. It is unbiblical to do so and I believe this warning in Timothy is a very important one. Kundalini is passed through the laying on of hands or through a touch, usually the forehead. I believe Christians have to come into agreement for this to actually take place within them, even tho they may not understand the truth behind it, they agree with the minister. Protection by the blood is only for those who truly walk with the Lord. Those who depart and go after other “gods” are no longer under such protection.
When the power in my hands which felt like electrical current did not heal; when people were not being saved or delivered in the true biblical sense I began to ask God why. It is because the power, the anointing, the authority is for only those who follow hard after Him. I started there, but got off course. I did that because I believed other people knew more than I did and I wanted to learn what they had to teach. When I finally really opened my bible I was able to see what they taught me, and what I was teaching others was not written in the word of God. This is why I put up the blog.
As far as your friend, you can command this to leave her. She can command it to leave her. It will, if she is willing and if she repents. It is that simple. It may be necessary for your to separate from your friend. That will be a hard thing, but something to consider if she is unwilling to part from the demonic. Remember, you are not the Savior. It is your place to show her the truth and to pray for her. The Lord is mighty to save! However, if she continues she will grow worse and worse, and given what you have told me she may be looking at some very serious outcomes, maybe death.
Let me know what happens! And if I can help further, please don’t hesitate to ask. I have some writing on my blog that could be helpful for her if she is willing to face the truth. One of them was included in the article you responded to – Holy Spirit Manifestations which shows the difference in the work of the Holy Spirit and the other false spirit. There is an article at the top bar of my blog called Freedom from False Spirits of Revival. I didn’t write this but I have found it to be very helpful. Also, I have noticed some responses to you on the blog that you may want to have a look through. Believe it or not, someone else put up a comment about HB and her fire tunnels. Talk about timing! Also, read Ian’s comment with attention to the scriptures out of I Corinthians. See, people already have come to help! This is the church of Jesus Christ in action!
Be well and may our Lord give you strength for what is ahead. 🙂
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Re: love and kindness. Do you know any Mormans? I know a couple and they are the kindest, most friendly, giving people I know. Not saved, though. Sometimes we mistake those qualities for “love” – real love is always based in truth. It is active. It is more concerned with what is good for the person than what makes them happy or comfortable. That’s why we can say that God always works all things for our good – He is more concerned that we grow up in the wisdom and knowledge of Christ than with our personal happiness.
This is something I have struggled with, and thought I’d just mention.
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Susu, it’s a good mention. 🙂 If we have true love as we are told we will be concerned for each other’s lives and spiritual condition. Speaking the truth in love, not covering over the sin that leads to destruction!!
– He is more concerned that we grow up in the wisdom and knowledge of Christ than with our personal happiness. Amen!!!
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My pastor asked us [rhetorically]
What’s saved mean?
“Saved from what?…No one has ever come back to tell us whether or not they were saved, [or not]”.
He also implored us to look and see where this language “saved” derived from.
I, personally, do not go around calling anyone ‘saved, or unsaved’… and I def don’t tell anyone they’re going to hell. That would be to do something even Jesus didn’t do.
Our salvation isn’t tied up in our actions,denominations, etc.. its tied up in our relationship.
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A truth that set me free from trying to work out what is of the Spirit, and what is not, who is truly saved and who is not, was when i realized that no where in the NT are we told to specifically try and discern whether professing Christians are saved or not, rather, there are certain criteria laid out concerning fruit, and if it’s bad fruit we are to disassociate from them, but to still pray for them.
So, simply separate from what is unGodly. I’m saying that this is our responsibility and it is a simple responsibility. To try and discern everything is impossible.
E.g. If someone asks me is Todd Bentley saved? The correct answer is that first we are to separate from such, and to pray for them, rather than thinking that we need to go further than that and make categorical judgments about their salvation.
1Co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1Co 5:10 Yet not entirely with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must you needs go out of the world.
1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no not to eat.
