Just received this as a comment. Please, if you are involved with Bethel, Crowder, any part of the charismatic/word of faith movement, the healing rooms or the prophetic, check these methods with the word of God. They may seem right, but they are occult at the core. I know this is so because I used to be a part of it all. Praise God for His saving grace!
I really wanted to share my story too as my church in the UK has become well & truly Bethelized, the transition into it has been a subtle & underhanded invasion, swapping of truth for error, what Im posting is about that journey of utter deception & how it gets in.
late 2009- Bill Johnson comes to my town in a big church wide event…. some time after that mtg (I didnt go to it because I really dont like big events) our senior pastor sat down with some leaders & discussed the audacity of bethel people visiting mind/body/spirit./psychic type fairs & setting up stalls that would offer to pray for healing & prophesy over people that would frequent such a place… 1st red flag no gospel preached/ & irresponsible – how on earth do people who are mostly drawn to occult practices discern & distinguish & make appropriate responses to that which is reportedly from a Holy God in that type of setting. ok I know god can reach anyone anywhere anyhow – but his “method” promotes spiritual confusion I believe in people who are dead to sin & lost to HIM.
May 2010: a group of leaders form our church & around the town visit Bethel… they return “odd’ different but not in a good way – immediately there is a lot of praying for individuals in the church by laying a hand on the forehead without the individual’s permission – these leaders just go up & “minister”- shouting & whooooaing in prayer times… also wafting hand movements during prayer times. my ” mentor’ who I love dearly & know very well now exhibits a subtle change in personality & has experienced a range of ill health ever since.
Red Flag 2: the language begins to change – we hear about impartation/intoxication of the spirit & relationship with father/ the work of Jesus on the cross becomes lessend as we focus on a culture of developing the prophetic/miracles & concentrate on being family
we see for the first time the practice of “fire tunnels”
rest of 2010…. we begin to immerse in Jesus culture music – begin preparing plans to launch our own healing rooms.. the “culture of honour” is widely talked about promoted from the senior leadership team.
Red flag 3: even though a culture of honour & doing everything from a place of loving relationship/family is promoted big time – various circumstances present themselves where honour should have been highly practiced – where in fact the opposite could be said
2011- senior leadership from Bethel visit the church. its obvious people form other places in the UK flock to hear the latest word.
healing rooms begins
Students from Bethel BSSM visit the town: we actively see for the first time prophetic art & the interpretation of it in our service time- soaking or what they would call “carpet time” is evident & other new phrases begin to pop into our language
* being whacked by God – get whacked – stay whacked – never go back
* get activated in the spirit/prophetic
* we want Jesus to get what he died for ( in relation to miracles)
* release & freedom become Big words
* Host the prescence
* More More & More
Red flag 3: senior leaders are imparting drunkeness to each other (& everyone else)- rolling around on floor – throwing love/bliss bombs at each other. & stating that they feel so drunk they are not sure how they could drive home. some of the behaviour they exhibit & allow would have been considered demonic & or worthy of discipline 20/25 years ago
present: *church decides to set up its own supernatural school of ministry
* other leaders visit to Bethel & other conferences around the uk & return using odd & confusing language – mostly pointing to the idea that Gods word was for then & the spirit or the flow (of the new wine) is for now
* we go totally overboard on the prophetic – with instruction form the senior leaders to develop, be ready & willing to give a prophetic word to literally anyone, anywhere, anytime.
Red flag 4: the occult creeps in: we now use Bethel’s offering readings ( look it up on their website) when we collect our tithes & offerings – this to me is nothing short of an incantation – a list of demands to get what WE want from God including “divine manifestations” & angelic visitations.
people are encouraged to place a cloth on their head during prayer at HR
& we are also offering people ” spiritual readings” this is where various prayers are written on cards & people are encouraged to randomly select one & have a leader pray over them for fulfillment in that area – just feels like home grown Tarot.
After all of this I have to say IM OUT – they will have my resignation by the end of the week !
I just felt I wanted to post all this so that others can see how this has happened chronologically like a drip drip drip effect of Blurrgh! which has sucked many in
m'kayla's korner 
Praise God that He opened your eyes and got you out of there! This is very insightful and helpful, I’ll be passing this story on to others. The whole, “Culture of Honor” is anti-Biblical. Puffing people up and filling them with pride is not a good thing. Christ never did that in the Scriptures.
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This sounds like Gnosticism..
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This is all so sad, and it seems to be everywhere anymore. Like happened with the church in this article, it came in gradually in a church I was in too. We never got quite that deep–thank God. But then I left some years ago. Who knows what is happening now.
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While they are distracted and laughing at each other the devil walks around seeking who he may devour.
1 Timothy said: I Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons devils
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The devil is indeed in their midst. He is their god and they do not even realize it. Thanks for the scripture reference. 🙂
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This movement is soooo occultic. So dangerous. I rejoice that this person had their eyes opened. Cheryl, you are so right. This is happening everywhere. It is like a flood of deception overtaking those who are not taking the time to test a thing. Thank you mkayla for sharing this with us. My husband needs to read it. Not that he believes Bethel had anything good, but he just needed to see some of what is going on there. As do others.
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From sound doctrine to apostasy in say 18 months. It doesn’t take long for this to happen. Those Johnsons are a dangerous bunch.! Should anyone ever doubt that the last days are upon us, the proof is here in abundance.
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yes it does certainly seem to be everywhere:
Im heartbroken & gutted it has come to this: if my story serves as an encouragement for others to muster the strength they also need to leave – I consider it an honour : thank you MK you have been so thorough in researching & collating everything so that we are able to post our testimonies of the one true God who restores, & delivers us from this mess.
my intention is clear for this week: we have a mtg in the next couple of days with senior leadership – which will indeed become an “exit interview” meanwhile someone from the leader team posted this quote from BJ
“A lot of what the church is afraid will offend the world, actually attracts the world and only offends the religious”. ~Bill Johnson
Friends: this is cultic thinking!!!!
so now anyone who has a question, concern, prophetic word of warning either rhema or logos or simply wishes to test the spirits – as entitled & commanded to do biblically- & work this through with our leadership shall be labelled;
* divisive
* rebellious
* having a religious spirit…..
* just plain wrong & /or deceived themselves
people have nowhere to go with this they either sit under deception & fear or they get OUT im praying the latter
& of course it means an end to biblical authority & relational accountability: permission granted for an absolutely anything goes culture — if “I say its from God it is” end of: will be the new thinking…. what a perversion – its also an end of SIN too — instead of repentance – the modern Bethelized church – does away with the problem of sin by making sinful things (increasingly I fear) acceptable.
crying buckets today!
Zazzy
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“A lot of what the church is afraid will offend the world, actually attracts the world and only offends the religious”. ~Bill Johnson
Any person with an operating brain would or should ask what the what is in this example. There is a blind subject which should raise questions for a definitive explanation. But instead BJ fans looove his one-liners swapping biblical truth and wisdom for mere entertainment.
I believe this quote is actually quite telling. The truth is people are offended by the gospel, yet attracted to those things that feed their flesh. This is the true reason why so many flock to these meetings and continue to attend those churches because they are told things that make them feel better about who they are and what they will become. They get to experience a wide variety of ecstatic (?? is that the word??) experiences, just as they have been promised. None of them stop to ask what the presence of God feels like according to scripture tho, do they?
Coming out is extremely hard. It goes against the teaching we have heard for years – to attend. Maybe following that order was the first step to deception because in most of our churches the true gifts of the Spirit are not in operation, yet for how many hundreds of years we still attended. And yes, there will be tears, many of them for a long time. And that is ok, it is necessary.
There are quite a few scriptures that provide answers on what we are to do in these situations. I showed them to my x pastor as he was allowing the emergents in office and leadership, and was told that I misunderstood them and misapplied, and was reminded of my womanhood. I believe with the deception, no matter how slight it seems to the greater whole of the church, comes with an ability to remove the focus and point the finger back to the one who is trying to show the truth. Some time ago I wrote something to the effect being the same behavior as the playground bully. What they don’t realize is that even tho unrelated to each other, having never met, they all say the same things.
I still struggle with what to do NOW. Maybe the answer is to do nothing because doing is not what saves in the first place. There may be a time when we are removed and put into jails. There will be no spiritual guidance for us, but only the reliance on the Holy Spirit. If it brings you comfort, consider this training ground and know that while you may feel you are in the minority, you are part of a growing Christian culture. Hmmm…kind of a counter culture to modern Christianity. I think I like how that sounds. It must be the rebel in me.
I’ll pray for your meeting and you let us know how it turned out. Steel yourself now as you probably will not be heard. That does not change the truth of who the real Jesus Christ is or how His Holy Spirit moves those who follow His word. There are four chapters in John that were extremely helpful to me in the beginning – 14, 15, 16, 17.
Stay in touch my dear. 🙂
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well- we had the mtg…. I had to leave it a bit of time before I posted a response for various reasons.
these are the main outcomes that my senior leader shared with me:
* B J/Bethel (teaching & theology) is sound
* Ive set my self up as watchdog & this promotes a bad attitude in me which I am to stop — ( my interpretation = dont be weighing anything else you hear & certainly dont research stuff on the net)
* christians ( who are living in the power of the spirit) cannot be deceived ( my interpretation = Im not living in the spirit & therefore I AM the one deceived…)
* signs & wonders are merely “signs” & therefore not doctrines which we can base anything on – they are not a basis for faith ( my interpretation = no need to discern anything against scripture because they are ambigious & mean very little in the end because faith comes through hearing the word of God… true enough – but then we just totally accept & embrace an anything goes culture where everything & anything is accredited to the work of the Holy Spirit)
* Im in FEAR & fear of course is the opposite of faith I have a responsibility to ensure that the fear of what might happen ( in terms of dodgy stuff from bethel) is not promoted throughout the church…) (my interpretation = Im now responsible for helping other people “get it” & not be fearful because im in a junior leadership position – — this is GUILT TRIP/ CONTROL & fear on me – which Im not accepting in the mighty name of Jesus & recognition that they see some things as controversial but this is all good in terms of moving forward to extend God’s kingdom on the earth.
* Kundalini & stuff that looks like its from eastern mysticism is really not.. it all belonged to God in the first place… the devil hijacked it centuries ago & has counterfeited it … now (at last) the church is claiming it back ( my interpretation = absolutely 0% discernment & even basic willingness to check out other points of view as someone somewhere on my senior leadership team should have noticed that the hindus refer to this stuff as “serpent power”: anything that looks supernatural therefore can be attributed to be the work of the Holy Spirit
* Angels: Angelic activity will increase when we embrace the presence of God in our Midst…. when I explained I believed that demonic activity would also be on the increase & we need to watch out for the difference…(Angels of light) they were concerned I had spent time thinking this through when such a thing has not occurred yet. my focus should be on my deepening relationship with the Holy spirit (my interpretation = jump in the river – accept everything & dont stop to weigh, discern or test anything just enjoy God’s presence)
* some of the practices highlighted that Bethel/ BSSM do were discussed.. one of the senior leadership said: ” but WE wouldnt do that here..”. the problem is of course .. that some who are totally into this stuff – would & then a refusal to participate by others would most probably seen as anti embracing at such a time – the pressure to conform to stay with it is immense & no one is sure where a line could be drawn. ( my interpretation= accept everything & anything that comes out of Bethel – its all good – we dont just understand it yet because they are farther on in spiritual understanding than we are – trust them!)
so then my conclusions
instead of a true culture of honour we have a church culture that is foundationally full of fear – control & manipulation. Totally lacking in any need for discernment – hook line & sinker following after Bethel no questions asked & everything I raised is turned around made into my problem- if I accept that which I dont… I am blamed & accused & made to feel guilty simply for asking reasonable questions.
they will not hear & will not change so there is only one way to go with this
OUT!
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Zazzy, I am sorry to hear yet again the pastor and leadership of a church would not hear the truth. So many are blinded by Bethel, but I believe because of all the goings on in the past people have been programmed to accept it. What will become of them when false signs and wonders really kick in?
You know the truth! Thank you for standing up to these people, and maybe one day the Lord will set them free because of the seeds you planted – and I do believe this is truth, because God’s word does not return void. 🙂 In addition, it helps others here on the blog as they read it. I know it is very hard but the value is so great!
We are not told to accept teachings or to trust false prophets and teachers, but to know them through research – testing and then to expose them and leave their presence and warn others! To continue in false doctrine and blindly trust others is rebellion to our Lord.
Stay in touch! 🙂
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“A lot of what the church is afraid will offend the world, actually attracts the world and only offends the religious”. ~Bill Johnson
Friends: this is cultic thinking!!!!
Yes, it’s cultic. And, once again, here’s an example of Johnson posing false dichotomies, and this is one of his faves: being “religious” is equated to being so attached to Truth that the Spirit is supposedly negated or quenched. However, of course, we are supposed to worship in Spirit AND Truth. The implication by Johnson is that Truth, or “religion,” kills Spirit. This is a misapplication of 2 Corinthians 3:6:
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. [NIV]
The “letter” in this case is the OT Mosaic Law which NT Christians understand was fulfilled in Jesus — not NT Truth as opposed to Spirit. The Mosaic Law kills; the Spirit gives life to the regenerate.
they return “odd’ different but not in a good way Could this be as a result of (an) occultic encounter(s)?
Thanks for sharing this testimony.
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It is dangerous to add your interpretation and share it as the Word, the Apostle is not talking about the law, he says elsewhere that the law is holy and just and good. Jesus said not a jot or tittle would pass til all would be fulfilled; the new covenant is the law written on our hearts
The Spirit of G-d and the Torah (law) of G-d agree, Yeshua who you call Jesus, was the Torah (word) made flesh. He obeyed the Torah and walked in the Spirit at the same time, which we can now do in Him! The law of Moses reveals Yeshua as he shared on the road to Emmaus! Every letter is embedded with the truth about Yeshua, he is the Living Torah!
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This is a great testimony.
Don’t remember if i have already shared this. but years ago my uncle went to a Oral Roberts revival where he was healed? by Roberts. HIs leg actually grew 2″ which evened his two legs, but thereafter he could levitate tables. My aunt would slap his arm and say, “Stop that Clifford.” This demonstrated the spiritual source and the danger of not testing the spirits as scripture instructs. He has suffered mentally since his false healing and still follows the Copelands, not attending any church or interested in scripture.
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Kim, what a scary story! I’ve seen that attempted when I was in the healing rooms and always thought it was ridiculous. But, to have that power later on is something I hadn’t even considered. I do feel bad for your uncle and hope he finds the truth.
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Kim,
That is rea;lly scary. To think something like that could happen through someone laying hands on you and you not even know it until later. How did they explain what happened to him? Did they think it was from the occult or did they think it was from God? I think most of the folks that are involved in this that I know would just assume it had to be from God and certainly wouldn’t connect the mental illness with it in any way.
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Kim, I respect you and your blog, but it’s hard for me to believe this story. Oral Roberts was no different to all the other “faith healers” – an expert at manipulating people into believing that they have been healed, but with no ability whatsoever. Did you ever see the incidents you describe?
It is interesting that you mention your uncle’s mental health – I am convinced that this is a common result of faith healing. If someone gets brainwashed or hypnotised into believing that they are healed, but it’s apparent that they are not, then this can create a huge mental conflict as the brain tries to reconcile the contradictions. Some people will realise that they were conned, but for others the result is mental illness. This is one of the reasons why such deception is highly dangerous.
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It’s so hard for those of us on the outside to imagine being so blinded by satan as to make the practices and teachings at Bethel in any way attractive. But that’s the horrifying truth of it. Satan appears as an angel of light. Thanks for posting this testimony. My many eyes read it and the Holy Spirit make them SEE!
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My sister was at that revival meeting in the late 60’s. She told me that suddenly one of the tents started to flap wildly and then the tent flew off into the air. Chairs began to be tossed crazily and thrown into the air. She and my cousin ran for their lives for they knew there was evil there. I knew that my uncle was never healed by Roberts. I thought for awhile that his faith healed him, but now I know that it was an occult healing.
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It sounds like people would of had to run for their lives just to escape being killed by flying chairs!
Did anyone there besides your sister and your cousin figure out this was something that was not from God?
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By Whose Power Does Bill Johnson Perform Healings?
“What have I done? This guy thinks he hobbled in here…wait until he tries to walk out!”
– Bill Johnson, 2009
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NAR/IAHR/WOF all have the practice of stamping “in Jesus’ name” on whatever it is they want accomplished and “poof” it is to appear. This is not prayer in the true sense, which is to make a request known to God, but a command for Him to perform at the will, want and desire of man. This is not as Jesus prayed in John 17 “if it be Your will” or as those who spoke with Jesus “if You are willing”. Charismania teaches that believers have the same power and authority as Christ and so to speak healing is to accomplish it.
Craig you asked in your article what else there can be. (for the sake of the conversation here) There is a power out there that seems to heal and one that is being promoted throughout health care systems – Reiki touch or massage, which I believe is the same as Kundalini or Chi, just different environments/religions. Each have a source of energy though either touch, movement, or breath. I’m not saying all massage is bad, only this Reiki which like the others claim a healing touch or power source which is transferred from one person to another resulting in “healing”. We should also consider the growing importance and use of Yoga. In any event I do believe these are the same sources that go on in healing rooms and the like, they may seem to have some power and do some good at the moment, but long term there is no true healing.
As to the leg/arm growing out. I’ve seen this done many times, badly. I watched a woman’s spine being manipulated as tho it was being moved by some unseen chiropractor until she went from a standing position to being laid out on the floor for a very long time. She was not healed.
I’ve seen people seated in chairs with legs outstretched while a person speaks, “grow, grow, a little more, a little more” as tho the person was telling God how much He needed to do. In one case God must have gone to far because I heard the person say “that was a little too far Lord, grow the other one out now to match”. Unbelievable!!??? Absolutely. I firmly believe these are suggestions to the mind that can cause the person to relax and adjust their sitting position (standing if it is the arms), their spine and muscles can flex, relax, tighten, move, as a suggestion is given to the mind. No matter what, I do not believe these are genuine healing miracles.
Yes, Ruth, nothing but a parlor trick so to speak, an opportunity to “show what we can do, while others cannot”.
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Think about it: if the devil can cause infirmity he can also take it away, manifesting as a false “healing”. What might seem counterproductive to him is actually not because if by means of a false healing that person ends up putting their faith in the occult, the devil can obtain their soul!
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What is with all the leg growing? I don’t understand that. Are there that many people suffering from unequal leg length? Why do so many in the charismatic circles assume a leg-growing is what is needed? Seems like I have been hearing about this regularly for 20 years now, like it’s a parlor trick.
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Ruth, it’s been around a lot longer than 20 years, it is just a trick, and anyone who does it is a deceiver who is unfit to be in christian ministry.
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This may be a bit off topic here. But have we seen a progression from the days that saw tents flying away and chairs being thrown into the air? It seems like just a few years ago in the era of the Brownsville revival we hearing about people being thrown across the room or slammed up and down multiple times until they were black and blue.
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I believe there is a definite progression.
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M’Kayla, you wrote: There is a power out there that seems to heal and one that is being promoted throughout health care systems – Reiki touch or massage, which I believe is the same as Kundalini or Chi, just different environments/religions. Each have a source of energy though either touch, movement, or breath.
I agree with this. However, there’s been discussion on the CrossWise article that points to the possibility that there are actual healings, they are just not divine healings. They’re not of GOD. Kim’s account about her uncle seems to confirm that. Could this be what 2 Thess 2:9-12 is referring to?
That’s not to deny that there are absolute false healings in every sense of the word. The academy award winning documentary Marjoe and even Derren Brown (whose power I’m not convinced is all explained away by natural means) are individuals who’ve shown this sort of thing.
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Craig, I may have overstated. In my 2 1/2 years in the healing rooms I never saw anyone healed of a major disease. I was just talking with some friends about the antichrist and the lying signs and wonders that is to come. I often wondered if we are not seeing a “warm up” with these incidents, as that demonic power grows and is spread throughout the world. It could be just that. I still struggle with the idea that satan could heal as the bible does not state that. He is a liar and a deceiver, with the ability to make a person believe a thing that is not there. It’s an interesting debate topic. 🙂
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M’Kayla,
I think about Pharoah’s staff turning into a snake mimicking Aaron’s staff. Also, given that Satan was given permission to afflict Job physically with sores, etc., could God not give Satan permisson to “heal?”
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I also believe that satan has the power to “heal”: a false healing that can enable him to have a person’s soul if, as a result of that healing they end up putting their faith in the occult.
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Greetings,
There is so much deception about. In relation to the Pharaoh and the snakes and other demonic stuff there is very clear evidence – have a look at ‘demonic magic’ on youtube and also the pre-CGI age footage of the chap having spears thrust through his vital organs. It is crucial to understand as we seem to be approaching the end times that a) there is a whole supernatural realm and b) supernatural does not equal good. SATAN IS THE FATHER OF LIES AND THE PRINCE OF THIS WORLD. That is a very powerful combination – but thankfully we have the Mighty Jesus Christ who came in the flesh and will come again. God bless
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Craig, I’ve watched both Marjoe and Derren Brown (I presume you mean his recent faith-healing exposé) and I’m really curious to know why you’re unhappy with the natural explanation. I think it explains everything perfectly, but then I may be missing something.
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anastasis,
While I’ve seen Derren Brown’s recent expose (very good!), I am speaking of some of the others. Hypnotism may be or seem “natural” but there certainly can be and I do believe IS a spiritual component. Constance Cumbey witnessed an event in which Benjamin Creme instantly “hypnotised” most of his audience. Only Cumbey and her associates (as far as they could see) were not affected as they were born again Christians and, expecting this, prayed in opposition.
Under hypnosis the individual is in a highly susceptible to the will of the hypnotist. That’s a dangerous place to be!
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Craig, I watched Constance’s youtube video too. It was amazing!
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Craig,
Please can you say why you feel that there is a spiritual component to hypnosis.
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It would seem that what happened in Toronto 17 years ago is similar to Frankenstien’s monster being unleashed upon an unsuspecting village. What they initially called life and renewal was actually death and destruction. Great story but a horrid heads up as to the evil the Toronto Blessing has unleashed. May God use every saint who has escaped this madness to warn others.
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I’m afraid that the monster was around a lot earlier. I’ve seen Toronto-style manifestations dating back to the early 1970s. Mass laughter appeared at Rodney Howard Browne meetings well before the Toronto Blessing. There was simply the right combination of circumstances at Toronto in 1994 that caused it to spread widely. Their affiliation at that time with the Vineyard movement was the key thing, as Wimber’s teaching was very influential all over the world. If they’d been an independent church, we probably wouldn’t be having this conversation.
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Yes, I saw some of that myself. I heard a little teaching on the history of the church and come to find out this stuff has always been around. It’s not new at all. Just goes to say again, there is nothing new under the sun.
🙂
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I have been in a bit of a tailspin, ever since the events following the Lakeland “Revival,” trying to sort out what I do & do not believe anymore. It’s ended up being a good thing for me in a way, because it’s really forcing me to search the scriptures & pray about teaching I’ve received. One thing that has struck me gobsmacked while I was researching all of the “players” involved in Todd’s “movement” is the obvious physical resemblance between Bob Jones and the Japanese deity of hell, Emma-o which is the name he gave to the “angel” who would be instrumental in Todd’s global ministry (also a carry-over from the apostate ministers of the 1940’s).
You can see pictures of both here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/31285765/Todd-Bentley-Emma-o-Goddess-of-the-Underworld-1-Docx
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Well, I did quite a bit of reading but I never saw that pic of Emma-O. There is quite a similarity in those cheeks!
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By the way, anyone who gives credit to an “Angel” for healing instead of the Holy Spirit living in us, is misplacing the glory. It seems anti-Christ. Greater is He Who is in me, than he who is in the world!
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Yes, you are right about that. No one can heal except the Lord God. However, it is widely taught throughout Charismania the angels bring healing. Another great point for the followers to research the bible. 🙂
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I had a personal encounter with Bill Johnson a few years ago in Harrisburg, PA, USA. He was visiting a sister church and my husband is a big Bill Johnson fan (still), so we went to see him speak. Before we left, we both believed that God would give us a SIGN during this encounter… we’d been praying for children for years and years and Bill Johnson is always going on about signs and wonders. When we got there, things took the usual course w/ Bill teaching & sharing his experiences, etc. Then he had Healing School students come to the front to give healing words of knowledge. As various conditions were being called out, people were to raise their hands if they were suffering from them and the rest of us were instructed to rally around these individuals and pray for them. I noticed a little girl (8 or 9 yrs. old) in front of me cross the aisle and begin to pray for a total stranger and I remember being impressed with her faith and boldness. Later when everyone was returning to their seats, I heard someone say, “Annaliese?” but I couldn’t tell where it came from, or who said it. (The reason my ears perked up is because 2 years earlier a friend told me that God had shared with her that I was supposed to have faith for children, pick names, write them down and paste them on their bedroom doors. I was pleasantly shocked because just the night before, I was reading a magazine and noticed the name ANNALIESE and mentioned it to my husband as a beautiful name for a little girl… so I picked it!) At any rate… this was our sign!!! My husband began weeping when we finally found ANNALIESE and she turned out to be the little girl who I noticed earlier. Her mother brought us up front to share what had happened with Bill Johnson. He had the little girl touch my belly and pray for my womb to be opened.
I’ve always been a little incensed when people have prayed for my womb to be opened (even before I knew that my husband had fertility issues & I did not.) EVERYONE who’s supposed to be “prophetic” has prayed that over me… so much for discernment. At the time, I just accepted their blessing and kept believing.
I am now 44 years old and still childless. Bill Johnson speaks about signs a lot – he says the signs point to something bigger, which is the Lord. He can go on and on about gemstones, gold dust, feathers, etc. being “Signs that make you Wonder,” however, Jesus said, “And THESE signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; the will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.” Mark 16:17-18 (emphasis mine.)
Father, prevent me from being naïve and being deceived. I want to accept Jesus as a little child, but help me test the living daylights out of everyone else’s teaching according to your word, “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” 1 John 4:1 AMEN!
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Plumb, I am truly sorry to hear this happened to you. I am more than familiar with the womb prayer and the prophecies that go along. It is heart breaking to know that so many are being hurt at such an emotional and important place, the desire of their hearts. It makes me angry when those unanswered prayers and prophecies are poo-pooed away with claims of a spiritual birth instead of a physical one.
But I am happy and rejoice with you that you no longer follow after such things, as did I. I looove this from you – help me test the living daylights out of everyone else’s teaching according to your word and hope that would be the way for all of us.
Signs are dangerous but we are told of the lying ones and that many will be deceived by them. A time is coming when it may be hard to tell except for those who follow hard after Him, those who have tested the daylights… 🙂 Those who seek after the signs, the next encounter, the next word, this or that, are following after their own fleshly lusts and not after Christ.
Still my heart goes out to you. Thank you for your honesty!
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anastasis,
I was not there ,that day at the Oral Roberts revival. I was about 12. My sister and cousin were there and they are 10 years older than me, so they were about 22. My mother died in February so as the family gathered together we shared again some of these experiences and how it has spiritually affected our lives and our relatives. I can vouch that my uncle’s leg grew. He lost a good portion of his foot in a motorcycle accident. Many times he would pull up his pant legs up and show us kids his knees. His thigh had grown longer and one knee was about 2 inches lower than the other. I can verify this as fact. But I have also seen many false attempts like m’kayla described.
If you have ever read Kurt Koch he describes interesting occult healings that he has seen during his missionary life. If you think shamans cannot heal… you might investigate. But there is usually some kind of oppression that occurs. He has documented many of his case studies.
Unfortunately, my family has had their share of mystical and occult experiences. I have seen the oppression and damage in their lives.
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The name is Dr. Kurt E. Koch if you google him.
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Hi M’Kayla, and everyone else. I’ve been reading these comments with interest, having been involved in the pentecostal/charismatic/healing hoopla way back in the 60’s and onward. I’ve seen ‘Marjoe’, but not the other guy. The question of whether or not healing, etc can be real if it’s not God working it, is a problem that I believe is partially answered by the words of Jesus in Matthew 7:22 (& surrounding). It’s interesting to note that these people claim to have done miraculous things in Jesus’ name, yet He doesn’t deny their claims, He denies their obedience to Him & says HE never knew THEM. added to the numerous passages that tell us about lying signs & wonders, I believe that miracles can be accomplished by the Devil & his followers, but only within the permissive will of God, like Job in reverse if you like. Satan caused Job to be physically harmed through spiritual power, so it’s logical that he could affect someone’s health in a ‘positive’ way too. If God is going to allow the devil and the antichrist and the false prophet to perform quite amazing ‘miracles’, why not at any time in history? The issue is our love of the truth (2 Thess. 2:9-11). Verse 9 states; “Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, (2 2:9 KJV)” notice; ‘all power’ here. I don’t believe the lying wonders are always fake, but the lie is in the manner of attaining the healing. If God saw fit to not heal Paul, even after Paul ASKED Him three times, then Paul humbly accepts God’s will, what would it mean if Paul had found a WOF ‘healer’ to actually accomplish the healing? That may have worked, but Paul has been disobedient to the clearly revealed will of God for him and ceased to FOLLOW Christ. I believe (but I’m open to God’s correction here), that this is what Jesus meant when He called these people; “workers of iniquity” They did these things according to THEIR will, not GOD’S will. Does that make sense? I believe the primary issue is our love of the truth, evidenced by our humbling ourselves to HIS will. Sorry for the long post, but I think this matter of being willing to accept God’s will is the ultimate thing here and that’s why God allows Satan this power, just as He allows His people to suffer persecution, or illness, or other ‘negative’ things. The bible says they can be for our benefit, although we may not see it. Blessings to all of you in Jesus,
Alan
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Alan,
Excellent! You are saying essentially what is being said on this thread here By Whose Power Does Bill Johnson Perform Healings?.
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Great points Alan!
Still, I have to wonder if there were actual healings going on, or if they were under the delusion – mind control – that we see going on today. God could grant Satan power to heal, but is there a reference to that in the bible? I see Satan as a deceiver, not a healer. Again, mind control. If Jesus told them He never knew them, isn’t to say they really did not heal in His name? I thought the Jews knew only God could heal and was the reason why Jesus came healing many. This is an interesting topic that I would like to spend more time with.
