Pondering Revelation 17:9

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Ok. So I’m reading Revelation 17 and when I came on verse 9 I was struck with a strange connection in the wording, wondering if there is indeed a connection to have a closer look at. See what you think here –

Rev. 17:9 Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.

Seven mountains.

Remember now, Chuck Pierce, C Peter Wagner, Lance Wallnau, Bill Johnson, Cal Pierce, Cindy Jacobs, Dutch Sheets and gads more support this idea via thier claim of  a prophetic word of the seven mountains of influence in which “believers” are to take over society using their “god-given” gifts in these seven areas – Government, Business, Education, Media, Family, Religion, Entertainment. Guess they didn’t read that part in the bible when Jesus stated His kingdom is NOT of this world, huh? But then again, these people of the NAR who are false prophets and false teachers don’t really read the bible, do they? But they sure can coax a crowd to their gatherings. Tickling messages.

I’ve often wondered what will happen when those of us who oppose these false teachers, clinging to the word of God for our truth rather than their bizarre claims of knowledge and supernatural experiences. I think it is worth taking some time to consider that those of the NAR who claim all these crazy things will indeed be the ones to persecute those of the true faith. Heaven help them -really- because the end result of them will be worse than anything they can conjure toward us.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.”

So could it be that the “seven mountains of influence” delusion was actually foretold in Revelation 17:9?

93 thoughts on “Pondering Revelation 17:9”

  1. That is intersting. I suppose it could be the seven mountains, however, these people just are not that great for something so big. Are they apostates? Yes. They are also FLAKES of the biggest kind. Who can possibly take them serious in the days to come? I know many will but I can’t but help believe many will have their eyes opened to these fakes and flakes when the doo doo hits the fan. They will not be sending them all their money at that point.

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    • This false word has spread like wildfire thru the NAR. They all support and believe it as a true “mandate” from God. I think they just might be that great. Not because of who they are of course, but because of the purpose of the the delusion – to draw people from the truth, and “who’s” really behind it.

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  4. I have pondered the 7 mountain takeover in regards to this scripture as well. Time will tell – also, when you look at the networking going on and the relationships being formed throughout and across these spheres, I wouldn’t be surprised if they were able to pull it off.

    Back in the early 90’s, when my eyes were opened, and I left all of these false teachings behind, I never thought these men and their movement would actually grow and develop such a huge following. How wrong I was. While it might seem unlikely that they could dominate according to their current plans, I wouldn’t be surprised.

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  5. Recently I was struck by Rev. 12, where it mentions a river meant to overtake the saints:

    Rev. 12: 15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

    The movement birthed at Toronto is often referred to as the River.

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  6. Hello M’Kayla,

    I too hope that those ensnared under the falsehoods within the NAR and TBN camps will return to their first love. The chief weapon to help them escape is the Word of God, and the verse your cited hopefully will rescue someone today. And let’s pray for that…That someone will come across this verse, and there eyes will be opened to the enumerated heresies and flee.

    In Him,
    Ron
    Duluth MN

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  7. You know MK 34 years ago I remember sitting in the living room having my morning devotions. I remember reading in Tim. and coming across tickling ears and wonder about it. What would it be like. I would read hot and cold and wonder about that and who would be the falling away. I know back then I had a hard time to visualize it all. Man, it sure has come alive. One verse has stuck with me all these years. 1 Timothy 2-l5 Therefore,brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. It has never left me. And when I hear of all of these changes that are taking place. My mind always falls on this verse. Yes, no matter what changes we must always remember Jesus the same to-day yesterday and forever.

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  9. Hey Mkayla – This whole 7 mountains thing is crazy! It seems like everyone is hearing this/writing about this and ready to jump in feet first. So scary.
    I was on Amazon looking for some books and stumbled across an author by the name of Johnny Enlow. Apparently, he’s a Pastor somewhere. Haven’t had a chance to check it out. He’s written several books but the two that caught my eye were: The Seven Mountain Prophecy and The Seven Mountain Mandate. I looked at some of the reviews for the first book (the second has no reviews yet). But at this point I am crying out “Will someone please look up the definition of mandate and then show me this mandate in the Bible.
    Here are a couple of excerpts or reviews for the Prophecy book.
    “In the words of the Apostle Paul, Enlow calls on the reader to “burn with zeal” in a pursuit of prophecy. Enlow prophesies a coming spiritual tsunami that will eradicate status quo and will overhaul and transform spiritual thinking and behavior. It will bring God’s rule and reign to places formerly subject to evil powers.”
    The phrase here “eradicate status quo and overhaul and transform spiritual thinking and behavior” sent a chill down my spine in connection with your post. Are people really reading their Bibles or just listening to what man throws out there?
    The second review I took an excerpt from follows:
    “Do you want to know your calling? This book reveals the seven major aspects of society in a way that helps you understand the ‘mountain’ to which you are called. It will motivate you on a personal level to lead an exciting and meaningful Christian life. On a macro level it provides incredible insights as to how we are to fulfill the mission of the church during these end days. For those who find some points to nitpick I would encourage you to stay with the plot and focus on the major theme – that God is inviting us to stop wandering around in the wilderness and to enter the promised land, to ‘take’ the seven nations (seven sectors of society) so that His authority and influence can flow through those institutions top down versus bottom up. This not only seems plausible from the standpoint of biblical interpretation, but logical from the standpoint of making our efforts to reach the unchurched more effective.”
    The reviewer says it will motivate you on a personal level to lead an exciting and meaningful Christian life. John 5:40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
    To me the key phrase in this last excerpt is “stay with the PLOT”. That is in fact what it is. A plot.
    Guess they didn’t read that part in the bible when Jesus stated His kingdom is NOT of this world, huh?
    Well said. (Sorry this is so long)

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    • HI, yes, these statements and claims are very typical of charismania and the false prophetic in which everything has a meaning or a reason for being. They teach that each person has a specific destiny and even those who practice the occult – psychics, card readers, etc. have been gifted by God but just don’t know it yet. In other words, we all do the same thing. (This is very much supported by John Paul Jackson.)

      The seven mountains is a very big deal and as false as anything could be. I’m not sure what the exact wording to the actual mandate was, but I believe it originally came though Peter Wagner or Chuck Pierce – see the link for the visual. I could be wrong but they seem to be at the bottom of many wrong teachings spreading throughout the church for the last decade or so. I should have added to the article the links to Cindy Jacobs here on my blog because she is very much into this as well, whose tag line is about “societal transformation”. She is very militant in her “prophecies” and mannerisms and a little scary to listen to. She recently prophesied at Morningstar and we have seen an alliance take place of quite a few of this big named prophets and teachers that I wrote about last year. There is a definite coming together. So, just about any false prophet or false teacher is behind this “mandate” these days. On the other hand, its become a catalyst to make a few bucks!