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Th 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
2Th 3:15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
I spose what i’m saying, is that when it comes down to “discerning a true work of the Spirit” we are simply to separate from people who don’t have Christian character, regardless of their doctrine. And of course, if their doctrine denies Christ we are to separate from them.
It freed me bcos i no longer try and work out people’s spiritual status, i just separate and pray for them if they don’t have character.
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Oh, i should add that what i’m saying is not against what Bob DeWaay is teaching. What i’m saying, is that when we look objectively at the NT directives for these matters it’s a lot simpler than people have made it out to be in these days.
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You know, I think it has become so hard because the teaching has not been there. We have lost the how to’s!
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Hi Ian. It’s a matter of fruit. If we look closely and listen closely we can tell if someone is actually saved, walking with the Lord, about His true business.
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OH !!! YOU said that already! duh!
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No worries! What i posted is not very clear, sorry. Somehow what i’m trying to say just isn’t happening.
I’ll give an example: Like, years ago i would ponder about someone like Kenneth Copeland : is he saved? was he ever saved? ….. then i realized that the NT doesn’t tell us to try and figure that out, rather, if someone is named as a brother, but doesn’t heed the Apostles NT commands, we are to separate from them. That’s all. And if they repent, receive them.
And it’s clear from the NT that we are to separate even from saved people if they don’t obey the commands of God. “Admonish him as a brother”.
No where in the NT are we called to go FURTHER than those simple instructions, like to publish that so and so is of the devil etc..
Granted, this is a slightly different subject to what Bob DeWaay is teaching on.
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No where in the NT are we called to go FURTHER than those simple instructions, like to publish that so and so is of the devil, etc.
What do you mean? This is what I do and I believe we are told to expose the false teachers, prophets, etc. These modern day apostles, revivalists, and prophets come in the name of the Lord and are accepted for such. Their message and the “anointing” they carry is no where near that of the Lord’s. It is dangerous, deceptive, and demonic. I believe we are told to expose them for what they truly are. Did I misunderstand?
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Hi sister,
I don’t believe there is anything difficult to understand about my statement not to go further than the simple instructions in the NT concerning this matter.
That would be our goal, right? To reference everything the NT has to say on it and do likewise. That our thinking would be shaped by God’s Word.
OK, i’m not getting into judging WHO is going further than the NT on this, don’t really want to go there right now.
Simply put, there are boundaries as to what we are to judge and it’s sin to go beyond the boundary of judging righteous judgment. Jesus said, Judge not, then He said, Judge righteous judgment. So, there is something that only God can judge, and there are things which we are to judge. We judge actions, God decides if someone is saved or not. We’re talking about professing saved by grace believers here, not people who deny who Jesus is. If they deny the gospel then it’s obvious they’re not saved. I’m talking about people who have a testimony of grace, believe the fundamental evangelical doctrines, and yet are doing stupid and foolish things.
E.g. It’s a very serious matter to call a work of the Holy Spirit a work of the devil, or a saved brother or sister as unsaved and of the devil.
The Bakers have been mentioned here: OK, what is their false teaching, in one or two sentences? I think they are very foolish but i’m not aware of any heresies they’ve taught. So, how do we judge them then if we can’t fault their teaching? By “how” do we judge them, i mean, specifically, if they visited your home, what would you say to them? Exactly what type of judgment would you exercise on them?
Is that OK? I hope you don’t feel i’m being contentious.
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The wisdom God intended for us when we judge actions and teachings and not heart motives, is that it keeps the door open for repentance and restoration.
Again, i’m NOT talking about those who preach a false gospel of salvation.
E.g. For people like the Bakers, if a discernment person comes along and tells them they are servants of the devil and possessed by demons, then they’re not likely to take that person seriously and not likely to be helped. They MAY take a person seriously who judges what errors they are into, but doesn’t judge their heart motives.
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Just read on Ingrid Schleuter’s blog that a new study reveals that around half of the ‘clergy’ in the US are addicted to pornography.