I will consider your points and Craig’s and I thank you both for your time and your words! 🙂
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Even if the healings were real, physical healings, I still see that as deception from Satan because he is always leading them away from true salvation. Whatever it is the sheeple “need” – signs, wonders, healings – well, that’s what he gives them.
Even most of those who knew exactly who Jesus was rejected Him in the end. Remember all those crowds cheering Hosannah at the triumphal entry? They KNEW He was the promised Messiah from the prophesy of scripture, and yet they were the very ones who demanded His death. In the end, they wanted the signs and wonders, not salvation.
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M’Kayla,
Consider Pharoah’s magicians who turned the staff into a snake after Aaron did same. I know that’s not healing, but, it does show miraculous power not of God.
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The research I’ve done on satanic “healings” indicates that satan doesn’t have the power to heal but can only mimic a healing. So, while it appears the person is healed, because their symptoms go away, in reality an even worse disease or problem (like a mental disease) occurs later. A friend of mine was taken to an Amish pow-wow healer as a girl for an ailment; she has had mental problems into adulthood, for ex. If you google Dean Hochstetler, you will find an interesting six-sermon teaching on occult healing/practices and his view of the effects on those exposed to it. The teaching is focused on the Amish and Mennonites, who historically used pow-wowing (aka Black Forest medieval magic) to heal. Some still do it.
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Thanks for that information – quite interesting!!! 🙂
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anastasis,
I presume you are aware that hypnosis is no longer used in US courts as it has been found unreliable. Some end up “remembering” things they never knew. Some believe they remember “past lives” under hypnosis. I presume you don’t believe in reincarnation.
You may want to hear Cumbey’s account of Creme’s mass hypnotism for yourself:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8937919448007045479&q=Cumbey&total=23&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0#
Sorry, but I don’t recall where this account is on the clip. Here’s something I wrote three years ago in an article:
When Crème walked in, he made a ‘wave’ with his hand and the crowd immediately went into a deep trance save for Cumbey and her eight associates. She made noises in attempts to get the other attendees out of their trance but to no avail.[1] The whole account is rather unsettling.
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Craig, I will look at the whole video when I have time. But what I’m trying to understand is why you see hypnotism as spiritual. Forgive me if I’m being stupid or ignorant.
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anastasis,
I may not be expressing myself well. Perhaps I should say hypnotism can be a vehicle — whether from another or by self — in which the hypnotized individual is in a suggestive state and opened up to potential demonic infiltration. In this way hypnotism is likened to meditation — both open up the mind to suggestion.
Is the individual hypnotized solely under the power of the hypnotizer? If so, then the hypnotized is subject to the spiritual influence of the hypnotizer, whether good or evil.
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I don’t think it’s accidental that most if not all false teachers begin their “meetings” with hypnotic music and singing. And it’s not just false teachers – it’s prevalent everywhere. People have been taught by the mainstream church for a long time now that true spiritual worship involves “losing yourself” in the worship, so to speak. Very easy to learn and very easy to become addicted to. Then a “preacher” can get up and say just about anything because the people have let go of their capacity for critical thinking. It’s just a mild form of self-hypnosis.
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I agree, Sandy.
This is why I have a massive problem when people say that the worship in a church was “anointed” and they really met with God through it. Inevitably, it’s because the music entranced them and they had a spiritual experience. But it’s completely man-made, so it’s nothing to do God, and I cannot see how it has any part in genuine Christianity.
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YEP!
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I’m glad we’re agreed here.
But explaining this to charismatics and trying to get them to see sense is very difficult (believe me, I’ve tried!).
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In D. R. McConnell’s well regarded book exposing Word of Faith excesses A Different Gospel, the author’s thesis regarding E. W. Kenyon, the REAL father of Word of Faith, “is that in his attempt to help the church respond to the ‘challenge’ of the cults [Christian Science, New Thought, etc.], Kenyon ‘absorbed’ metaphysical concepts in order to restore healing ministry to the church” [p 30]. McConnell essentially asserts that Kenyon took a pragmatic approach to healing in order to grow the Church since members were leaving for Christian Science, New Thought and Unity churches in part because of healings, signs and wonders.
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Could it be that temporary healing’s are sent from God Himself as part of the “strong delusion” so that people will believe a lie because they don’t love the truth? Perhaps healing has become an idol to so many desperate people. From my own personal experience I truly believe sickness and disease is a real test to see whether we will stay close to God or turn to Amish “doctors”, faith healers, etc. out of desperation. I have to remind myself to think along the lines of Job–that even if God slays me, still I will praise Him, and shouldn’t we not only accept blessings from God, but also adversity (which sometimes is a blessing in disguise).
I’ve struggled with my health for years, (diagnosed with fibromyalgia years ago), I’ve been to Amish doctors, faith-healers, exorcists, etc. I would always get worse, especially mentally. At one point I became involved with an herbalist that was into all of this. She would tell me that the “energy” revealed to her unhealed memories about my past. To make a long story short, I developed False Memory Syndrome due to her “directive therapy” It almost destroyed me and my family. This person has now helped to found the “River” church in my area. She is now involved in the SOZO ministry, healing rooms, soaking prayer, etc. if that tells you anything. They promote Bethel church in Redding CA and seem to idolize Bill Johnson. He is a truly dangerous man. I wonder if the same “energy” reveals things to him and his followers, just in a different disguise. The devil wears many hats doesn’t he?!
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Lee Anne, “temporary” healings are not sent from God. They are simply a product of the human mind, normally resulting from hypnotic manipulation or other similar techniques that are well understood by psychologists. We have a tendency to spiritualise things that we can’t understand, but this is not helpful and doesn’t fit the facts. The truth sets you free – including from false “healers” and the fear of evil spirits. The only demonic element is the deception that leads you to believe that what is happening is supernatural. It’s not.
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We have a tendency to spiritualise things that we can’t understand,
Very good point as we have seen this played over and again throughout the years with the NAR/charismania/wof, etc and with the emergent. Same stuff goes on in the occult.
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That is quite a story. I believe it is the same demonic power being passed around – a power, an energy, a spirit guide, manifestation, etc. The names and affiliations change but the ultimate source does not – the father of lies.
I don’t believe God temporarily heals people. At least I don’t know of a scripture which states such a thing. False healers claim healing can be lost tho, and use it as a source of teaching, drawing new crowd – “come see how it is done”, selling their wares, making their money. It’s all part of the deception of Satan. A person may think they are healed, caught up in the emotionalism, mind control, etc., only to find out differently later on. And I agree it is part of the strong delusion in chasing after idols, even other gods – those who claim to be so much like Christ they have His anointing.
John 5:14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, “See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.” This is close, but not a lost or partial healing.
God allows things in our lives and while these things can be extremely painful they are His will, which we gave our own over for. This is a great contrast to popular teaching as we are not promised healing or lives free of sickness or disease. That’s how it started, but there was that apple thing in the garden. 🙂
Glad you got away from that stuff! 🙂
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Hi God bless you! Jesus healed a man and told the man to sin no more lest a worse thing come upon him. So, Jesus healed the man in a real healing. Yet, Jesus said the man could lose his healing if he went back to sin.
John 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
I prayed for a woman. She was instantly healed in the name of Jesus. Doctor verified. She had a whole new spine. But I saw evil creeping back into her life and attitudes. And… her back broke.
I am a real born-again Christian… God does work miracles through me as I pray in the name of Jesus. Most remain. Sometimes… I see this happen.
Jesus spoke also of those who have 7 times the demon power come into them after His ministry to them… because they never had a real lasting change in their own lives.
So, Jesus is reliable of course. Jesus taught on persons losing a real healing… and becoming even 7 times worse after He ministered to them. Be blessed!
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Thanks mkayla – this is actually the key point I try to get people to understand.
A good analogy is primitive man’s view of fire as supernatural or divine. If a time traveller came along from the future with a box of matches, he would be seen as a god or someone with miraculous powers. We now know that this isn’t true as fire is natural, simply a product of the created order.
Now consider the signs and wonders movement. Most christians do not know anything about mind control, psychology, hypnosis, etc – in fact they are often told to avoid them. So when they see someone with the apparent ability to do miracles, they do not have the knowledge to rationally analyse what they see, and so they assume that it’s either God or the devil at work. I believe that this approach is no different to treating fire as supernatural.
I have been researching this whole area for years, and I am convinced that there is a natural explanation for virtually everything, including all the weird stuff and supposed healings that have been seen in the church since the Shakers, if not before. From the beginning of pentecostalism through to the charismatic movement, there is very little that can’t be explained as the result of trance states and hypnotic manipulation, normally induced by music or preaching. You see the same pattern so often it becomes predictable – long period of music (aka “worship”), long talk, then people believe they’ve been healed, or start “manifesting” in some way. Oral Roberts, Kathryn Kuhlman, John Wimber, Morris Cerullo, Benny Hinn, Rodney Howard Browne, Toronto, Pensacola, Todd Bentley, Bill Johnson, the latest is the revival in Mobile Alabama. They’re all variations on the same theme. and they’re all fake.
But, for many people, it requires a massive paradigm shift to break out of the mindset of seeing things as spiritual and come to the realisation that they result from the way the human brain is wired. That’s what I’ve been trying to encourage in my commenting.
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I don’t think we are talking about the same things. Only God has the power to do true miracles. Satan has been given the power to deceive. Those who do not test the goings on in these meetings and instead support them as the power and presence of the Holy Spirit are deceived by his power and many have been led astray, some as to the ruin of their faith. I do believe this is demonic power in these meetings, the worship, the teachings and the manifestations. This is what I experienced and the result shown to me. I will agree some things that go on in these meetings and claims are flat out lies, some even the same as magician tricks. My earlier comment was more to the fact that the things taking place in these meetings that cannot be explained are from God, when they are not. This would be revealed if they were to read their bibles in context, but instead they pull out bits and pieces to find confirmation that they need. Just more deception.
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Perfectly spoken, People are so thirsty for miracles that they have made demi gods out of the ones perpetrating false ones.. This is Satan! He has convoluted the true power of the Spirit by counterfeiting it. People are so gullible! Faith is the only thing that pleases God, Marketing miracles is evil! Seriously, Purple dust? Love is the greatest miracle, It is Agape love, a love we are not capable of without true (epignosis) or understanding of God’s word, Which he exalts above himself! This allows God’s word to be written on our heart, People have been seduced forsomething the truly lust for..So who are they exalting? themselves of course in a very crazy but biblical way. God exalts the humble! Jesus was a servant., Also, These people are getting RICH! Whenever $$$$$ becomes an issue RUN!
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Sandy wrote: …the people have let go of their capacity for critical thinking. It’s just a mild form of self-hypnosis.
Exactly! And, whether through self-hypnosis, hypnosis, or meditation, the individual is susceptible to demonic forces.
8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 9 Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings. [1 Peter 5:8-9; NIV 1984]
This requires vigilance, not passivity. Otherwise, a door is opened.
Reading through the Alice A. Bailey Theosophic/New Age/occult books, the author – who is a willing vessel for demonic “automatic” writing — states that this “Spiritual Hierarchy” [demons] needs our permission/cooperation. I don’t think anyone would disagree that meditation is an open door; so, is hypnotism another?
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Craig, this is the conclusion that I came to for myself when I was involved in the healing rooms and the false prophetic. I could not understand how a Christian could become so deceived or portray behavior that seemed to be demonic. I realized it had to have been the “agreement” with all those false teachings, prophetic words given to me, the impartations by laying on of hands, etc. These are all open doors. And I firmly agree that there are other mediums such as you have mentioned, meditation is another, or as it has been come to be known in some circles as “soaking prayer”. At the bottom of all these practices is satan himself. When we step outside the guidelines of the bible for our worship, when we exchange conversational prayer to the Father as Christ taught and practiced, when we give over the prayer, reading and study, conforming ourselves to the teachings of the word for experience we give ourselves over to the demons who control those areas. These demons operate together through the power of familiar spirits and this is the reason why all the false prophetic words and concurring supernatural events seem to jibe together as truth.
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Yes, “soaking prayer” is the same as contemplative prayer which is the same as meditative prayer or meditation. I make note of this in the “Christ” in the New Age article under the “Christ Consciousness” section.
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I first heard about it when I was involved in the healing rooms. We did quite a bit of “worship” and “intercessory prayer” and in came this “soaking”. I didn’t quite get it but I knew others who held meetings for that purpose. They just play the music and sit or lay around listening. I have to think it’s probably something like the Hindu “becoming one with” – “Om”.
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anastasis,
In the West the collective thought is predominately one of explaining away all supernatural phenomena as being natural as opposed to Africa, for example, in which everything is seen as being supernatural. Correction is needed in both areas: the West needs to recognize the supernatural for what it is and the superstitious Africans need to recognize that some that things are simply natural.
anastasis, my question to you is this: given your position, how do you explain those who’ve made it out of the “movement” in comparison with those who are continuing in their attraction to “miracles, signs and wonders.” If I’m understanding you correctly, those in the “movement” are still under hypnotic power while those who left are not. What exactly prompted them to leave the “movement?” I would assume that the “hypnotizers” you mention above would not want anyone to come out of the the trance states they were put in as then they would no longer be under the control of the “hypnotizer.”
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Hi Craig,
Your question is an excellent one, but the way you’ve worded it suggests that you possibly misunderstand the way that mind control is used in these movements. It’s a bit more subtle than being the subject at a stage hypnotists performance. So I’ll start with a bit of an explanation before I answer your question.
Firstly, I am not aware of any examples of people being explicitly told or hypnotised to stay in a particular church or movement (other than possibly some non-christian cults which are off-topic for us). However, there is a lot of indirect manipulation used. You’ll hear phrases like “the power of God is moving in our church”, “our pastor has an anointing”, “we are more open to the work of God than any other church in the town” – anything to make people believe that their church is superior to the rest.
Specific examples include IHOP, who believe they have a special and unique calling, Bethel church, who say that they are where the supernatural is normal, and the Lakeland revival, which was billed as the “greatest healing revival ever”. It’s all marketing hype that plays on people’s longing to be part of something that God is doing and to validate their worldview that God does miracles. There’s also a desire amongst charismatic Christians to have their own “ministry” – if they attend the right church, conferences, or schools, perhaps if they are trained by someone with the right gifts, they too will be able to work miracles.
Secondly, meetings in these movements invariably have a hypnotic effect on the congregation. This results primarily through music, but also from preaching. It’s well known that trance states induce spiritual or religious experiences in the subject. There is a mind/body dissociation that takes place and makes people feel like they are encountering the divine. What exact “divine” depends on their belief system; Christians will typically perceive their experience as an encounter with God or the Holy Spirit.
Imagine you believe that Benny Hinn is a man with an anointing who can “impart” the Holy Spirit to people. You go to one of his “miracle crusades”, are hypnotised by the music and preaching, believe you’ve been healed and get called up onto the stage. There you are, next to someone you believe is the most incredible Christian on the earth today, who has just told a load of stories about how God has worked through him, and he’s about to lay hands on you. In that situation, your brain will generate an experience and you will inevitably fall over as a result of the hypnotic suggestion and pre-conditioning. It’s not even that you need to have faith, you know it’s true.
Another example is the people who invested money with Bernie Madoff. They didn’t think for one moment that they were putting their cash into a ponzi scheme – they were utterly convinced it was the real deal.
The point I’m trying to make is that the nature of deception is that you don’t realise that you’ve been deceived. You’re a victim of the perfect crime. The experiences that people have in the Pentecostal, charismatic, and word-of-faith movements are extremely powerful, and the key thing is that they are totally real to the people who have them.
Thirdly, these experiences can also be addictive. Again, it’s well know that trance states cause the body to release endorphins, natural painkillers that are similar in effect to opiate drugs. After something between a day and a week, the effect wears off and people need to go back to the church, conference, or revival meeting to get their next spiritual high.
So the control that exists is in the form of (1) manipulative language which persuades people to stay and (2) addictive experiences which create the impression that God is present.
The answer to why some stay and some leave is that everyone is different. Some people will be highly susceptible to the manipulation and false experiences, and they may get sucked in deeply. Others will be less vulnerable. Those who leave may come to a realisation that it’s false, they may just no longer relate to that form of faith, something may happen to make them question it, a friend may help them change their mind, they may see a video or hear a speaker, sometimes people just read their Bibles and realise that everything they’ve been taught is wrong. There’s no single answer, and for those who are heavily involved, it can be very difficult to get them to see sense. The same is true for people who’ve grown up in these movements – for them it’s the normal form of Christianity.
You are right in that the leaders don’t want their followers to leave. The leaders are often businessmen who want to make money, and the more people who come, the more money they make.
I hope that all makes sense – please ask if anything is unclear.
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I have spent a huge amount of my bible reading times in the gospels. People brought the sick, and the demon possessed to Jesus, and He healed them. I’m not saying I disagree with the belief that much of what we blame on the supernatural might originate from our minds. However, these were real demons that Jesus exercised out of people. Some of these manifestations in the supernatural have to be demonically induced. Don’t you think?
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Absolutely, see my earlier comment. 🙂
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anastasis,
I agree that there are those who are chasing this stuff by the way it is “packaged” and I’m well aware of endorphins — I used to run and get “runner’s high”. But, do you really believe this hypnotic effect accounts for all the manifestations? I never had any of these strange manifestations as a result of “runner’s high.” What about the manifestations that come about in the privacy of individual’s homes as some have reported?
I brought up Derren Brown a while back. Here’s a clip in which he “hypnotizes” a willing participant into a drunken state:
Notice how each time the participant “comes out” of his ‘drunken’ stupor it is after Brown touches him. [Disregard the interpolated section from 5:30 to 7:10.] Note in the 2nd part how the participant gets ‘falling down drunk’ in the library after he receives the word Brown provides him in the 1st part via phone text. This is after the participant is “cleared” or taken back out of his ‘hypnotic’ state by Brown.
Are you aware that Kundalini is passed by touch (a shaktiput); and, if one is well practiced, one can pass it by hand gestures, blowing, etc.? Are you aware that the manifestations that show up in many of these hyper-charismatic gatherings are identical to those of Kundalini practitioners? Are you aware that many in the East refer to Kundalini or its effects as emanating from “the Holy Spirit?”
Bottom line: do you really believe that ALL, or at least the very large majority of the goings-on at hyper-charismatic events can be explained by hypnotism?
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Hi Craig,
Long answer again, I’m afraid.
Manifestations result from trance, suggestion, manipulation, conditioning, and peer pressure. Endorphins are a secondary factor, producing pain relief and mild feelings of euphoria. It is the case that some forms of exercise can be hypnotic – anything that involves repetitive actions can produce a trance – you may refer to it as “hitting the zone” or something similar. So runners may experience some sort of altered state of consciousness in addition to an endorphin high. However, even if this does happen, you have a completely different context (you’re not going to interpret your experiences as spiritual) and there’s no controlling leader who is running the show. So runners are not going to behave like pentecostals!
Forgive me for saying this, but I do wonder if you are unfamiliar with the whole subject of trance. Trance states are a bit of a taboo in western society, and people tend to have a very limited understanding of them, based on media stereotypes. The reality is that, between sleeping and waking, there are numerous altered or alternate states of consciousness in which the mind behaves differently. The trance state a runner may experience is not the same as the trance state that a worshiper in a Pentecostal meeting may experience.
I can’t play the video you’ve embedded – I get a message saying it’s blocked on copyright grounds. However, from your description, it sounds like it is an example of what is known as a post-hypnotic suggestion. This is a standard hypnotic technique – you hypnotise someone and tell them that when something happens (the trigger), they will do something (the suggestion). You then bring them out of their trance, but the suggestion remains in their minds and can be triggered at some time in the future. It sounds like Derren Brown told his subject things like “When I touch you, you will stop being drunk” and “In a moment, you are going to wake up, but when you get this text message, you will behave like you’ve just drunk 10 beers”. Hypnotists have been doing similar things for years.
As I said before, many Pentecostal preachers do the same thing by telling the congregation stories of how the Holy Spirit came on people when they were prayed for and they fell down, shook, made animal noises, spoke in tongues, or were healed. This is basically giving the congregation suggestions as to what will happen later in the meeting. Many people will be in a trance-like state from the music and will receive these suggestions at a subconscious level, to be triggered during the “ministry time”. People in the Pentecostal/charismatic movements are exposed to this on a regular basis, and it has two conditioning effects. Firstly it becomes easier to experience trance with practice (and that experience becomes deeper), and secondly the power of the suggestions is increased by their repetition over a long period, reinforced by seeing people behave in the expected manner. It could even be considered to be a form of brainwashing.
It’s quite possible for a trance or altered state of consciousness to last for hours, possibly days, and for people to go in and out of it. Sometimes this can be triggered by small external factors. If trance becomes a regular part of your life, for example because you experience it every week at your church, maybe at midweek meetings as well, then it can even be the case that you are permanently in a mild trance. So I don’t think there’s anything unusual about people having manifestations outside of meetings. John Crowder is someone who is probably in a trance most of the time.
Consider IHOP. The people there have to spend time in the prayer room every day, where they sing worship music for hours and undoubtedly go into trance. They also have to regularly fast, which further encourages trance due to changes in blood sugar levels. Once you’ve been part of this for even a short time, say a couple of weeks, it will affect you. It would not surprise me at all if some IHOP people have frequent spiritual experiences or manifestations in all sorts of situations.
These principles apply generally, and can cause people to “manifest” in their homes. Even if this doesn’t result directly from trance, the post-hypnotic suggestion effect can also produce manifestations. We need to remember that everyone is slightly different, and they will not respond to hypnosis and trance in the same way. A hypnotist will work with his subjects individually to compensate for this, but that doesn’t happen in a group setting and so you will get a range of effects, from nothing to extreme. I do wonder if members of pentecostal or charismatic churches are particularly predisposed to trance and so are drawn to these movements. However, academics believe that trance is a basic human need that everyone has, and I see this as explaining why the contemporary style of worship has almost taken over the church.
[Incidentally, have a look at this, also from IHOP:
Link Removed
It’s probably the most hypnotic song that I’ve ever encountered, particularly the first part – you can see the effect it has on people.]
I am familiar with Kundalini and Shaktipat (in an academic sense, not practically). Again, I am reluctant to see them as anything more than social and psychological phenomena. Bearing in mind that these are practices associated with worshipers of false gods, why are we so keen to believe that there is any reality behind them? If we acknowledge the existence of a kundalini spirit, we are accepting a pagan worldview, which by definition is false.
The reason why there are similarities between the manifestations seen in eastern religions and charismatic Christianity is because they all result from the same source – the human brain. Some form of trance is found in all cultures and people-groups. It’s what’s called a “human universal” – something that is shared by everyone. The ability to enter a trance or altered state of consciousness is a product of the way the brain is wired, and so the effects of it are similar throughout the world.
The bottom line is yes, after careful study, I do believe that the vast majority of goings-on, in most if not all of the charismatic and Pentecostal movements (not just the hyper-charismatic extremes), have a rational and non-supernatural explanation. This is primarily psychological – hypnosis, altered states of consciousness, mind control, crowd manipulation, peer pressure, and social conditioning, but with an associated physiological component – the endorphin high – which produces pain relief and makes people think they’ve seen healed.
A fundamental belief of mine, which you may disagree with, is that things which have a natural explanation cannot be seen as supernatural, and that we must always look for the natural explanation first.
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I removed the link to the video as I cannot stand Misty Edwards. I know this song well and want nothing to do with ever hearing her voice again.
As to the rest of these comments, this boils back down to satan’s lap. He is the deceiver, the father of lies. No matter how it is packaged, humanistic, other religions, pagan, science, blah, blah, it is still satan. The control of the mind given over to another, and the ability to manipulate and control another person is the same to God as witchcraft. It is the ability to make someone believe a thing exists that does not. It is the ability to make some one believe a power exists to him that does not. I consider the scenario of Moses’ snakes and those of the warlock standing next to him.
Col. 2:8
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mkayla, I apologise for linking to the video. I agree with you that satan is the father of lies and the author of deception. But I don’t see demons fying around Bethel church making people manifest.
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anastasis, I appreciate the work and effort you have put into your comments. However, I prefer to follow the bible, which is clear, as I have stated, whatever this manipulation, is the work of Satan. Granted, there is much lying going on, much behind the scenes planning which makes these things seem like acts of God and are not. I wouldn’t doubt one bit the flat out lies coming out of Bethel and other organizations. They thrive on it. I understand the hypnotic effect of music. But for me it comes right back to the bible and that is where I get my truth from. I would like if we could put the conversation to rest.
No apology regarding the link is necessary. You had no way of knowing. I am at the place that I can barely stand to listen to any of them – whether it is music or speaking, all I hear are liars and manipulators, users and abusers, ya know?
Thanks be to the Lord God who brought us out, and granted us our sanity. His longsuffering towards me is astounding when I think of it! Again, thank you for your work. 🙂
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anastasis,
I’m certainly not as studied as you are on the subject of trance, hypnotismm, etc.; but, before I go on there are a few related questions I’ve posed a while back which you’ve not answered which I’ll rephrase: Why is it that hypnotism is not used in the court rooms any longer? Why do some individuals “remember” past lives? Could there possibly be a spiritual connection to this “remembering?”
I can see we are not going to agree on this. I stand on my conviction that while there is indeed psychological trickery involved in some of these meetings, there are also demonic goings-on. And, yes, I still maintain there can be a spiritual component to hypnotism as it, just like meditation/meditative prayer, provides an open door to the demonic. It’s one thing to experience a natural altered state brought about by natural activities such as the states of semi-consciousness preceding or following sleep. However, when controlled by others who have their own ulterior motives, you are as putty in their hands — at least potentially.
New Agers have stated that illicit drug use, especially the explicit mind-altering drugs such as LSD, is a doorway although they do not necessarily advocate it. And, again, having read enough Alice Bailey — which at times reads like the a photographic negative of the Bible — states that the “Spiritual Hierarchy” needs our help and approval in order to accept their “help.” The goal, clearly stated, is “soul-control.”
Yes, extreme fasting can lead to spiritual experiences. Without proper grounding and belief in the Jesus Christ of the Bible, one is opened up to the demonic in that way, too. It’s another doorway.
As to the Derren Brown video: you should see a “view on YouTube” hyperlink which should take you there. The user does not want embedding; however, WordPress automatically embeds YouTube videos; or, should I say does not just show a link itself but rather converting into what you see above.
To put in a little different perspective: think about Job who God allowed Satan to afflict. Surely, you would agree that the events in the Book of Job were supernatural events effected by Satan. Given that God allowed Satan to do the things he did to Job, why wouldn’t God allow Satan to do the things we see in hyper-charismatic gatherings?
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Craig,
I think hypnosis is not considered sufficiently reliable for use in courtroom evidence. It’s been proven that the brain can fabricate false memories, quite possibly including previous “lives” (look up recovered memory syndrome and false memory syndrome).
Let me pick up on your comments on fasting:
“Yes, extreme fasting can lead to spiritual experiences. Without proper grounding and belief in the Jesus Christ of the Bible, one is opened up to the demonic in that way, too. It’s another doorway”
Sorry, I have to disagree. Fasting affects your blood sugar levels, which affects your brain. It’s a known way of facilitating altered states of consciousness. Any experiences from fasting result from the neuro-physiological effects. There’s nothing spiritual about them – it’s simply your brain playing tricks on you.
Likewise with LSD – another way of altering your consciousness. Are you saying that people can become demonised by using psychoactive drugs? And don’t take the ramblings of new-agers seriously – I say again, the spritual views of pagans are just that – pagan, and Christians shouldn’t believe them.
Remember what I said earlier – throughout the world, altered states of consciousness are seen as an encounter with the divine. And when researchers compare how trance is understood in different countries and cultures, they find that everyone interprets their experience through the lens of their own religious worldview – it enables them to commune with their particular “god”. Some sort of trance is found within all religions, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, as well as the primitive ones. They all see it as spiritual but understand it according to their specific beliefs. And when atheists have trances, they don’t see them as spiritual. The conclusion, which I agree with, is that the trance or altered state of consciousness is a neutral and natural experience that results from the way our brains are wired and can be induced by well-known factors including music, dancing, chanting, meditation, sensory deprivation, drugs, etc. The meaning of the experience is superimposed by the subject’s belief system.
I tried to view Derren Brown directly in YouTube and still got the message that it was blocked on copyright grounds. It’s not that embedding is disabled – that produces a different message.
Regarding Job, yes, God can allow satan to do things, and in theory satan could afflict people in hyper-charismatic meetings. He could also afflict people in conservative evangelical meetings or anywhere else for that matter. What about Jehovah’s Witnesses? Lots of heresy there! What about people who go to raves or trance dance events? Why don’t demons afflict people when they’re asleep and their minds aren’t functioning? I just don’t see it happening, and I think it’s fundamentally the wrong approach to see demons everywhere. I see this as an expression of what I said three days ago, that we have a tendency to spiritualise things we don’t understand.
I think maybe the reason why we do disagree is that I have spent quite a bit of time studying these areas, and I have become convinced that the rational explanation is a perfect fit for almost everything we see, not just in the church, but in other religions and the secular world as well. But ultimately, I’m concerned about the truth, which is why I appreciate the chance to discuss these subjects with you.
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its all a set up:
for example one of my lot has put a posting up on facebook; a testimony about how a couple of people in a meeting I was at reportedly had gold dust appearing on their hands & wasn’t this a marvelous testimony of how we are all moving into a fabulous new place in God
.. others have commented along the lines of truly this is an amazing sign of Gods presence & power in our midst but.. what they dont know of course is that these people had been leaning hands & knees on the floor, the flakes were minimal, may be 2 or 3 flakes each & could very easily have been glitter from a previous children’s craft activity – left in the carpet & stuck to sticky hands… no verification of authenticity whatsoever, no validation sought, just eyewitness reporting from hungry “sign seekers” clinging on to the slightest thing… as evidence of the proof of God at work. the poster was not present at the meeting & so this is complete hearsay on their part
now this story is out there, blown out of proportion deliberately IMO for promotion of the wow factor…. thats Deception with subtle twist of spiritual superiority.. misleading all that come by that info to think more of it than the reality. Im annoyed at the outright dishonesty that such a thing could be said in a public domain with no verification – thats not fair or right or done with integrity is it..