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  10. I’ve heard one of the NAR crowd (forgot the name) actually quote the 7 mountains in Rev 17 as a justification for their plan, for they believe that if Babylon possesses the 7 mountains, then they should snatch it back from the devil.

    Clearly, the context of the 7 mountains in Rev 17 carries the meaning that they are something BAD, something you wouldn’t want to reclaim. The connotation suggests that 7 mountains speak of the false security and false power of this world. The Harlot thinks she can never fall bcos she sits on 7 mighty mountains. Similarly, anyone who thinks they can reclaim the 7 mountains is as equally deceived as the Harlot, and no doubt of the same spirit.

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  11. Seven Mountains
    August 11, 2010 by ian vincent

    And here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sits. Rev 17:9

    The mountains symbolize worldly power and the false security that such power engenders.

    Weird that a new movement in christendom seeks to reclaim the “seven mountains”.

    It means they also seek worldly power and a false security

    Seven Mountains

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  12. Hey m’kayla, I had never heard of the NAR’s seven mountains of influence, wow. I agree with you that if we are faced with the persecution associated with the seventieth week of Daniel, that yes, they will be the ones who will persecute us. Take a look at Matthew 24:9-13.

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  14. Pingback: Seven Mountains «

  15. God DOES want to reclaim lost people and snatch them back from the devil, for it is not His will that any should perish.

    BUT, He wants to save and redeem PEOPLE, NOT institutions. Not religions. Not “high places” (How silly. Remove the devil from the “high place” and after you leave he will come straight back; it’s his domain, for now)

    And Jesus redeems us OUT of this present wicked world. We remain in the world, but very much OUT : not a part of it.

    The 2 witnesses in Rev do speak of the relationship between the true church and the world. If we have a TRUE witness, then we are like the 2 witnesses.

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    • Exactly, its about people. So where’s the preaching/call for repentance? But that is dominionism that teaches Jesus will not come back – cannot come back -until his followers do these things and take the world for His kingdom. The strange thing is they don’t seem to realize with all their gatherings, public prayer and fasting meetings such as TheCall, no matter how often or how many come along nothing changes. Things are getting worse, not better.

      Good comment Ian. Thanks! 🙂

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  16. Mkayla, you asked about the connection of The Truth Project – here is a link that tells all.
    http://www.reclaim7mountains.com/pages.asp?pageid=74130
    (Developing a Biblical World View: The Truth Project,
    Marc Fey, Director of Community Impact Programs for Focus on the Family)
    Also remember, Dobson headed up that May Day 2010 Prayer along with the NAR
    http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/mayday-mayday-calling-god-save-america (Link has a list of the usual suspects…couldn’t find the original link, just found it at Right Wing Watch, not that I fully endorse them!)

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  17. Rest (un)assured: these guys DO know Scripture and quite purposely pervert it toward their own agenda. From the study I’ve done — with the help of many before me such as Constance Cumbey and others on the ‘net — I’m convinced that charismania is New Age theology (and, of course Latter Rain) albeit using “Christianese” lingo in order to deceive. This was foretold in various books penned by Alice A. Bailey who was being channelled by “Djwal Khul” — a “Tibetan Master,” a demonic entity — back in the 20s, 30s and 40s. This body of work is used as a guideline to further New Age agenda via Lucis Trust (formerly Lucifer Publishing):

    http://www.lucistrust.org/

    Contrary to this quote on their homepage:

    “The Lucis Trust is non-political and non-sectarian. It sponsors no special creed or dogma.”

    The DO have a political agenda (with heavy UN influence as a NGO) and they sponsor Luciferianism, panentheism and the belief that all paths lead to God.

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    • Yes, I’ve done some reading in that area over the last couple of years. Too bad those who follow Johnson, the NAR, the Word of Faith won’t do the same. Thanks for the info. 🙂

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  18. In attempting to ascertain false teaching keep in mind the following list of redefinitions from Phd Robert A Herrmann’s web page “A Modern Manifestation of Absolute Evil” for his paper called A Scientific Analysis of the Writings of Alice A. Bailey, and their Applications for treatment in “Master DK’s” [Djwhal Khul] (Bailey’s) deception.

    http://www.serve.com/herrmann/bailey.htm

    Here are a few:

    Light = Luciferian Enlightenment

    God = Satan

    stream forth = overshadow

    love = various forms of Scripturally defined evil or, generally hatred.

    Christ = Antichrist

    little wills of men = the claimed unintelligent, weak and inferior desires of individuals; especially those that follow conservative Judeo-Christian doctrine.

    purpose = to prepare for the appearance of the Antichrist

    Masters = demons or demon controlled individuals.

    race of men = “humanity” as ruled by Lucifer

    plan = complete domination in preparation for and after the appearance of the Antichrist.

    seal the door where evil dwells = violent, if necessary, eradication of those that follow Judaism, conservative Christianity, some liberal Christianity, and other similar orthodox religions. [note: this is so because of the “separativeness” of these religious views. Djwhal Khul calls this evil, and that it must be eradicated for the Hierarchy’s plans of the New Age-New World Religion to proceed. In multiple passages DK identifies the Jews and Christians as the spirit of separativeness, i.e., John 14:6, and Exodus 20:3]

    power = often hideous and actual destructive forces. ”

    I think you’ll find his site “enlightening.”

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    • I know that many false teachers and prophets of today sound more new age in their teachings than they do the truth. I do believe we are witnessing a movement in which biblical Christians are persecuted by those who follow false teachings. Many of us who so much as try to show friends or fellow ministry partners the error are regarded as unloving, unforgiving and judgmental. They are all about unity but don’t recoginize what they are uniting with.

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  19. As to the “woman” of Revelation 12, I hope you don’t mind; but, for the sake of brevity (so, I won’t have to retype/edit) I’d like to repost a comment I made in response to a Catholic’s claim that this “woman” is Mary and who assumed non-Catholic’s believe the “woman” is the Church:

    The “woman” of Revelation 12 is clearly Israel (not the Church) although, of course, Mary, as part of the Nation Israel was the one “about to give birth.” Let me illustrate:

    1A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman [Israel] clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. [v 1]

    This verbiage is from Jacob’s Dream of Genesis 37:9:

    9 Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

    Jacob was seeing 11 of the 12 Tribes; and, since he was part of 12th, he did not see himself.