Surely many of these ‘pastors’ are sound evangelicals with sound doctrine and run discernment ministries.
…………………..
I’ve had many emails from anonymous people over the years saying that i’m of the devil and that they can prove i teach false doctrine. Doesn’t bother me at all.
But they are totally convinced that they are exercising Biblical discernment. And when i was street preaching in Oz a fair percentage of the discernment people i met were actually in a psychotic state.
What a mess it is today!
Off topic, i know.
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When someone puts out a false teaching we can judge it. I don’t know what their heart is about except for the fact that if they continue to preach this false stuff it can’t be about the Lord. They proclaim more of what they do, their ministry, their anointing, etc. much more than they do Jesus Christ. This is a point made by the teaching clip here on this article. I believe the things that go on in these meetings from personal experience is more than just foolishness. It isn’t as simple as telling me not to eat meat or a debate about silly things. There is a spirit at work here. It is very possible that Heidi was once walking with Jesus and she got off track. I know she is involved with Randy Clark for one. I’ve heard much of her teaching on line and it some biblical some not. But what goes on in her meetings is very strange and you will not find that in bible based teaching churches. But this article is not about Heidi, it’s about discernment.
I am only learning – I have not been trained and have spent most of my Christian walk listening to false teaching. I know there is a very serious danger and that is why I speak against it. If these – or anyone – has a heart for Jesus I am not seeing it in them in their teachings, meetings or behavior. So we are talking about people who claim they follow Jesus but really do not.
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Ian you are bringing up a question I have had for awhile and I’d like to hear people’s thoughts… I agree that we cannot sit around and ponder if someone is saved. I really think that is out of my realm of duty. Only God truly knows if someone professing Christ is of the kind He ‘does not know.’ I don’t go there.
However, when looking at some of the charismania meetings and leaders and manifestations things get frustrating for me. I find that talking to my friends about fruit is, well, fruitless. (Sorry)
Ok, let’s take Heidi Baker for example. We talk about fruit, but if I bring that up to my friends who look up to her (“she’s SOOOO AWESOME!!!”), they will tell me about her ministry to orphans and works of healings. Are these not good fruit? Does this not bring glory to God? She must, therefore, be a woman of God.
The same even goes for Crowder and Dunn who go on ministry trips to poor areas and minister to widows and orphans. “How much more scriptural can we get than that?” – That’s what my friends would say to me if I question what is going on in their meetings. It’s like I cannot get past that. Anyone have a way to deal with this???? It seems terrible to suggest that their ministry to orphans is not of God. I am loath to say it.
Do you get what I am asking? I agree with you, Ian, re separating ourselves from those who do not live godly when no one is looking, but there is something extra difficult about these situations with international “ministers” who really, none of us know about their private lives. We cannot really attest to the kind of fruit that really does reveal what a person is following, cuz none of know these people in that way. It isn’t really a matter of separating myself from them like it would be with somebody I really know and cross paths with.
Ok, so we are back to judging teaching I guess. I don’t see any of my friends really taking the time to do this – or they don’t know how. I am just now learning how. How do you folks approach friends and family who follow these leaders of false revival? I almost feel like it is pointless to address the manifestations/fire tunnels/drunkenness because my friends SEE nothing wrong or off in this stuff. And I can totally understand that, I would be in their shoes if I had stayed under the teaching I was under only a few short years ago.
Sorry I am rambling. My mind goes off in multiple directions on this topic, and I am keenly aware of how I bought some of this stuff hook, line and sinker not so long ago. I want to be very wise in helping my friends see the truth. I don’t want to ruin a chance to speak something they can listen to that will help them run to the word, run to the Lord and really, really, ask for the truth.
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Ruthsongs – you bring up the SAME thoughts I have about using the fruit as a guide to discernment when some questionable characters do such noble acts. Guys like Todd Bentley are obvious – people like Heidi Baker, not so clear. Don’t you wish it was like the old western cowboy movies, where the bad guys wore grungy black hats and the good guys were clean shaven with white hats?