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zazzy, there is no integrity to be found amongst these groups, no matter if their meetings are small or large, they are all deceived and are deceivers. I know of the gold dust craze and just missed it both times. Yes, I watched someone sitting next to me get all undone over one little sparkly something on the desk! And there is no telling them, they will not hear it because they are so caught up in the wow factor.
The blood of Jesus was poured out for our sins, something much more precious than glitter or gold dust, even if it were real. Yet, these followers don’t seem to know the difference! What are they thinking?
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zazzy, your discernment is commendable and I would encourage you to challenge the people concerned (but be prepared to lose some friends).
This is one of the reasons why I have major doubts about the fanciful claims of healing in the pentecostal world, including at Bethel. Taking a cautious approach is necessary to avoid being conned.
I’ve been talking a lot about hypnosis and I should mention that, if you are in a trance state, you will be open to suggestions and your perception of reality may be affected. So someone could point out a speck of dirt on your hand and say “look, gold” and you’ll end up believing that there is gold dust all over your hands. The bottom line, sadly, is trust no-one, and there are even times when you shouldn’t trust yourself.
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anastasis/all:
Here’s a video posted by heralding truth of Deborah Reed of Bethel who teaches elementary age children (rh top):
http://www.heraldingtruth.com/testing
Particular ‘highlights’: 3-4 year old kids “playing raising the dead;” Reed notes in her classes it was “chaos” [see 1 Cor 14:26-40]; “we take our kids to heaven.” Kids were instructed to “go through the ‘fire tunnels'” until they found their “prayer language.”
anastasis: so, is it your position this is because of some sort of hypnotic effect?
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I knew of Deborah Reed during my prophetic days at the Vineyard as they were beginning to meld with Bethel. I had absolutely no idea how far this had gone and since watching I am heart broken and angered at such an ability to deceive children in this way. I am quite shaken.
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Regarding the Deborah Reed video, some general points first:
1. We have no way of knowing if what she says is true, so it should be taken with caution. The track record is not good and it could contain lies and embellishment.
2. Children are highly impressionable and will often do what they are told, or imitate what they see their parents or other adults doing.
3. Some academics believe that we are born with a natural ability to experience altered states of consciousness on a regular basis, but this is gradually suppressed by societal conditioning during childhood and adolescence. In other words, children can be far more open to trances than adults.
4. Similarly, there has been research saying that children are easier to hypnotise than adults and make better hypnotic subjects, because they tend to be more suggestible and more imaginative.
5. Some types of trance state have been linked to speaking in tongues. But tongues can also be brought on by many other mechanisms.
Your question was “is it your position this [the goings-on amongst Bethel’s children] is because of some sort of hypnotic effect?”
The best answer I can give is that what Reed described can definitely be produced by manipulative practices, including trance-inducing techniques. She doesn’t go into details, so I can’t be more specific. The manipulation could have been via coercive talks, interactive activities, hypnotic music, or (most likely) a combination of factors.
What Reed described amongst the children is identical to what happens at the rest of Bethel. It is therefore likely that the same deceptive and manipulative methods are found throughout the church, including in their children’s work. This is obviously very sad. And people who grow up in this environment will regard it as normal – it will be very hard to break them out of this mindset.
I was just thinking that phrases like “we’ll start by singing some songs of praise and worship to prepare our hearts and focus our minds on the Lord” (or any variant thereof) could be taken to mean “we’ll put ourselves into an altered state of consciousness and have a religious experience”. The (false) practice is just as applicable for children as it is for adults.
The film “Marjoe” was mentioned earlier. There is another film, “Jesus Camp”, which dates from 2007 and is a documentary about the activities of Becky Fischer, who was formerly Rick Joyner’s children’s worker. It contains disturbing scenes of children being manipulated within the Pentecostal movement.
I would encourage people to view Jesus Camp. It may be an eye-opener as to what goes on in some groups. You can find it on YouTube – a user called “jeffersonvillamizar” has uploaded the whole film (in 8 parts) – there may be others as well. Or the DVD can be cheaply bought (eg from Amazon). mkayla, be warned, if you were upset by the Deborah Reed video, you will probably find this very distressing indeed. But please do watch it if you can.
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Agreed. This video was actually taken from the heralding truth link Craig put up for you.
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anastasis,
I’m sure I will not convince you that some of this stuff is of the demonic. I ask you to read this quote from Alice Bailey as this provides some of the goals of New Age/occult to infiltrate and attack the church from within:
Years ago I said that the war which may follow this one would be waged in the field of the world religions. Such a war will not work out, however, in a similar period of external carnage and blood; it will be fought largely with mental weapons and in the world of thought; it will involve also the emotional realm…
“The coming struggle will emerge within the churches themselves; it will also be precipitated by the enlightened elements who exist in fair numbers already, and are rapidly growing in strength through the impact of human necessity. The fight will then spread to thinking men and women everywhere who — in a protesting revolt — have denied orthodox churchianity and theology.” [Bailey, Externalisation of the Hierarchy pp 453-54]
“cheryl u” just brought up some goods over on my blog re: things that cannot be explained “in the natural.” I know someone personally who saw an individual roll UP the stairs in a WoF/hyper-charismatic church. THAT was her cue to leave that church!
And, here’s another quote:
The Christian church in its many branches can serve as a St. John the Baptist, as a voice crying in the wilderness, and as a nucleus through which world illumination may be accomplished…The church must show a wide tolerance, and teach no revolutionary doctrines or cling to any reactionary ideas. The church as a teaching factor should take the great basic doctrines and (shattering the old forms in which they are expressed and held) show their true and inner spiritual significance. The prime work of the church is to teach, and teach ceaselessly, preserving the outer appearance in order to reach the many who are accustomed to church usages. Teachers must be trained; Bible knowledge must be spread; the sacraments must be mystically interpreted, and the power of the church to heal must be demonstrated.” [Externalisation of the Hierarchy; pp 510-11]
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anastasis,
I do think you miss the point of some of my posts. I’m not saying altered states in and of themselves are spiritual necessarily; however, I am saying these altered states may open one up to the demonic.
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MKAYLA,
You’ve mentioned a letter that you wrote to everyone you were involved with in the Healing Rooms “ministry” which spells out the error in it’s teachings; but I’ve been unable to locate it on your site.Could you tell me where I can see a copy of that letter or would you mind posting it?
Thank you & may God bless us all with the truth!
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The things addressed in the letter have been posted as articles on the blog. If you let me know what you need specifically I can help you out with it.
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There’s nothing I need specifically. I just thought if your issues with the Healing Rooms were listed concisely in a letter, it would be a good reference to use while biblically testing the teachings for myself.
I’m realizing that I need to go back to basics to figure out what is true and what is error. Having come out of erroneous fundamentalist teachings and later WOF on the opposite end of the spectrum, I feel like a bit of a mess spiritually. I have been part of inner healing ministries and have lead people to break curses, etc, have been involved in Healing Rooms, my last church is affiliated with NAR, I bought into the whole Todd Bentley “revival” and believed every outlandish story I was told about miraculous healing, astral travel, levitation, instant weight loss, spontaneous hair growth, gold dust, feathers, gems, manifestations & on & on. “After all,” I reasoned, “if anyone lied about things like that, they’d go to hell!” What I failed to recognize is that maybe the stories weren’t lies; however, the signs themselves, although they might have in fact occurred, WERE lies FROM hell. Epiphany! Right now, it seems like every church I visit is a cult. But I’m smiling because I KNOW that my Father in Heaven gave me His Holy Spirit to lead me in ALL truth and He wants me & everyone to have a solid foundation.
“If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, Who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.” James 1:5
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You’re among friends who have been there! Glad our Lord showed you the way out of all that! Yay!
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Thank you all for a gold mine of information and discernment. I have learned more from this site than any other. I hope you all don’t mind me copying it all on my word pad so that I can print it all out and use it all to help others. I thank God in heaven for the love you all seem to have for the truth. The people I encounter every week at the Pregnancy Cnt. seem just the opposite—who loves and makes a lie—Rev. 22:15 However, I have found some that I can warn and speak truth to before I leave. Please, keep up this research.
On a final note, I was reading Crosswise (I think) on the effects of Kundalini, how it may even be a cause for fibromyalgia– (CFS). I personally need to find more information on this, being that I was diagnosed with it after I got into all the Word Faith heresies.
Just a thought. God bless you all in Jesus’ Name—–Your sister in Christ
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Hi.
I am aware of the possible connection between the manifestations and the Kundalini, serpent power of the Hindus. I would also consider Reiki (gaining notoriety and use in the medical world) and Chi to be equal possibilities. When I first read about Kundalini in 08 I shut down the article because I didn’t believe it was possible. But once I calmed and started to compare the information with the sensations I experienced and after having heard Todd Bentley claim he could feel the anointing in his back it began to seem more possible.
I would also be careful in connecting this with your fibromyalgia. Many people develop these symptoms but have never experienced eastern religion. The reason why I am giving this gentle warning is because so often in wof – healing rooms there is believed to be a root cause for disease. Just a thought back at ya! 🙂
If you think the info here is helpful to others, please feel free to use it. God be praised.
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this is what will happen when false signs & wonders kick in:
leaders will be saying this ( as indeed they already are):
“You cannot test signs , lets just enjoy the awe of God’s presence; you can only observe and see what it produces in people, so I say more gold dust please lord. It’s a heavenly wave saying I am here and I love you”
which means any manner of “mystical woo” experience will now be acceptable. the demonic manifestation will not be recognised for what it actually is… anything goes! so sadly there will be more weirdness, because a bit of Gold dust will be old hat & quite boring in time – people will want something different & more exciting – my prediction is that John crowder’s abilities for bi-location (astral travel), shape shifiting, (which is spiritually mutating into the form of an animal or some spirit – spiritism/shamanism/new age) of levitation & invisibility ( occultic) will move mainstream – all becoming commonplace & accepted practice in the bethelized churches’ expectation of what God will do in the Gloraaaay!
this is where its going people: out & out Occult in the church
do we want “stuff” ( & nonsense) or do we want purity of relationship with the King of Kings.?
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These have been some very interesting comments. I appreciate your willingness to post them, M’Kayla. The conversation between anastasis and Craig has clarified some of my own mental meanderings. I believe they are two sides of the same coin. At this point I think a lot of what I have seen in charismaniac meetings has been along the lines of trance/hypnosis and LOTS of peer pressure.
However, scripture is clear that demonic activity is real. Jesus cast a demon out of the boy who was ‘being thrown into the fire’ and the case of the demoniac living in the tombs, the girl who cried out as she followed Paul, ( what she said sounded so right!) etc. so it cannot be discounted as everything having a ‘natural’ explanation.
A gentle warning that to go too far into trying to figure out what is and is not the devil can be a long dark hallway of distraction. I’m not assuming to warn anyone in particular, just saying I took a secondary trip down that hallway as I was coming out of this movement. I am thinking of your readers who are fresh out of this mess. The question is a normal one as we come out of this stuff, and we should not be afraid to face it head on, just always let the study of scripture in order to learn about the One True God stay first priority in our studying.
Either way, whether it is natural, human tendencies, or demonic, it is idolatry if we start to run after it.
@zazzy….. everything you were told is oh too familiar.
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Thanks again Ruth!! 🙂
I believe it is important that we not go to the world to explain the things God already has in the bible, which are much more simple to understand. I feel your – long dark hallway of distraction – is quite profound as it is so easy for us to become caught up in figuring it all out only to find there is no end to that search. But all things have been given for our understanding
I am reminded of the scripture which states that we not think past what is written – 1 Corinthians 4:6 and the scripture I previously posted.
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Lee Anne:
I’m sorry you are afflicted with Fibromyalgia. I understand it’s very painful. Yes, I have an article on the CrossWise site which references a link to Kundalini syptoms and “emergencies” from a pro-Kundalini practitioner. However, as M’Kayla said, a person may develop Fibromyalgia without having been exposed to Kundalini. Similarly, those who have had a Kundalini arousal do not necessarily become afflicted with Fibromyalgia.
And, just a note of clarification (call it my anal-retentiveness) CFS is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome which is yet another possible outcome of Kundalini arousal. But, again, all CFS sufferers are not necessarily the victim of a Kundalini “emergency.”
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anastasis,
Here’s a testimony from Pastor Paul Gowdy was at the “Toronto Blessing”:
http://iftruthbeknown.wordpress.com/2010/10/16/the-toronto-deception/
Here’s a portion:
“…I became disconcerted by the prophetic words that came forth especially one by Carol Arnott in which she had her bride experience where she was taken into the very presence of Jesus and said that the love that she experienced was even better than sex! I was shocked in my spirit and thought how can one compare the love of God with sex? When we suspected that demons were running riot in our services John Arnott would teach that we should ask are they coming or going. If they are leaving then that is ok! John would defend the chaos by saying that we ought not be afraid of being deceived, if we have asked the Holy Spirit to come and fill us then how could Satan come and deceive us? This would make Satan very strong and God very weak! He said that we needed to have more faith in a Big God to protect us than in a Big Devil to deceive us. This sounded very convincing but was totally contrary to scripture for Jesus and Paul and Peter and John all warn us about the power of deceiving spirits and especially so in the last days. Again we did not love God enough to obey His Word and the result was that we opened ourselves up to lying spirits. May God have mercy upon us!
“Finally the penny dropped for me as I was rolling around one night ‘drunk in the Spirit’ as we would say. I started singing and as I rolled around the floor the Nursery Rhyme ‘Mary had a little lamb its fleece was white as snow.’ came to mind. I sang this in a mocking spirit and instantly my heart told me this was a demon. Instantly I repented and was in total shock. How could a demon get into me? Did I not love God? Was I not zealous for the things of God? Was I not nuts about Jesus? I knew that an unclean spirit had just manifested through me and I was guilty of great sin. After this experience I stayed away from TACF. I did not go back there any more. I did not possess the conviction to denounce the whole experience but thought that we where failing to pastor the Blessing well enough.”
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anastasis,
Here’s an excellent article by Sarah Leslie and Pastor Larry DeBruyn of Herescope who have firsthand knowledge of the sort of thing we’ve been talking about:
http://herescope.blogspot.com/2011/04/altered-states-different-gate.html
A snippet:
Dr. Erdmann details how Aldous Huxley (1894-1963) hoped for a “brainwashing” and/or “a pharmacological method of making people love their servitude” to a dictatorship, and began experimenting with mystical experiences and hallucinogens.[15] The mind-expanding potential of these experiences were seen as connected with a latent, untapped spiritual potential resident in the mind of man. Willis Harman began researching altering human consciousness as means to facilitate political change, especially through the shifting of values, including “bringing something like ‘person-changing technology’ into the educational system (e.g., meditation, hypnosis, sensitivity training, psychodrama, yoga, etc.”[16] [emphasis added]
Notice how hypnosis is right in there with meditation and yoga.
Harman is behind much of current New Age thinking and Huxley (Brave New World author), like Alice Bailey, is a “forerunner.”
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Craig and mkayla,
Thanks for the reminder that I may indeed still have some residual “root cause” ideas. Bear with me, God’s not finished with me yet!
God is definitely the only One who has all the answers, we don’t. I have to keep reminding myself to let my mind relax every so often and not try to figure everything out all at once. Reminds me of the bible verse?? about “simplicity in Christ” and not to think beyond what is written, and Rom.12:16 “Do not set your mind on high things, assoc. w/ the humble and not be wise in our own opinion”
I believe that in the WoF we truly believed we had it all figured out. I thought I had found the answer to all my problems. So humbling to realize I didn’t. The answers are only in God’s word —-IN CONTEXT, not in “omens” in the clouds, dreams, etc.
I used to attend revivals where the “preacher” would blow in our faces. The first time he blew in my face, I went out like a light, but was still conscious—does that make sense? Anyway, as time went on, I didn’t feel it as strong when he would do that. Perhaps because I became very observant when I would watch him blow on people and make a loud stomp with his foot at the same time. I think he noticed or sensed my dwindling response to him and he and my “pastor” became increasingly rude to me, even to the point of humiliating me in front of the entire congregation. My faith was put into question, my salvation, even my sanity. I could write a book. It was so painful. I would go home thinking something was terribly wrong with me. I would cry out to God and He would give me more discernment. I praise Him!!!
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Le Anne, I too have some “root issues”, so not that I’ve arrived or anything – hehe – like we used to say. We grew in the wrong direction and now we are growing in the right one. Kind of like Paul in Philippians 3:12!
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Craig,
I’m aware of who Paul Gowdy is, and I think it’s great that someone who was on the inside he has told the world that the “Toronto Blessing” was destructive.
But let’s look at the big picture. Gowdy said that his experience was demonic, but there are plenty of people who said that their experiences at Toronto were from God.
I’m very happy to dismiss the latter as the product of a deceived mind (a view I’m sure you and many others share), so equally I suspect that the former is dubious.
The Toronto Blessing was a highly emotional experience (maybe even mass hysteria) and the people who participated were undoubtedly in altered states of consciousness. So I’m not sure that any of them were in a position to come to objective conclusions about what was happening.
To my mind, the best way of understanding it is simply as a trance experience, with manipulation and peer pressure, which participants interpreted through their Christian worldview and therefore thought it was God or demons. Treating it as psychological not spiritual removes the subjective element and explains why some people did genuinely feel that it was from God and were indeed “blessed” by it.
However, that still means it has no place in the church and it is very wrong to describe it as a work of God.
Lee Ann,
The actions of revivalist preachers that you describe are standard manipulative / suggestive techniques designed to produce the falling-over response. The fact you remained conscious is quite normal. Likewise, people can become tolerant of them over time, so they have to become more extreme in order to work.
Similarly, it’s very common for those who don’t respond to be disparaged, often forced out of the church if they question it. I am sorry that you had to put up with such abuse.
It is a very interesting question as to whether the people who do these dreadful things know what they are doing. The film about Marjoe Gortner has been mentioned and it’s clear that he was fully aware that he was just manipulating people. I am sure that there are others like him. However, I also know that some preachers genuinely believe that they are ministering to people and they have become victims of a strong delusion that is widespread in some parts of the church.
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anastasis,
You wrote above addressing Lee Anne: However, I also know that some preachers genuinely believe that they are ministering to people and they have become victims of a strong delusion that is widespread in some parts of the church.
What do you believe is the ultimate source of this “strong delusion” of which you refer? If these preachers are genuine, would they be using hypnotism or mesmerism? Are you stating they are using hypnotism or mesmerism unwittingly? In any case, are still going to maintain that this power is somehow neutral?
I have to ask: Do you believe that Aaron’s rod literally was turned into a snake and that Pharoah’s wise men, sorcerors and/or magicians responded in kind turning his staff into a snake [Ex 7:8-13]? If so, which power was behind each of these? Would you have all the readers here believe that it was a figment of their collective imaginations via hypnotism or mesmerism? If you concede that it was a spirit other than God working through Pharoah’s magicians, why would you deny that possibility/capability/probability today?
Step back and ask yourself these questions imagining yourself in the mind of Satan (I’m not assuming you are him, of course), the father of lies, the great deceiver: Given that the people in the world are already dead in their trespasses/deception wouldn’t you want to go after those who are 1) not yet saved but attending church or otherwise seeking God; and 2) saved with the intent of making them totally or at least less effective?
What do you think of all the passages by the writers of the NT including Jesus’ own words who warned about deception by seducing spirits? Why did Paul write Ephesians 6:10-18? Especially v 12:
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realm [NIV 1984]
You, my friend, in your apparent unbelief in the power of Satan place yourself potentially in danger of deception from same. And, by attempting to explain away all as “natural” via hypnotism and/or fakery, you are playing right into Satan’s hands.
You mention Marjoe and how he admitted it was all fake. Do you think he would openly admit it was demonic if that were indeed any part of this? Why would you necessarily believe he is telling the whole truth when he was obviously deceiving folks before? I’m sure he was laughing that he not only made money off of gullible Christians and made a mockery of Christianity in the process but also that he made money from a documentary of same once he was tired of doing the circuit. And, I’m sure Satan himself is laughing…
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This is just a very small, but I believe very important example of the demonic possession in the church. It is not simple hypnosis or fakery and certainly nothing to take lightly. There are hundreds upon thousands of people (men, women and children) who have never truly been born again. They think they follow Jesus, but he/it is not the Christ.
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M’Kayla,
Yes, I’ve seen that one before. Anastasis, I don’t believe you can attribute that to anything but an unholy spirit.
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Anastasis, are you Plotinus?
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There was another incident where I went up for prayer by this revival preacher and told him I wanted to ask God to make me whole again physically. He asked if I had repented and called into question whether my husband was even saved because he was against their heresy. I was treated like the poor wife who had a heathenistic, unyoked marriage. They always played me against my husband for they knew where he stood spiritually and biblically (saved but against their hypocrisy). I couldn’t see it at the time and would come home on a mission to cast demons out of my husband, etc. etc. It was truly insane!!! I’m still amazed that my husband never gave up on me and continued to pray for me.
Anyway, the “preacher” then started to do a circular motion with his finger —-around my head, telling me that he seen demons swarming me like buzzards just waiting for the opportunity to zero in on me. At that moment, I can remember getting so physically sick that I began to go into dry heaves, thinking that I was going to throw up on his shoes! Then, my mouth flew wide open and I couldn’t shut it. I heard screams from those standing by watching me as if they were horrified by me. The “preacher” then said he was going to pull the demon out of my mouth, so he made the gestures to “pull it out”, blew on me as I went down, and acted like he seen the “unclean, foul spirit”, stomping it, binding it, etc. Then a group of ladies were all speaking in tongues around me telling me to speak out loud over and over that I was delivered in Jesus’ name, etc. I felt a heavy, crushing feeling all over my body and could barely move. I finally had the strength to sit up, but could not move my arms or legs for almost an hour. I was finally able to drive home, but all the way home I had severe thoughts of suicide that I had to fight through with Gods help all the way home.
This is a just the tip of the iceberg. I have to say I never completely recovered from all the physical symptoms until I left. In fact, the supposed fibromyalgia has been practically non-symptomatic since I left. It’s as if I am in remission!!
Perhaps it all just triggered the fibromyalgia symptoms, made them worse —I don’t know. Perhaps with more time, I will know. I’m just so thankful to be out of that mess. I no longer believe a true born again Christian can be inhabited by demons or be possessed. Jesus never cast a demon out of any of His disciples—did He?
I thank Him that I am “inhabited” by the Holy Spirit indwelling in me because I am His. However, I do believe I opened my self up to demonic oppression by allowing myself to get into an unbiblical practice. Oppression, not possession!!
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I believe you, like me, were under the influence of familiar spirits. We can see in the story how they were working together, the man spoke, you responded, those around joined in as if they knew what was taking place. I’ve seen this happen time and again as others in the group start getting words or images to support that which is being spoken. I also think because of his motioning around your head it is possible you were being hypnotized. I don’t say that often, but that finger around your head thing bothers me. Your situation was quite ugly! I believe it begins with oppression, but if we continue to forsake the truth, even unknowingly, eventually we will be overtaken, just as the scripture I put on today’s article.
I believe when we repent any demonic power in us has to leave. Christ is the head of all principality and power. This out of control idea of Christians having demons is just bogus, a way to gain fame and fortune and a tv show! Mind that I mean true Christians! I think of Mary Magdalene who had 7 demons. But once she came to Christ she was free of them. Judas obviously was filled with them because of his ultimate betrayal. Then – was it Peter – who was rebuked for speaking out against the things of the Lord, out of ignorance to the things that must be, but rebuked by the Lord just the same. But none of them walked with Christ and suddenly one day manifested a demon. No, not possible.
Mark 16:9
Now when He rose early on the first day of the week, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom He had cast seven demons.
Mark 8:33
But when He had turned around and looked at His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, “Get behind Me, Satan! For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”
Luke 22:3
Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve.
I’ve had people lay hands on me which produced some ugly things after the fact. One time in particular I was prayed for, slain, went down nice, like a feather. Nothing wrong. The next morning I was in the most foulest mood ever, angry, and could not figure it out. I have to wonder in situations like you described what exactly took place. Another time someone spoke a word over my nose – it was a little drippy, but I at that time I didn’t get why he was praying. Now I have nose bleeds. We say we can’t be possessed but what is with all the after effects – the falling, the weight, the inability to function normally for hours, the attitudes…? Not to mention the fact that these body movements sound a lot like those stories of possession in the bible. (I guess that’s the “hello pay attention point, huh?) And they just go from bad to worse, from light to heavy, from a little shaking to what seems like bolts of electricity. I’ve been slapped in the face by something, while praying – head down. There is demonic activity going on. Maybe it’s restrained until the Lord says “enough – go”.
Glad you are out, here with us and feeling better. God bless you my dear! xoxox
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hello folks, its Paul Gowdy here, Its a lot of reading but Ive tried to blaze thru the bulk of the blog. Although I agree with anastasis that it is wrong to see demons everywhere and that Charismatics tend to see all things as either demonic or angelic and that this is neither accurate nor helpfuI, I do think that Craig is correct in that spiritual deception is caused by spiritual deceit.
I am certainly convinced biblically that the demonic operates thru any philosophy , doctrine ( teaching) or practice that creates new paradigms or beliefs that are contrary to the teachings of holy scripture. That is why the bible calls them doctrines of demons. ( not doctrines of the manipulated mind!) The mind may well be manipulated to embrace these beliefs but at the source they are created/ unleashed by demons, according to scripture. The demonic fruit of Toronto is that it has pushed a complete shift from protestant biblical orthodoxy to some strange experiencial, floating hodge podge of doctrine.
So anastasis, to take confessing christians from a spiritual point A to a different spiritual point B is a spiritual work and not a natural one. As this shift has led multitudes from biblical truth to spiritual deceit ( and not the other way around) I am surprised that you resist the idea of it being demonic in nature. Satan is the father of lies and to keep things logical spiritual lies stem from a spiritual liar. I do believe it is healthy to not have deep understanding of satan or his secrets as to how the powers of darkness work. ( we even have a biblical warning of such knowledge in Rev.) but we also have a clear biblical teaching as to what is a work of the flesh what is a demonic spiritual doctrine and what is the fruit of the Holy Spirit. It is healthy to discern the difference. That said I do appreciate both of you folks and all who blog as the battle for truth is raging and it would seem to me there are too few that care enough to fight it.
Blessings in Christ to all of you, Paul.
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Thank you Paul. We appreciate the work you do, in the same. It is good to hear from those who witnessed Toronto, Kansas City Prophets, Brownsville Revival, etc. personally.
Blessings and peace in Christ to you – 🙂 and everyone! 🙂
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Thanks mkayla,
I have to say, I wish I had never taken my children there. God has had a lot of mercy on me. I’ve been that gullible woman 2 Tim. speaks of and was loaded down with sins of apostasy against my God. I was taken in by imposter’s, but their folly did become manifest.
You are right that there is demonic activity involved. Do you think you are still demonically oppressed—possessed?? With the nose bleeds and all—-I pray God has mercy and healing in His wings for you.
How could a demon actually possess someone who belongs to the Lord though? Do you think its just physically?
I believe God rescued me from my own ignorance as well as the demonic oppression. However, I realize if I continued practicing those things God could give me over to them, but I believe it is because He saved me, that the Holy Spirit guided me out and gave me discernment. Only God knows all the details. It’s enough to know He knows everything. What a comfort.
I need to rem. the bible vs. –“making our requests known to God”—-not man—but God—so the peace of Jesus Christ will guard our hearts and minds. I thank God that He doesn’t give us a spirit of fear, but of power (not heavy oppression) and a sound mind (not suicidal thoughts). Thank God for His word.
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Lee Anne,
Hi. I don’t think the demons are still with me and I don’t think they can be given biblical teaching. I could get off my rear and go to the doctor to see if I have an infection or something, huh? I just don’t want to bother with it. hehe. I still continue to believe when a person willingly follows other gods, which is the case in these places, they are subject to demonic possession. This is an area of needful study, don’t you think? Yes, we thank Him for His word and His longsuffering and mercy toward us.
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Thanks for the clarification. I’m thankful you are free now. I have to admit though, what you’ve written has really prodded my conscience. About 2 months ago, I allowed the director at the Preg. Cnt. and the others to pray over me, because she insisted. You know I’ve been trying to lay low there with all this for now—I thought—what do I do, make a scene right here and say no—don’t even touch me. At first, I said, “I don’t know”—she kept on. I realize why now. I became physically sick for a while after that and extremely nervous, with a return of hot flashes. Also, my van, which she wanted to pray about (because my air conditioning went out)—-started ending up in the shop. Our van even broke down on us while we were on vacation—-all after that prayer. Maybe it was just a high coincidence, but things didn’t get better until I repented to God for allowing them to pray over me to their “river” god.
All I know is that if they ever want to do that again I will flat out say noooo!! I may even have to come out and tell them to stop randomly putting their hands on me, which is so intrusive anyway. I know what they are doing. We were taught to randomly lay hands on those we felt were the enemy, so that their demons would be powerless against us. Crazy, huh? I’m so ashamed of all that.
Anyway, the manager is really acting strange now and buddying up with the director even more. I tried to e-mail her pastor (whom she had taken the info. to about the director being in the River and he will not respond). However, God is showing me one step at a time, that He is moving in the situation. I just have to be patient and continue to warn others, including my clients. Many are appalled by the apostasy now that I’m educating them on it. I realize that many just do not know. Thank you for helping me to get the truth to them. God Bless in Jesus our Savior—forever.
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trying to KNOW the WHOLE TRUTH….think I found it here.
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I’m afraid right now. Our church recently started this ‘soaking’ and announced this sunday that a team from CTF(formerly TACF) will be committing to this ‘soaking’. I’m part of the worship team on our church and also a youth leader but if this continues on I would like to break my affiliations with this church of 5 years. I never had that wow when I first saw the ‘Toronto Blessing’, I questioned it. Even when my friends started being wow’ed by IHOP, Jesus Culture, Bethel and such, I questioned it. Something just doesn’t feel right. Please pray for me and my church.