    Continuing in Rev 12:2:

    2She [Israel] was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.

    This represents both Israel and Mary – the vehicle through which the Messiah would be born. Throughout the OT Israel was referred to as the LORD’s bride and as being in labor [Isaiah 66:7; Jer 4:31; Micah 4:9-10, 5:3]

    …The dragon stood in front of the woman [Israel/Mary] who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. [v 4b]

    This speaks again of the Nation Israel and, by extension, Mary.

    5She [Israel/Mary] gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. [v 5]

    Jesus Christ does not rule with an iron scepter until His 2nd coming. The last sentence speaks of Jesus Ascension to the right hand of the Father.

    6The woman [Israel] fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

    The whole of verses 1-5 are a historical time capsule with verse 6 placed in the future as the latter half of Daniel’s 70th week (still in future, of course).

    Then the woman is picked up again in verse 13:

    13When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman [Israel] who had given birth to the male child.

    The woman [Israel] was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. [v14]

    This “time, times and half a time” is the same is the 1260 days in verse 6 — 3.5 years.

    15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman [Israel] and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman [Israel] by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. [vv 15,16]

    While I’ve no idea what this imagery means, it remains clear this is still speaking of the Nation Israel.

    17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman [Israel] and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus. [v 17]

    Obviously, the latter part of the above refers to the church (made up of Gentiles and Jews) — “the rest of her offspring.”

    The dragon was not pursuing Mary but, rather the Nation Israel.

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    • Its very interesting book and most of us never get it all. But that is fine, we do see only in part! I wasn’t so much questioning the woman, but the 7 mountains. Some have wondered if it is not the deception over the earth. That could be wrong as well because what would the seven mountains stand for if not seven kingdoms…Well, I’m bouncing this in my head and clearly need to do more study. I do like the talk about it!

      Thanks for all of your input. I did take a good amount of time to read and will again, including the links! 🙂

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      • Sorry for the confusion. I was making a comment in reference to a comment by “agonyofvictory” who referenced the river in Rev 12 and that it was the dragon’s attempt to overtake the saints with it. In context, it actually refers to Israel; and, once the dragon realizes he cannot destroy the “woman” (Israel) with this river, THEN he goes after the saints: “those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.” It doesn’t say he will use this “river” against the saints, however.

        …what would the seven mountains stand for if not seven kingdoms…

        This is my understanding as well. It seems to be a direct reference to the beast of Rev 12:3 and 13:1 with its seven heads (kingdoms) and ten horns (power as in Daniel chapters 7, 8, 9,). Note, though, that the Rev 12:3 beast has “seven crowns on his [seven] heads;” whereas, the Rev 13:1 one has “ten crowns on his [ten] horns.” Crowns [Greek: diadema or diadems] apparently denote kings.

        I believe these extra three horns are from Daniel 8:8, “The goat became very great, but at the height of his power his large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns [four minus the one broken off = three) grew up toward the four winds of heaven.”

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    • umm . . . I don’t think it is so clear that it is the woman of Revelation is the nation Israel – I think it is the church system — those who profess to be God’s, wherever they are from, but in their hearts are playing the harlot. To say it is the nation doesn’t make sense to me.

      I think this because verses like:

      Galatians 3:7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.

      Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ

      Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

      It is clear that those of the promise are also called Israel, sons of Abraham. I think to read the scriptures and apply the symbolic word Israel to only the nation Israel isn’t building the word precept upon precept, line upon line. The Bible is full of layers.

      I realize this framework changes a lot — but the more I read the more it all fits. Something to consider and not so quickly denounce.

      Just some thoughts . .

      Rachel

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      • Rachel,

        It seems as though you are combining the two different women mentioned in Revelation. The “woman” in chapter 17 who “rides the beast” is the scarlet harlot — false religion; whereas, the “woman” in 12 is the Nation Israel as I’ve pointed out in different post above.

        The seven mountains beast is speaking of the dragon of 12 & 13 which is referenced in 17:3.

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  20. I need to correct my comment @ 9:16 above:

    …and the belief that all paths lead to God.

    That should be “all paths lead to God except Christianity and Judaism.” I can only guess why they put up with Islam since it’s dogmatically monotheistic. My best guess is it’s because of Islam’s hatred of Christians and Jews.

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  21. When I first heard about the NAR speak about the ‘seven mountains’ I thought about this verse straight away.

    I had to dismiss this as the seven mountains are the seven hills talked in Rome. Yes I am talking about the pope. If you examine the Roman Empire’s history, you’ll see this papal authority prophesied about. I never thought I’d believe it until I started seeing the prophecies.

    (BTW MKayla, you’ve been mentioned again on SP02, which is what made me come here. Love your work! Love you too!)

    SP of SP02

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  22. This is very interesting! I’ve always thought the woman to be the church system — so this could be. Thanks for sharing your insight!

    Rachel

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  23. Our dear brother Sean Scott has written this astute piece:

    Trying to save what God will destroy

    Trying to save what God will destroy

    ———————————————————-

    Seven Mountains

    I’ve known a guy for many years who is sort of a half-universalist. He is a teacher and theologian.
    He quotes:

    Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

    and..

    Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

    (and many other texts)

    And he uses these scriptures as a basis to believe that all the world will be influenced by Jesus, the whole society will gradually be transformed into a righteous one.

    I said to him, What is the point of the society becoming a “good society” if the people are still lost and go to hell? It’s like a cruel joke, that they can go to hell as “better people” ?

    ——————————————————————-
    See also:

    We must reform the seven mountains of our society and culture??

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    • Ian,

      This “half-universalist” guy sounds like an amillennialist — the belief that the Millennium (see Rev 20) is symbolical (not actually 1000 years) rather than literal and is occurring right now instead of the popular view that Jesus will return before the Millennium as consistent with the pre-trib rapture view (mid-trib or pre-wrath rapture view as well). To make the a-mil view fit, a great many sections of Scripture have to be ‘spiritualized’ instead of taking the more literal historical-grammatical view consistent with the pre-mil view.

