Found a new blog that a commenter has started based on her experience with a pregnancy counseling organization given over to the teachings and methods of Bill Johnson – Bethel.
You may have read some of her comments here and the situations she encountered while still with the center. She has since left and is speaking out against the heresy that has become so prevalent, urging Christians to be aware of the organizations they support and not to offer through blind eyes. I concur.
The blog is Godlee4life.
m'kayla's korner 
Ain’t it the truth how some will jump on and support any bandwagon that says Christ and not first check out the fruit of that person or organization.
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Yes, many of us have fallen into that. We learned the hard way!
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Hey Mkayla,
I went ahead and posted the article I wrote for the newspaper. Please be in prayer for me, concerning what God is leading me to do now. I’m not giving up on those people, in fact I believe I can help them more from a distance now. I’m just planting seeds, that’s all.
You know, it was physically and emotionally sickening to see all the flattering, manipulative,
swindling that went on to get supporters. How sick to use Christianity as a front to push a political agenda to build an earthly kingdom built on sand.
A facade that exploits vulnerable young women and their children—no— I can’t go for that. I won’t stand for God’s Word to be continually blasphemed without a fight at least. It’s not about winning that’s for sure—I already know God wins—I read the end of the Book!! I just keep remembering that part in Revelations that talks about how God will allow the evil to prevail over the saints for a while—but in the end—-we win and Jesus is our prize. God Bless
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I’m so glad you posted the article. I wonder if all the preg centers use the same kinds of money raising tactics.
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mkayla,
I’m glad you’re thinking along those lines too—what’s up w/ all those church funded pregnancy centers anyway? Why would pregnant women be such a target for a possibly hidden agenda? And why are churches not wanting to deal with them directly? Seems like they are just wanting to donate the money so someone else can deal with them.
And Think about it, the directors in these facilities know that and many take advantage. Women are the most vulnerable, physically, mentally, and emotionally when they are pregnant! Perfect candidates for the mental passivity required for the occult practices that are entering the Christian arena via the River, the Vineyard, Word of Faith, etc. Besides, when they finally give birth, they are so busy w/ the baby, they wouldn’t be likely to come out publicly and disclose the type of counseling they received there. Hmmm.
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Hey Mkayla,
Something strange happened to me the other night as I was watching “Wretched”/Todd Friel. He warned viewers from the get go, to be careful not to allow yourself to be hypnotized by the clip they were going to show of the “Jesus Culture” awakening (i think). So I prayed, God please don’t allow me to be hypnotized. It started out w/ Missy Phelps (can’t remember if that was her name or not) playing the keyboard. It was WIERD. It was the same tone, same rythym over and over. It was kept the same speed—perfectly. I can’t describe it really, but anyway then after a few minutes of that, this huge crowd starts swaying in rythym and raising their hands, etc. The lights were low and different colored lights were slowly flowing through the crowd. She sung these words over and over and over——-“Listen to the rythm, the rythm of Heaven” —-then a guy comes on stage “prophecying”—anyway, while this music was going on, even though I was trying to resist it and pray against it, I felt drawn by it and began speaking in tongues (something I haven’t been doing for a while now, waiting for God to show me if it’s really of Him). While this is happening, I asked God to show me what was going on. I began to remember the first time I began speaking in tongues out loud at a worship service—–the woman on the keyboard was playing the same repetitive tune, over and over again. I remember the look on her face—–trance like. I rem. wondering why she didn’t act overjoyed that I had just received the “baptism w/ the Holy Spirit”——–but she just kept the same blank look and the other church I actually joined—-same thing. The pianist constantly kept a blank look while playing repetitive music.
I’ve really been praying about this. Asking God—–did I receive a counterfeit? was I just hypnotized? I have so many questions, it makes me want to cry. If that wasn’t of God on TV, why would I feel compelled to speak in tongues, and if it was God, why would he allow heretics to do that? On and on go the questions.
After Todd Friel came back on and going over it all logically, I began to feel I was coming to my senses more and more able to evaluate w/ a sound mind.
I’ve talked to my husband about it and he (like me) thinks we just still need to wait upon God and see what else He shows us. I do truly believe those people were being hypnotized, I truly, truly do. The thing that I’m struggling w/ is the real possibility that a gift a thought I had may be counterfeit. Or could the devil just be messing w/ me.
I’ve been going over the vss. in 1 Cor. 14: 2, 15, etc.—-if tongues were just another language to use w/ foreigners, why would there be “Speaking mysteries to God, praying in the spirit, etc.??
Forgive me for being so confused right now. This is how I learn. I go over things back and forth for a while, until I get a clear answer from God’s Word. This is what I’m dealing w/ right now. By the way keep praying about that article, it still hasn’t went thru. Only God can make it happen. God Bless You and keep you oxox
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2 Corinthians 11:3-5
3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!