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Perhaps this has already been examined. Has anyone really looked at the scriptural connection of “Beth-el” from I Kings 12:25-32 and II Kings 23:15-19. These scriptures speak to the idolatrous nature of Beth-El and the reformation by Josiah, respectively. I have been studying these scriptures and other references because I am having an uneasy feeling about the church I attend that bears the name, “Beth-El.”Furthermore, Amos gives a sarcastic remark about Beth-el in Amos 4:4; and a warning against in Amos 5:5-6. I do not believe it is a coincidence, especially if idol worship exists in the church–not golden calves, but reverencing man rather than or higher than God. Please respond if I am overboard in my comment.
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Faithwalker, that is quite interesting! Maybe you would like to further share your findings with us. I’m a little jammed up with tons of other topics and a couple of huge projects, but would love to see what you come up with, and anyone else, of course. 🙂 We could start a new article for discussion. Let me know guys!
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The reason we have a counterfeit is because there is a genuine. With prayer and discernment, its easy to distinguish. Not all charismatics are occultic. The devil would lead people astray by not being so obvious about the methods used. So if the presence of God does manifest through certain gifts of the spirit, it would not be surprising that the devil might want to lure some away through false manifestations
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It’s great to see more people being saved out of this deception. I worked for the Elijah List for 7 years and know first hand knowledge of the greed and manipulation that goes on behind the scenes. I’d be happy to discuss. Click below to read my story.
Many blessings,
Kevin Kleint
http://www.honorofkings.org/elijahlist/
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Hello Kevin. Thanks! I came upon your work some time ago. It is a wonderful thing to witness people being restored to their first love in the true sense of the meaning. May God watch over you and use your willingness to help others find restoration in Him. 🙂
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M’Kayla this is Lawrence Jordan I reached out to you M’Kayla on facebook and that you left The NAR group and I invited you to all our ministries , you need Encouragment ,Love fellowship,and restoration , Amen , I can tell you Love Yeshua -Jesus and the Truth , a Real BEREAN 🙂 I sent you a Message on your Facebook to help you get into Sound doctrine Fellowship Saints ,
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Hello Lawrence. I appreciate your encouragement and concern. I do have people who are like minded to meet with and all that goes along with it. I will check out your watchman site as soon as I can. blessings to you
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Praise The Lord The Holy Spirit of Truth showed you The Truth about the False Prophetic movement, i read your blog today , AWESOME you are a Berean that searched the scriptures, TESTED the Spirits and Found them false -> 1Jo 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. Rev 2:2 “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; 1Th 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. Here is THE N.A.R. Movement in Scripture -> 2Th 2:9 The coming of the [lawless one] is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,2Th 2:10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
2Th 2:12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Mat 24:24 “For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 2Pe 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, [and] bring on themselves swift destruction. sister M’Kayla Father God is VERY Pleased with you for standing on The Rock and Truth, testing all things to his Word, sister you are not the only one that came out of this False movement, there is several Support groups , Ex-Nar helping each other back to Sound Doctrine Sound Faith of Jesus Christ, I am sending a Friend request to you , and do my best to help you get plugged in TRUE Brethern and here are a few Groups on face book that are exposing N.A.R. -The New Apostlic Refornmotion also Known as “Joels Army” -> NAR -“The New Apostolic Reformation” EXPOSING, INFORMING, ID NAR MINISTRIES https://www.facebook.com/groups/276907005676141/ and this one ->
JOEL’S ARMY & THE STRONG DELUSION – New Apostolic Reformation WATCH https://www.facebook.com/groups/179517478783280/ anhd this one is Well Grounded in the Word Saints -> Laymans Corner https://www.facebook.com/groups/105865559502826/ So By The Way sister Patricia -> https://www.facebook.com/theforerunnerband I really recommend you as friends a Very godly sister in Christ a (watchman on the wall) She came out of the Whole movement too, we Both have a Live Talk show on fridays called Watchman on The Wall , we are the Blowing The Trumpet as Father God tells us to, to Expose False Doctrines,herseies,false prophet’s just as brother Steve Lumer from Apostasty Watch does, infact He is my friend we minister alot alike , I come to his Pal talk room alot as HOLYFORCHRIST and share and confirm as he ministers TRUTH,
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I am in great need of any support group that can help my husband and myself get back to sound doctrine after leaving Bethel recently. My husband is discouraged and we both don’t know where to turn to. We would really love to have a good friend(s) right now as we feel so alone and are praying for real Christians in our lives right now. We live in Redding. Please contact me hooeofglory123@gmail.com
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Sorry I made a typing error on my email.
It is: hopeofglory123@gmail.com
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I would like to thank you SO much for sharing this article. Recently I have stumbled onto a small sister church to Bethel in my neighborhood. They keep pushing this “glory cloud” apparition. I would really like to hear what you have to say about that. I would love to talk with you more about it.
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David, anything you would like to discuss can be done here. I removed your FB ID for your own privacy as I didn’t think you would want that out there.
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Hello, M’Kayla! I found your post & blog from a friend on FB who was with Bethel. Would it be OK if I posted a link to this post on my FB page?
About 2 years ago, I went to a “pastor’s prayer meeting” at Bethel with a Charismatic friend. I went with an open mind, though I do not consider myself Charismatic.
After 1 1/2 hours, no one had prayed, nor had anyone shared anything from the Scriptures. Finally, “missionaries” who had been to Europe gave a testimony about gold dust. Other people then gave similar “testimonies” about feathers & an allegedly angelic voice on a P.A. system. Finally, they gathered in a circle and prayed for each other. Many gave Gifts of Knowledge and someone gave one for me, which has yet to be fulfilled.
I believe in Spiritual Gifts but the lack of prayer & Scripture at this private meeting — and abrogation of true missionary work — told me all I need to know about Bethel. And yet — your website here, with videos, showed me that the phenomena of the “emerging church” is so much more than I thought! Thanks for sharing your insights & experiences.
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Hi Robert.
You are welcome to share the link as you feel it will help others. Yes, the growth of this movement is quite large and growing by the minute. Still I hear stories of people coming out of it, which is a great answer to many prayers. Praise God.
Be well – and strengthened in Christ!
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Do you know anything about the “revivalartists” website dealing with “prophetic art”? I don’t think their directly associated with Bethel, but would it be okay to support the artists who make paintings or other fine art on the site?
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Hi Sam. Do you have a link to this site? I would say they are part of the false prophetic, highly supported at Bethel who teaches the “release of the creative power”. The paintings are often done during worship services, the belief being the person is a creator as is God. No, it is not a good thing to support them in any way. These teachings are not biblical.
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The cite works with artists from all around the country to “promote the kingdom of Jesus Christ”, and most of them don’t look like the kind of thing one would crank out at a worship service (i.e , not abstract, some still lifes, ..), and I think many of the artists genuinly are trying to spread the good news of Christ through art..
and 10% of every sale goes toward reputable ministries :
http://www.revivalartists.com/pages/supported-ministries
although I find IHOP somewhat questionable…
Here’s the link if you’re interested, it’s worth to take a browse through the gallery :
http://www.revivalartists.com/
Thanks for your time!
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Sam, if you would take a closer look at the teachings, you already have seen problems with IHOP, and with good reason, you will find out this has nothing to do with true worship of God. Instead the teaching states believers have the same creative power as God, which is the same lie Satan used in the garden. This subject has been talked about quite a bit here on my blog, as I came out of these teachings and set up the blog as a method to warn others of the apostasy. As for the link to the “ministries” they are every bit as dangerous. While I don’t have time to check them all out, Iris is part of Bethel, Heidi Baker is quite deceived. Even tho she does “good works” the jesus she speaks of is not the Messiah who died for her sins. There are many like this. So, I urge you to please take a closer look and ask the Lord to reveal the truth to you thru the use of scriptures alone.
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well as the original poster of this thread I thought Id post back & give you an update; the good news is that Im FREE….. the truth of my Lord Jesus Christ has indeed set me free… we left our church some months ago- the one I had been in since a child… that had become totally Bethelized…. let me tell you NOTHING BAD HAS HAPPENED TO ME… im not under fear or curses… IT was NOT A MISTAKE to leave… Im now in a solid Bible based, church.. praise God!
I realise now from the other side, just how truly sucked in I was… totally & utterly trapped…. in a pit of deception…
they didnt let us go easy, its been very difficult journey out… we were told we were being childish & had not been discipled properly… & were making a huge mistake…. the senior leader told us quite quite clearly that it was impossible for him to be deceived-as it says in scripture if it were possible that the elect would be deceived ( meaning he views himself as “the elect” it is therefore impossible for deception to have any thing on him) we were the ones deceived, pharissaical, legalist & too evangelical to accept the new thing that God was doing…
the new church we attend… well let me say they are very very keen to keep the personhood of Jesus in tact… no messing with his identity – its very very clearly stated again & again … the work of the Cross is central – how refreshing….. people ask permission to pray with each other rather than just boldly assuming.. tongues & interpretations & even prophetic singing occurs in the services but its all about Jesus & very scripturally based in content… its obvious there is a “culture of honour” in the way things are explained & how the “housekeeping” element of the church is managed… but the phrase COH is never used… there is no compulsion to tithe, each one gives as he feels able & led to… ( no guilt trips about robbing God or we need your money)
this church is growing & has seen a 25% increase in membership over 18 months… leaders respect each & flow together properly there is no false deference to one “top dog”
& I quote: “”being church is about bringing everyone on in together- not a “movement” for & of Leaders…””
just lovin life… right now, & clearly in a place of blessing….. the many years of “locust” are being restored…. please if you are still in GET OUT… the river is very poisonous – more than you realise… you have been lied to again & again to create a platform & pedestal for man… dont be fearful you are more than a conqueror through Christ Jesus who has come to give you life in abundance, & set the captive free.
Zazzy
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Wow Zazzy! Praise God for your testimony. I certainly appreciate it and I am sure others will too! Wonderful that you found a church, many are not able to. Blessings my sister – be well, and celebrate that freedom! 🙂
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I’m from Georgia and i went out to California with my brother in law and sister to attend a conference at Bethel in June of 2011 for a week and i felt just like you. My brother in law who is buying in to all this MESS was telling me to just open up to what they were doing and let it in. I was Shocked there were people running around laughing, acting drunk, after a so called FIRE TUNNEL experience. I was like WOW. This just all felt wrong to me, and at the time had me asking myself is there something wrong with me maybe(I can really see the appeal to some people)BUT ITS JUST NOT THE TRUTH. So when i got back i started to study on the Charismatic movement and came across the teachings of John MacArthur which was really helpful. People should definitely take a closer look into the scripture about whats going on over there and places like it.
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ALL I HAVE TO SAY IS MANY OF YOU THAT ARE MAKING POSTS ON THIS SITE WHICH ARE NEGATIVE ARE NOT FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT (BAPTIZED IN THE SPIRIT), ONCE
YOU RECEIVE IT YOU WILL SEE PLAINLY HOW AND WHY THESE SIGNS AND WONDERS OCCUR. PAUL MADE STATEMENTS AS SUCH TO WHERE HE DECLARES WHETHER THE GOSPEL IS PREACHED CORRECTLY OR NOT HE IS PLEASED AT LEAST IT IS BEING PREACHED. SO LETS NOT GET TOO POINTED ABOUT BROTHERS AND SISTERS SUPPOSED ERROR AND LET THE SPIRIT OF GOD DO HIS OWN CLEANING UP. YOUR POSITION IS TO KEEP YOURSELF FREE FROM CONDEMNATION AND JUDGMENT. AMEN!!!!!!!
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First of all, a believer does not have to be “baptized in the Holy Spirit” to understand that the teachings of Bethel are not written in the bible. Please show me where you are reading these things in the word of God.
Secondly, the context of Paul’s statement was not related to correct or incorrect doctrine both being accepted. There is only one Jesus, and unless the true message of the gospel is preached, He is not being preached either. Paul would never have put up with such bizarre claims in the name of the Lord.
If we are not supposed to be “pointed” how is it that we are expected to watch for false teachers and prophets and warn others?
I suggest that you do some serious research in the bible before you continue to defend a very false and deceptive man – Bill Johnson.
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RON on September 8, 2012 at 10:19 pm said:
“ALL I HAVE TO SAY IS MANY OF YOU THAT ARE MAKING POSTS ON THIS SITE WHICH ARE NEGATIVE ARE NOT FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT (BAPTIZED IN THE SPIRIT), ONCE
YOU RECEIVE IT YOU WILL SEE PLAINLY HOW AND WHY THESE SIGNS AND WONDERS OCCUR.”
First, the Holy Spirit of God is not an “it”.
Second, it is not our comments which are baptized in the Holy Spirit of God, but our persons…through the amazing atoning sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ, whose blood sets us free from the powers of sin and death.
Third, negative comments are often from God…in rebuke and correction. The same Paul that you wrote about tells us:
“Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage–with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine….” (2 Tim 4:2-3)
“He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it. For there are rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group. They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not teach–and that for the sake of dishonest gain. Even one of their own prophets has said, “Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy glutton.” This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith and will pay not attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of those who reject the truth.” (Titus 1: 9-14)
Would you consider it negative and not filled with “the spirit” when Peter rebuked Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5? God backed Peter up by the death of both. Acts 5 states that great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about the events.
I pray that you hold firmly to the trustworthy message AS IT HAS BEEN TAUGHT, which you will learn if you will come to God with humility and study His Word. Yes, God will separate out the goats from the sheep, and many people will cry out to Him on that day of all the great works which they did in His name….and He will reject them as evildoers whom He never knew.
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They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not teach–and that for the sake of dishonest gain…(Titus 1)
BTW, how much $ do Bill Johnson and his like make from all their books, CD’s, DVD’s, etc? My experience is that these people ALWAYS have a table at the back of the room with “stuff” for sale. The person who was attempting to indoctrine me into the healing room ministry kept “loaning” me all kinds of books and DVD’s from these people. She would call me and ask me what I thought of this person and that person, and I would answer back that I was studying my Bible. She finally told me, in exasperation, that I couldn’t “learn” about healing from reading the Bible.
Submit to God, resist people like this….and they will flee from you…just like their father, the devil.
A common theme to all those who claim special anointings and special knowledge is their desire to gain wealth or fame or both by selling it. Follow the money trail.
In the Healing Rooms, you don’t charge for services (although donations are taken). Patron donations don’t cover rent, heating, and other overhead (you are informed of this when you attend their training). M’kayla, correct me if this has changed, but the Healing Rooms charge a yearly fee to participate in the ministry. So, they make money yearly from every Healing Room in operation. The woman I know purchased a large number of books “wholesale” from the Healing Rooms to sell at her location. The money she made by selling these books was supposed to cover some of her expenses. Of course, she had to buy the books upfront, and the Healing Rooms made their money off her.
If you want to work your way up in these ministries, you need to attend various training sessions and watch various videos. The training sessions in my area cost $25 per person for a day. If you wanted the books to go with it, they had a table at the back of the room and were selling. None of this stuff is free…
The Bible tells us that God gives freely of His Holy Spirit, without partiality. The only book I ever received freely from a wo(l)f church or the healing rooms was a book on the importance of thithing 10%. That’s almost funny.
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This from the front page of Elijah’s List (from Steve Shultz):
“Also, would you do me a favor? Please help us keep sending you words by buying as many prophetic items as you are able to from the Elijah List at this link: http://www.elijahshopper.com. You might save a buck by buying it online through Amazon, but you’ll help us build the Kingdom more effectively if you buy things through us. Will you consider that “proposal”? Thank you for supporting us!”
Just wondering outloud if Shultz, or Johnson and company, have ever read 2 Kings 5? Naaman was healed of leprosy and wanted to give a “gift” to Elisha. Elisha’s response:
The prophet answered, “As surely as the LORD lives, whom I serve, I will not accept a thing.” And even though Naaman urged him, he refused. (2 Kings 5:16)
But, Elisha’s servant Gehazi disagreed with Elisha and took it upon himself to run after Namaan to “get something from him”. Listen to Elisha respond to Gehazi when he returned:
But Elisha said to him, “Was not my spirit with you when the man got down from his chariot to meet you? Is this the time to take money, or to accept clothes, olive groves, vineyards, flocks, herds, or menservants and maidservants? Naaman’s leprosy will cling to you and to your descentants forever.” Then Gehazi went from Elisha’s presence and he was leprous, as white as snow. (2 Kings 5:26-27)
The idea that a true prophet of God would not be able to keep sending people “words” unless they bought a bunch of stuff from him/her is an absolute joke. I went on to the “store” at “ibethel” (BJ’s website). GREED AND VANITY. That is the bottom line. We have God’s Word. Just how many books, cds, dvds, curriculums, etc, do we need? “All the tables are covered with vomit, and there is not a spot without filth.” (Isa 28:8)
Then I heard another voice from heaven say: “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues..” (Rev 18:4)
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I meant “descendants”…not descentants…Sorry, typing too fast.
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http://store.ibethel.org/p6531/shine-card
Bethel selling cards with an “illuminated” owl shining down on a city. New Age? Occult? They sell a lot of garbage, but this was just weird.
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http://store.ibethel.org/p5430/woman-card
Maybe the owl picture was tame…The caption under this pic states:
“I am a woman. I am a mother. I am the keeper and sustainer of life here on earth. Heaven stands in honor of my mission. No one else can carry my call. I am the daughter of Eve. Eve has been redeemed. I am the opposition of death. I am a woman.”
WOW! Yet, this is the “vomit” on the table of Bethel church under the leadership of BJ.
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It is becoming more evident what they truly stand for. Some will come out, others will be swept away, forever a part of the anti-Christ plan.
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but you’ll help us build the Kingdom more effectively if you buy things through us. Will you consider that “proposal”?
woa woa woa!!!!
the word of God says the “Kingdom of God is being Poured out…. ” we cannot therefore build shape or mould anything… the minute we do we would be building some other kingdom…
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WARNING – BILL JOHNSON and BETHEL CHURCH
by Andrew Strom
I am really hoping to make this the last of this type of article for
awhile. Some people think I “love” putting out this stuff. But I
honestly wish it would all go away, so we could get on with the
‘real’ work of building the kingdom.
However, Bill Johnson is doing such damage to the Body of Christ
around the world that I simply cannot stay silent. In New Zealand
(where I am currently) he holds a huge Conference once a year
called “Manifest Presence”. This is amost certainly the biggest
and most influential Christian conference in the whole country.
And likewise in other nations, such as UK, Australia, Singapore,
and many others. His influence is enormous.
Bill Johnson is a very charming man. He also emphasizes a
number of things that I heartily agree with – such as street
evangelism using the gifts of the Spirit, prophecy and healing
on the streets, etc. But the problem is that he endorses and
promotes an “anointing” exactly identical to the one that Todd
Bentley promotes. The “drunken glory”, fire-tunnel, laughing,
jerking, gold-dust, “Angel-mania”-type anointing that has done
such damage to the Charismatic movement around the world –
and in many cases reduced it to a shocking travesty of what it
once was. What would Derek Prince or Keith Green think of the
things these men are into – spiritual drunkenness, “portals”,
‘visualization’, spirit-travel, fire-tunnels, angel-orbs and the like?
(Found all the way through the New Age movement, but not in
the Bible).
Bill Johnson was one of the biggest supporters of the Lakeland
revival led by Todd Bentley. And even after the fiasco that it
became, he publicly endorsed Todd Bentley’s ministry again in
2011. But Bill does it all with such “down-to-earth” charm and
wise-sounding words – “how could this be deception?” That is
what makes him so dangerous.
His wife Beni is co-pastor with Bill of Bethel church in Redding,
California. And interestingly she is even more open about the
bizarre things that they are into. She even puts it in writing on
the Internet, for all the world to see.
For example, in her “Life and Wellness” blog on July 6 this year,
here is what she wrote in an entry called ‘Love Shack Time’:
“I was talking with Ray Hughes the other day and was telling him
about using a 528 HZ tuning fork as a prophetic act. Someone
told me that this tuning fork is called the tuning fork of LOVE…”
(Please note that crystals and tuning forks are used in NEW AGE
therapy – and have nothing to do with Christianity in any way).
Beni continued: “Recently I got up to speak at a meeting and
walked up to the song “Love Shack” by the B52’s. I was calling
people to more love. It was so fun.”
I guess we are now beginning to get a sense of the strange
spiritual world that these people inhabit. Another blog post that
Beni wrote about ‘WAKING UP ANGELS’ in March 2009 was
also very revealing:
“In the last couple of months, I personally have become more
aware of the angelic activity in this realm. One of those times
was when we were on a prayer trip to Arizona… One morning as
we were driving up over Tehachapi Pass and coming down into
the Mojave Desert, I began to feel angels. The closer we got,
the stronger the impression felt. I could see them everywhere!..
I announced this to the group and said, “We have got to stop!
We have to stop somewhere…” As we drove around a corner I
said, “I think that we are going to wake up some angels here…”
“We knew we were to turn around, get out of the RV and wake
up the angels. I wish I could convey to you the energy and the
quickness of how God was working. We jumped out of the RV,
I blew the shofar and rang the bell, and we yelled “WAKEY
WAKEY.” We got back into the RV and drove off. As we drove
off, hilarious laughter broke out! We were stunned at the speed
at which this all took place and were spinning from the adventure
and the angelic activity. What in the world had just happened?!
Heaven collided with earth. Woo hoo!!
“Since that time, there has been a stirring in me to awaken the
angels for use in this Kingdom reign that is upon us here on earth.
I have shared these two stories in other places and have done a
prophetic act of waking up the angels: having everybody cry out,
“WAKEY WAKEY!” I know it is strange but it is very effective…
One of our gals who enjoys God’s angels… gets pretty wacked
when they are around…”
The reference that Beni makes here to “Heaven colliding with
earth” is of course directly tied to Bill Johnson’s most famous
teaching on “When Heaven Invades Earth”. Clearly, this is the
kind of thing they mean when they use that phrase. So if we
get with their program so-to-speak, we too can go around
“waking up angels” and getting “pretty wacked” when these
‘angels’ are around.
I guess the obvious question is whether they are “serious” about
all this. Sadly, the answer is “Yes.” When you get so completely
deceived that you think “drunken glory” and ‘tuning forks’ and
getting “wacked” are normal Christian behaviour, you are open
to anything. Tragically, if we look at all that these people have
said and done now for years and years, we have to conclude that
one of Christendom’s biggest leaders (Bill Johnson) inhabits the
most bizarre quasi-spiritual universe that you can imagine. And
he is spreading this deceived foolishness in the Body of Christ
on a mass scale. It might seem almost “funny” if it wasn’t so
‘New Age’ serious.
One young lady named Johanna who had been a student for many
months at Bill Johnson’s ‘Bethel’ school wrote to me the following:
“In August 2008 I moved to Redding, California to attend Bethel
School of Supernatural Ministry (BSSM). I graduated in May
2009… Almost right away I began to question the bizarre behavior
that is so normal there.
“At Bethel, there are many sayings that are tossed around daily…
“God only has nice things to say,” “There´s no high like the Most
High.” There would be all kinds of distracting behavior (random
shouting, laughing, etc.) during school sessions and church
services. When any guest speaker came to school, students
would flock to the front to get as close to the speaker as possible.
We were taught that any anointing we wanted could be received
by simply “claiming it” for ourselves. Students would rush the
stage and the front of the sanctuary so the speakers could lay
hands on them.
“Among the guest speakers were Bob Jones, Heidi Baker,
Georgian and Winnie Banov, Randy Clark, John and Carol Arnott…
We also had regular sessions with Bill Johnson, Beni Johnson…
and other Bethel pastors. The drunken behavior and questionable
teachings from some, if not all, of these speakers was shocking
at times. I can safely say that I never heard the word “repentance”
once in any teaching.
“I remember when the Banovs came, the whole place was complete
chaos. When they touched someone, that person would jerk
violently or stumble around as if they were drunk. The Banovs
minister to people in trash dumps around the world… What I
remember them talking about was love, joy, bliss, and the new wine.
“Angels were often talked about. I remember Beni Johnson actually
took an RV across Arizona and New Mexico to wake up angels
that were supposedly sleeping. (Another one of the common
phrases, “Wakey wakey”). I would always hear people talking
about their encounters with angels and how they visited heaven.
One young woman I knew said she could see angels everywhere,
she talked to them all the time, and she would help her friends to
do the same… God becomes like Santa Claus. Without the
preaching of the true gospel, the fear of the Lord is lost.”
ANDREW AGAIN: As you can see from all these reports, the
ministry of Bill Johnson is highly suspect. Sadly, because the
deception is not as “obvious” as Todd Bentley, people are
charmed into thinking he’s “fine”. Charismatic leaders around
the world flock to his meetings and openly endorse his teachings.
For this reason I believe he is far more dangerous than Todd
Bentley ever was. The Bible says that in the last days will come
false teachers and “lying signs and wonders” to deceive if
possible the “very elect.” And what do we see today? New Age
practices and spirits are flooding the church. And it is men like
Bill Johnson that have become the “acceptable face” of this
invasion. Please, friends, steer well clear.
Please forward this email to anyone you feel may be in danger
from this deception. And please comment at our website below-
http://www.johnthebaptisttv.com/
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Reblogged this on DiscernIt.
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Thank you bloggers I am learning quite a lot (more) and I have already passed 3 score years and ten! Point one, I learned some time ago that many agents of the A/Christ spirit would be charming, charismatic well dressed and fairly good looking – except it seems Bentley & Rodney H.B. ! In the UK we have our Rev. Nicky Gumbel – co-author of the Alpha Course. He is so charming. Point two, I now know that the kundalini spirit can be awakened in anyone – usually unwittingly. This I think is quite scary and it is admitted by Hindu teachers that when out of control the side effects are bad & dangerous too. So my feelings are that many biblically ignorant so-called leaders are tapping into things they know nothing about, and spreading an unholy Spirit like a bad virus – transmission by touch, laying on of hands. Yet they self glorify saying God by Holy Spirit is doing a new thing. Yes, Satan and his cohorts are on the attack and very few seem aware. Only God’s Spirit of Holiness, into which we are baptized by Christ Jesus – is our safeguard in these perilous times.
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Comments on Bethel’s “glory dust”:. I have been in the middle of the “glory dust” as they call it. It is a plastic substance, gold colored, very tiny particles so small that they seem to “float in the air. Each particle is hexagonal shaped. I wondered for a long time if this was of God. Along with the “glory dust”, there are very tiny white feathers, like fine down feathers. People would grab them out of the air and take them home. Incidently, the dust at times was so thick in the air around me that it was difficult to breathe (I have a lung ailment). After months of wondering about its validity, a passage from Scripture came clear. When Jesus was asked “Show us a sign”. Jesus would not do anything to tittilate their fancies. He would not tickle their ears, nor their eyes. “An adulterous and sinful generation seeks after a sign,” He said the only sign they would get was Jonah’s, referring to his death and resurrection.
When someone caame to Jesus in humility with a genuine need (such as healing), Jesus was “all over it” (to use today’s vernacular). However, when people just wanted their eyes and ears tickled, Jesus, filled with the Holy, Holy, Holy Spirit, was incensed. That was an abomination to Him.
Today, in churches seeking these signs that do not meet clear needs, the seeking for these tittilating signs indicates that those churches are into spiritual adultery and sin. It is an abomination to the Beloved.
Today in churchess that are looking for thinbgs like gold colored plastic dust in the air
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I I have read ‘A escape from Bethel and the false prophetic’. Its so similar to what happened in our previous church ( yorkshire UK) We came out of that church 4 years ago, and have not looked back. Our church pastor at the time went to the US and came back telling us we had to all get with the ‘new thing’ and was all excited about it. The pastor said that he ‘saw’ that our church in the UK would be a centre of this ‘new thing’ teaching. Slowly but surley the teaching started to get a bit strange , we started having meetings of just soaking in ‘Gods presence’ .
One meeting the pastor asked all the congregation to stand facing the wall while he called healing angels into the room. My husband and I found this very strange but stupidly did as he asked, at the time we didn’t want to be the only ones not to do this….. ‘peer pressure’
The pastor had quite a few guest speakers from the US and hired big venues to house these Ryan Wyatt, Charlie Robinson, Todd bentley to name a few.
The guest speakers that came to our church were always talking about the ‘supernatural the ‘annointing’ Third heaven etc. Todd bentley loved the word ‘fire’ and was shouting it over everybody he prayed for in a conference that was put on by our church, it was quite disturbing .
I never heard them preach the Gospel or repentance, they did however have alot to say about money,( no supprise there). In another conference that our church hosted our pastor just lay on the floor laughing, no gospel message whatsoever!
Alot of other strange things happened in our previous church in the days following, some of the congregation said they had gold dust on their face (i never saw any by the way)
In one of the meetings some of the people in the church were hunting on the floor for diamonds which is just Crazy! Then Bill Johnson came onto the scene and his teaching was all the rage in our church our pastor even employed some students from the Bethel church.
Bill Johnson appeared different to the others Wakkos previously that came to speak before, he spoke intelligently and spoke some elements of truth. But looking back i see he was just more cunning and therefore more decieving than the others before him.
( Satan tells us nine truths to get us to believe that one lie, Quote by CS Lewis )
My Husband and i would not have any peace during our church meetings and warning bells did ring, but just when i felt like i had clarity that all this new teaching was not of God , i would later worry that it was just me who was not in line with the ‘new thing’ that ‘God’ was doing and i was in the wrong. I honestly couldn’t think clearly and felt like i was in a fog. But thankfully the fog did clear and that happened when i got stuck in the bible like never before asking for God to help me understand what was going on and why i was so confused.
God did answer me through his love, mercy and Grace and his truth in his word.
Ezekiel 12- Again a message came to me from the Lord- son of man, you live among the rebels who have eyes but refuse to see. They have ears but refuse to hear.
My husband and I came out of this church and repented of ever being a part of this false teaching.
We are still finding it difficult to find a church in our area that isn’t in some way involved or promoting Bill Johnsons teaching and Bethel and others from the same camp.
The church we are attending at the moment preaches the gospel and salvation and the doctorine seems so far quite sound, unfortunatley our previous church rent the church building we currently attend to host their Bill Johnson leaders meetings . So that is a big concern i have!
A big Bill johnson conference is being held in our town in February for Leaders, Martin smith from ex Delirious is involved with the worship…. it is a sell out. Sadly our town is gone Bill Johnson crazy!
Romans12:2
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, then you will be able to test and approve what Gods will for you which is good pleasing and perfect.