      According to The Expositor’s Bible Commentary with the New International Version; Introductory Articles, Volume 1 by Frank E. Gaebelein et al, Amillennialism takes “…the heavenly position of the saints in Christ and the triumph over Satan through the word of Christ. [It] finds its primary support in the Scriptures that appear to portray the coming of Christ as bringing in the final state…”

      I think the following site does a decent job of delineating the three different views regarding the Millenium; but, I need to provide a caution as the main website is part of the heretical Worldwide Church of God. Nevertheless, I think this is the best comparison of the different views I’ve found. Just don’t go the wcg.org home page:

      http://www.wcg.org/lit/prophecy/3views.htm

      The Summary Chart at bottom (or see quick link over to side at top of page) does a good job of comparing and contrasting the three views.

      I should note also that Dominionism fits well with the Amillennial view. I should also point out that C. Peter Wagner’s view is not inconsistent with the New Age view of things.

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  24. Fair comment. Actually, this guy is not “amillennial” : he believes Jesus will return bodily and rule and reign 1000 years, but he believes that when Jesus returns that the church will have conquered the world (so to speak) for Him, and therefore His coming is like the icing on the cake.

    On those two texts: How many can accurately bring out the meaning? We know what they don’t mean, but what do they mean?

    Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

    and..

    Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

    http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/

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    • Perhaps he has adopted Bickle’s “Apostolic Pre-Millennialism” — whatever that IS exactly, or perhaps a variation of it. Otherwise, maybe he has his own brand of eschatology.

      As to the Ephesian verses, one must put these in proper context to get the full meaning. In verse 1:9 we see the “mystery” of God was purposed “in Christ;” so, the “fullness” is a reference to Romans 11:25 which will fulfill the Abrahamic Covenant as Gentiles and Jews alike will be saved. But, only IN CHRIST.

      The “fullness” in 4:10 speaks of salvation as well. To suggest that this passage speaks of universal salvation is adding to the text. Not to mention, this would contradict a number of passages such as Matthew 24:13, “but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.” Will all stand firm? No, as 24:11-12 says, “and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase in wickedness, the love of most will grow cold.”

      Perhaps he’s a partial preterist?

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      • OK, perhaps I shouldn’t do this at lunch…

        In the 3rd paragraph above it should read:

        The “fill all things” in Ephesians 4:10 is the same thing as “fullness” as above — the ultimate fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant.

        The “mystery” of verse 1:9 refers to salvation as it does in Romans 11:25 and other NT texts. And, further, I believe that the word “mystery” in Rev 10:7 is speaking of fulfilling the Abrahamic Covenant.

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  25. The 7 mountains are 7 empires where 5 have fallen(Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia & Greece) One is (Rome), and one is yet to be. Of course the seventh empire will produce the Anti-Christ who will become the eighth when he demands to be worshiped. The key point in this is that although some may think that another empire has already come in the past,the 7th empire has not yet risen.
    Paul and the writer of Hebrews went to great lengths to verify the prophecy of Jeremiah, Amos, Hosea, Isaiah and Ezekiel to demonstrate that not all Israel is true Israel. The Israel of God are those whom are sanctified by Jesus Christ. Therefore, Revelations 12 refers to the true believers of Jesus Christ living and serving God during that time when the wrath of the devil takes place.
    Not a good thought for many, but it is a matter of where the heart is: upon God or upon self. It is not pleasant to be blunt in this matter, but if one does not seriously study the latter day prophecies, then when the time does arrive, their hearts will not be ready to meet the challenge and could put themselves into a position to fall. It is time to awaken and recognize that the end time is not just about God’s punishment upon an evil world, but also a call for His children to witness the truth before those days end.

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    • Dave 2:

      I was largely in agreement with you until I got to your conclusion of:

      Therefore, Revelations 12 refers to the true believers of Jesus Christ living and serving God during that time when the wrath of the devil takes place.

      Revelation 12 encompasses different time periods. Please see my post on Aug 22 @ 9:32am. The woman cannot be ‘the true believes of Jesus Christ’ as the next verse clearly shows these to be the ‘offspring’ of the woman:

      17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman [Israel] and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus. [v 17]

      The woman here is the remnant Israel.

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      • I think there is an interesting connection in verse 14 in which the woman is taken to the wilderness. Matthew 24:16 Jesus told them there was a time coming that would be necessary for them to flee into the mountains. Later he speaks of a great tribulation that has never before been seen on earth.

        I believe that it is very possible and we should consider carefully that God has a specific plan for Israel. I’ve heard many people throw this out. But we have been “grafted in” and did not replace Israel, His chosen. So I consider the church is taken out from the earth early on. And those who call on the Lord for salvation during that trib period – “gentiles” and jew alike will be saved. I also think the 144,000 are Jewish and that they are the witnesses to Jesus Christ.

        I know many aren’t fond of “the rapture” and think those of us who believe in it are in a fantasy land and in need of escape. I don’t see it that way. Biblical history proves that God always removes his people before he deals with the people on the earth. Why would the future be any different? I’ve wrestled with this topic for a very long time but this is the conclusion I keep coming back to.

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        • M’Kayla,

          Our views are not mutually exclusive. I agree that there will be a Rapture and that it will take place before God pours out His wrath. The question is when is the wrath to be poured out? Quickly, as I don’t have the time to write it all out; but, I believe in a pre-wrath Rapture which I interpret to be before the bowls/vials are poured out. There will, however, be saints (believers) remaining in the Tribulation as Jesus says in Rev 16:15, “…Blessed is he who stays awake.”

          The 1260 days in Rev 12:6 and 12:14 (1260 days is 3.5 years as time, times and half a time) will be the 2nd half of Daniel’s 70th week. The first 1260 includes the two witnesses of Rev 11. In my view, the Antichrist is not ‘revealed’ until after the midpoint of Daniel’s 70th week (see Rev 13:5-8 as this is where I believe he’s revealed). Keep in mind that Jesus says

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  26. sorry, didn’t finish above…

    Jesus says, “This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints” which I believe is both at the beginning of the Great Trib (prewrath) and during the Great Trib.

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  27. …and, and important detail: I believe the last 7 years are not all ‘Great Tribulation’ as I see the 7 years as the tribulation and last part as the Great Tribulation.