A couple of points, which I hope someone else can expand upon –
1. Like it was mentioned earlier, a Mormon believer can do noble works too, but he is pointing others to a false Jesus who he believes to be a spiritual brother of Satan.
2. An atheist (or Muslim, or Hindu, or Buddhist) can do noble works, but unless he is doing it glorify the true God and acknowledge Him, all his works are worthless
3.So I guess you can ask, are Heidi and Crowder pointing and leading others to a true Jesus, or to a “Jesus” they have made up as an idol in their owns mind (false god). I don’t follow them enough to say for sure what their beliefs are, but if they are associated with Bethel, then it is likely they worship a “happy” god who is all love, does not judge, always heals, never allows sickness, wants to always bless us, is more concerned with our happiness than with our holiness, and is waiting for all of us to become super apostles and subdue the earth so He can return again.
Unfortunately, in my conversations with “Bakerites” these arguments are still ignored. I can even point out in black and white sections in Bethel-related books that totally mangle scripture, but their minds are closed.
I guess it is like evangelism – you can hit people between the eyes with truth, but their hearts just won’t accept it until God does the work. So I keep praying.
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ahah! Our thoughts on this are very closely related! 🙂
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First of all we have to question the validity of their testimonies in what really goes on in these far away places. They often (and have for decades) make claims of thousands healed, saved, delivered, etc. So, why do we – the little people – 🙂 see this in our own countries, families, etc. They will say it is because we lack faith, lack the power, anointing, etc. paving the way for us to follow after them, buy their resources and again, fall for the dreaded impartation. They claim they can lay hands on us and give us the power, the gift, the ability to do what they do. But why do we need them? The answer to that is that we do not.
Many can do good works. Even if they do clothe, feed and baptize in the name of Jesus. Are they really one of His? Jesus rebuked that even the sinners took care of the poor. Look at all the government programs. Do they do this in the name of the Lord? No. But they do help others. What better way to add to the confusion, but to bury the false teaching under good works!
I think the bottom line is in their teaching. But again, why are we following after a person, a ministry and not Jesus Christ? Each of us has a “ministry” in our own lives, being saved, sanctified, led of the Holy Spirit. These false teachers have convinced others that we need them to be effective. That is a lie. And because we listened we have become entangled in the deception that continues to make us doubt the truth.
On a personal note, and I wrote about this in – a trip in Charismania – i think. When I realized the work of the healing rooms was not biblical, when I realized these manifestations were not of the Holy Spirit I resigned from both ministries I was involved in and left the church I attended. I then began a work of research and wrote out a document exposing the lies behind those teachings and sent it out to a great many people, firstly to the healing room team. (This is the basis of the very first articles I put up and can be found under Refuting IAHR if anyone is interested.) I took personal responsibility and asked them for forgiveness in teaching false things, imparting false things and operating under the false prophetic. I made it personal because I wanted them to understand where I was coming from. I did not blame anyone but took responsibility for being deceived. I showed them biblically where the teaching was off, just as I continue to do here on the blog. I got very little response from anyone! And as far as I know no one has left the deception.
I am saying all of this ruth because you asked –how??? All we can do it point them to the truth and pray for them. I know people who I had strong relationships with that no longer talk to me. You’ve seen some of the opposition that gets said to me here just as it gets said to many other bloggers and those who speak out about these false teachers. Jesus was rejected, wasn’t He, by those He came to save! We are told in the word to expect the same treatment.
There is a deep blindness, a need to preserve what they consider to be of God. It is rooted in pride and stubbornness. 1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world – the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life – is not of the Father but is of the world. Someone said to me when I began to question and to wonder- you must have a love of the truth – and that hit me. That is the bottom line and what the life of a Christian is all about. Having a love for God and for his truth no matter the cost, not concerning ourselves with the thoughts of others. Not running after “what they have” or coveting the power or effectiveness of their ministry.