1 Peter 4.7 The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray.
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That was quite a journey Abagail, wasn’t it? I am glad that you two didn’t get caught up in the crazy false teaching and prophecy. There is hardly a sound church to be found these days and I do share in your concern where you are at now. It is only a matter of time. But then again, it seems we are going back to the early days of the church, when they hid in homes, in caves, held meeting in secret. But how many Christians throughout time did these as the norm? To us, in “free” countries it is quite a scare. It isn’t what we are used to, esp for those of us in America with it’s “Christian roots”. We clearly did not see this coming.
I appreciate your comment and the scriptures. It will be quite helpful to others along the way. Rejoice that you have been spared.
Joyous Peace in Christ!
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Oh Abigail my heart just breaks & rejoices at the same time with the serious awfulness of what is going on here in the UK & yet people are coming out… ( 2 this week from my old church)
Im the OP of the escape from Bethel & the false prophetic… & what i can say from my observations since I got out – things in the UK are getting worse.. many churches now are setting up their own versions of BSSM alongside leading their own people into all this mess. They are packaging it up & promoting schools of the prophetic… they are using all Bethels training manuals & copying the formula exactly… I think its so important we stand together
I would love to be in touch with you privately if you are in agreement.. Im sure mkayla can sort that out…
much love & many many thanks
Zazzy
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Thanks Zazzy that would be good. M’kayla can pass on my email to you.
I have been praying that God will show me other people that share the burden to warn others of the dangerous teaching in our church’s in the Uk . It really isn’t easy is it, as people just think you are just being negative.
Standing alone is never easy but i am confident that God is for me. 🙂
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Everything you mention is correct. Even the SOZO training is spreading all over the world. These leaders are loving it because they can promote all there teaching materials and be set for life. It’s all about money And becoming known so they can continue to profit. I would love for all of us to come together those that have left Bethel to support one another. Maybe we can have a central meeting place. Suggestions?
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As we get nearer, perhaps much nearer, to the emergence of the anti-Christ, so will Satan’s attack on the true church increase in tempo ~ where we have the greatest difficulty today in discernment is when a supposed teacher of God’s word (Logos) mixes this with pseudo-logon or in other words, exegesis mixed with eisegesis – aka ‘putting one’s own thoughts’ into teaching. Did Jesus not say “…insomuch that if it were possible they shall deceive the very elect” Hence ~ ‘yes, he seemed like a good sound teacher but somethings just made me feel uneasy..”‘ Just get away from it, as fast as you can ~ this web site is a blessing!
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mentation34 – Thank you! 🙂 And…I love what you said in regards to pseudo-logon. I was trying to think of that a few days ago in another conversation and I couldn’t pull it out of my brain. Then, here you come with it! 🙂
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If you can get hold of a copy of “Shadow of the Beast” by James Prasch – it’s all in there but might need patient reading (over 500 pages)
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Oh, yes, I have read that.LOL I also heard that mentioned in a video of his I watched a while back. 🙂
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This week in the (Bethel) BSSM school they were teaching the students that when attempting to heal someone, and that one is not healed, to NOT take the burden of the failed healing upon themselves, but rather to move on to the next one needing healing. When I heard this, it hurt. I am one who has been prayed for for healing at Bethel many, many times, with no apparent results. But I remembered Jesus, So many times it says He was moved with Compasssion and healed their sick. He never ever left one who was not healed—because they WERE healed. And then today I remembered Isaiah 57:1 “The righteous perish, and no one takes it to heart…” At Bethel, The righteous perish, and the people trained to “heal” are taught, as they were taught this week, not to take it to heart. It is so very sad!
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Anastasya, it is very sad. They don’t know the Savior. They are lost.
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Hi M’Kayla,
Would it be possible to be put in touch privately with Zazzy? The scenario sounds so similiar with what is going on at our church. My wife and I along with a few others have decided to stay until our annual church meeting to see what happens. Word has gotten out about the attack at the council meeting earlier in the week. I told people that my brother and I are willing to take the verbal abuse if they will stand alongside us. They don’t have to say anything, we just need them for support. They have all said they are too weak to take a public verbal attack.
Tom
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Wow, Tom. What will happen with these weak ones when the fire really gets turned up? I contacted Zazzy for you.
🙂
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mentation34 – While “putting one’s own thoughts” into their teaching, leaders like Bill Johnson also use a lot of phrases/terminology/mantras that don’t really make any sense. It gives them the appearance of being esoteric “ascended masters” because they’re supposedly receiving the “deep spiritual things of God.”
Followers are often too embarrassed to question it or admit that they don’t really get it because of wanting to be an ongoing member of the select “deep” crowd. So whenever one of these phrases gets tossed out in a conversation that I’m having with a WoF-believing friend, I’ve started to ask, “What do you mean by that?” And when they explain it, I admit that I’m confused and would like to know the scriptural basis so I can understand better. Normally there isn’t any biblical backup and often the scriptures actually prove quite the opposite of what was said and believed. This approach has begun to open some eyes, especially when it’s just the other person and myself – outside of a group scenario. People are freer to be honest and real when they don’t fear the “deep” crowd’s scorn.
For example I was having a phone conversation and the subject of “positive confession” and healing came up. So I asked, “What does that mean to you?” My friend explained that her pastor said OUR words have power and when we speak we should be careful to only say the positive things we want to happen (positive confession) or state that healing has already occurred (claim it). We’re not to mention sicknesses or negative outcomes, or we’ll stay sick and receive the negative things we don’t want to happen because of our lack of faith. She felt it was easily possible to accidentally put curses on other people, without realizing it, while “coming into agreement with the devil” by acknowledging their sickness or by saying something negative about them. So I asked the scriptural basis and was told that Jesus cursed the fig tree and it withered and she mentioned 3 John 2 about prospering and being in good health. My response was to ask another question, “So would your pastor ever say, ‘Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses’?” (1 Tim. 5:23) Her answer was an obvious, “No” and she realized that the Apostle Paul didn’t agree with the “positive confession” model she was taught
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4plumb, great addition to the discussion! Thanks!!!
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4plumb my old church was into positive statements only & you know what it has led to big big problems because no one absolutely, no one can be truly honest… the senior Leader cannot even be held to account because no one feels able to challenge him about his own very bad behaviour.. funny enough he didn’t stick to the positive only when he was trying to bring us into unity for asking valid questions about Bethel… this leads to a facade being built rather than a true church… I left it!
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4plumb…awesome! That will be helpful to remember down the road when talking to those I know in the wof.
Anastasya, One of the greatest ironies of the wof movement and all those in it is that it is their anointing if you get a healing (or even imagine one); but it is your lack of faith if you don’t. When the disciples couldn’t drive the demon out of the little boy, notice that Jesus told them that THEIR faith was too small to help the child, not the child’s faith or his father’s. (see Matthew 17)
How many souls have been needlessly discouraged in their faith from people like this? Instead of building them up in the LORD, they tear them apart. They will have to give answer for it.
But make no mistake, Anastasya, God hears every prayer you pray. He will answer you in His own way and in His own time. If He had healed you through Bethel, you may have been lost to their false teachings forever. I shudder to think of it. Praise God that He allows us to feel the sting of disappointment from false teachers. It serves a purpose to drive us away from them.
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Zazzy said Jan. 11th. “….my heart just breaks & rejoices at the same time with the serious awfulness of what is going on here in the UK & yet people are coming out…” I note all you say, my spirit is very troubled at the number of folk (small) who perceive the spirit of A/Christ at work in the churches, and who leave ~ then what ? A house group here, a couple of tries at other church fellowships, but little real satisfaction ! Dejection comes around us, no-one quite understands us, we’re critical, unloving and – all that tosh ! Is there any remedy ? My thoughts are on the lines of some sort of link-up (there is one such in the US for the remnant) for UK folk where we at least can stand by each other in prayer and offer support where needed – also share examples of ‘iffy’ church movements and fellowships (such as the ones already mentioned here) It would bless me to be able to share and put the case, as an example, on the lack of discernment in most of the Body of Christ, and how He – Jesus – still baptizes in the Holy Spirit ~ this is one of the essential gifts now critically missing today, though it is faked, parodied and corrupted (not actually possible of course, though you will know what I mean) T.B..B.H. and many more. Teach and believe for this and a door will open to sustain those of the remnant aka ‘wandering sheep’ All this I am saying to complement the work of doctrinally true and sound web sites such as this one ~ incidentally I live in the East Midlands UK and am an absolute ‘nobody’ – except a servant of the Lord !
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mentation34 –
I am so with you… leaving a church is so very very difficult especially when you have been in it along time over 30 + years in my case (infact all my life…0 its hard to come to the place of putting down everything you have invested in – especially in terms of precious relationships & everything you have worked hard in achieving in terms of serving that church practically over many many years.. & for me how I was regarded by most people – I held some responsibility for leadership .. but all of it had to be laid down because it was incredibly obvious that the involvement with Bethel was leading to a place where Jesus was no longer central… well in actual fact he no longer featured much at all… How could we stay?? it was heart rippingly devastating!
going to a new church is very hard too , always on the lookout for error, there are trust issues & of course there is always going to be some as no church is perfect. the level of relationship is not there – well how can it be it takes years for that level of depth to grow. The difference is startling.. Im an absolute nobody too. & all of these things somehow need to be worked through.. Like you, I feel no one understands- they really dont unless they have done this journey… our new leaders said they didnt have much of a problem with Bethel but they were not going to jump on board with fads.. I got the sense that they think we are “over reacting” –
& this sadly is how this particular deception works, from a distance, it all looks so wonderful – with healings & miracles & fabulous times of praise & worship, really indepth prophecy & words of knowledge… most Charismatic leaders have been hankering after this in fullness for more than 20 years now in the UK… so along comes something that looks like the move of God we have all been waiting for- the promised revival – so in we jump… Only by the time people begin to realise that there is something amiss, usually the leadership is so far down the “we’re partnering/aligning with Bethel (dressed up as being “of the Kingdom”) road it is faaaar too late for those leaders to do an about face. when they have sold their congregations down this River- many of the innocents & not well grounded in the Word- will be having a ball at this point… It is too big for many Leaders to admit to being deceived & leading the people into error- they be out of a position for one thing… so pride & arrogance have an awful lot to do with this too.. IMO
that & the fact that they really dont think it is even possible for them to be decieved – as my Leader told me!..
yes we must stand together & that is why we have set up a UK blog with m’kaylas blessing to provide info & support…specifically for the UK – the need is so great
rooftopsandrafters.wordpress.com
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My friend, you certainly don’t need my blessing to do this work! LOL 🙂
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if any of you who left bethel church would like to have face to face contact, i live in redding, and need real fellowship. please contact us at omega7alpha at yahoo dot com. thank you very much.
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There’s always Skype! 🙂
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mentation 34 – Could you please list the information for the remnant site in the US that you mentioned? I understand exactly what you’re talking about, as my husband and I still don’t attend services anywhere. He and I aren’t exactly on the same page concerning all of this and that makes it more difficult. When we first left the WoF fellowship we attended, all of the churches we visited seemed like cults to me. It’s been a struggle in my area to find a body of believers who are balanced biblically – all have been to one extreme (controlling fundamentalist, legalistic & don’t believe in spiritual gifts) or the other (controlling WoF, divine health & wealth, strange manifestations, no spirit testing.) Now I know what Jesus meant when he said, “However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?” I have been meeting periodically with some friends in their house church, but it’s a group who still holds to the WoF beliefs. God has been using me there to gently interject truth, here and there (all in His time.) But meanwhile, it would be helpful to have a “link up,” as you stated, to other’s who have seen the deception and have come out, plus to get some info. on groups who may be meeting together or can suggest sound bodies of believers . Thanks for any info. you can provide.
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http://www.radiofreechurch.com/jacob-prasch/?start=1&catid=jacob-prasch&slg=makshafut-witchcraft
Just watched this rather lengthy Jacob Prasch video today, but it describes our experiences with former fellowships that have slidden into apostasy and witchcraft point by point. I found it to be a very helpful and informative breakdown of the process… so as to spot it/avoid it moving forward. God intends for us to split/separate from these “movements”.
It’s funny because each time I left one of these false teaching churches, it was because of how I saw the sheep being treated – not because I discerned false doctrine. But when I prayed about leaving, both times the Lord lead me to this passage: “This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘Ask the priests what the law says: If a person carries consecrated meat in the fold of his garment, and that fold touches some bread or stew, some wine, oil or other food, does it become consecrated?’ The priests answered, ‘No.’ Then Haggai said, ‘If a person defiled by contact with a dead body touches one of these things, does it become defiled?’ ‘Yes,’ the priests replied, ‘it becomes defiled.’ Then Haggai said, ‘So it is with this people and this nation in my sight,’ declares the Lord. ‘Whatever they do and whatever they offer there is defiled.'” Haggai 2:11-14
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4plumb – so sorry not got back to you ~ no excuse really and will pass that info. on to you a.s.a.p. – it’s the International something or other, will check it out and speak to you shortly.
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4plumb ~ Jacob Prasch is certainly a powerful supporter of the remnant church of discerning believers, his web site is http://www.moriel.org and he does visit the US occasionally. I and a few friends join with others to hear his teaching in the UK – he is unique ! The web site I was referring to is as follows : http://www.ifcb.net – as far as I can ascertain the leader has “tag postings” under Anton Bosch on Discernit ~ whilst I am not too skilled on these matters I think you can find a number what I consider to be sound & informative articles etc. that he has written. Mind you what I believe to be good & sound writings and good ‘safe’ Christian believers of both the Christian faith and true disciples of Christ Jesus might not suit others – but I and my wife have found a strong consensus on this and associated web sites, so we must be on the right track, better still the “narrow way” !
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Abraham,
Thank you for the information. Here’s to the “narrow way”!
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Hi Everybody,
OK … I get it! I understand the “kundilini” aspect of these self-appointed apostolic and prophetic movments! HOWEVER, the Word of God explicitly speaks of the “Gifts of the Spirit” given to the Church for its’ “edification”. This includes those with the gifts of healings and miracles. Just because there’s charlatans in the Christian world (which, by the way, were in existence in the days of Paul), is there not room anymore for the “genuine” gifts of the Holy Ghost to operate through individuals on a daily basis to minister to the Body of Christ? Jesus Christ … the “same yesterday, TODAY, and forever”!
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Tim Snow, no one here is disagreeing with the FACT there are true spiritual gifts. But God does not bestow His gifts on those who teach or practice false doctrine. There is no exception.
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Concerning the very last comment: one verse has puzzled me: Eph 4:8 where it says He gave gifts to men was quoting Psalm 68:18. There it indicates the gifts are even given even to the rebellious. Purpose: “That the Yah Elohim would dwell there.”
But on another part of this, it has puzzled me why there seems to be more false than true, more pretend than genuine. Where are the genuine healers from HIM, for example. Maybe that is exactly where some of us need to fit in and become the genuine, of which there are so many frauds.
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TenderHearted, we see more false manifestations of gifts because one of two things is happening – they are faked, they are demonically inspired. I truly believe gifts still operate in the lives of people whose minds are stayed on Him. I have had this happen in my own life and in the lives of friends and family.
As for the two scriptures, they create a bit of a problem. As much as I don’t like to, I consulted a commentary. But because there is no clear explanation on why the two scriptures differ, I am going to leave it alone and urge you to deal with reading again the context in which they are both written. Psalm 68:18 addresses that it is the Lord who is receiving gifts from men, even the rebellious. Ephesians 4:8 is supposed to be that scripture quoted, except that it is worded that God is giving gifts to men. See the problem? I would think the scripture in Psalms deals more with gifts in the way of sacrifices; the scripture in Ephesians referring to the gift of salvation through Christ given to men. That chapter does deal with leadership gifts, which is different from the point addressed in my earlier comment, the topic being spiritual ones.
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Just to add that maybe there are readers out there who could give a better understanding of these two scriptures. I simply don’t have that kind of knowledge and don’t want to give an impression that I think I do. LOL
God bless you all. 🙂
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I am reminded of another verse: In Ps 68:18, the first part seems to be foretelling of Jesus’ going down while He was physically dead, and leading those who had been in “captivity captive”, and then in leading them up, receiving [translation difference: giving] gifts among men. But if you compare with Ephesians, it is not the “gifts of the Holy Spirit”, the 9-fold, or whatever number you are fond of, but rather this is specifically speaking of the “five-Fold”, which is different. These are people God gives to the Church to lead and guide it, rather than the gifts given to every Christian (here opinions differ with many saying “AFTER the Baptism of the Holy Spirit”:. Many differences of opinion I am trying to tip-toe around. The point simply being that there seem to be two classifications of gifts: the “9-fold”, and the “five-fold”, and Ps 68 and Eph 4:8-12 both seem to be speaking of the “five-fold” rather than the “9-fold”. This may be an important distinction.
But then the reason they are given: Ps 68 “That God [Yah Elohim] may dwell there”. Compared to Eph 4: 12- “For the work of the ministry (serving), for the building up of the body of Christ, till we all come in the unity of the faith …” v. 15: “But speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into … Christ.”. Are these possibly speaking the same thing in vastly different words?
The other verse it brings to mind is in Malachi 3:3 where it says He will purify the “sons of Levi”, so that they may offer unto Him offerings in righteousness.” He has definite purposes in these things, often VERY difficult to be seen by us here. In Malachi, I must be reminded of my own very difficult and painful diseases, and remember that at least one of His purposes for me is that I would offer sacrifices in righteousness unto Him {Sacrifices of Praise, and of Thanksgiving], which indeed are sacrifices when the trial is severe.
So May it be that Jesus brought us the five-fold to help the whole Church to mature in Christ? And in some sense did that while He was physically dead??
I hope the reasoning could be followed, as I gently tried to show a possible explanation in this very difficult group of passages.
Thank you
And God bless you!
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TenderHearted, that is interesting. Thank you for your contribution and I plan on looking into it some more. 🙂
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The other reason we see the faked so much is that false teachers and hirelings market themselves. Genuine followers of Christ just do His will and go on about their business, letting God have the glory in individual’s lives.
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Romans 11 v 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
God’s gift is free & perfect… & he doesn’t take it back… BUT we have the free will choice to remain submitted to him…
the context of the above verse is about the Jews having received everything in a heritage, promise, inheritance , legacy type of a way & yet when Jesus came – they (in the main) did not recognise him for who he was as the fulfillment of all those things… they had the gift & the calling but rejected it – instead, continuing in some other way through error, misunderstanding & deception… but God in his mercy extended that given promise & Inheritance to Gentiles… & this biblical concept links with that which is discussed above I think if we place the contexts side by side
the other thing we have to remember is that the demonic is showy- noisy & attention seeking- plenty of evidence for that going on in the mix – BUT that the Holy Spirit indwells: – with Love Joy peace Patience (longsuffering) kindness goodness faithfulness gentleness & self control – all of these things are not really measurable & do not obviously manifest in the space of “the meeting” – they are lifestyle attributes of the heart- which we adopt as faithful followers of HIs way…
so for some of us , ( me definately included) we can have a true encounter with God, but somehow be lead off track through error, misunderstanding, & deception… will God “call in” his gifts & calling – Nope! they can still be used- but are they remaining in him in submission because of our heart -??? through our own free will & choice to be of the spirit & not the flesh???
Deception kicks in when we fail to realise the shift in emphasis from it being all about HIM to being all about me.. then this leads to the false manifestation – with (virtually) no one realising… (or caring)
additionally, one of the problems I believe is looking for “evidence”… that is exactly how the church has been led off course – down the path of MORE & MORE because we are correlating or directly qualifying God’s presence – his ability to “move” & sometimes the amount of favour/blessing we actively receive based on how much “supernatural” is occurring in our midst.. This is not & never was the Yardstick though- so if we hold this “churchview” position we are deceived.
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TenderHearted, M’Kayla – agreed, interesting with slight variations of interpretation possible – after all we can’t be absolutely sure from where Paul was coming – but having said that I have written a few notes you can find at http://www.dividing-the-word-of-truth.blogspot.co.uk – please watch dots & dashes here !
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My wife and I would like to thank you for this information. And we would like you to be encouraged. The reason God allowed you to sit in that was for His purpose, that you may instruct others in detail concerning the nature of that error. Be of great courage sister, for God works all things out for the good of those that are called according to His purpose. May He use you tremendously towards liberating those that are trapped in that deception. Once again thank you…Grace and Peace…George and Lisa
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Sweet encouragement! Thank you!
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Your most welcome sister…<3
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M’Kayla, I found your site the other day and keep coming back for more. I am having trouble connecting to the heraldingtruth.com site, although I got there fine the other day. is it just me or is the link now broken?
Our church looks like it is heading the way of Bethel right now and I am quite concerned., I went through the whole Toronto thing and now I realize I do not want to do this again! I need good solid information. The pictures of the people on graves “sucking up the anointing” troubled me like nothing else has in a long time. But now I can’t find them.
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Hi Deb. I’m not sure what is going on with that blog. sucking up the anointing first got its start from passing on the mantles from the Elijah/Elisha story. Already we can see how Christ is removed when this is taught since His ascension from earth and the in dwelling of the Holy Spirit for all believers. I don’t know who started the gravesite sucking up…Benny Hinn at Kathryn Kuhlman’s; Cal Pierce at John G Lake’s; John Crowder at Alexander John Dowie; and of course Bethel is in on it. Bethel has roots in word of faith teaching and is friends with all the aforementioned, the living ones, at least. We know God never gave a direction for a believer, OT or NT to do such a thing. Praying to the dead is a big no-no. BUT these men and woman who believe God directed them to suck up at the graves don’t get their true direction from The Lord and they certainly do not read their bibles.
Let me know how I can help you. We have a lot of discussion about Bethel here.
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Deb, here’s a link to John Crowder sucking up from Dowie. Crowder is friends with BJ which we get into a bit in the comments.
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Deb, I put up a link to another blog which shows the pics of people “sucking up the anointing” in that same comment section.
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M’Kayla, I’m thinking that this fire tunnel is that as referred to in: Deuteronomy 18:10
“There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.” – which is a “revival” of paganism.
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“WE ARE BLINDED BY PROSPERITY MATERIALISM THE ENEMY USES PROSPERITY TO BLIND US”. Quote from Lonnie Frisbee as he made his famous mothers day service at Calvary Chapel Yorba Linda It is included in the last of five parts. the first two part have been available for a long time one can purchase the cd. The last parts surfaced recently. But today the Anaheim Vineyard is DEEP in the Lie of the Prosperity Gospel VIA Bill Johnson and his church Bethel. ASK anyone today in the Vineyard if Lonnie Spoke for God and they will answer of course he was very influential to the movement at the DNA level of Calvary Chapel and the Vineyard is one man LONNIE RAY FRISBEE. SO WHY DO THEY GO CHASING AFTER GOLD AND OTHER gods?
I try o point out the irony of the fact that many people at Bethel and other false prophets churches many people are Frisbee fans and can be seen with the NEw Lonnie Frisbee Book. The frisbee family are celebrities there.
SO WHY DONT THEY HEED THE WARNING OF THIER HERO LONNIE FRISBEE?
FOR THE SAME REASON THEY IGNORE THE WARNINGS OF THE WRITTEN WORD”
Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy” (1 Tim 6:17) D OF GOD.
Jesus warned, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions” (Luke 12:15). “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal… You cannot serve both God and money” (Matthew 6:19 and 24). Did Jesus pursue the acquisition of money? No. On the contrary, He became poor for our sake (2 Corinthians 8:9) and had “no place to lay his head” (Matthew 8:20). The only disciple concerned with wealth was the embezzler Judas, who betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver.
Greed and a desire for riches are traps that bring ruin and destruction. “The love of money is a root of all kinds of evil,” and Christians are warned, “Do not put your trust in wealth” (1 Timothy 6:9-10, 17-18). Covetousness, or wanting more than we have, is idolatry. “For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person – such a man is an idolater – has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God” (Ephesians 5:5). The principle to remember is contained in Hebrews 13:5: “Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, ‘Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.’”
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-greed.html#ixzz2OcAtG6KL
Thirty Years ago. Lonnie Frisbee was let off his short leash, just long enough for him tom speak on Mother’s Day 1980. John Wimber invited him to speak. After that Day many people left the Church and many were inspired to evangelize Orange County others were imparted with the Holy Spirit. I listen to that Message many times. Every time I hear something different. This time what stuck with me were Lonnie’s words words:” We considered the Great commission to be UP TO US, AS IF IT WERE UP TO US!!!! Then He said:” Beware of the prosperity Gospel! Materialism! THIS TIME IT WAS AVAILABILITY.
And after twenty years since Lonnie went to glory THE prosperity GOSPEL is prevalent and IN THE VINEYARD, BETHEL and beyond. Lonnie Frisbee’s FAMILY is lost in that GOSPEL.
Why?
Because people want experience and IF BETHEL has feel good experiences and PROSPERITY why not!!!! Who cares what Bill Johnson is cramming in our souls?
And Bill Johnson learned more than the Prosperity Gospel from Ken Copeland and et al. He learned how to teach preach the new Gospel without being blatantly obvious as Ken Copeland and Benny hinn did. That got them into trouble and we had to confront them and they repented for a while. Then they realized its better to NOT look into the camera and Say things like WE ARE LITTLE GODS.
But the message is the same. A born again Jesus that had to suffer in Hell for our sins because His shed blood did not atone. And we can create with our words and that God needs a human with authority to RELEASE God to work.
And we can collect the anointing from dead bodies and from each other.
We can’t.
So I rant and rant and rant.
LONNIE SAID IT IM SAYING IT AND I DON’T CARE WHAT MEN THINK OR DO TO ME. JESUS IS LORD. BEWARE OF THE PROSPERITY GOSPEL AND THE OLD COVENANT!
xGreg Smith,
Many don’t think that Bill Johnson really teaches the so-called “prosperity gospel”, yet he does. Here’s a quote from one of his books:
“…Jesus destroyed the power of sin, sickness, and poverty through His redemptive work on the cross. In Adam and Eve’s commission to subdue the earth, they were without sickness, poverty, and sin. Now that we are restored to His original purpose, should we expect anything less? After all, this is the better covenant!” [When Heaven Invades Earth, 2003, Treasure House/Destiny Image, Shippensburg, PA; p 33]
However, just like not coming right out and saying “We are little gods”, Johnson knows that he cannot outright claim that Jesus died spiritually, went to hell, etc. like Hagin, Copeland, and others before him; so, he’s much more careful. Instead, he comes right up to the line, so to speak, but doesn’t state these things explicitly. Yet, they are implicit in other things he writes and teaches. Not so much the JDS heresy, but that we can receive the same “Christ anointing” as Jesus by receiving the ‘baptism in the Holy Spirit’ – the same “Christ anointing” that “linked Jesus, the man, to the divine” [When Heaven Invades Earth, p 79].
I just attended Bethel Church in Redding California. It’s pastor, Bill Johnson is a big proponent of works of faith. His books have been widely circulated though our church, probably his most famous is The Supernatural Power of the Transformed Mind. The church has a very dynamic worship service, exciting preaching and it is a very upbeat and popular place. The one thing that messed with my head though was the Offering of Thanks that they “prayed” when they received the offering. And here when I say pray here, I mean chant. And the words, dutifully supplied by their Website went like this;
“As we receive today’s offering we are believing the Lord for:
Jobs and better jobs,
Raises and bonuses
Benefits Sales and commissions
Favorable settlements
Estates and inheritances
Interests and income
Rebates and returns
Checks in the mail
Gifts and surprises
Finding money
Debts paid off
Expenses decrease
Blessing and increase
Thank You, Lord, for meeting all of my financial needs that I may have more than enough to give into the Kingdom of God and promote the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Hallelujah!!!!!!”
The six exclamations points are exactly how the people in the congregation yelled it out. To be honest I was a little horrified by the whole exercise. Don’t get me wrong, I do not disagree that God has given some promises in the Bible to provide for us. Even one of his names is Jehovah-Jireh, “the Lord will provide.” But I also am aware that it is only one of his names. Others include “the Righteous one,” “the Lord of Hosts”, “Judge”, “the Lord who heals” etc. Also, it does not really come across as a prayer of thanks, but more like a list of demands.
LISTEN TO
LONNIE WARN THE VINEYARD ABOUT THE PROSPERITY GOSPEL HERE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If_oBfiLAuA&feature=endscreen
The Spirit comes: Mothers Day 1980
http://www.youtube.com
John Wimber tells what happened when Lonnie Frisbee asked the Holy Spirit to come on Mother’s Day in 1980. The resulting outpouring of the Spirit proved to b…
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False teachers rise up and create offspring. There is so much WRONG in this 10 minute John Wimber video! But they measure their experiences by what is already false. You see how “God told him to let Lonnie preach”? By the word of God, would Lonnie qualify as a preacher? No. He would not. But the voice leading Wimber is what Wimber follows even tho his own gut reaction is NO WAY MAN! Per Lonnie, “Holy Spirit Come”, whoosh, everyone falls. (A bit Benny Hinnish but we won’t elaborate.) Wimber cannot find “Holy Spirit Come” in the bible. (Neither could I back in the day.) He searched all night, yet it cannot be found. This is God telling Wimber the spirit that Lonnie brought was not of Him. Plain and simple. Wimber is not satisified, so instead pushes the issue until he finds some things in the bible that “kinda-sorta fits” and he is done, contented that it probably is God. This is what I found in the false prophetic, something can always be found that kinda fits! What did he say, that there were SOME examples of people falling in the bible. Yes, but under very different circumstances. God does not knock people to the floor to bring His truth. He does not shove bare legged woman to sprawl out in need of “modesty cover”. And all of that is in the word of God too. When the Lord spoke, men fell in fear, who were told to stand, given strength to stand, and then the message was given, usually by an angel. That is how the Most High God deals with those He loves.
The people listening to Wimber are so entertained, and so busy laughing that I doubt many of them ever asked what was wrong in that picture. Star-struck. Here is a little truth mixed in with a big fat lie.
Lonnie Frisbee, from what I have read and have been told was instrumental in the Jesus Movement days. I’ve seen videos of him with Chuck Smith and Kathryn Kuhlmann as well. Its like they were fighting over who “gets” Lonnie. I had a conversation with someone at the Vineyard who knew him personally. He had some truth in him. But there was also great error that I will not go into here. This is where again we see following man, and not the word of God gets us into messes. The most saddest thing, is that here we had young followers of Christ, new converts and no real teacher to guide them. And like the word says, both are blind, both go into the ditch. I saw a lot of that then. I was young, but I/we, as the youth, didn’t miss a thing in the error.