My friend, it is a great possibility the Lord took you at your request to be shown the truth and did just that. After all, just the atmosphere alone shows another spirit is at work. I believe there are different meanings to the gift of or the ability to discern spirits. I had a similar situation recently in which I could actually feel the thing. It did shake me because I attributed it back to the old days of manifesting. With the help of others I was able to realize what I had encountered was the presence of another spirit which was not the same as the manifestations I had suffered under. I do believe this was discernment.
In sorting things out we can swing from one extreme to the other, but we need to bear in mind we are still speaking of the supernatural, in beings unseen. It may be true that you were speaking mysteries to God. I cannot say as I still wrestle with the tongues gifts. It is an area of great needed study and I would encourage you to see if you can pull out the differences in the two.
Be at peace as you have asked the Lord to guide you and He will! He will! Stay in touch with me on this.
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Mkayla,
Thanks for your article “Touched by Another Spirit”—-it really helps to be given God’s Word during confusing times. It’s good to know that although God allows evil in the world around us, He will protect from the evil ever having complete dominion over us. This is what I have to remember, while I feel this way. There really is simplicity in Christ—-and it comforts me. Whether I speak in tongues or not—-I realize, what ever I do, to do it for God’s glory. And this is something just between me and Him, because it’s not like I’m doing it out loud in front of people. So I’m the only one being affected, which is a relief.
My husband and I were talking and he asked me what I was thinking when this was occuring and what the fruits of it were. Truthfully, I felt I was being drawn into heaven, in an exalted kind of way I guess. The focus was definitely not in this realm. Whatever it was, you’re right it was supernatural. I really pray for discernment and patience.
I have to say, I have come a long way. For me to be able to sit back and evaluate a spiritual experience, to “test the spirits” and wait upon God—–is truly a miracle in itself. Because, I used to just automatically assume any spiritual experience was of God. There’s good and evil in the supernatural realm and sometimes we may even experience a mixture of both?? Perhaps this is what God is doing in my life—allowing me to have experiences to test?? Afterall, He is in control. It also feels as though I’m being tested.
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Hi would you send the link that you were referring to? I can’t seem to find it in a search. Thanks!
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Thanks for your comment. I just want to remind you all regarding all the work you did while at the pregnancy center was also through using a form of discernment. It is true, we can be deceived, but when we repent and set our focus on Christ, on learning the true spiritual gifts, for example, we will find our answers.
Blessings.
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You know, I have had the tongues to occur while discerning and sensing evil. It’s been pretty powerful at times. Come to think of it, that day I received the “baptism w/ Holy Spirit”—I was discerning that that church was lukewarm. The word lukewarm kept coming up in my mind as I was speaking the word “La dencia” in a tongue–or something like that. Still not sure what that means. Just like that song—perhaps I was sensing evil as I was drawn into the spiritual realm??
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If I were you I would do some study in the area of “speaking mysteries to God” and “praying in the spirit”. Altho I have studied tongues in the sense of public speaking, I haven’t done that end of it yet, and I am hesitant to steer you one way or the other. I will admit my ignorance in this area as a safety net for us both and anyone reading.
I will point out that in these verses there is great emphasis placed on order, and on the necessary edification of others, and their understanding, rather than on the actual gift a person has. The resounding focus seems to fall back to being orderly, considering the others in the room above and beyond the individual who is speaking or manifesting the gift. So, tho you were alone, I would ask how you were edified or even if the opposite occurred. And again, the atmosphere, not being one in which the disciples would have been a part of, this seems to pop into my mind. I often refer to them when I am hashing things out. But I do not believe they would have spent one moment in a place full of heresy as this one was.
I did some study in the area of the woman remaining silent…you know…and found that this was because the women the scripture referred to was specific to a group of women who sounded like the pagans. Paul would rather have had silence from them than to have them sound like pagans in the church. It was a great point and I think it applies. Not that you sound like the pagans, but the environment on the video certainly must! It is a great point because it shows how far we have fallen in all that has been allowed in. No wonder there is such confusion!
I hope that makes sense to you. If not, let me know and I will attempt to clarify.
I’m still waiting for the link! Thanks! 🙂
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This from Pat – we were discussing it – 🙂
I think she is on the right track as far as discerning and waiting on God. It could be that watching the Wretched tv program was one way for God to show her maybe how susceptible she is to the hypnotic effects of those “worship” services. To test and try the spirits with the Word of God , just like she did with the ladies at the pregnancy center when she asked them point blank “who do you say Jesus is?”
and they could not or would not answer her, that’s what she needs to do in this situation also. Although I’m not sure how she would go about it, other than praying that or saying that in her head. Tongues is not my strong suit, as it has always been a source of such abuse that I have pretty much stayed away from it, so I’m not sure how much help I can be. I hope this helps some, I will keep it in prayer and pray for you and wisdom for us all. 🙂
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I just wanted to give my view about tongues here.