We run after Christ – who like Peter in Luke 6:68 – But Simon Peter answered Him “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
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You know, I think I’m just looking for the one stupendous, inarguable, undeniable, crystal clear thing I can say that will snap my friends out of it. The “thing” that will ‘snatch them out of the fire.’ But my own experience has been much more like connecting the dots. Tracing fruits to stems to limbs to trunks to roots. A slow opening of the eyes. (Heavy sigh.)
I feel such a sense of urgency in all this. I want my friends out, out, out!! I want to yell “run away!” It’s no longer a matter of this little teaching being off, or that little incident being questionable. It’s so in-your-face crazy now. (I’m talking the kinds of teachings coming down the pike in the churches I know.)
Can you feel my frustration oozing through the monitor?
Ok, well (deep breath) I do believe with all my heart the ‘one thing’ is the Lord Himself. I will use that sense of urgency to pray for a love of the truth, and to combat the lies with the truth. The Lord knows exactly how to speak to the ones who are seeking the truth.
I’m thinking it wouldn’t hurt to pray for patience either. lol
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Re: “You know, I think I’m just looking for the one stupendous, inarguable, undeniable, crystal clear thing I can say that will snap my friends out of it. The “thing” that will ’snatch them out of the fire.’”
Who knows, Ruth, our LORD may speak just one word thru you that stops them in their tracks. It does happen. What He speaks, speak.
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True. He most certainly can.
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ruthsongs,
Can you feel my frustration oozing through the monitor? My sister, I feel lots of things oozing thru from this article. I’m not sure why…maybe…just maybe some fallen created being doesn’t like the truth being put out there….
It’s so in-your-face crazy now. (I’m talking the kinds of teachings coming down the pike in the churches I know.) YEP! I so know and I agree!
I get ya in this comment. 🙂
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I want to add that Jesus did not make a ministry of the poor. He fed those who followed them, having no food of their own, and tired from the trip He had compassion on them. He said we will always have the poor with us. So just because someone sets up an impressive ministry (lust of the eyes for those who ARE impressed) does not mean it is truly the work of God.
Remember, the first message is the cross – SALVATION. Those who lead these meetings are more and more leaving that out, on to other things. So when we ask if they have come in His name, if they preach Jesus, is it continuous, do their words and actions reflect Him? Who or what do they bring the most attention to? Do their listeners repent or do they covet, wanting the same wild experiences? Do they seek Jesus or another experience?
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After reading Kay’s post, here is a little clarification of what I am struggling with. Ok, if there are true and counterfeit manifestations and gifts, we do need to be able to discern which is which, right? But in my experiences and those of my charismatic friends, it’s almost like there is a continuum from true to false. I know there isn’t ACTUALLY a continuum, but when observing this stuff it LOOKS like a continuum. And I think that is why so many are afraid to say “that aint’ the Holy Spirit” When I see Stacy Campbell, I’m thinking it ain’t, but I understand why it is hard for people to do that. They are afraid of saying it isn’t when in their mind, it could be, because they have seen other people who they know live Godly, manifest in a less dramatic way.
Maybe I just made the hole of my muddy writing deeper.
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They are afraid to say what it truly is because they do not know the difference, having not been taught. This is the bottom line in WHY we all go through this confusion in not being able to sort it out. Like I said in the article, these come in the name of the Lord and are famed by others that they do. But – they do not. This is why we are warned of destructive heresies CREEPING in…
S Campbell – why would a God who loves her cause her head to do that?? This is not kindness, gentleness, self control – fruits of the Holy Spirit. Besides, what comes out of her mouth is mumbo jumbo, not Godly.
Did Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit manifest????
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I feel ruth. I will say that my teacher, teaches against this ‘slain in the spirit, and drunk in the spirit crap…my friend does not ‘hear’ that. If my teacher is doing his job, I wonder if I’m allowed to just move out of the way. lol.