Bill Johnson is a part of great heresy. He is not afraid to speak it out loud. He has a gift to draw people in, a very dangerous gift indeed. And when they cannot be drawn he has an uncanny way of leaning against his podium, with expression, with well crafted words to make people feel absolutely stupid for not agreeing with him. I’ve never seen anything like it.
God sees.
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I agree with your thoughts on Wimber. And I understand and KNOW all about Lonnies failures and his Unqualified status. I knew Lonnie from the streets of Laguna before I got saved he partied at the gay bars and parties sat and preached sunday, and I know his brother. Im in the fellowship of original Jesus people that grew up under chuck smith and Lonnie. David Was a Murderer and an adulterer yet he is a man after God own heart. Im not qualified to serve, but I look at a clown like Lonnie and see that God just might be able to use me. Yes there was error and strange manifestations and Benny Hinn style Hypnosis at times. But if NOT for Lonnie Frisbee I would probably be in Hell. Greg Laurie was the one that really spoke to me. And Lonnie was the one that Greg modeled himself after. When Lonnie went out he was the one that could and WOULD walk the beaches parks and highways and by ways and he brought in EVERY pastor teacher we are fortunate to learn from. He may have been the foolish babe that the Lord wanted to use to confound the wise and to make sure no one could say the Jesus People movement was a movement of scholars and educated religious men with degrees and honors. My pastor Oden Fong tells stories of the old days in Laguna Beach when Oden would have parties and witches , Hare Krishna devotes and Hindus would be there and Lonnie would drop by and temple devotes would drop their religion and go to church. Oden said Lonnie could not really read or write but he would get up and open his mouth and God would give him words. Could you evangelize the Pagans and occultists that were in Laguna canyon at that time? Could Chuck Smith? No Chuck was ready to drop the MInister thing and go into medicine. But he and Kay would sit and pray for the hippies walking around Laguna Beach. If you look into the history Lonnie was used to bring the young people into the Church and THEY brought their parents. I know that after Lonnie grew the Church he became hyperpenticostal and out of hand. Smith sent him to africa on Faith, he went wrong after that and got mixed up in the shepherding movement. I think Calvary Chapel had him on a short leash for a reason. And I think Wimber USED and abused Lonnie worse than Smith did. I always wonder what would have happened if anyone at CCCM had ministered to Lonnie and connie in their marriage and guided Lonnie into the Word and out of his gay sexual struggle he may not have contracted AIDS. And he may have gotten over his sampson phase. He ended up at set free a biker church where he brought his entire family to the lord. Lonnie was no saint but he was sincere. He was a broken man from childhood sexual abuse and neglect. Smith saw something in Lonnie and allowed him to be used and this opened the door for drugged out hippies and stinky bums to come and find restoration and regain a sound mind. I just saw Mike Macintosh give his testimony and if not for Lonnie bringing him to jesus he would have died in mental hospital, but now he is a very popular pastor. Im not a Lonnie devote as MANY are now that his autobiography is out. I see people idolizing Lonnie Frisbee when they should be Honoring and praising God for raising up a homeless hippy throwaway kid and using him to reach the rest of em. After that I think God wanted Smith to go forward with the Word he teaches, Lonnie was used to bring in the people that God wanted to diciple under Smith. And THANK GOD FOR THAT! If not i may be under the spell of Bill Johnson. I was warned in 1990 NEVER to Go to the Anaheim Vineyard at CCCM. So thats how I heard of that place, I went to see for myself and got captivated by John Wimber. Wimber used Lonnie and tossed him like Smith did and Lonnies real father did.
I learned a lot at Vineyard I gravitated towards the Calvary chapel refugees like myself. because as soon as my Calvary Brothers heard I was going there I was out of fellowship at CCCM.
But I went to other churches and stayed in the Word via Tapes and radio KWAVE.
What did I learn? That we need a Balance. too much of the Word only and we Dry up, too much Of the Spirit and we Blow up. When we have a healthy balance we grow up.
I know that MUCH of the ministry I got was soulish and fleshly a lot of hype. The shakers and quakers came and left, the tourists with cameras are there no more. I stayed because I was being used I never partook of the laughing or the barking stuff. Wimber died and it went to hell.
But I know that I never would have seen the Miracles and healings ( i broke my neck 20 years ago) one night I encountered the Living Lord and my neck popped and my nerves went into place, the biones are still broken but the pain is gone and I take for granted that I can work and play like never before, and i saw Prophecy that IS REAL. One has to run a gauntlet of silliness and prideful charismania. But if I was at Calvary Chapel where the spirit is quenched I never would have been able to see the difference of soulish ministry and the Spirit of God moving and comforting edifying and meeting me right where I was. No bad false spiritual things can happen at CCCM AND no good things of the Spirit can move either.
I am really happy to be back in THE WORD and worship and fellowship with born again believers right were I started off. But with Oden I get the Truth in Love and the Holy Spirit is allowed to move but IN ORDER and in Biblical manner. Oden Loves the Fact that I got kicked out of Calvary and found my way back. And that I learned to see through the false people and eat the meat and spit out the bones. Well Now that Ive spoken out and sent letters to all my pastors and leaders. Im exciled back to Calvary. But thats okay Im not of Lonnie or Wimber or Smith not even Of Oden. Im of Jesus and I found Him even at Vineyard. But its true the occult has been allowed to creep in the Vineyard. I was away for a long time until New Song Irvine became bethelized. So I found a prayer group at VCF I walked into a hindu meditation session. It was only five people so I over looked it. But I noticed the people changed and people from bethel started dominating our kinships and started Blowing on people putting tier hands on strangers and all sorts of weirdness. They would announce that an Arch angel was in the room and only they could see hear them, they tried to give me something called IT, here soak in IT its all over you. No thanks ill just let you keep IT until IT is defined to me. I asked the leaders what IT was and they decided to have SPECIAL prayers for greg and sarah, SPECIAL PRAYERS?????? Well one night we came to see Ken Fish. HE REBUKED the entire church with his message HOW THE MIGHTY HAVE FALLEN!!! DONT treat PEOPLE like chattel!!! He let em have it. But the kinship leader got up and announced that:”we all LOVE Bethel” We all don’t! and the ladies the PROPHETESS’s gave us the cold shun and made it clear that anyone that speaks out against BJ and Benny Hinn is a devil. After all didn’t they do SPECIAL PRAYERS for us scoffers?
I learned my lesson . I can only Hope sarah and I can be a bridge and a voice of truth and warning. The point of my letter that I spammed all over the elisha list members sites and FB is this Lonnie was said to speak for God. You saw how excited Wimber was about the Mothers day fiasco, well he neglected to report that Lonnie gave a Stern warning about one thing: the prosperity gospel. Now they are following the Bill Johnson’s version of Benny Hinn/ copeland EW KENYON LIES gospel. As if the Prophet they adore never warned them… I warn them and they ague that BILL J does not teach that. He is more subtle and never goes as far as to look into the camera and say things like jesus was not god but I am. Yes they have lost the Toronto blessing and everyone knows the Vineyard is a withered vine by the river. they are desperate to experience anything that will fill the church again and BEthel is the NEW move of god? No its a rodney howard brown impartation. Bill J picked up his vision at toronto and through Brown, Brown is the one. he started the laughing disaster and now the drunkeness anything goes chaos.
My hope is that ONE person from vineyard comes around and then they may influence others and hopefully we can warn our best and leave the rest to God. I wrote Stan Frisbee a LONG letter and sent him the last hour of Lonnies message on mothers day. The warnings came in the last hour. It was lost for 33 years. Lonnies voice was buried under the singer. David Sloane fixed it. Stan played the first half that slams Chuck Smith at the group. But he had never heard the other hour. I sent him a cd so he can hear his departed brother warning him from 33 years ago. My position is this: hey guys, you idolize and model your selfs after Lonnie right? He spoke for God right? So why don’t you agree with me when I say the Bill Johnson and Benny Hinn are wolfs! Because YOUR “Prophet” was saying the same thing 33 years ago. He is dead but IM NOT!
SO WE SHALL PRAY AND SEE IF ANYONE HEEDS THE WARNING.. AT LEAST I CAN LOOK THE LORD IN THE EYE AND SAY I WARNED EM THEY HATED US BUT I WARNED EM LIKE YOU TOLD ME..
HAPPY GOOD FRIDAY
G
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*** LISTEN TO EXPOSING THE FALSE PROPHETIC MOVEMENT N.A.R. RADIO SHOW WE DID->
“WATCHMEN’S WARNING” – TOPIC:”SIGNS AND WONDERS”
LISTEN HERE-> http://www.blogtalkradio.com/thewatchmenonthewall/2013/03/23/the-watchmen-on-the-walls-main-event SAME LINK IS RECORDED TO HEAR OR UPLOAD,
ARE YOU COMMANDING GOD ON A CERTAIN DAY AND AT A CERTAIN TIME TO SHOW AT YOUR CHURCH AND PERFORM SIGNS WONDERS FOR YOU?
SO DID THE PHARISEES AND SADUCEES! JESUS ANSWERED THEM AND THEN HE DEPARTED FROM THEM! CAN YOU SAY:
ICHABOD
Mat 16:1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
Mat 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
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We did a Radio show Exposing John Whimber -> THE WATCHMEN’S WARNING “JOHN WIMBER & THE VINEYARD” LISTEN HERE -> http://www.blogtalkradio.com/thewatchmenonthewall/2013/02/23/the-watchmen-on-the-walls-main-event
EXPOSING FALSE TEACHING OF END TIME PROPHECY PART 3
JOHN WIMBER &THE VINEYARD
The Testimony of Yeshua (Jesus) is the Spirit of Prophecy. Rev 19:10
The world has almost always held true prophets to be insane. Church leaders will generally find true prophets about as welcome as ants at a picnic. One of the main problems with the church today is discerning the true from the false.
SO HOW CAN YOU TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT IS OF GOD AND WHAT IS NOT?
JOIN MISS PATRICIA AND BROTHER LAWRENCE AS THEY SCRIPTURALLY BREAK THIS DOWN SO YOU WILL BE WARNED AND READY TO COMBAT THE WILES OF THE EVIL ONE!
A PRODUCTION OF WOW MINISTRIES http://watchmanonthewall.webs.com/
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WE HAVE DONE MANY WATCHMEN SHOWS TO EXPOSE FALSE PROPHETIC MOVEMENT.FALSE TEACHERS, CULTS ,- LISTEN TO THE ARCHIVE RECORDINGS HERE -> http://www.blogtalkradio.com/thewatchmenonthewall
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M’KAYLA AND ALL YOUR WELCOME TO COME TONIGHT 🙂
***CROSS TALK RADIO TONIGHT – “ARE YOU ANTI-CROSS ” ?
THURS. 9 PM ET 6PM PT LISTEN HERE-> http://www.blogtalkradio.com/thewatchmenonthewall/2013/04/05/cross-talk-wbro-lawrence-are-you-anti-cross
OR listen TO RECORDING LATTER SAME LINK
OR WHEN LIVE CALL IN during live show (760) 283-5145 OR SKYPE ICON to listen
LOG IN WITH YOUR FACEBOOK AT BOTTOM OF CHAT ROOM TO CHAT
“ARE YOU ANTI-CROSS ” ? if so you are Anti-christ , Against Jesus teachings and Commands to FORSAKE ALL, DENY YOUR SELF AND BARE YOUR CROSS A NEW BORN AGAIN MAN WHO HAS DIED TO SELF WILL, SELF AS god, and put yourself fully surrendered under the Master Jesus Christ as Lord to do ALL THE FATHERS WILL LED BY THE SPIRIT !
LUKE 6;46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?
LUKE14:26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.
John 15:14-16
14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
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Thanks Larry! I work at night and so it is hard for me to join in. I will when I can, gladly! Also thinking of starting my own!
Love and blessings in the name of Christ our Lord. Thank you for all you do!
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Hey everybody. I’m new to the whole Bethel Church thing and am looking for some support and words of advice or encouragement!
I was born and raised a conservative Presbyterian, but have always really wanted to see a miracle. I say that up front because I’m not some hard-nosed intellectual who isn’t in touch with his feelings or needs everything to fit within a specific church mold. I WANT God to do wondrous things.
A few weeks ago, one of my roommates was watching the Bethel movie, “The Finger of God”. I’d never seen anything like it before, nor had I heard of any of the people interviewed in it. All I knew was that the movie was a non-stop cavalcade of miraculous signs and wonders, from gold dust, to manna falling out of Bibles, to one incredible healing after another.
When the movie was over, I was really excited (although there was an awkward moment in the movie where Heidi Baker chides a pastor for trying to explain the gospel to a Muslim woman who is standing in the doorway giving praise to Allah for the healing she received–I thought that was odd. “Just love! Just love!” she insisted as he shook his head crossly and looked like a royal jerk). These were the miracles and the powerful version of Christianity I’d read about in the gospels and in Acts. The deaf hear, the blind see, legs grow out. It seemed a little ridiculous that a bunch of old people were being given gold teeth and that the manna that fell out of this person’s Bible looked more like crushed crackers. But if God wanted to do that to get someone’s attention, or because this group of worshipers were more “in tune” with His Spirit, then maybe that sort of thing could happen?
We followed up the movie with YouTube videos of Todd White. Once again, backaches were disappearing, knee aches were healed, and…more legs were being grown out. Then there was a clip of Todd White speaking on a stage in front of a huge crowd. He was talking about the Bible and how it’s good for teaching, for reproof, for training in righteousness… “I think that’s in Hebrews somewhere. Yeah, Hebrews…”
My ears perked up at that point. We had done a study of 2 Timothy in my church several years ago and he was quoting one of our memory verses. But he totally botched the chapter/verse in front of a huge crowd that he was supposed to be teaching. A red flag went up. I decided to check up on Todd White and several of the other people who were in “The Finger of God” movie.
What I found was very concerning, particularly as I learned about Todd Bentley, Bob Jones, and the Toronto Blessing, and how all of this is connected to Bethel Church. People were barking like dogs, getting drunk in the Spirit, moaning, screaming like they were on fire, going into convulsions, and babbling and chattering like they were out of their minds. It really freaked me out.
Once I had done a lot of Internet research on all this, I told this roommate of mine that I thought he ought to be very careful with this stuff. The healings had not been verified, there was a good chance the “glory dust” was just plastic glitter, and that the Shekinah Glory that visits Bethel Church during long worship services is man-made and not miraculous at all.
He did not like hearing that. I didn’t realize how deep into Bethel Church culture he was (we are not in California, but he attends a Bethel-style church which has a School of Supernatural and follows the worship style). He listens to Jesus Culture music constantly, he has devoured all of Bill Johnson’s books (and is now working on Mike Bickle’s books). And he has watched the Bethel movies over and over again.
Had I known how deep into Bethel culture he was, I probably would have tried to be a bit more gentle with him. He is a new believer, having come from a Roman Catholic upbringing, and he feels very empowered and like he’s an “insider” thanks to Bethel–he’s a part of something spectacular. In the next few days, he invited me to go to his church, and he grilled me on what I think the Holy Spirit is and what its function is. A few days ago, he told all of us in the house that he had “received his healing” (as if he had been waiting for a package in the mail). He had a sports injury from several years ago and had been praying for God to heal him of it. He had just reached the point where he figured that God didn’t WANT to heal him, which was very confusing and hurtful for him, because Johnson says in his book that God doesn’t want ANY of us to be sick, because there is no sickness in heaven.
Then, suddenly, he got a warm, tingly feeling in his leg and he said the pain disappeared. He spent the rest of the afternoon lying on the floor with the Jesus Culture music playing, crying loudly.
He shared this with me and I tried so hard to drudge up some excitement, but I just couldn’t. I think it really hurt his feelings that I wasn’t excited that his leg had been healed. I think he took it as a sign that I was a skeptical “Pharisee”. It was such an awkward place to be in. I WANTED to be happy, but I couldn’t shake the feeling that something strange was going on. He had told me that, when he felt closest to God, he came down with uncontrollable jerks and shakes.
There’s something about the uncontrollable shakes and spasms that just doesn’t sit well with me.
We talked about Bible studies. He said that he had been asked to lead a lesson in the house before I arrived. He did not want to prepare, so when the time came for him to teach, he said that he prayed for the Holy Spirit to tell him what to do. The Spirit told him to close the Bible, take prayer requests, and spend the rest of the evening fellowshipping with the other guys in the house. “It was JUST what we needed,” he said. “God is so good.”
I took that as a veiled jab at me, considering he knew how much I love Bible study. I felt like he was trying to tell me that there was more to the Christian life than reading the Word (of course I know THAT, but I feel that the Bethel movie painted this caricature that people who love Bible study have no faith!!).
I walked in the other day and he was watching a movie called, “The Father of Lights”. I don’t know what the subject matter was, but there was a very long segment in which Johnson and others talked for a long time about how important it is to stop trying to understand God, don’t use your intellect, etc. etc. because that leads to something called “The Spirit of Religion”. One of the speakers in the movie said that the Spirit of Religion is seen in those people who take an intellectual approach to their faith. They very often are the leaders of church Bible studies and classes, they really want to understand what’s in the Bible, they want to do good deeds, and they are usually hypocrites. This speaker’s advice was to “Leave them alone”, quoting from where Jesus tells his followers to avoid the Pharisees because they are blind guides.
This man went on to say that people with the Spirit of Religion are trapped in an addiction more powerful than cocaine addiction, and nothing but a miracle can save them. His advice was to stay away from anyone with the Spirit of Religion.
A few days ago, this roommate left for a week to visit his family. He texted us all to pray for his friend who he was going to go heal. She had a torn ligament in her leg and he was going to go pray for her and that God was going to heal her.
Last night, he texted us this:
Hey yall my friends knee feels a lot better she was freaking out everytime it got better she would ask how the heck did i do it i keep telling her that GOD loves her so much and that shes beautiful and altho it wasnt a hundred percent i believe its going to happen gradually shes gonna let me know how it goes haha and one girl who sprained her hand playing got healed when i ask her to pray for it she was weirded out and freaked out coz the pain left and i told her jesus loves her thats why she kept asking how i did it i keep saying jesus. The kingdom of heaven has come upon her and oh shes bhuddist and invited me to stop by her workplace next week haha GOD opened that door so i probs gonna meet with her and share jesus yay god
Another one of my roommates had just come down with a terrible fever last night. He texted back to this friend of ours and asked him to pray for the fever. Suddenly, the fever left him. He got a text saying, “Your fever should be gone now. I was just praying for you.”
So, this roommate has been given the gift of healing, apparently. But here’s the tricky part: we are friends with a very godly Christian couple. The wife was just diagnosed with terminal cancer. And while the above knee pain and hand pain and fever disappeared when he prayed for them, the dear woman who has cancer has not been healed.
I don’t know how to respond to this. In spite of all my research…what if my roommate is RIGHT?! What if he REALLY IS healing people by the power of God??? I believe God can heal people, I REALLY do. But I feel like I’ve seen enough videos to see know the Street Healers and Benny Hinns of the world bamboozle people into THINKING they’re healed. So while I want to believe in the supernatural explanation, my mind wants to go first to the NATURAL explanation and see if there’s anything there.
It is the desire of my heart to please God. I do not want to be accused of being cynical or dismissive of something that’s REALLY HIM. I want to see Him move in mighty and powerful ways and demonstrate His miracles to show His glory and power over the circumstances in life that we can’t control. I won’t want to always feel like I have to add to my intercessions for healing, “…if it be your will”.
He hasn’t done any miracles for me…but this roommate claims they are commonplace for him. Is it ME?
And yet, I JUST can’t seem to believe that Christianity involves the chaos and the cult-style mess that occurs in the Toronto Blessing, or the Bethel Church. We just finished a study of the Tabernacle. Talk about ORDERLY WORSHIP of a SOVEREIGN and RIGHTEOUS GOD!!! I just can’t understand why God would go from wanting His people to treat Him with awe and reverence–to modern day barking in the spirit, getting drunk or high in the spirit, impartations through chaotic fire tunnels, chattering and babbling like monkeys, falling to the floor in seizures and trances, screaming that they’re on fire, people chanting and screaming and moaning and dancing around like maniacs at a rock concert.
Is this TRUE Christianity? God’s wonders and power and miracles of healing and prophecy and all that…??? I want to believe, but I can’t get my heart and mind around the fact that it looks like total *madness* and these people look *insane* or *demonized!* If that’s Biblical Christianity, I don’t know how to accept it. I don’t want to condemn something that’s legitimately from God.
I feel like God is working on my heart with this roommate of mine. He is my brother. I don’t want to be “RIGHT”, I want God to show him His truth through His Word.
Another thing he told me: “I’ve been having nightmares since the day you moved in.” I have NO idea what to think about that…
Anyway, I just needed to share. Do any of you have any advice? Thanks so much in advance.
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Hi Forky.
You have great cause for your alarm and concern. Your friend is greatly deceived under the teaching of Bill Johnson and Mike Bickel. Of course they would call anyone who studies the scripture something bad, someone to be avoided. The last thing they want is more people learning the truth -found only in scripture- and finding true salvation in the real Jesus Christ! I would refer him to:
John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life,a and the life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. 8He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.
9The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11He came to his own,b and his own peoplec did not receive him. 12But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
14And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15(John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) 16And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God; the only God,d who is at the Father’s side,e he has made him known.
Acts 17:11
Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.
I think the idea that we need to see more from God is the beginning of our trouble. God moves as He wills and while we want to see the big ta-da miracles, signs and wonders, we are not willing to live lives according to His will. When we think we can command God to perform like some circus elephant is thinking rooted in pride. And you know what is said about pride! 🙂
The whole idea behind the healing movement is based on flawed theology. If it were God’s will or His design to heal everyone, if complete physical healing really is in the atonement, we would all be healed upon our confession of faith, upon repentance. It is not the plan of The Lord to heal everyone. it is His plan that we come to know Him through Christ, through whatever situatuion life may bring, because Christ warned we would have tribulation and that HE has overcome the world. Christ healed everyone he touched, but not everyone professing faith was healed. There is a difference. God’s people were expecting their Messiah, and they knew only God could perform such miracles, and still they missed it because they were expecting something else, something more powerful. sounds exactly what we see going on in Bethel, IHOP, Morningstar, the same blindness infecting the church, and this time leading to great deception.
The antichrist is coming to deceive with great signs and wonders, and I do believe we are seeing the warm up phase to his coming. We see it in his ability to deceive in these lying signs and wonders aka pseudo healing of Bethel, etc., which really is not different than healing in other religions. there is a great power at work that is not of God. consider, all that manifestation, the shaking, the falling down how it mimics illnesses…what person in his right mind would bark like a dog…a bit like insanity, huh?
People who have been given over to these false teachings are not in their right minds and they are hard to reach. They have been so deceived and given over to what sounds good to them, the appeal if the flesh and tickling ears, they no longer can reason with their own minds. It will take the power of God to pull them out.
It is so very sad that your friend being a new believer is taken over so soon. He is not following Christ,but following man, a very dangerous one that has already successfully pulled Him from Christ! 2 Corinthians 11:14
For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.
As for his nightmares, I would think the enemy is attempting to put fear in him so that he will not hear you.
I came out of many false teachings and still believe God is mighty to save!!!
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Hi Forky,
I really felt for your story – many elements are similar to my own. I wanted to see “God move” and do “wonderful things.” I was so caught up on wanting to see miracles that I started to listen to those speakers who said that trying to understand God and His Word was sign of a controlling and religious spirit etc.
Thankfully, every time I went forward to be prayed for I always asked God to prevent me from falling over (being “slain in the spirit”) if this was not of Him. I never ever fell over. Question, was my prayer to God incorrect? Was my not falling over a sign that “the Toronto blessing” movement was not of God or a sign that I had a religious spirit? Was I not open to God? Did I not desire to “have more of Him in my life?” Was I not hungry for “something more?”
Allow me to boast of my own zeal, for a moment, if only to make a point. And it’s ridiculous to do so because no matter what I did or said it is God’s grace and mercy toward me that have saved me and brought me back from my backslidden ways – not anything I have ever done. But if we are going to have a discussion about “felt faith” (even though the Bible teaches us to live according to faith and not feeling) and if we are going to look at “experiences” as the determining factor in whether God is moving or not – here we go:
I would get up in the morning and begin to pray in my bedroom. As I paced back and forward across the floor, I would start by thanking and then praising Him – and only in that order (Psalm 100:4). I did this for about 30 minutes in order to “facilitate God’s presence”). I would then pray for the saints around the world that were being persecuted (Ephesians 6:18). I would also pray for peace in Israel (Psalm 122:6) and for their salvation (Romans 10:1). I would then pray for others who I knew that needed prayer and then, if time permitted, I would pray for myself.
After an hour of prayer as detailed above, I would begin to pray in tongues – taking also an hour. If anyone interrupted me during this time to speak to me, I would only answer them in tongues, not in English. Afterwards, I would then read the Bible for 30 minutes. In the evening when I got home from work, I would go back to my Bible and re-read the same passage and really meditate on what it said.
In all of this I never saw God do anything similar to the “Toronto Blessing” movement (and I was even prayed for by Rodney Howard Brown – the guy that started it all with Randy Clark – so beat that!) and I never developed in my relationship to a place of spiritual elitism able to perform signs and wonders. And I was confused, becuase God did not appear to be responding to me in the way I had been led to understand that He would.
So my zeal was evident and I was truly hungry for God. I was also deceived into following in the hyper-charismatic movement even though I was considered by many in my own Church as an outsider and unspiritual because I never experienced God the way that the others did (“slain/drunk in the spirit etc.).
So you see, basing our faith on our experiences is misleading. We only have one sure thing – and that is God’s Word and what it teaches us about Him. How happy I would have been if I had remained true to what I had been taught as a young believer in Christ – don’t seek for miracles because it is a wicked generation that does. Seek to know God better through His’ Word and if He wants to do something miraculous, He will.
I hope this is helpful and encouraging to you. Seek to know God through the Bible, Forky, but don’t allow yourself to move your focus off of Him and on to someone or something else. Your measure of confidence in Christ and you’re your assurity of salvation will never be found in experiencing miracles… whether real or fake (see Matthew 7:21-23).
In Christ.
Shawn
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Hi Forky,
I can identify with your concern for your friend because I have MANY friends who are involved in this National Apostolic Reformation (NAR) “movement” that you’re speaking about and I love them all. (I was previously following these teachings myself until my gracious Father in Heaven blessed me with the truth. I had to come to a place where I began to question the things I didn’t question before and when I humbled myself and asked God to show me the truth… guess what? He did! Hallelujah!) I continue to pray for more discernment to tell truth from error and also to help me and others present that truth to my friends. He is answering my prayers and I pray He does the same for you as well. [“My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.” James 5:19-20]
Two events that initiated my questioning this movement and its so-called Teachers/Prophets/Apostles were:
#1 – The fact that my own husband was deaf, sterile and had contracted Lyme’s Disease but wasn’t getting healed, nor did we ever have children. We both believed so strongly that his healing in this life was part of Jesus’ atonement that I was astonished when his healing and our children hadn’t manifested after years and years of “claiming those things as part of our inheritance.” One day I prayed, “Father, you know I’m a person of faith and I believe that Your healing for my husband took place 2000 years ago on the cross and will manifest on earth in this life. And I will continue to believe it, unless You tell me differently. If I’m believing something that isn’t true about You, please show me.” [“If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.” James 1:5] After that, the second event occurred.
#2 – Todd Bentley, a “Power Evangelist” for the NAR began a “revival” in Lakeland Florida which I watched faithfully every evening on God Tv. There were many claimed healings and various types of angels, impartations and anointing “visitations” and lots of jerking and falling down like you described can be seen in these clips: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0zq4SOSYMI
I watched on my wedding anniversary, June 23, 2008 as many of the head “apostles” in the NAR gathered around Todd Bentley and “prophesied” over him while they performed an ordination ceremony. Your friend will recognize all of the names of these “apostles” which included Bill Johnson.
In the first video clip, you’ll note that Randy Clark (who started the Toronto Blessing “movement”) said this, “We just wanted to call and bless you. We know it’s God, we know what it feels like.”
Here are some things the other “apostles” said while supposedly speaking for God during Todd Bentley’s ordination:
You have no guile in you” — Paul Cain
“Your power will increase, your authority will increase, your favor will increase, influence and revelation will increase” — C. Peter Wagner
“Knowing that you have walked in a manner worthy of the Lord, pleasing Jesus in every way, bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the intimacy and knowledge of God…” — Che Ahn
“Todd, I have chosen you because of your background, because of your background, because of your background to release my nature, when you release my gifts to become a living epistle like the Word who became flesh, and people saw the glory of God and I will use you to father a movement that operates in such revival power. But it is coming out of the very nature and heart of God. The Holy Spirit fell on me and he started to speak to me over and over and over again about a generation that would come on the earth that would do signs and wonders and change society and society would not change them and you are a first fruits of that generation. –Stacey Campbell
We shape the course of history by partnering with you, giving honor where it’s due. You welcome the glory as well as anyone I’ve ever seen in my life. I long to learn from you in that” — Bill Johnson
You can watch the ordination ceremony in these clips: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVdY9ufJmz8&feature=related
Just a few short days later, Todd Bentley left his wife (after stating DURING THE REVIVIAL , ON TV, that she was “the most beautiful woman in the world” and that God had “fully healed” his marriage) and his 3 children in Canada and secretly married his twenty-something babysitter/ministry intern in America. Needless to say, I was floored! Something was VERY wrong, not only with Todd Bentley, but with all the false apostles who prophesied over him with NO discernment that he was having an extra-marital affair at the time! Whatever “spirit” was giving them the prophecies was a lying spirit!