There are most certainly counterfeit tongues — the Mormons can speak in “tongues” as can false teachers that are getting their doctrine from demons. I don’t know if anyone has ever heard of…oh, I can’t even remember the name of the group right now….the lady’s name was Apostle Joanne Cremer…anyway, she was on MySpace and was spreading her false doctrine to people there. One of the people she contacted was a friend of mine. I found a website by a couple who had been deceived by that cult, and it was bad, bad stuff. It was all about angels and demonic doctrine about becoming one with the eastern religion type god. Anyway, that cult taught that tongues are necessary for salvation. I think some pagan type religions can also speak in tongues…as followers of some eastern religions. Obviously, anyone under any of these teachings speaking in tongues has a counterfeit tongues.
However, it’s possible that a believer can pray in tongues for their edification. For example, what if someone wanted to pray against false teaching, in the presence of someone who was preaching false stuff, but didn’t feel safe to speak the words out loud, and didn’t want to pray silently? Perhaps the Holy Spirit can intercede and help you pray in tongues in those types of situations. You might be able to express in your mind what you want to pray about, yet the words that come out might be tongues.
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Arwen, that is indeed what we are trying to figure out. What scriptures can you offer us?
Thanks
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Well, I think the primary text for spiritual gifts is 1 Corinthians, specifically 1 Cor. 12:1-14:40.
I’ll quote from the NASB, because it’s supposed to be one of the most accurate translations available…and even theologically liberal scholars accept it as a good translation. It was put out by a group of theologically conservative scholars who thought that the Revised Standard Version was too liberal. (Any translation will do…and it would be a good idea to compare them all with each other.)
http://www.biblegateway.com/ is a good place to compare translations
I think we need to first look at a bigger picture on the subject — and then specifically look at how those can be applied to individual spiritual gifts
1.) What is the biblical purpose of the spiritual gifts?
2.) What would it mean for specific gifts to be used according to that purpose?
Since the specifics of what using the individual gifts isn’t laid out in Scripture, I think we need to make sure that the above two things are addressed. Paul didn’t go into detail about what it looks like to see each of the biblical gifts in operation, but he did give us an overall picture.
Read all of 1 Corinthians 12:1-14:40 to put it all into context, and to get the big picture, but I will hlghlight what I find.
from chapter 12:
4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. 7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
Verse 7 says that the gifts are given for the common good. I don’t think that this necessarily means that gifts can’t be used for your own personal good. If the gifts are used for your own personal good, then you can use that for the good of the church. In fact, I would say that if they are used for the common good, then they must be used for individual good as well. It would be very difficult to have one without the other. Now, this doesn’t prove it…but I do know that we as Christians are to live in community with other believers. We are supposed to be building each other up and strengthening each other, challenging each other to grow closer to God. To me, that’s what common good means, and that seems to be how Paul explains it in the rest of the letter. It seems to be how he operationally defines it.
12 For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many. 15 If the foot says, “Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. 16 And if the ear says, “Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired. 19 If they were all one member, where would the body be? 20 But now there are many members, but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; or again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary; 23 and those members of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable, 24 whereas our more presentable members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked, 25 so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
So, this is just adding an explanation to the statement he already made — that all the gifts are used for the common good. If we look at verse 25, it says “so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.” So…true biblical gifts aren’t divisive, but rather allow the church to truly function.
Again, he explains his position in the rest of the chapter. He builds up his case to : 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way.”
I think what he was doing was specifically addressing an error in the Corinthian church. They seemed to value the gift of tongues above any of the other gifts. He affirmed that the Holy Spirit gave gifts in chapter 12 (and yes, I know that the original letter wasn’t divided up into chapters), and that the Holy Spirit gives many gifts. Not everyone has the same gifts, and that is how it is supposed to be. I think modern charismatic and Pentecostal churches would do well to actually read 1 Corinthians, as it specifically addresses the overemphasis on tongues that is so prevalent today. Since our specific topic is tongues for this as well…..let’s put what Paul said here in context with the gift of tongues.
1.) When tongues are given, they are for the common good.
2.) Tongues are not the only spiritual gift, nor does the Holy Spirit give everyone the ability to speak in tongues. Rather, they just one of many gifts. All the gifts work together in the church for its good.
3.) Tongues are not meant to be divisive.
Okay, so going on with more of 1 Corinthians: (this is chapter 13 now)
1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Yes, I know that some people interpret that to mean that when the Bible was completed, all of these gifts stopped. But, I don’t think that that is what this passage means. Knowledge certainly didn’t stop once the Bible was completed, and I know that people are still healed, and I know that the gifts still do exist. I think instead of saying that the gifts will stop, Paul’s trying to say that the gifts only go so far…I think it’s referring to when we are actually with Jesus in heaven…or when He comes at the Second Coming because of the for now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known….” It seems to be a stretch to say that that’s referring to the completed Bible.