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Did Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit manifest????
Yes, our plumbline. How did the One with the Spirit without measure live, act, speak?
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Just that little thought puts all the manifesting questions into the right perspective. We can learn so much from the bible if we would read it, huh?
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Last comment, tehehehe…but I wanted to post the sideline convo:
—–
A few things stuck out to me:
“Jesus loved but He didn’t put up with liars and false teachers.” —
But he put up with the lowliest of the low…the prostitutes and tax collectors. I wondered what was the difference? The prostitutes and tax collectors knew what they were doing, and the whole world reminded them… the false teachers and liars [perhaps knew] but no one called them out. Great point.
“Do not judge” is not applicable in a situation such as this” —
I’ve learned over the past few months that there is a fine line between judging and discernment. That line is humility. I’ve tried to remain as humble as I can [in spite of my flesh] in this situation… b/c at times, I just haven’t ‘known’ what was going on. And I didn’t want to join the bandwagon of the churchy folks who call everything that looks ‘different’ a demon.
“She is hearing from a familiar spirit(s)–”
Is this biblical? What does this mean? I’ve tried to find info on this, but to no avail. [Acts 16 speaks more to divination]
“Kundalini or serpent power”
I read about this a few months ago, again…biblical support? When I first found about the kundalini, I thought “wow, when Jesus taught [or anyone in the bible for that manner] you never heard of his head spinning out of its socket, him convulsing, shaking. Just yesterday, I overheard her telling a friend that she was ‘so full of the spirit’ as she laid back in the pew with a look of pure ecstasy. It was kinda creepy, lol.
“She is not seeking after God, but after this imposter who has come in His name.”
I honestly think she SINCERELY desires a close and intimate relationship with God. It is all she can speak about. She’s even got rid of her ‘secular’ friends because they ‘just don’t have anything in common anymore”. However, I think her desires are now more towards the mystical encounters, and living in spiritual awe? If that makes sense. That’s really no different than most believers who want the things of God [experiences, encounters, or even material stuff] more than they want God.
“When the power in my hands which felt like electrical current did not heal; when people were not being saved or delivered in the true biblical sense I began to ask God why.”
OH MY!! I’ve experienced this electrical current too, but she and I differed on the meaning b/c she experiences it also. I’ve thought it was demonic, b/c when I’ve felt it the strongest, it was during a deliverance session.
“As far as your friend, you can command this to leave her.”
Someone has tried this, and it did not work.
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To clarify to all, the statements in quotes are from my e-mail to Kay.
I believe if we listen to the audio, and Kay, if you read the articles as well as some other here – just dig – you will find more clarity. I’ve already written so much on these things and I would think of my blog as a kind of reference. But I do believe the work I have done in research will hold up to help give you the answers you need.
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I have to ask – did anyone listen to this audio clip?
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(listening to audio)
Ok, I just deleted a giant treatise on the early church (Marcions, Ebonites, and Gnostics) and why “Doctrine” was not meant as substitute for “confessing Jesus.”
I don’t know which is worse for me, a firetunnel or a sermon by a Calvinist (reformed or not reformed) 🙂
With that said, this is a great discussion. We are positioned around several choices here. Do we assign heresy, demons, sinful behavior, or childishness?
Do we expel or correct? Tough, especially for those of us that have close ties to people involved.
My two cents (and not the 5 dollar thesis):
1. Kenosis is heresy. Well 95% sure it’s heresy and 5% still lingers that it’s just bad theology. I think that several (not all) of “charismania” leadership operate in the theology that a. Jesus was 100% man (removed his diety) and b. He couldn’t operate in “miracles” until he received the Holy Spirit (in full measure). This “doctrine” gives credence for leadership to suggest we have “magic powers” just like Jesus and we have to {fill in the blank}. “little gods, etc.” However, I would make the argument that the leadership is bound to judgement on this. 99.9% of the “regular folk” don’t get this, care about it, or understand it. They see the Trinity in it’s proper respect and operate in within “salvation.” But Kenosis sells “how to” books and sells out conferences etc. Even John Wimber wouldn’t go as far these guys. He said basically he MUST assign that Jesus was man and God at the same time (big reason he booted Kansas).