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  29. Craig,

    Thank you for your comment. I pray that the Spirit of God will continue to work in your life. The essential ingredient of course is the concept of the nation of Israel to understand the meaning of this prophecy in Revelations 12. Romans 2: 14-29 specifically states that a Jew is not one outwardly but is circumcised in the heart. If a Jew or any one breaks the law their circumcision is of none effect and therefore so are the promises.
    The problem with prophecy teaching is the error in the belief that the modern House of Judah is the remnant of all 12 tribes. Unfortunately, this is not true because God promises to bring all 12 tribes back to His land when He returns. The House of Judah is only 2 of the 12 tribes which indicates that ten more have yet to return (Zechariah 12:7).
    Further, the Bible tells us in Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Amos and Hosea that the House of Israel was planted among the nations throughout the world. They will be gathered (Ezekiel 37) when Christ Jesus returns.
    God is not a racist and has no respect of blood, so I am not in favor of Anglo-Israelism or Replacement theology but understand that Galatians 3 means what it says and hope you will study Romans 4,6,9 & 11. The woman in Revelations 12 represents the fulfillment of the promised seed (Jesus Christ) through the seed of David (Judah) but the remnant of her seed are those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ, verses 11 & 17 of Revelations 12.
    Some have concluded that this remnant seed are the Jews that accept Jesus Christ during the tribulation period because the church will have been taken away prior to Daniel’s 70th week. But, this false doctrine can be easily refuted by the simple fact that the dead in Christ rise first, then we which remain shall be gathered with them in the sky to meet Jesus Christ at His return (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17).
    Since those whom are alive cannot prevent or go before those whom are dead, then one must consider that Revelations 19:11 through 20: 6 identifies the first resurrection as taking place after Jesus Christ has cast the anti-Christ and his false prophet into the lake of fire, which obviously occurs after tribulation (Matthew 24: 28-31).
    The whole basis upon which the pre-tribulation rapture theory as fact is dependent upon the acceptance that the modern nation of Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy. But there is more to this false assumption than the devil would like Christians to know; and that is that the devil desires to be worshiped (Isaiah 14:13).
    This is not a casual boast that the devil hopes to accomplish because 2 Thessalonians 2:4 states that he someday will sit upon the throne in Jerusalem. Jesus Christ also referred to this abomination in Matthew 24. Sadly, what many do not consider is that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 states that there will be a great falling away. One cannot fall away from something that they do not have. Therefore, a great number of Christians will be fooled in those days simply because they believed the lie that the man sitting on the throne in Jerusalem is their god.
    Further, the modern nation of Israel whether Orthodox or not will not accept any one as their Messiah or god unless that person is a direct bloodline descendant of their King David. When one considers Daniel 11:37: “Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all!” It should be considered that the text “God of his fathers” implies that he is a Jew. Other bible texts change the capitol G in the word God because it is known that the God of his fathers often refers in the Bible to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. To change the wording to the “gods of his fathers” as many modern texts have implies that the anti-Christ is not a Jew but of pagan origin.
    Ezekiel 21: 25-27 simply states that the profane and wicked prince of Israel is the one who is destroyed by the one whose right it is to wear the crown (Jesus Christ) But hiding the identity of the anti-Christ as a Jew works well for the devil, especially if one believes that the modern nation of Israel is a prophetic fulfillment.

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    • Dave,

      With all due respect I request you stop calling other’s eschatalogical viewpoints which differ from yours as ‘false doctrine.’ It will yield better responses and dialogue. I accept that there are different interpretations; but, I will not call someone else’s views ‘false doctrine.’ We can agree to disagree.

      I’m not unaware of your particular view. However, there are problems with any of the views I’ve seen regarding end times. For example, according to your view, what do you do with 1 thess 4:17 and 1 Cor 15:51 which speak of those who are not dead and will be resurrected after the dead? How can that be if the end has already taken place?

      you wrote:

      The problem with prophecy teaching is the error in the belief that the modern House of Judah is the remnant of all 12 tribes.

      I don’t understand where you get this as I’ve not stated or implied (that I’m aware) any such thing.

      So, who are ‘the rest of her offspring’ in Rev 12:17?

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    • OK, now I see this:

      The woman in Revelations 12 represents the fulfillment of the promised seed (Jesus Christ) through the seed of David (Judah) but the remnant of her seed are those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ, verses 11 & 17 of Revelations 12.

      Starting in Rev 12:1-2: this woman cannot be the promised seed as this is clearly Israel (12 tribes) as represented in Jacob’s dream. In verse 5 this woman gave birth to the promised seed. How can the seed be simultaneously the woman?

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    • Dave 2:

      What about Ezekiel 38:7-8?

      7 ” ‘Get ready; be prepared, you and all the hordes gathered about you, and take command of them. 8 After many days you will be called to arms. In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety.

      Does the bolded portion above not refer to the current nation of Israel?

      Has the Abrahamic Covenant been fulfilled?

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  30. Dave 2:

    The House of Judah is only 2 of the 12 tribes which indicates that ten more have yet to return (Zechariah 12:7).

    OK, NOW I see what you’re saying — the current nation of Israel is only the SOUTHERN kingdom and not the entire physical boundary as the original nation. So, in your view the current nation of Israel is only a partial fulfillment as it excludes the northern kingdom. I’m with you so far; however, my understanding is the complete restoration uniting both kingdoms does not occur until Jesus physically returns for the final battle. And, isn’t Jerusalem part of the northern kingdom of which the current Israel at least has a part?

    In Romans 11:25 it is clear the full remnant of Israel does not come in until the ‘fullness of the Gentiles.’ The question then is how much time is between the fulfilling of this event and the complete gathering of the remnant of Israel. Could this gap be the period in which the Rapture takes place?

    Matthew 24:13 clearly shows that its Judea (the southern kingdom) that must “flee to the mountains” after the ‘abomination of desolation.’ This would be in the 2nd part of Daniel’s 70th week. So, then it appears the southern kingdom does not get unified with the northern one till later. After this comes 24:31 in which it would appear the northern kingdom is added and they are unified.

    But, is 24:31 the same event as 1 Thess 4:16 and 1 Cor 15:51-52?

    Going back to Rev 12: clearly v 14 refers to the nation Israel whom the dragon is not able to defeat (they are protected ‘in the desert to a place prepared for her by God’ v 6); so, he goes off to make war with the ‘rest of her offspring’ in v 17 — the Gentiles and Jews who have accepted Jesus Christ (seed of Abraham).

    Q: Who are the ‘rest of the dead’ who are resurrected in Rev 20:5 and where do they come from?

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    • Everyone,

      Prophecy, the symbolism involved in this particular book as well as the correlation or harmony of other scripture is the place where many Christians disagree. If disagreement is done with respect that is fine. We must remember we still only know in part and we have differing views. I don’t know why that is exactly, why if we have the same teacher, the Holy Spririt why we can’t get it together and all get on the same page with this stuff.