Anyway, the emphasis here seems to be on love. Displaying any gift, including tongues, without love does nothing for anyone. The gifts are meaningless without love. Then Paul goes on to define what love is and looks like. Love is superior to any spiritual gift and will endure forever. Faith and hope are also important, and Paul seems to see them as superior to any spiritual gift as well. Love is the greatest, though.
So, then, any real spiritual gift from God should reflect what love is. That makes sense, as love is one of the fruits of the Spirit as well. If a person is using the gift properly, the person should be displaying real love, as defined in 1 Corinthians here.
Now, I do think there could be a difference between misusing a spiritual gift and demonic, counterfeit gifts….but I think the line is very narrow. Humans are still sinful, so they can be gifted and fall into sin. However, I do have to wonder about the source of a spiritual gift if someone is using a gift and doesn’t reflect 1 Corinthian’s definition of love at all. I think if a person is operating in a gift from God, they are definitely going to show aspects of love. If they keep on getting spiritual gifts or displaying them more and more, and their life does not show love, that should be a big red flag.
It seems to me that many of these people who are involved in Pentecostal and charismatic movements are arrogant, boastful, selfish, rejoice in unrighteousness, hate truth, act very unbecomingly, etc. That’s just the general pattern of these people’s “ministries.”
From 1 Corinthians chapter 14
1 Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation. 4 One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.
Okay, now Paul gets into a little of the specifics about tongues, but still leaves a lot open.
For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries
This doesn’t forbid private tongues, but it doesn’t specifically endorse them either. Paul simply says those who speak in a tongue speak to God, not to people. People can’t understand. However, God can, and the person is able to speak in his spirit to God.
“But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation. 4 One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.”
There we go…..so…someone who speaks in tongues doesn’t directly edify the church because no one can understand. Rather, tongues are for edification of the believer. I don’t think that is referring to the type of tongues in which people hear people speaking in their own language because, otherwise, it WOULD be edifying to the church, and the listener would be able to understand clearly. This is what we’re looking for. I forgot that Paul laid this out like this.
But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation. 4 One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.
Hmmm, it seems like the church cannot be edified by tongues unless there is an interpreter. So….Paul doesn’t condemn private tongues without interpretation. He said that it is edifying to the person, but not really to anyone else.
6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, what will I profit you unless I speak to you either by way of revelation or of knowledge or of prophecy or of teaching? 7 Yet even lifeless things, either flute or harp, in producing a sound, if they do not produce a distinction in the tones, how will it be known what is played on the flute or on the harp? 8 For if the bugle produces an indistinct sound, who will prepare himself for battle? 9 So also you, unless you utter by the tongue speech that is clear, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. 10 There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of languages in the world, and no kind is without meaning. 11 If then I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be to the one who speaks a barbarian, and the one who speaks will be a barbarian to me. 12 So also you, since you are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek to abound for the edification of the church.
3 Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also. 16 Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying? 17 For you are giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not edified. 18 I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all; 19 however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue.
Here, Paul is saying that tongues really are not the highest spiritual gift. Again, they don’t benefit anyone else unless there is an interpreter. In the actual church, it’s much better to speak out loud in a language that people understand. Speaking in tongues in church doesn’t do any good, otherwise. Again, this doesn’t say anything against private tongues — where no one except God hears you. You’re not doing it for a show, to make yourself look good, but rather, just because you feel led to do it. I think that that is open to using private tongues in that way. It’s not condemned, and it doesn’t go against the character of Scripture.
Moving on:
20 Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; yet in evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature. 21 In the Law it is written, “BY MEN OF STRANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, AND EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME,” says the Lord. 22 So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe. 23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; 25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.
26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; 28 but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment. 30 But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; 33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
39 Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues. 40 But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner.
Paul does, there, forbid speaking in tongues in church without interpretation. Paul says that the person may speak to himself and to God. There he does specifically condone private tongues. The church service is supposed to be orderly, not having chaos reign.
I think that since the Holy Spirit is the giver of spiritual gifts that people possessing true gifts should also generally show the fruit of the Spirit. (Read Galatians 5 for more information about that)
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Thanks for this reiteration of Scripture. “To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even thier mind and conscience are defiled” Titus 1:15
So it comes down to the heart. Perhaps those who are in false religions—- their speaking in tongues is defiled. However, those in the truth, purified by God are perhaps speaking in tongues in purity.
All I know is that God will work all things for good for those who love Him, those called according to His purpose. I pray that God purifies any gifts that He has given me.
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