Jer. 23 1. “Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasture!” declares the Lord. 2. Therefore this is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says to the shepherds who tend my people: “Because you have scattered my flock and driven them away and have not bestowed care on them, I will bestow punishment on you for the evil you have done,” declares the Lord. 3. “I myself will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and will bring them back to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and increase in number. 4. I will place shepherds over them who will tend them, and they will no longer be afraid or terrified, nor will any be missing,” declares the Lord. 9. Concerning the prophets: My heart is broken within me; all my bones tremble. I am like a drunken man, like a man overcome by wine, because of the LORD and his holy words. 10. The land is full of adulterers; because of the curse the land lies parched and the pastures in the desert are withered. The [ prophets] follow an evil course and use their power unjustly. 11. “Both prophet and priest are godless; even in my temple I find their wickedness,” declares the Lord. 12. “Therefore their path will become slippery; they will be banished to darkness and there they will fall. I will bring disaster on them in the year they are punished,” declares the Lord. 13. “Among the prophets of Samaria I saw this repulsive thing: They prophesied by Baal and led my people Israel astray. 14. And among the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen something horrible: They commit adultery and live a lie. They strengthen the hands of evildoers, so that no one turns from his wickedness. They are all like Sodom to me; the people of Jerusalem are like Gomorrah.” 15. Therefore, this is what the LORD Almighty says concerning the prophets: “I will make them eat bitter food and drink poisoned water, because from the prophets of Jerusalem ungodliness has spread throughout the land.” 16. This is what the LORD Almighty says: “Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the Lord. 17. They keep saying to those who despise me, ‘The LORD says: You will have peace.’ And to all who follow the stubbornness of their hearts they say, ‘No harm will come to you.’ 18. But which of them has stood in the council of the LORD to see or to hear his word? Who has listened and heard his word? 19. See, the storm of the LORD will burst out in wrath, a whirlwind swirling down on the heads of the wicked. 20. The anger of the LORD will not turn back until he fully accomplishes the purposes of his heart. In days to come you will understand it clearly. 21. I did not send these prophets, yet they have run with their message; I did not speak to them, yet they have prophesied. 22. But if they had stood in my council, they would have proclaimed my words to my people and would have turned them from their evil ways and from their evil deeds. 23. “Am I only a God nearby,” declares the Lord, “and not a God far away? 24. Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him?” declares the Lord. “Do not I fill heaven and earth?” declares the Lord. 25. “I have heard what the prophets say who prophesy lies in my name. They say, ‘I had a dream! I had a dream!’ 26. How long will this continue in the hearts of these lying prophets, who prophesy the delusions of their own minds? 27. They think the dreams they tell one another will make my people forget my name, just as their fathers forgot my name through Baal worship. 28. Let the prophet who has a dream tell his dream, but let the one who has my word speak it faithfully. For what has straw to do with grain?” declares the Lord. 29. “Is not my word like fire,” declares the Lord, “and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces? 30. “Therefore,” declares the Lord, “I am against the prophets who steal from one another words supposedly from me. 31. Yes,” declares the Lord, “I am against the prophets who wag their own tongues and yet declare, ‘The LORD declares.’ 32. Indeed, I am against those who prophesy false dreams,” declares the Lord. “They tell them and lead my people astray with their reckless lies, yet I did not send or appoint them. They do not benefit these people in the least,” declares the Lord. 39. Therefore, I will surely forget you and cast you out of my presence along with the city I gave to you and your fathers. 40. I will bring upon you everlasting disgrace–everlasting shame that will not be forgotten.”
Of course Jesus and HIS apostles warned about false teachers, prophets and apostles repeatedly and we know that they are amongst us. In doing more research while I was getting my head back on straight, I came across information about the Kundalini Spirit which bears a striking resemblance to the manifestations we see occurring at Bethel, Toronto, etc. Compare the clips in the article below to the jerking and spiritual transference, etc. in the Todd Bentley videos (they are identical):
http://www.christianstogether.net/Articles/209364/Christians_Together_in/Christian_Life/Kundalini_spirits_in.aspx
I John 4 “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3. but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. 4. You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5. They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6. We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.”
Keep praying for your friend and allow the REAL Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, to work through you and give you the words to speak.
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@Forky
couple clarifications…! the whole NAR thing is a mess true….ive been researching and researching the whole thing since so many of my own friends are excited about the whole thing, now its important to do our own due diligent study and make sure we get it right.
for my own benefit i took off work and drove to bethel, redding CA and met with students, and even a close friend who studies there. just that i dont by some chance miss the real deal…and its not the real deal…! its plain apostasy…Bill Johnson has a very crooked theology and his “great” book is full of errors…! the one when heavens invades the earth…! he still backs up Jhon Crowder and Todd Bentley….! both whom are a total disgrace to christianity! u have to understand that in a way this sort of behaviors rise due to our own stiffness in the traditional churches which Christ never intended us to end up like…we are supposed to be on the streets telling ppl of the great news of Jesus…! and the Bethel/Johnson ppl will use that as a weapon against us…anyhow! i have to say that i felt at one point just like you , here i am in this traditional church and all i do is bible studies and meetings and choir practice and lots of debating, and altogether missing the whole point of being a light in the world, in the actual streets, meeting actual people… and by Gods grace i stumbled over Francis Chans youtubes and i was blown away by his down to earth`ness and by his simple yet piercing messages ….! and thats how i came to truly serve Christ…..! now i am at a point where i dont care about what ppl`s opinion is about me, i dont care about the money i make i dont care about what type of car i drive, all i care is how much more i can be used in Gods true kingdom. And truly theres a great Urgency, and a great need!
having said that now id like to refer to couple ppl and especially Todd White whom i saw in real life. i had my questions too when i saw him associated to the afore mentioned ppl but this one guy is for real…why i say that, i went to one of his conferences and having my verdict up and running against bethel crowd, i was very cautious about the whole thing, meaning i didnt go there already prepared(like one would go to one of them bethel meetings) to dance and roll on the floor and laugh maniacally …!
there was no trance music, theres was absolutely no prosperity gospel being preached actually the other way around, theres was no abnormal behavior no laughter but some sacred awe for God that made u tremble and think and reflect about God….! it was awesome! Todds testimony amazing, 22 years of addiction and how God turned his life around…! and his preaching…! like he calls it lifestyle Christianity….! he wasnt for a second pushing the envelope against a certain church nor was he trying to get u to join bethel or a movement, but to simply be a light where u are…..! and love ppl, cause the truth of the matter is that they will recognize you by your love …!
next issue would be, healings, and large amounts of testimonies of how ppl would get healed…! does he have a gift of healings? i suppose so, and i truly believe so….! even tho he tells everyone how they should all pray for sick ppl.! is that the main message he preaches? Nope! its Jesus!
Todd White has been a christian for about 8 years now and in my opinion he is still growing in his faith and knowledge. i do have a great deal of respect for the guy of how he can let Jesus shine through his life 🙂 when i left the conference all i could think of was how to share the Gospel and i would randomly pray in my heart for ppl id see at the coffee shop, in the airport on the plane…! i would never be pushy or respect-less to anyone, but dont forget they need to see Jesus in you, not how smart u are r or how many verses u can quote…!
i would recommend seeing him in a conference….! it will do you good! 🙂
advice for you? if u have friends that fall into the trap of Bethel, remember you`re dealing with ppl who are lead astray by very crafty demons, and u need to be very careful how u respond to them bcz they are brainwashed into thinking that ppl who disagree with them are Pharisees and going by the Law…! a very good friend of mine recently started this whole bethel/Johnson thing and is sooooo amazed by how charming and in depth he preaches, and my instinct was to pull all the ammunition out and demonstrate her clearly that the whole thing is a Heresy but i was surprised to find out that she wasnt open for discussions…! she wasnt looking for the truth! she wasnt ready to say no if the truth would come out that he is not right! she just loves the guy….! how he preaches, his expositions…..! and l think like mkayla said earlier in her blog she was mentioning how she could sense a slight change in her pastor (i belive it was) behavior, exactly same thing happened to me, she would see me as a possible threat to her spiritual life, and she would be suddenly rude to me(which would never happen before), and many other small changes that add up to same conclusion…! i am praying for her that shes safe and will soon realize the truth….i did my part, i said it clearly: i dont think bill johnson has a clean theology , i dont agree with him in many things, but in the same time i wasnt being aggressive nor did i force the note…! bcz i still want to be friends and keep in touch so i can monitor her :):):)
so final note…..i love Todd White and his take on Lifestyle Christianity !! its awesome ! while i still read CS Lewis ,Watchman Nee and Martyn Lloyd Jones and watch Francis Chan or John Piper and such….!
hope it helped a bit, sorry i have soooo much to say regarding the subject if u have more questions id be happy to give u my thought….!
……………………………………………………………………………………………….
we are dealing with occult in within a cult…..! so be-careful
Peace 🙂
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Please beloved….
Let’s look at this from another perspective;
Jesus Himself was ridiculed for eating and drinking with sinners (He even ate with known prostitutes…), and the religious order at that time despised Him for it..
But the main reason Jesus did that is because He is Love…. And Love bears fruit!
I have to ask you then, “Has anybody here witnessed any “fruit” from these ministries?…
Have souls been saved from hell to salvation?
Was Jesus magnified and glorified throughout the meetings/services?
Were there any tangible, undeniable miracles that took place – where God takes all the credit?
If you answer “yes” to these questions, then we have no “say-so” to which manner of vessel, vehicle or validation that the Lord uses to add value to His Kingdom..
(Remember, He did make “spittle” and applied it to the blind man’s eyes…. Do you believe that man “cared” about the manner or process that took place in order for him to receive his sight?)
I’ve read words from this post like, occult, demonic, satanic and dangerous, and I’ve got to say very rarely have I read any words like love or forgiveness …
If we say “we” are the one’s who are correct in these spiritual matters, let’s try to use words like grace instead of judgement!?…. (I’m just sayin’) 🙂
(btw, has anybody here, ever “confronted” or approached these people with their errors?)..
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Andre, Jesus was ridiculed because people did not want to accept that fact that He was the Messiah as they had a completely different idea of what the Messiah would be based on their own worldly thinking.
The Lord brought me out of this deception. When we compare teachings of Bethel and the many other organizations out there who come in the name of Jesus they do not line up with the word of God. It is not enough to use His name and the basic gospel. The test is what they do and say afterward. If I claim to be saved and then come under false teachings I am being led to believe the other gospel, the other jesus that Paul warned about. These men and women boast the prophetic, yet the words they speak are filled with emotionalism based on pride, elevating man, not God. I know this for a fact, because I was once considered to be a seer prophet. They boast angel feathers, gold dust, glory clouds, their bodies manifest odd movements, their voices speak odd words. The hear from demons and practice the doctrines of demons. It is not enough to “love” and to “forgive”. There is the judgement side of our Lord God of which they will not escape until they repent. I will continue to warn and admonish, building the body of Christ as we are taught to do and is true NT prophecy. And yes, many of us have approached leaders, teachers and pastors with the truth. I have no doubt that Bill Johnson and many others like him know exactly the deception they are teaching. Don’t attempt to white-wash this on my blog. I will not allow it. I hope and pray you see the urgency of this matter and join us in exposing these deceptions. The easy way to do to that is to take the teaching and compare it with the bible. That is where you will see the lies. The Holy Spirit will reveal that to you.
Blessings
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Andre,
I would prayerfully encourage you to study John 8. In John 8, beginning at verse 31, Jesus begins to address the Jews “who had believed in Him”. He had been doing miracles and teaching among them. Everything seemed to be going well, UNTIL He spoke the following to them:
To the Jews who had believed in Him, Jesus said, “If you HOLD TO MY TEACHING, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:31,my emphasis)
At the end of the conversation with these Jews, who refuse to comprehend that they are slaves to sin apart from Jesus, He states His Godhood plainly to them and they try to kill Him. Again, these were Jews who had put their faith in Him, until He admonished them to hold to His teachings.
The same apostle, John, puts it plainly again in his second letter:
“Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. ANYONE WHO RUNS AHEAD AND DOES NOT CONTINUE IN THE TEACHING OF CHRIST DOES NOT HAVE GOD; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.” (2 John: 7-11, my emphasis)
The word of faith “born-again jesus” is NOT the Jesus Christ of the Bible who has come in the flesh.
If we love the Word of God, who is Jesus Christ in the flesh, then we follow Him. Maybe our words are blunt and off-putting, but they are spoken by those who have “been there/done that” so-to-speak, experienced its horrors first hand, were rescued by the grace of a Holy God out of it, and desperately want to warn others of the perils.
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It is truly a blessing to read and comprehend such experienced and honest discussion concerning this emergent “movement”. Followers of NAR, Kingdom Now, and Bethel Supernatural are presently creeping into mainline Christian organisations, such as The Salvation Army, (in Australia) – particularly in the Southern Territory. We have a fierce spiritual battle going on right now. It appears that teachings have entered at Training College levels/ Theology College levels, where new candidates are identified, or pre-existing “pro-NAR” candidates slip their way through and are Commissioned, or receive Ordination.
They then are given a Corps, (Church), known as “their” church to “command”. From then on the tell tale signs of the emergent movement take hold. The older/experienced Christians are told to leave and worship somewhere else, the “newer” Christians guided in the ways of the new “Reformation”. New Ordinates in “Command”, often don’t even cover facebook follows and likes to Bethel Supernatural, or Redding, as they are apparently of the belief that no one will be any the wiser! The Corps concerned are usually smaller/country Corps/Churches, out of sight and mind of the larger stronger Corps of the metropolitan areas. A very troubling time lays ahead for the “Army”.
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Patricia King is listed as a visiting teacher for the Salvation Army’s “War College” in Vancouver:
“The War College local and/or visiting faculty include: Jonathan Evans, Carla Evans, Aaron White, Cherie White, Major Doug Burr, Michael Collins, Major Winn Blackman, Faytene Kryskow, Patricia King, Commissioners Marilyn and William Francis and Nicole Brindle (a full list can be found in the reference).”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_College_(The_Salvation_Army)
The lack of discernment in Christianity worldwide is terribly troubling.
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“The lack of discernment in Christianity worldwide is terribly troubling.” It most certainly is. The “War College” is one institution of which we are watching, along with guest lecturers whom are known pro-NAR, Emergent Church involved. This seems to be where many of the ideologies are originating from. In addition, lecturers etc. travel to the other international Colleges and centres spreading the ideals and “grooming” new candidates. Unfortunately the laity are trusting and resolved to an “military” type structure which is not welcoming of conscientious objections, viewing laity as “subordinate”. This is particularly the case where NAR/Emergent Church ideologies have been imposed. Thanks for highlighting this area of concern. Your right on the mark!
God bless,
Don
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Two simple, self-evident comments: first, the single most important spiritual gift is discerning of spirits. Without that, much or all may be lost. It is important for each of us to cry out to God that His Holy Spirit would give us more of this, as distinguished from the “gift” of criticism. Second: it has been my observation with many (all I have ever met) Bethel people (I live 2 miles from their main campus), that the only way they can be reached is by spiritual warfare. Somehow, this is the same as I have found with cults such as JW’s: they get infected with evil spirits which prevent them from being open to hearing truth. However, sadly, I have never yet been able to influence any of them out of it.
It helps to have a very very clear idea of the heresies.
An abominable heresy at Bethel has been equating of faith with risk. Biblically those are not equal at all, but opposite. But right in Bethel’s printed material, and in their “Fire Starters” class, they go so far as to take the verse from Hebrews and change it to read “Without RISK it is impossible to please Him.” That is an abomination, and adds to them the plagues of Revelation 22:18.
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Very good observation !
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A few months ago when I first heard of Heidi Baker, I decided to search her on YouTube. I liked her stories and her sermons until I watched the video about her testimony where she said this…
and suddenly randy says apostolic anointing
and God just flips me up on the side of my head,
on top of my head and I can’t do this physically
I’m on my head and Randy is saying more God more
he’s enjoying it and I’m like
what are you doing God? and I’m on my head
and I remember this song
I said take me and use me
Bruise me if need be
and I was singing about white fields of harvest
and children crying and dying
take me and use me
bruise me if need be
and I’m on my head and then BAM
I am I’m down and I was literally bruised from head to toe
She also said this…
and I’m trying to get up
and I was kinda stuck behind the stage and
Im trying I’m like pushing and
I’m trying and I cannot move
I think, woah what do they have magnets?
or glue? or what, I mean I don’t know
my brain was like what is going on and then I actually started to get worried
because I think I’m gonna in trouble here
they’re gonna think, you know, I’m not being obedient
I’m not getting up and it’s time to leave
and I’m telling God I’m supposed to get out and up and
I cannot move, my heads like stuck my
fingers, my feet, I feel this heavy weighty
heavy, heavy, heavy glory weight on me
but then I’m afraid and suddenly
around the corner comes Betty and she’s like
“hi sweetie, are you ok? it’s okay we’ve seen this before.
don’t worry I’ll get help”
and she got help, so nice
they picked me up somehow
and they took me to my hotel, Betty and friends
and they laid me out there and I was stuck in my bed
and there were a few times I could crawl at three in the
morning to the restroom
and I would be carried back in the church
and I’ll be stuck there again
and this is what God said
I asked him what’s going on I mean, you’d ask,
I looked like a quadriplegic
and the tenderness of God was just pulsating like liquid love, just pulsating through me his presence
he said you can do nothing without me
and you can do nothing without the body of Christ
and to demonstrate that I could nothing without the body of Christ…
unless somebody in the church heard to give me water
I wouldn’t get any that day
unless somebody in the church heard to help me,
pick me up, four people get me to the restroom
I would not get to the restroom
I could not speak
I could not eat
I had water poured down my throat
I felt extremely uncomfortable with Heidi’s testimony, but because everyone in my church supported her so much, I decided to ignore my initial fears. In fact, I looked down on myself for feeling uneasy about her. I told myself that I was ignoring the Holy Spirit, and I even considered that maybe the reason I was afraid of Heidi’s testimony was because I was being influenced by Demons (I don’t like the word Demon…it seems too strong and dramatic, but I’m not sure what other word fits.)
I don’t know what to believe anymore… 😦
My church has changed completely…people have started talking about
-Sozo
-Fire Tunnels
-Spiritual anointings (for healing, worship, leadership, painting, etc…)
-Heidi Baker
-Bethel in Redding
We started having super long worship periods (hours long) where we only sing a few songs, but the songs are lengthened and separated from the others by long periods of improvised lyrics.
People started falling out on the floor.
I had a dream a few months back that I had a pastor interpret for me (a different pastor that doesn’t know my church). He said he was worried the dream might mean my church is accepting “Babylonian doctrines”.
I’m not sure what Babylonian doctrines are, but does this qualify?
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I’m not sure about Babylonian doctrines. I do know that we have been warned that this would be a sign of the coming if The Lord in Matthew 24. Also 2 Thessalonians 2 tells us of the falling away. We are in quite disturbing times and I know many of us are not able to find churches that keep to sound doctrine. My comfort is in the Lird who has not only warned us that these things must be, but has promised to be with us.
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Olivia,
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness and SELF-CONTROL. Against such things there is no law.” Galatians 5:23
“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their FRUIT you will recognize them.” (Matthew 7:15-16a)
If it doesn’t line up with the Word of God who is Jesus Christ in the flesh, then it is not of the Spirit of God. Jesus healed many (and still does). “Bruised from head to toe” is not of Him, it is of satan. Out-of-control, mindless behaviors and “spiritual drunkenness” are not of Him. Boasting about “spiritual experiences” is not of Him. We do not know them by their works, but by their fruits.
Stay in the Word and test everything. Praying for you….
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Just one ….. Hey you quacker! Good to see you!
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Olivia, if you search the Oracle of Delphi you can learn more about Babylonian Doctrines. A lot of the ecstatic experiences that you are witnessing were experienced in Babylon.
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Hi, I just found out about bethel, I was a huge fan of Jesus culture. My brother whos a worship leader told me of them so my husband and I looked them up. And they are soo known in the church, their music is played everywhere at home and in churches. Yet we are in the last days and Satan has used this big deceiving spirit to deceiver soo many Christians. We posted a video we saw of exposing bethel and Jesus culture on Facebook an my husband sent to a really good friend of his, with no response back. Weeks later I see our friend, who is a pastor, in a group picture with bethel school of ministry, they went and helped out at his church. I am a Pentecostal, umm not an extremest, and I do believe in the Holy Spirit moving and tongues, prophecy, healings etc, but that must line up with Gods word!!! I know many pastors/ people want to see revival and people just know who Jesus is, but they take it into their own hands. Instead of fasting, praying and seeking Gods face and waiting on Him, they create their own version of our Lord and the precious Holy Spirit. Thanks for sharing your experience
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I wonder if any of you doubters have given as much attention to this discombobulated group of oratories as evidence of satans interference in the work of the Holy Spirit rather thaBill Johnson, Heidi Baker or others. Todd White, Randy Clark, etc. I’m 79 and have been through the gauntlet of life. Quoting a native American say ing….unles you have walked a mile in my moccassins……Knock it off!
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I totally understand what you mean Clay Miller! The thing is tho, for example Todd White even tho he hangs around with the charismatic crowd and hops from bethel to bethel type of church and sometimes even quotes Bill Johnson!!!! he is totally different then the bunch, his theology is waaaay different, since he is a disciple of dan mohler, an awesome small church PA preacher! and if u listen to dan mohler it will all make sense 🙂 My point is that i love todd white and dan mohlers teachings but am very cautious when it comes to bill johnson and his bunch….! and all the bethel church manifestations !
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Also if I may add….! the attitude is very important too! Im very sure that that is the reason we are all here to debate, talk, and alert the members of the church of potential harm …! i dont mind if u dont agree with my favorite pastor…it might be just becuase we have different views, or u have a deeper understanding/experience then i do, and why wouldnt i take the time to listen to what u have to say? by no means am i taking sides here (i feel like i am in the middle, even tho i agree with most of mkayla`s blog i do have my different take on many issues) , and again attitude is very important, telling someone to knock it off helps ur side very little….! if any:) just saying.! and im only 30 and do respect ur age but I also respect all these people trying to warn us of potential harm. !
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I have walked that mile and it has cost me almost EVERYTHING… except my Heavenly Father who will never leave me or forsake me. I know of what I speak, all too well. These people ARE dangerous as they deceive the very elect (I am proof, but thank God, He was faithful when I wasn’t and He led me back out.) You are correct that it is Satan working through these people; however, it was the same with the false teachers in Paul’s day and he NEVER stopped warning about them – even calling them out by name. He set our example.
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Clay, I feel you are implying here that these leaders you quote – have more validity & weight in their public comments than those of us who have sat under any of these teachings…. why is that exactly? in all seriousness how are they more authentic or spiritual or on track than others who are equally saved by grace?
part of the issue here is that Bethel/NAR is indeed a platform which raises up & propels forward these “names” it gives them the very voice with which many hear & believe in all they are saying & teaching… that platform – the brand if you will… becomes the trusted qualifier…. see the problem? its not weighted against the word of God….
I do feel tho, I meet your criteria, having walked waaaay more than a mile in this movement & being the OP of the original testimony of this thread… see I cant knock it off…. I have agonised, prayed & weighed these things & found whats coming from Bethel is gnostically false…. what other voice other than this blog & others including my own do we have, where exactly do precious servants of the Lord go with their hurt & confusion from all of this… there is no voice for us until we speak! & speak Gods truth…
I’ll share the burning question I had – with you – when I came out of all of this 3 years ago.. its simply this: “how can we proclaim we have the presence of God in our midst (based on evidences of physical manifestations & some subjective healings) when people & especially leaders are behaving in a way which demonstrates , impatience, favouritism, exclusivity, irresponsibility, holding grudges against people, nepotism & cult like control..?.” doesn’t fit with the fruit of the spirit, Galatians 5 does it??? which is the real indictor of where the Holy Spirit is at work… see preaching a culture of honour & then not role modelling it – that’s hypocrisy…
bottom line we must weigh what we see against the word… if it doesn’t match. its reasonable to discern a falseness. & its completely biblical to discern test & weigh.
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I am going only to “ditto” what Zazzy says here. The bottom line truth is the word of God. The men and women and the movements I have exposed here (of which I have first hand experience)do not line up with the true teachings found therein. Been there, done that and that is why I do what I do. Walk a mile in moccasins,at least. And my teachers in the word of God, namely Paul says to do exactly what I have been, exposing, warning and getting away from. Wake up.
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Hi M’kyala,
Someone else I know is a believer and is now practising bi-location and also he has received smith wigglesworth’s mantle, seen Jesus and had gold dust I don’t even have to ask I am sure this is all connected with the false prophetic and I’m inclined to discount all of this person’s experiences. Yes he is a nice guy but I cannot believe so many are being sucked into this… I know it would seem arrogant and presumptious to some to discount another’s experiences they might say ‘how can you know for sure?’ ‘why couldn’t God do these things?’ but I think there are pointers to look out for such as an insatiable desire for more more more signs, wonders and miracles; scriptures used out of context, a general biblical illiteracy and when the names of dodgy ministries pop up such as you have mentioned as well then to me this is an open and shut case…. sad eh?
We warn in love and yet are accused of being narrow minded and arrogant admittedly we must not warn in an angry or superior tone or this completely undermines the goal of rescuing others. Of course you are ideally suited to this ministry because of your own experiences. Blessings Anon
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Thank you so much for sharing!!
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Hi M’Kayla! Thank you so very much for this site.
As so many others have done, I moved to Redding to get healed of very bad illness.
Not for useless “signs and wonders”, but rather for Jesus to heal me. After being disillusioned at Bethel, I quit there, still very ill.
But in this small city of about 90,000, in walking around town, especially if I am obviously in need of healing, Bethel school students are taught to pray for whomever whenever they can gang up on you anyplace in town, with them laying their hands on you or me for their fake attempt at healing. My brain does not function well due to brain damage and other things, and so it is very hard to resist them adequately on the spot.
I have followed here the many comments about the heresies and demonic infiltration at Bethel, and hoiw they arre training up false prophets as fast as they can and sending them out to contaminate the church as fast as they can.
I found it disgusting how they substitute the word “risk” for “faith” in Scripture, saying such things as misquoting Hebrews to read “But without RISK it is impossible to please Him.” That is grieving the Holy Spirit so much!!
I am asking you for something:
Could you, with help of others here, write up in organized form a list of Bethel’s heresies, each with the appropriate Biblical response to them. Something so that when I am in town, and not able to think properly, especially on the spur of the moment, that I would be able to defend myself against them. On this site, many of the heresies, apostasies, and abominations have been discussed in some detail. But I cannot remember what I need to remember when I am approached by them on the street. The information is all scrambled in my mind.
I know that part of the answer is to depend on the Holy Spirit at the moment to give me the proper answers. But recently when approachefd by them I have had nothing adequate to say in defence. I am aware that most of them have demons blinding their eyes, ears, and hearts from the truth (Isaiah 6:9-10). But possibly I could win some to the truth.
It is also very hard when they claim to be able to heal, and I know that at almost every meeting in their building the leaders talk about healings taking place, usually in some other part of the world—–but, I do not claim that power, and am very ill. I have nothing better to offer. I do not have the real thing to offer with which to counter their claims. Jesus generally did not argue with people; He simply demonstrated the power of God to them.
It would be so good if I could have something in print in a very organized manner so that I can defend myself, and show the occasional Bethel-ite who is not demonized and who will accept the truth from the Holy Spirit when it is revealed. Can you help with thiis need? I would do it myself if I could, but my brain does not function sufficiently so as to do this myself. Please???
(Just writing this has exhausted me mentally and I need now to go to bed, with my heavy narcotics for the pain.)
Thank you. May Jesus’ blessing rest upon you!!!
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Tenderhearted, why don’t you take this to the Lord and sit with your bible one question at a time. This will be a great experience for you to learn and grow. You don’t need me to parrot! 🙂 Let me know what you come up with! xoxox
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I’m reaching out, maybe to someone who’s been where I am now. I am living in Redding right now, did 1st year Bssm last year and as the result of this pulling, tugging at my spirit for several years- I am finally seeing the truth. These past several months I’ve been in a deep funk, doubting at every turn what Bethel really is, what I’ve welcomed into my heart and life. Felt like a failure for doubting it, and for a while I had a hard time separating my doubt with bethel from God. I really didn’t know what to do. Since being saved, the majority of my life, bethel has had major influences in my life. I have felt so confused, my best friends, spiritual parents, mentors all bethel bethel betheled out. I thought, could it all be wrong? Lies? Deceit?
I now almost certainly know that it is NOT truth. In all my time here I’ve heard repentance mentioned twice, and have NEVER heard the message of the gospel. My heart is broken, and this is now the second time I’ve been lead into deception ( I grew up Mormon). Where do I go from here? Are there any churches in Redding that I can trust? I’m so thankful that I finally listened to that tugging at my spirit, that God hasn’t left me, that He loves me too much to let me stay here.
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Heidi,
My heart goes out to you. My blog is full of information of personal experience and how the Lord led me out of the deception. There are also links to other blogs and resources that can help you, and not to forget, the many, many comments here from real people experiencing the same. Where do you go from here? To the lap of the Most High God my friend – in prayer, in worship, sit at His feet and let His wonderful words in the bible wash you clean, restore and strengthen you.
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I’ve been through that and it turned into the worst year of my life. My church started with the “bethel” movement. We had the bible institute and I participated and got the certificate after a year of attending. We served and did the “treasure hunts”, prophesies and a number of practices that only brought confusion, including false prophesies and manipulation and lies to day the least. I ended up leaving the country for a year and thank God I finally received clarity. They made you feel like they were the only church where God really moved and a sence of guilt would come to me if I went elsewhere. A lot of confusion and chaos to say the least after that year.. And I was a strong Christian and knew scripture. I’m SO thankful to be out of there and be free again but it wasn’t easy. Praise God for your blog!
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please check out 948 Jamieson Ct. #4. Hope this helps.
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I appreciate seeing the testimony given here. I am a former WOF adherent under ken hagin. I too was delivered from the false doctrines of the church. I had largely moved on to more stable forms of christianity, however we are seeing the NAR/apostles teaching spreading around locally. Its sad to see, knowing what it is. So I see the need to begin blogging and defending the true faith.
The beauty I have noticed is that God leads others out according to his will but we are not the majority. Sometimes we feel isolated and alone but we are strengthened by a true loving and caring Christ. “My sheep know my voice and the voice of the stranger they will not follow…” paraphrased from John 10: 1-18. I drank the Kool aid for 4 years. It took another several years to adjust from the indoctrination. Thank God for his leading us out!