      We should also keep in mind that we are not involved in a face to face conversation in which we can hear the sound of voices or see expressions. Very often things can be taken the wrong way because of this. But please, this is not a place of offense. It truly bothers me when that happens on my blog because I enjoy the conversations that go on. I’ve had many opportunities to learn and grow from others as they have from me. I will make every effort to see that it continues.

      In addition, this topic has gone way off from what it was originally. I let it go because I liked where it was headed. So, if this conversation is to continue, please keep these things in mind.

      On another note, if anyone has a copy or access to the original “prophecy” or “mandate” of the seven mountains from wherever it originated – Bill Bright, C Peter Wagner, etc. I would appreciate a link. While there may be NO biblical connection to that and this scripture I still can’t get it out of my head in wondering. Ya know?

      Thanks all. Let’s all take a moment to rejoice that Jesus is coming soon. That we can agree upon. Yay! 🙂

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      • Just a note that I finally located the original “prophecy” of the 7 mountains. It came thru 3 men in 1975 – Loren Cunningham (YWAM), Bill Bright and Francis Shaffer as claimed by Cunningham. Since Peter Wagner is so often referring to it, I thought it was his.

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        • M’Kayla,

          Would you identify the source? I’m curious. I did not know it went that far back.

          Interesting that two of these guys are heads of very prominent missionary ministries: Cunningham of YWAM and Bright of Campus Crusade for Christ.

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          • Hi. I didn’t know it went that far back either, but it is out of Cunningham’s mouth. I am still in the process of reading as it is very long. I am inclined to think, and I may be jumping ahead here, that Wagner put a different spin on the original. I guess it will be something we will have to look at and discuss. I’m working on that in an article. 🙂 Soon!

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  31. Craig,

    First, thank you for your admonishment and I humbly apologize to Mkayla or any one else who was offended by any comment I have made with respect to their beliefs. My comment was not directed with respect to Mkayla’s viewpoint of a pre-tribulation rapture since I was writing my views at the time hers and other comments were being made of which I had no knowledge.
    I simply was pointing out that the belief in the modern nation of Israel as a fulfillment of prophecy is usually tied as supporting scripture for those that teach a pre-tribulation rapture doctrine. But due to my ignorance of the other post, I did not intend to attack any one’s views but endeavored to explain by “scripture” why this doctrine is suspect and worthy of review.
    While I would agree that one should approach a subject with sensitivity and love I find it odd that providing scripture that may oppose one’s belief is considered an attack when the fruit of the text itself bears its own truth. I do also apologize for being rude, but I cannot apologize for what the text itself says, because any doctrine that contradicts scripture is in fact a false doctrine. Implications of truth or interpretation of text should never over rule direct Bible statements that are consistent with all texts.
    Otherwise the Bible itself is meaningless and open to the fantasy and imagination of men. And I sadly suspect that the Bible has become for many a book that can be interpreted rather than received as written (2 Peter 1:21) and as a result many options of truth can be fought over. But I didn’t visit this web site to pick a fight or to ridicule individuals.
    Second, another problem with discussing doctrines can be seen when direct scripture is tied to the individual presenting it. For some, no matter how badly a respected or highly placed individual mistreats text, his words are received as gospel by those whom enjoy his words. But if a reading of text is not welcome to the hearts of others, than that person is judged as a malcontent or troublemaker. Which indicates two very sad conditions that help to facilitate the war of words.
    Number one, many today do not respect the Bible itself. Curiously, we have a God Whom can speak the entire universe into existence, but is too weak to accurately provide His Word to His children so that all can understand. Somehow, our God needs an interpretor
    and who qualifies? I thought the Holy Spirit was sent among other things to teach us His Word. The Spirit of God created language at the Tower of Babel but needs a man to translate Greek to English and then again to English.
    Speaking of which, the linguists that translated the Greek texts for the modern Bible translations used source material from Alexandria that the Early church denounced as heresy, rather than just modernize English prose. As a result, texts were not just updated, their testimonies changed God’s message. That is why I mentioned Daniel 11:37.
    Further, Werstcott and Hort were not just simple bookworm linguists who provided an honest work to make it easier to understand God Word. These men practiced witchcraft while members of the Jews Society, the Apostles Club and other secret society venues.
    Number two, when we allow ourselves to question God’s Word, as Eve did in the garden, we lose respect for God Himself. He then becomes the subject of controversy since His Word needs interpretation and man’s help to set things in order. I’ve yet to meet the man whom can counsel God.
    1 Corinthians 15:51-51 is written: “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” Please note that verse 50 states that: “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption!” This is the purpose for the change, but verse 52 still lists the order by which the change occurs by stating that the dead are raised incorruptible and then those that are alive are changed. This does not contradict 1 Thessalonians which states: “Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them (those raised from the dead) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord!”
    Ezekiel 37: 11-28 further confirms this by stating that: “Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken [it], and performed [it], saith the LORD. The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and [for] all the house of Israel his companions: And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which [is] in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, [even] with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. And David my servant [shall be] king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, [even] they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David [shall be] their prince for ever. Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore!”
    Again, the text is consistent since the prophecy begins by the opening of the graves which is no different than I Thessalonians 4 or 1 Corinthians 15 and also confirms what is promised in Revelations 20:6-7. Please consider also that Ezekiel 37: 21 says that God will take the children of Israel from among the heathen whither they be gone after He has opened the graves. Further, that this gathering culminates with His cleansed people living and ruling with Jesus Christ just as Revelations 20:7 indicates.
    In addition since I did a poor job of explaining the significance of the woman in Revelations 12, I did not make it clear that the women represents the whole of Israel, all 12 tribes and that when she produced the man child (Jesus Christ) her seed are those that have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Therefore, one cannot be a witness of Jesus Christ unless one belongs to Him. Being a Jew does not qualify one to be a witness unless they have Christ. Ephesians 2:12-22 makewes it clear that all are a part of the commonwealth of Israel through Jesus Christ. Therefore, all of His are responsible for spreading the gospel.
    Finally, Ezekiel 38: 8 states: “After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land [that is] brought back from the sword, [and is] gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them!” Please consider that the prophecy says that Gog will come into the LAND, which becomes the subject, the land itself. Genesis 15:18 says that the land promised to Abraham lies between the Nile and the Euphrates Rivers. This would include part of Lebanon, part of Syria, part of Egypt, all of the land in Palestine and Jordan. Modern Israel does not at this point in time possess the land promised to Abraham. Further, this land is brought back from the sword and is gathered out of many people. Since the subject is the land this would indicate that the land promised to Abraham is gathered out of many people and brought back from the sword, which indicates that the land is taken from many people, out of many nations, by the sword. The phrase “and they shall dwell safely all of them” does not stipulate that a remnant of all 12 tribes are in this land or that Jesus Christ has returned to rule. But only those present at the time of this envasion shall be safe. Zechariah 12 & 13 explains who these people are and that only that remnant that accepts Jesus Christ will be saved.
    Last, I will no longer make any comments to this web site since I have compromised my desire to share scripture by my unintended attack against one’s beliefs by calling a doctrine false. I should have simply let the scriptures reveal themselves without comment and let the reader decide what is truth and what is not. I apologize once more, and hope that those whom I have hurt will understand that I have no desire to see our brethren fall because I did not lift a finger to warn them. I just did a poor job.