2. Various “Kingdom/Dominion” theologies/heresies. They suggest that we “are called” to bring heaven to earth or on earth as it is in heaven. This morphs into heresy when we abandon the will of our Father. The will of the Father was how Jesus rolled, it should be good enough for us. When we can use this theology as a skill set to become “little gods” it becomes heresy. But apply my thoughts on the other 99.9% of us here as well.
Correct or Expulsion. Very hard and difficult choice. Fruits of the spirit, rather than manifestations of the spirit, I think is a good first check for each of us.
On the demonic idea: Yikes, I have a hard time with this one and out of respect for MK, I will only offer that our discernment of these “actions” must be individual and contextual. To apply to all, or a group, is dangerous judgement. Tough.
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P, great comments!!!
I can appreciate your position on the personal ties end of this – completely.
I know we disagree on the demonic involvement. Every one has to make up their own mind. Will they stay, go, speak up AND they have to determine how deeply it affects them and their relationship with the Lord. There are no pat answers. This is why we need to pray about these situations and for direction in our own lives and for others, the deceived, and the not so deceived.
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Wow Plontius…that was on point. I have a quiet confession that calvinsts bore me to pieces (whoops).
“With that said, this is a great discussion. We are positioned around several choices here. Do we assign heresy, demons, sinful behavior, or childishness?”–WHAT IF ITS ALL of these things mixed into a big ole ball of messiness.
“Do we expel or correct? Tough, especially for those of us that have close ties to people involved.” — Perhaps, we pray and allow God to lead that.
Yes MK, I’ve listened to a bit of the audio. I didn’t agree w/ all of the doctrinal positions (of course).
Great discussion.
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Kay, some of my readers are Calvanists.
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I read this article on demons a while back and thought it was interesting – particularly the emphasis on the lying, deceptive being which is Satan. “If his mouth is moving, he’s lying” It hadn’t occurred to me that one of a demon’s best strategies is to convince the church that “it’s” works are the works of God.
http://www.kurthutchison.com/demons.html
(My apologies to Kay and Plotinus, as it was written by a Calvinist. ;o)
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Hi M’Kayla, I didn’t listen to the audio, bcos i’m on dial up i normally only download small files, even then it takes a long time at 2 or 3 kbps.
But i wanted to say that your points re: discernment, are spot on, and sorry for my off topic postings, which are another subject.
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Hi. I didn’t realize you are on dial up. I can understand!
Thanks for clarifying the other comments. 🙂 I do appreciate it.
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Helene, thanks for your comment and your interest!
I received the same e-mail but decided not to post it because I am working on an article regarding the same topic. I’ve been looking at this and researching for some time now, and know other bloggers who’ve done quite a bit of work. So, it is of interest and a work in progress.
Thanks!
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Pingback: How to Discern – updated « m'kayla's korner
I added the scriptures in the text from the audio which were provided by norcal. I know people have asked me about this very thing – how do we discern?? Well, the teaching from Bob DeWaay gives us some great insight into that very thing. I hope you are blessed from his work! As we see here, discernment is not so much a gift as it is knowing the word and how God operates. So this information has also been helpful in removing the “mystical” aspect of discernment and shows us that we can all discern when need be.
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Well, just to update everyone. I tried to have the convo about this stuff with my friend Tiana. She wouldn’t really hear me, and even after presenting proof–I was met with the refrain of ‘I’m arrogrant and judgmental’.
For anyone on here who’s trying to bring your friend(s) or family to the light about this stuff…please continue to press on. The rejection they may throw your way is well worth the potential deliverance from this stuff.
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