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Hello to all! My comment is this. If someone claims to be a born again christian. Then one of two top things that they should be doing is spending time on a regular basis reading and studying the scriptures!!!!! And I’m not talking about just going along with the scripture references that a pastor may use in his sermon? I’m talking about reading and studying the scriptures alone on a regular basis. And that leads to the number two thing. The number two thing is talk with god (pray) about the scriptures you are reading and studying!!!!! And also when you are in a church? Jot down notes and scripture references concerning things spoke from the pastor in the sermon? And then go home and some time that day (preferably)? Or over that week? Get out those notes and scripture references and do further reading and studying and cross referencing concerning the notes and scriptures that you jotted down in church!!!!!! I just don’t understand why in the world many people who claim to be born again christian are not doing these things? I know that some do? And that great!!!!!! But the majority don’t? I know this because I know and have known many people who go to church? Even on a regular basis? So I mean seriously!!!!!!!!!!! Come on men and ladies!!!!!!!!! Get into and read gods word!!!!!!!! Its living word!!!!!!! It has life in it!!!!!!!!! Maybe if people would actually start truly doing that? Then there would be way less deception going on in the so called churches? And now some of this post may have offended some people? But you know what? I really don’t care? Because its the truth and needed to be said!!!!!! So may god continue to richly bless you all and cause you to know his love and peace!!!!!!!!!
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Woo-hoo! Perfect.., the bible charges us to do that very thing—test everything!
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Does Bethel still teach these things today?
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Yes Ronnie. Nothing has changed with Bethel’s teachings. And it spreads like crazy wildfire.
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Why is it that i am at bethel going on 1.5 years and i have not seen any of this stuff you guys are talking about. I have real relationships with people and we do fun stuff together …( i listened to your radio thing about how you found no real relationships in this culture and no love at Bethel. ) that makes me sad that you could make such a judgement from a one time visit. ( i think u said one time – i could be wrong though ) While i may not agree with everything they teach ( that would be the same at any church) i can say i agree with more that they teach than the rest of the churches put together. I find their faith and love for jesus so encouraging.. Some of the stuff that is written on these pages by people about bethel is just a lie,. Its not right….. bless bethel and all the churches of this world.I believe there are true believers and non believers in every church and that is for God to decide. blessings. sam .
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None of the things I have spoken out against regarding my involvement are lies. Not one! While you may not understand you have no place to accuse someone of lying, especially someone you have never met. I never said I visited Bethel. I said the groups I had been involved with and the church I attended did not have love for each other. While this may seem shocking, I will explain it. There is a consistent and constant need for the next prophetic word, the next experience of the supernatural and so on. There is not a love of people and there is not a love of the true word of God. If there existed a love of these thing the false teachings would come to an end. The Jesus they teach, the one you believe they have such faith in, is not the Jesus of the bible. Spend some time in research and compare. Johnson teaches Jesus gave up his divinity, he believes he had to be born again, there is great emphasis on the supernatural and little on the bible. His daughter in law believes the Holy Spirit can be compared to a blue genie, his wife believes angels have to be awakened to bring on a revival. There is evidence here on my blog of these teachings and much more! And the things I don’t expose, the writers and researches of the links I provide do. It’s time to wake up Sam and see what is clearly before your eyes.
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Hello! How are you? My name is Douglas. And I want to say ask you a question? What is deception? When someone is deceived? They don’t know they are deceived. That’s what deception is. And the only way to become undecided is to read and study and know the scriptures. Not necessarily to know what a teacher or pastor or other person believes or preaches or teaches or says about the scriptures? Although yes god does give us revelation and teach us through other people at times. But how does a person know if what soneone is saying or teaching is really the truth? The person should know scriptures that are relevant to what is being said or taught by others? And the best way to do that like in a church setting? Is to have a pen and paper along with your Bible while your in church! And not things down and take notes. And I don’t mean to just take notes on what the pastor directs people to take notes on? But to jot down things and take notes on things that could be very remotely related to what pastor is saying? And then when you get home by yourself for some time? Grab your notes and open your Bible and talk with God and study those things through with God and his word! And also along with this it helps so much to look at Greek and Hebrew pertaining to the scriptures you are studying! I believe it’s essential! It’s easy to do on a site like blue letter Bible. And also depending on what your studying through? It also helps a lot to study and relate to church history. And as you do this I guarantee that the deception of bethel Church would be lifted off of you! You see I myself have thoroughly studied through doctrine, teachings, and beliefs etc. in relation to bill Johnson and bethel Church and the like. And there are several things concerning bill Johnson and bethel Church that do not live up with the scriptures and true biblical Christianity. And not that I’m saying that all the people commenting on McKaylas corner are or are not bias in some ways for or against bethel Church? Nor that they are or are not truly accurate in their post or comments concerning bethel Church? But I do know for a fact that concerning bethel Church? There are things that goes on and being taught that simply do not line up with the fullness of the scriptures. But now concerning you who is part of bethel Church? If you do come out from under deception? Then that does not necessarily mean for you to leave bethel Church? God could still want you to remain there to lovingly and humbly to show the truth to others? So just follow the Lord’s leading? I wish you the best! And thank you!
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Douglas, please give me a scripture that states a believer should remain in a church that teaches false doctrine. I guarantee you will not find one!
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Doug – Carefully pay attention –
Romans 16:17 Now I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and obstacles that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Turn away from them. 18For such as these are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.
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Hi m Malay. This is Douglas. Thanks for your reply! I am aware of the scripture you shared with me. All I’m saying is this. Like I said in my last post. I had situations in my own life where I was part of a church for a period of time who were teaching things that I knew were contrary to his word. And I did not immediately leave. I was only there for maybe a couple of months or so. And I used the time to talk with people there and point out to them the false doctrines that were being taught. And they also left the church. And ultimately yes it was god who opened their hearts to see the truth. But I know that God used me as part of showing them the truth. I myself did not get sucked into the false doctrine. So how do you explain what happened in the situation I was in? Because obviously god used me in the situation to help those people to see the truth and leave the church.
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Why do I have to provide an explanation?
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Wow, I’m very confused and seriously praying hard for the Jesus Christ of Nazareth the son of God almighty creator of the heavens and earth forgive me and my sins and take over my body!! Placing the armor of God upon me!
As I too seen the “blue light” and trans out after prayer meditation. I read a psalm verse and repeat the “OM” and vibrations etc. to “get in tune'”
I read a ton of Edward Cacey books, I thought geez… This guy is a pretty good man doing nothing but good right? But now sounds evil?… So confused as I read feeling this reassurance of my Trans and even being able to fall into a realm that I saw an old family member passed away years ago in heaven.
Once I read his books I felt a peace of mind like this must be okay maybe it’s a “gift” to explore. I had a negative experience at the age of 9 seeing a gost. The strangest part was the person not having past away.
I probably sound like I’m crazy. I also spine in tongues and the like later in life. I truly do feel we all have the potential to be “physic” if we lose ourselves and become “self-less” long enough.
I read the Bible every night and some mornings. I have been focusing on psalms lately considering this negative feeling of evil around after reading and digging into all this.
I’m extremely confused too with why it says God gave us the gift of the Holy Spirit in Chorinthians and namely the gift of tongues and discernment of spirits, the healing and laying of hands.
I can’t even sleep these days I’m so paranoid I’m going to see something or my body will be possessed. I have already had two encounters with spirits visually in my life. Trust me I don’t want to talk to any spirit or be a medium by any means!
Lastly, I already “checked myself” for every possible mental disease and disorder! Fortunately, that checked out well; unfortunately, I’m driving myself nuts with so much reading and decifering of my doings. Evil or heavenly?? Im I filled with some thing evil and need spiritual help!? I get so scared now it’s ridiculous!
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Help/Mel
Jesus doesn’t take over our bodies but rather it is a life walked out through understanding the teaching of the bible, being given the Holy Spirit as guidance and counsel. The writings of Cacey are not part of the Christian life and I would tell you to get rid of all of them and repent, coming full face to Christ if you haven’t already. Sometimes a lot of reading can prove confusing. Give yourself time to process in the knowledge that what God began in you He will complete, Phil 1:6.
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Mirin Dajo is the man’s name – interesting to read all the so-called rationalists desperate explanations.
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This may be out of place, but please allow me to ask: Some of us such as myself, have come out of Bethel type churches, but have found no place to attend. I have found that the churches either pretend to have God’s power, as Bethel does, or deny that God’s power is for today (such as most Baptist churches), or, most common, say it is for today, but that is only words, because they in fact do not have the power of God. A few places, such as Bethel, sometimes operate in demonic power. Several places in Scripture, the apostle Paul said that he came in the power of God, not just words (I Cor 2:4-5; I Thess 1:5). Of those who “deny the power of God”, II Tim 3:5 says to turn away. But therefore I am left with no place to attend. What should I do?
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This is for Sam, who wrote about liking Bethel, and not finding there the bad things spoken of here. Sam, I have a direct challenge for you: If you will be at Bethel main campus on a Sunday evening, I will meet you there to discuss the problems. Bethel was my home church for a couple of years untii the problems there upset my spirit so that I needed to leave. I am not one who is allegedly judging Bethel from the outside. I live close to Bethel, just a couple of miles south, between the mall and Trader Joe’s store. I have even bicycled to there in the past, going to visit at Heidi Baker’s world headquarters, which as you know, is in building 3 at Bethel Church. Sam, if you sincerely desire to know the truth, I am very willing to share with you, or if you want to meet with me elsewhere in Redding. I will agree with you that in Bethel you will find many, especially among BSSM foreign students, those who love God intensely, with their whole beings. I have made good friends with various ones, especially those from Scandanavia and central Europe. But then they leave to go home. At Bethel, in contrast with other churches, there is much excitement, but excitement does not nessessarily prove authenticity. Sam, if you are sincere in wanting to know the truth, my challenge to you stands. If, however, you do not have an intense love for the truth, you eventually will believe the lie and be damned. (II Thess. 2:10-12). May the Holy Spirit of Truth envelop your whole being. Let me know.
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Anastasia, did you meet Sam? That was so sweet to offer. I pray you continue to ‘snatch people from the fire’!
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JenJackCarver, I have not heard anything from Sam. We have not met. Very sad; his loss. Sam does not have my direct contact, except as M’Kayla allows it. But without Sam responding here, I am a bit sceptical if he is open to truth. Many Bethel people are not. If Sam will indicate that he is willing to meet me, and what he looks like, I could find him at Bethel on a Sunday evening, maybe outside the building.
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Well that is disappointing to hear. I always pray that people will come to know the truth. I was hoping this was going to be a great ending.
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For those of us who have never been to Bethel – or want to be, I think the testimony of Anastaysa of people who lived and breathed Bethel and have now left is very very powerful
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Hi I saw your post on your testimony on escaping Bethel and also I found a you tube video when you were on the radio talk show with the Escape the lie ministries. I just want say that wow! I totally agree with you on Bethel and Bill Johnson. I did 2 years of Bethel school of supernatural ministries and did my 3rd year internship in Cleveland, OH. Right now God has really been opening my eyes to those false teachings. And searching/discerning what is truth. What does the bible say? My church In Cleveland is so going down that road of Bethel Redding. People are incorporating John Crowder teachings, Rick Joyner, IHOP, mysticism, portals ministry, ect. It’s very scary. We need be to aware of what’s going on and know what is true and what not. What spirit are we using…the Holy Spirit or demonic? My friends are in the middle of this and I’m not sure how to tell them what they are doing isn’t right.
I can tell you more about my experience with Bethel Church. I just wanted to make short comment for now. Thanks for sharing your testimony. It’s helped. I’ve been researching a lot about this lately.
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Welcome roosp2001!<3
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Roops2001,
Would love to hear what your experience was like at bethel’s school of Supernatural. My father has contemplated going. This has greatly disturbed me.
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roosp2001 can I ask a question? What was it that led you to the point of questioning or opening your eyes to the false teaching of Bethel? Very glad you did though! Praise God
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So very excellent. We’ve done Biblical Christian Counseling for 26 years. Rarely do we warn someone not to go to a particular organization or church. That changed with the healing rooms and Bethel and the like. One of our staff wanted to go through the training for the healing rooms when it first started and was taught by the “big man” himself. What he was taught was appalling. We’ve found that any “healing” that occurs lasts for 90 days (why? I don’t know why that is the length, but you can almost clock it) then the person goes down hill and gets seven times worse. The stuff that comes out of Bethel is the same. 100% of the time, when we deal with certain strongholds, the scales come off their eyes…but until that is gone, it’s like pulling teeth to get them to see scriptural principles. When people travel down there, it’s almost a guarantee that one kind of person enters the building and a different one comes out. Thanks for writing.
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Thanks for your comment, Toni!
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I am not sure how I came across this site and I have read several posts but not near all. My question from what I read is this, now while I saw a mention of gold dust falling among other things, I remember seeing on TBN years ago that supposedly there was gold dust falling on them. I never believed that stuff but are you all saying that the Holy Spirit does not come upon people where they can not stand in His presence ? Are you saying God did not give us the gift of tongues and discernment of spirits, the healing and laying of hands ??
I know I dont believe in the name it and claim it stuff, but I do believe the Bible says God takes care of His own. So re we to pray in tongues or not pray in tongues ?
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No, I never said those thing however, I am not the author of this particular article. Neither did she say them.
How can I help you?
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if your praying in tongues is as per the experience of Pentecost then of course. If not, then don’t. Short answer I know, but always refer back to scripture first and foremost
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to ABC123. Many people, and denominations, believe that what is called tongues is the primary evidence of one being filled with the Holy Spirit. This is wrong. The primary evidence of one being filled with the Holy Spirit is .. being Holy!! A person who is not living a holy life, but speaks in “tongues”, and this continues as a way of life: their “tongues” is not from the Holy Spirit. You asked concerning speaking in tongues. This is the simple answer.
Please note that the Greek word translated “tongues” is the same word better translated as “languages”, and where we get our English phrase someone’s “mother tongue”, meaning the first language their mother taught them as a baby.
So when you see someone living in sin, and speaking in “tongues”, please be aware that whatever they are speaking, it is not from the Holy Spirit.
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Toni:
You wrote:
“when we deal with certain strongholds, the scales come off their eyes…but until that is gone, it’s like pulling teeth to get them to see scriptural principles. When people travel down there, it’s almost a guarantee that one kind of person enters the building and a different one comes out. ”
Thank you very much for writing this!!
It has greatly troubled me that when speaking with Bethel people (usually BSSM students) here in Redding, I cannot seem to make any permanent headway with them concerrning Bethel’s heresies. To put it bluntly, and probably most clearly, it seems that they get demons at Bethel. Until that problem is cleared up, no headway can be made with the person.
Could you explain about how you “deal with certain strongholds”, so that the [probably demonic] “scales come off their eyes”? I am vitally interested.
And if here is the wrong place, then I give M’Kayla permission to share privately with you my email address, so that you are free there to share in more detail.
It also interests me greatly about your 90 days rule. I will watch for that! Usually, however, those who go to Bethel for healing do not get what they need, and leave ill and devastated.
This is very important, and I look forward eagerly to your response!!
Thank you very much!
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These claims about strongholds and the 90 days do not line up biblically. We will be very careful in moving forward.
Thanks everyone.
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Really crazy. That”s how seduction can come to mix things deeply and subtly…
2 Thes. 2 is increasingly topical…
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What do you make of II Cor 10:4, ” …divine power to destroy strongholds.”?
But as for 90 days …that makes no sense to me alt all. Maybe a deception on top of another deception.
At Bethel there does seem to be the rare healing, but that may be in spite of Bethel, not because of them: for example, a (very rare) needy person coming in with a huge amount of faith on their own. And the rare healing I know of did not cease after “90 days”.
95+% of those desperate for healing do not get what they need from there at all.
That look of desolation and absolute despair is haunting, of those who spent all they had to get to visit Bethel, desperate for healing, and then not getting it, Very haunting: the shattered desolation of those people.
Does no one have the genuine authority from Jesus Christ to really heal these needy people, and make them whole???
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The doctrine is false, the healing is false, they follow the other jesus that Paul warned of, not that there could ever be another savior, but an impersonation of Him, leading the flock away – and so it goes.
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Thank you for posting this information. There is a kind of occult cancer spreading throughout the church and many of the cancerous roots seem to stem from Bethel, Bill Johnson and the false prophetic which is now all the rage and so tragically and effortlessly seems to be fooling so many of our brothers and sisters… Keep spreading the truth…
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Good you got out. Be part of a firebrand church that preaches revival and delivers people out of bondage! Jesus is coming back for a pure bride and there are many who have followed paganism and new age because they’re looking for a spiritual experience or eating from the tree of knowledge… who will be left behind. Sadly.
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Hi there. Thanks for sharing this. I wanted to ask you what your experience was after going through the fire tunnel? Was it a good feeling? Bad feeling? What exactly did you feel? Looking back do you think the devil was involved in this sort of thing?
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Fire tunnels can cause all sorts of different reactions. I have come to call it spiritual VD.
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I read through this, and I hate to be the one to tell you that you are wrong. I have been to Bethel many times, I have had God speak to me very clearly on all of my trip while I was there. Yes they are people, and not always perfect, but I promise you God is behind their movement, the signs wonders and miracles confirm it. I have seen some of those miracles with my own eyes.
I would ask you to consider one thing: It would be blasphemy to call the work of God Evil. For your own sake, get in your prayer closet and ask God to show you if you are wrong about this. I know for sure he is behind Bethel, I would never say these things about them. I don’t live in Redding, I live in Phoenix, so i’m not a Bethel member, but I do know that I have encountered God powerfully in that place each time I go visit.
God Bless you
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Monte, I searched the bible for the teachings and did not find them there. So, what does that say?
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Hmmm… where is the fruit? I wonder when I see the fruit of occult’s like the church of Scientology I see things like aborted babies, child molestation, rape, manipulation and abuse in every form.
What is the fruit of Bill Johnson and Bethel? Are people’s lives truly being changed by Bethel? Or is it all fake? Has anyone posting on this site ever gone to experience this “cult?”
It sounds to me your church leaders regrettably took something so wonderful as healings(which God is still doing today), and miracles and tries to duplicate it with a formula instead of producing real fruit.
In my research I have found story after verified medical story of healings and miracles from this particular group of people.
If they are a cult fine, but their fruit proves otherwise. Sure there will be counterfeits and but no one ever God healed by never praying and asking God for it. “Ask and you shall receive”
Maybe Bill Johnson is more like Jesus than we’d all like to admit, because didn’t Jesus get get called a fraud, blasphemous and ultimately crucified by the Pharisees or so called religious experts?
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I started my blog to warn people about teachings that are found in Bethel after having been delivered out from them personally. It is sad that so many people are quick to think, as I was, this movement if from the Lord, when in fact, it is a counterfeit. Compare scripture, that is where the truth is and where the ways of Jesus are explained.
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The Bible doesn’t say signs and wonders are “the fruit”. Instead Matt 7 says,
16By their FRUIT you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?17Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.” (This is where people stop, but we have to read on to understand what the fruit is. ….)
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one WHO DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER my Father who is in heaven.22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’”
We test the doctrine of Bill Johnson, not his works. If you start down that path you will be deceived bc the Bible says the Antichrist will deceive with “GREAT signs and wonders”. Remember, the devil disguises himself as an angel of light.
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Sounds like a move of God to me but I got saved during the Jesus people movement. It was wonderful to be set free from bondages and to truly die to self. I thank God for Bethel God is being glorified in and through them. The leaders never put down other ministries. In they have even been financial support to other churches in their area. Praise God for Bethel and Bill Johnson. Bless you I pray you encounter Jesus. I call out the gold in you I see you are very articulate.
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Janice, would the gold you are calling out in me be the gold dust of Bethel?? Really my friend, have you read the scriptures that teach we are to judge teaching, prophecy and warn others of error? I was part of the Jesus Movement too. Bethel and the rest are nothing like what happened during that time.
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Thanks for posting, No joke this is literally what happened to our church in Australia, we left a year ago now, Bethel and it’s practices and curriculums are invading everywhere it’s like a Trojan horse. We feel the same about the culture of honor, it some how has the opposite effect and becomes a culture of dishonor?
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I think that without transformation through Christ, many things that are given by God (grace, abundance) are perverted because they are filtered through the lens of the flesh. There are elements of the church today that are a perversion, but it’s been that way since the 12 Apostles were around in the flesh and you see it in their writings.
There are biblical accounts of similar things (peter pulling the coin out of the fish’s mouth, Phillip disapearing from the Ethiopian eunich, Paul’s hankerchiefs healing people, etc. . ) and I don’t think you can look at a miracle and judge it unless holy spirit tells you to. Especially never speaking to someone or being there to see it. Pharisees did that kind of stuff and the church is still doing it today.
A lack of transformation has led many people down the wrong path. A miracle done by a person in the name of Jesus isn’t a confirmation for their life lived. And a fear of deception has also led people down the wrong path. Causing judgement, bitterness, and the opposite of Jesus said we were to be know and identified. The scriptures are clear that we are only to fear God.
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Nov. 9,2018. Just attended a Ken Fish service and there were no incantations or odd language – the majority was a teaching from the holy scriptures including Mark 15. We need to guard against false teachings and prophets but not go too far and condemn the good alongside the bad. Pray for God to give you discernment so you can test these prophets, based on scriptue and The Holy Spirit. Don’t forget, Jesus was and continues to be called a false prophet and promoter of a cult, in present times but those claims are based on tradition, religion, and secular beliefs. The real test is scripture and personal prayer. If someone goes to a bar to talk about Christ’s saving grace, that doesn’t make them an alcoholic.
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Who is Ken Fish?
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Dear Brothers & Sisters in Christ, be careful when speaking or writing harshly about fellow believers. We ARE in the last days but remember that one of Satan’s weapons is division among the church. Don’t take another persons word at face value. Search God’s word for truth. Encourage one another in these last days.
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The exact reason for my blog.
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M’Kayla, your article is a good wake-up call to the body of Christ to test all prophets with scripture. However, you begin by saying Bill Johnson came to your town for a big meeting that you did not attend. Let us all be about God’s business, not wasting precious time criticizing.
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Jim Edwards, what are you talking about? This is your third comment on the same thread and for what? Have you read anything that has been stated here or are you just tooting your own horn?
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Jim Edwards, Bethel was my home church, where I attended for a few years. I saw firsthand the many heresies there until I had to leave that church, even though I lived only two miles away, in Redding. Jim, you are not in a good position to defend what is happening at Bethel. The heresies are many and devious. As to the gold dust, I was there in the middle of it (micro-sized gold colored plastic confetti that floats in the air). But my God never does any “magic tricks”, or supernatural things just to tittilate people’s yearning for the supernatural. When in the Gospels you find Jesus doing supernatural things for people, it is ALWAYS to meet a dire need, generally healing of some kind. But I did not see much if any healing at Bethel. Lots of talk of healings “out there” someplace that could not be verified. It hurt me greatly to see so many desperate people in dire need of healing depart from Bethel disappointed and devastated. Jesus commanded us to judge (people, churches, ministries) by their fruit. What fruit here? False doctrine, false prophecy, a lack of Galatians 5:22-23 fruit. Bethel displays a distinct lack of the fear of God ( To understand that, read John Bunyans’s “A Treatise on the Fear of God”). So Jim Edwards, you seem to be simply trying to be contrary, without proper evidence.
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Thank you Larry.
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To start a little sub-theme:
What do you think about the stuff what Bethel Music and connected artists produce there?
My situation is, that my community sings songs from Bethel from time to time. Nobody but me knows from the danger teaching from Bethel.
Do you think it is dangerous to sing the songs of Bethel Music? I mean, without the context and separated of Bethel mindset the songs are good as far as I can see it. “No longer Slaves” or “Reckless Love”.
However, I think nobody should support Bethel by buying the music, but that’s another thing.
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They preach a different Jesus and they worship him as well. The two cannot be separate and I have found many of lyrics to be unbilbical, sounding more like a human love affair than worship of a Creator/Savior.
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Lutz, I am not going to post your last comment because we do not base biblical truth on feelings, experiences and emotions or what we believe to be right. WE GO TO THE WORD OF GOD. So, let me encourage you to compare Hillsong, Bethel, etc. words’ that are found in their songs and in their doctrine with the word of God. Consider what true worship is – Worship of the Most High, not of ourselves and see the truth there. I will not go round and round with you as it is apparent you do not want to hear the truth. If you don’t have anything of value to contribute please don’t bother posting. I will simply delete the comment without reading it.
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Lutz, I remember one time after a certain piece was performed at Bethel, I remarked to one of the leaders closeby that that particular song was demonic. He had no response, but hurried away, and I never saw him again. I am sure other songs also were, but that one was obvious to me. So, for others, I believe they are in grave danger by using any music coming from there.
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M’Kayla
Thank you for sharing and I wish I had seen your posting back in 2016 when I was sucked into a church like Bethel. It’s teaching and practices were similiar to Bethel as the Pastor was ” anointed” there. But God have a plan, only when you walk through the path & tested then one get to see the truth and become more wise.
I’m praying for the others now who are still inside. Their own greed for Power of the supernatural realm had blinded them. Oh by the way, their ” In-thing” now is Fire-starter & Open Spiritual Realm. It seems the devil is very creative just like Handphones they keep upgrading with New design and a New name when it’s just a Handphone after all.
God bless you , I admire your boldness & may you continue to keep punching these scam bags of Fake manifestations.
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Thank you Joanna. Many blessings. xoxo
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Hi, I just noticed that there’s tarot cards advertisement on your page! Yikes
Anyways, hi, I am in Canada and my former church was heavily bringing Bethel teachings and music and strategies in. I regret staying as long as I did after starting to feel like things were off. I didn’t read my Bible! I couldn’t do it any more, no interest in it, because this relationship with jesus was full of grace and didn’t need it….. yeah, it was the only way I could keep swallowing the nonsense.
Part of the problem is that my father attends there, he married the mother of the pastor, so I don’t think I’ll see him get free. Please join me to pray for the scales to fall from all of their eyes! Only God can do it, because from my human point of view, this looks bleak.
I’ve had nobody I can voice my doubts or thoughts to either. I know that I need to find a new church home, but i’m honestly so hesitant because this stuff is everywhere.
Please help me, this is so difficult.
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Lisa, I apologize for the advertisements. I have no control over them. It’s another reminder of how popular the occult has become and we know its growing each day.
I am thankful the Lord brought you out of the false church. He will be your Teacher until and if He decides to lead you to another fellowship. For now, sit at His feet and learn. I’m here. ❤
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I thank God for bringing me out of a church and home group that was into them things. All I hear is Passion Translation this, Passion Translation that, Dan Mohler this, Dan Mohler that. I’m skeptical about all that stuff, because how does it draw people to Christ?
Hearing that stuff never settled well with me (in fact it agitates me.) I’ve been through “fire tunnels.” and I’m like I don’t know how I’m supposed to feel or act. I’ve received “Impartations” and never gone anywhere with it. After hearing about this prosperity gospel from a non Christian, I looked it up, and learned about the Word of Faith movement and where the idea came from.
In that time I wasn’t really reading much scripture, because I wanted to know about things going on in the church and the technology behind theology and other stuff like that, So I read about scripture, but not directly to the scriptures.
After looking into the expose’ of that, I started to slowly drift away from the church I’ve grown up in. I also saw how disconnected from everyone at church I was. I remember waking up on Sunday mornings, wishing I slept in all day. and I had no sense of joy or purpose. I resolved to resign from the media team. When I talked with a friend from another church I decided to go there, First sign was God telling me that i belong there. Then I visited another church around the reason, and when I went there, God said I also belong there.I cried both times when I started going there. With my friends church I go there regularly, then I started going on and off with the other church. God was preparing the season I’m in now back then.
This year I had a rough start, lots of stuff went down in my personal life, that got me to lose everything in order to gain everything I need, I ended up completely moving away from the church I grew up in into the church that God had for me this season, and because I got connected there quickly (people would talk to me and meet me where I’m at) I started to see Gods goodness more clearly.
Then I was still part of the home group from the church I grew up in, so I just remember distancing myself, answering questions and moving the discussion along too quickly, because I was tired of how slow everyone was at understanding what I already know, and these people have lived more years than me.
The people there dismissed my personal convictions about attributes of God, like His righteous judgement / anger, the glory of God being so great that angels hid their faces like we don’t directly look into the sun, and that accepting Christs death and resurrection is not enough to distinguish yourself as a Christian, because you need to obey the commandment “love others as I have loved you” (which sums up the ethics of the torah, which is worth exploring in order to better distinguish yourself as a Christian.)
The next one I went to bring a friend to see if he has the same sense that I do about their home group. Who would’ve thought? they weren’t there, and no body bothered to tell me about it even though I went every time over the last 2 years. My friend told me it was a sign, and my mum said she wondered why I continued to bother going there. later that night I cried to God telling Him that I put my trust in the wrong places and with the wrong people, and made a vow to only trust Him.
The next day I start a 12 hour study which I was grinding it over 3 days. Frustrated with all the people I was associated with, I made a post in a group starting with: modern day Christianity is nearly full of complacent anti-Semitic gnostics..
I asked God to undo all that stuff I let in my life, because I had no Idea what I was letting in. I also found inspiration from critical thinkers returning to Christianity, which inspired me to read Gods word and study the scriptures. I have peace and joy now, and am free from anything dishonest including dishonest motivations.
I also have no trust in listening to Dan Mohler, because so many people have quoted him in the life group I used to go to, and to me that says Dan is only bringing glory to himself and not to God. God allows me to think for myself, and I know I’m always free to put God first in everything. God bless.
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I’m glad you’re studying scripture and seeking God about these things. He is faithful and His Holy Spirit will lead you in all truth. I also left “Word of Faith,” because I prayed and God showed me it is just “New Age,” “The Secret,” “A Course in Miracles” or disguised Gnosticism repackaged with Christian lingo.
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I went to this church a few days ago in Redding CA. This Johnson guy, very inappropriate dressed for a pastor was up there telling of his healing a kid with a leg that wasnt growing the same lenth as the other. I saw him smirk or start to smile as he would get to these wopper healings i remember 2 but the smiles seemed to be a strange emotion that i detected was “duping delight”. I looked the guy up on line and discovered he is a charismatic wierdo that down plays Bible understanding . The strange prayer orgies and then of course the stupid music made me feel sick.
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You were right to look him up. I came out of the same kinds of teachings that he supports.
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