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    • Dave 2,
      This comment is way too long. I know you put out tons of energy and I can appreciate the words and the effort – believe me. But there is so much information it is hard to get through. Maybe next time you will consider sticking to one point or two at a time, ok?

      I am not offended or disrespected in any way. I was a little quiet in commenting because I lack a depth of true understanding on this topic. So, I read the comments and consider them. I’ve just finished a bible study on Revelation and read a most convincing article on the rapture. Some months back I had a delightful debate with another blogger through parts of Revelation. It is amazing what we can learn when we read together. That was mostly what my comments reflected. I’ve been reading this book since I was a teenager, but without too much true study. I’ve found different “teachers” have different ideas and this has created much confusion for me as it has for many. Oh, to know Greek, huh? Again, this is a very hard subject for most Christians but one that we should study and seek wisdom. (See my comment regarding this addressed to “everyone”.)

      This post was originally about a false mandate regarding the 7 mountains and I was wondering if this particular scripture was prophetic in that lie.

      Anyway, I hope you do come back, you are certainly welcome.

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    • Dave 2 there are some things I need clarification on. You’ve made some points here that bother me. I put my questions in italics.

      Number one, many today do not respect the Bible itself. Curiously, we have a God Whom can speak the entire universe into existence, but is too weak to accurately provide His Word to His children so that all can understand. Somehow, our God needs an interpretor
      and who qualifies? I thought the Holy Spirit was sent among other things to teach us His Word.
      I’m not sure what you meant here that God is week or that he needs an interpretor. Certainly not. If there is any fault or weakness it is to be with man, obviously not our God.

      The Spirit of God created language at the Tower of Babel but needs a man to translate Greek to English and then again to English.
      While God may have “created” language at Babel it was for judgment of their sin of rebellion against Him and the people scattered.

      Speaking of which, the linguists that translated the Greek texts for the modern Bible translations used source material from Alexandria that the Early church denounced as heresy, rather than just modernize English prose. As a result, texts were not just updated, their testimonies changed God’s message. That is why I mentioned Daniel 11:37.
      What was changed, what testimony changed?

      Further, Werstcott and Hort were not just simple bookworm linguists who provided an honest work to make it easier to understand God Word. These men practiced witchcraft while members of the Jews Society, the Apostles Club and other secret society venues.
      Who are these people? Translators? What did they do?

      Number two, when we allow ourselves to question God’s Word, as Eve did in the garden, we lose respect for God Himself. He then becomes the subject of controversy since His Word needs interpretation and man’s help to set things in order. I’ve yet to meet the man whom can counsel God.
      I don’t think anyone in discussing the bible here is questioning God in the way at Eve did in the garden. She was in rebellion; we are seeking the truth. And I will agree with your earlier comment that many seek teachers only to have their ears tickled. There’s more than enough of them these days, who are infact the very ones who are offended and will not hear when they are confronted with the truth in God’s word. They would rather follow the lies.

      If there are all these problems with the word of God how is it you find the truth in reading it? How do any of us?

      Thanks. 🙂

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  32. Hi, M’kayla! I think that the following will help in finding out who this mysterious woman in REVELATION is. Have a lot more to share but didn’t want to overwhelm! I am at work so I am sending these on the fly! I am SO GLAD that THE LORD JEHOVAH led me to your site! Don’t feel so alone as I used to in this ever darkening world! Thanks so much for all you do!

    ps: you might want to read about the following book on Amazon.com:
    THE NEW WORLD RELIGION by Gary H.Kah. 330 pp. Noblesville, Indiana: Hope International Publishing, Second Printing 1999. ISBN 0-9670098-0-4 (pbk)
    Hopefully you will get to read some of the reviews. The HOLY SPIRIT will lead into ALL understanding.

    1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5Ke7Tn3uOU

    2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-weBSEQMv48

    3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6Nm6bXk9NQ (MESSAGES FROM HEAVEN, EXCELLENT VIDEO)

    4.(AUDIO no visuals) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll7cB71QJn8 (Queen of heaven queen of all

    The following is a terrifying description of the REAL Catholic Church! THIS is the one world religion(with the pope as the false prophet) that will work with the United Nations(which is headed by satan himself; (listen to Phil Shneider, parts 1-7 speak on youtube about this). The catholic church will make sure the world is enslaved a la MAGDALENE SISTERS style. The antichrist, (who will be Syrian, why do you think rick warren traveled there a few years ago?!) will rule over all.

    THE BLACK VEIL PARTS 1 and 2 Audio, no visuals
    1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6yDuxzjpxE

    2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDLkLwJ_bO

    Try to see the movie “THE MAGDALENE SISTERS” if you can. You will be struck IMMEDIATELY by its resemblence to a concentration labor camp. THIS is the reason the public schoos are working feverishly with the U.N.’s “education program” to dumb down the children, while charging them up with a filthy perverted “sex education” program. That’s right, these young folks will be provided with a bevy of mind numbing distractions between slaving for the corporations. Think: sex, sex, sex, drugs and rock and roll em’ to the grave yard. See Berit Kjos Ministries for some excellent articles on this subject. Almost forgot to add one more video: Agenda 21(can’t get to youtube, p.c. is acting up, but that is the title). I hope this is not too long but there was so much I wanted to share and so little time to make my jumbled thoughts reasonably coherent!

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  33. This is an old blog post but I happened to find the comments linking The Truth Project with the 7 Mountains Mandate. Someone in our church raised this issue so i contacted Focus on the Family and received one phone call and 2 emails in reply. I would appreciate it if you would include these in my comments Thank you.

    Dear Friend,

    Thank you for contacting Focus on the Family’s The Truth Project ® (May 4, 2012). You’ve expressed a great deal of confidence in our ministry by turning to us with your inquiry, and we want you to know that we don’t take your trust for granted. It’s a pleasure to have this opportunity to be of service to you.

    The simple answer to your question is no. Focus on the Family has not aligned itself in any way with the “Seven Mountains Mandate.” It’s true that, according to blogger Kyle Mantyla (in a statement posted on the Right Wing Watch Web site, June 18, 2010), former Truth Project staff member Marc Fey did attend a “Seven Mountains” conference in February 2009, apparently as part of an effort to promote The Truth Project to a wider audience. But this should not be interpreted as evidence of a formal alliance between Focus and the “Seven Mountains Mandate,” nor does it imply Focus endorsement.

    As an aside, it’s crucial to point out that whereas Focus on the Family encourages Christians to exercise their rights and fulfill their obligations as American citizens, we have never implied or suggested that followers of Jesus Christ should strive for political domination. The Bible makes it very clear that God’s kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36). For further clarification of our perspective on this topic, we recommend that you read the information posted in the FAQ section of our Truth Project Web site
    [https://worldview.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/worldview.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=25362].

    We hope this reply has been helpful. Thanks again for caring enough to contact us. Don’t hesitate to let us know if we can be of any further assistance. God bless you.

    Timothy Masters
    Focus on the Family

    Dear Rich,

    Thanks for your recent e-mail (May 11). I was pleased to hear that you appreciated my response to your fellow pastor’s inquiry concerning Marc Fey, The Truth Project, and the “Seven Mountains Mandate.” In answer to the supplementary question you’ve raised, we think you’re on target in surmising that Os Hillman’s comment (“Focus will be helping support the conference”) referred exclusively to Mr. Fey’s participation in the February 2009 “Seven Mountains” conference. If Mr. Hillman was implying a larger role on Focus’s part, all we can tell you is that he did so without our knowledge or consent.

    We hope this helps, Rich. Thanks again for taking the time to get in touch. Grace, peace, and God’s richest blessings to you.

    Timothy Masters
    Focus on the Family

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    • I think the Truth Project looks a lot like the seven mountains and that is what made me take a bit of a closer look. Been almost 2 years now, I think. I know James Dobson has gone over to the dominionist camp as well. Most of these well known ministers, pastors and ministries seem to be doing the same thing. And why is it we think we need a program to teach us the truth? Has the Holy Spirit been diminished in His capacity to teach? No. I think it is more that people have become lazy in their own pursuit of learning, allowing and even preferring others to do the work for them. This attitude is the basis for deception and its acceptance. What will happen when the teachers are silenced? Ha. Maybe that will be a good thing for them.

      Thanks for posting the responses from Focus.

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    • I did research on the Truth Project when I was considering going thru it. If you are asking me if I took someone else’s word on it. No. I did my own work, as always.

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      • I am confident that you do your own work but I am wondering if that included watching the entire Truth Project. There’s no substitute for first hand and compete knowledge of a subject.

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        • I did research to satisfy my own questions about it on a personal level. But I will stand on the fact that I believe it is much like the 7 mountains, which I think has been pointed out, one if its teachers being involved in that teaching, and the program being joined with a 7 mountains seminar. I don’t believe we are to join with false teachers for any reason. In addition, I don’t need, nor will I ever trust again, another person to explain to me what I believe and why. Others may not feel the same, that is fine. We each must decide what is appropriate. I know that I have learned more outside a formal church setting than I did in one.

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      • I found your blog when I was doing research om The Truth Project. I have not read any other entries and do not know your story or view on anything else. From your last comment it sounded like you may not attend any local church, so it was an honest inquiry. Perhaps there is a post that would clarify this for me. Thank you.

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        • I left the church because of all the false teaching and the pastors refusal to see the truth. I went from the false teaching of “charismania” where I was quite involved in false prophecy and healing, to another which was going emergent. Neither listened. This blog is my story and my way of warning others of the growing apostasy, widely accepted as Christianity. Much of the teaching out there and the leaders are not biblical. Many are being pulled away because they refuse to see the truth, others as we know have been set in place for this time. I have learned to read and study the word outside the teaching of others, esp the well known teachers/preachers of our time. The Lord has met me in that place and I have learned so much more from Him. I’ve met many people on line in the same situation and who have watched their once bible believing churches become something else, and no one would listen to the warnings.

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            • Thanks for the brief history. It is unfortunate that this had to happen and as a pastor, I want to apologize for the way you have been treated in these churches. It pains my heart that you cannot find another local church that would be sufficiently Biblical. I believe that the local church is the God-ordained, Christ-driven, Holy Spirit-empowered strategy for reaching the world, fulfilling the Great Commission and building his church. Though you have been learning and healing on your own, I think that not being a part of a local church is as unbiblical as languishing in an apostate church, unless there is a compete lack of healthy churches in your area.

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              • Well, we are supposed to meet together, and I still do that with others, just not in a church setting as we have come to know it. There are times that I miss the church, but I have accepted the situation as it is. Thank you for your concern and encouragement! 🙂

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  36. Hi M’kayla
    I’m Nigerian. I realized how this 7M is having its share of the cake. Recently, I left my church to search things for myself, its this period I got to your site and I love it.
    this 7M and Dominionism is false. Is the 7M covering our fashion industry filled with indecency? what about the illegal drugs and alcohol, will they dominate it? will they take care of the sexual immorality on the alert and sexual abuse? What about the illuminati? Are they mountains of Holiness?

    Well, I stand on the Rock, Jesus Christ. I don’t have to dominate any mountain, I just have to walk in the dominion and victory of Jesus. Till he comes my duty is to fight the good fight of faith. Thank God for you.
    Nsirich

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    • The Lord bless you Nsirich! I always thought it was curious the way the NAR seem to want to bring biblical law, but if they ever succeed it will be to a point of control. As far as changing the areas that you mention-everything is worsening! What does that tell them? What does it say to their followers? I was recently sent the Defend Marriage Pledge, whose key signatories are well known false prophets and false teachers all over the world. There is no way I will stand with them in anything. But this is the point of it all…

      Be well! And thank you for your comment.

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  37. I first came across your site when I was first discovering the false doctrine of the NAR and many like it. It was a very difficult time for me as I realized that so much of the teaching I was receiving was false and was so thankful for all the help I have received from your site. — Today I was listening to a word-by-word teaching of Rev. 17:9. As soon as I heard the words “Seven Mountains” I immediately thought – could it be the “seven mountain mandate”. I was so impressed by the thought I started to see if there was any information on the internet. I was so thankful to see that you also had the same thoughts and there could be a connection.

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