A True “Middle Ground”

A little Q&A with coffee this morning – and yes, much more could be said, maybe from me, maybe from my readers…

The “Q”:

In all of my studies, I have found a “civil war” going on. The Pentecostals think the non-Pentecostals are “lifeless”, and the non-Pentecostals believe the Pentecostals are “demonically influenced”. Isn’t there any true middle ground?
I believe in the Baptism of the Holy Ghost as taught in the Scriptures (beyond just what a person receives at the time of salvation). I believe in the demonstration of all 9 “gifts” of the Spirit. I also have difficulty believing that a Christian, regardless of their personal area of growth, can easily lose their salvation just because they’re deceived in some areas (aren’t we all?). God is FAITHFUL … Jesus didn’t die on the cross just so Satan could “steal” us away again after salvation … what sort of joyful assurance is that?!
But to be certain, I am totally disconnected from the likes of Todd Bentley, NAR, IHOP, Bethel, WOF, Dominionism, Prosperity, Latter Rain …et al. I believe these movements, as such, are playing right into the hands of the endtime Antichrist! But none of these movements can undo what God has already spoken in His Word!
MK … I enjoy your blog and read it often … but is there such a thing as a Pentecostal Baptist?? (tongue in cheek, here) 🙂
Would greatly appreciate a response!

The “A”:

Tim, while reading your comment and drinking my coffee this morning I gave a little chuckle at “Pentecostal Baptist”. I get it. My readers who have experienced these thing probably get it too. 🙂 I had a great response all ready and while doing a search I clicked on the tab I was writing from, and poof! just like that, my response went into cyberspace. This, not for the first time since the beginning of my blogging days! 😦 (In retaliation, and because I am feeling a bit vindictive to my own slop of hand quicker than the eye, I will be putting up new articles to cover those topics I only touched on in my lost comment to you.) But, for now, this –

It comes to mind from Ephesians 4

1Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

When too much emphasis is placed in one area and not enough in another, the doctrine becomes out of balance. We have a disunity, a division of the church which Christ established to be as one. We can no longer dwell in unity with one another because we cannot agree. But the bible is the final authority in these things. Of course, we are not speaking of the false teachers and prophets – heretics – in this situation, only the “denominations” which in my opinion Satan has ruled as authority. Non believers are not stupid. They hear the arguments, see the differing opinions, and run in the opposite direction. The church is weakened, no longer as effective as it once was and we all whine and cry why we do not see things done as written in the new testament, the book of Acts…we need to wake up. And there we see the gifts have not ceased at all, but are not in operation to the extent they should be, could be, because man in his stupidity, his sin, his pride has gotten in the way of God. Harsh? Yes!

If we just stop and think for a moment, what is our title exactly? In the old days it was referred to as “The Way”. I kinda like the ring to that. After all, Jesus is the WAY, the truth and the life…hmm… We are called Christians; called by His name and that is what we are. We are not Pentecostal, Baptist, Lutheran, Assembly of God. Those are demon inspired from division, set up by man from the result of becoming unteachable one to another. And we see those denominations falling even as we speak. The heretics (some of which you named and I have exposed here) have finally have invaded the denominations. One has to wonder if this could very well have been Satan’s intent from the beginning. Divide and conquer.

We, are the true church.

I am glad you enjoy my blog. 🙂
Peace be with you and stay tuned – I’m not done.

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34 thoughts on “A True “Middle Ground”

  1. I so agree with this. I feel a bit like a Pentecostal Baptist. Both sides are partly right and partly wrong. The Pentecostal side is right in believing God can do great things even today but sadly discernment is lacking. Baptists are right in holding up the Bible but wrong ib throwing the baby with the bath water.

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    • Discernment – a very key word, but again can be used in different ways. When I disagree with some peoples involved in some of the false teaching then I am told that “you are not discerning the truth,” When I point out that there is deception then that is because i am at fault. You just can not win. My background was Catholic (just for regard that is past history!!) but during receiving deliverance was told so much about breaking off from Rome, Spirit of Jezebel, Babylonian, all the freemasonry etc etc. And when I did not feel comfortable with these things – it was my discernment that was at fault! I thought, funny I thought that I became a Christian to love the Lord my God with all my heart, soul and mind and now I am being told that to be an “effective” Christian I had so much more to do – and this was all about appropriating for what Christ did on the cross. false false false teaching!

      Being from the UK I am very proud ( not full of pride 🙂 ) to know that from our shore we have had the Leonard Ravenhill who I believe possessed true Biblical discernment. Let me share just two quotes for you:

      The world has lost the power to blush over its vice; the Church has lost her power to weep over it.
      Is the world crucified to you tonight? Or does it fascinate you?

      Hope that blesses someone

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      • Tony, When you bring someone to the truth and they shoot you down for it, they are only parroting what the false teachers have taught them to say. None of them are original in their explanations. They are like bullies on the playground, just as wrong, and just as abusive. Jesus is all that we need, and there appears to be nothing wrong with your discernment. It’s theirs that is off.

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  2. Well I call myself a charismatic Baptist – so here’s where I stand – I have seen the true and I can’t deny that. However, I haven’t seen it lately – not since the early 80’s. When God’s Spirit does move again, I want to be so grounded in the Word that my discernment level is razor sharp.

    When the real comes – real healing will result not temporary “mind over matter” parlour tricks. Real repentance and salvation. Real converts and disciples. Jesus will be the focus not any human celebrity. While I wait – I read and study the bible because I know that is God’s word.

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    • Javanut,

      Precisely! I’m 63 years old and have witnessed the same from the early 70’s to mid 80’s … but, oh, how it has gone off the rails. I remember when TBN was a “one-horse” Christian TV station (humble and seeking God), but soon turned into a global prosperity-seeking venue which quickly opened itself up to every heretical, self-seeking ministry imaginable! 😦

      Thank you for your comment. It’s encouraging to know that “…the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world”!

      I think what’s happening now is: “…first the natural, then the spiritual”. The “natural” (or flesh-driven) version of Ephesians 4:11-16 is occurring now. But, at some point before the Lord’s return, it will be fulfilled in “spirit and in truth” (albeit, in the midst of much persecution and affliction)!

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  3. Yeah, for now, I seem to be a Pentecostal Free Will Baptist! I just know that within the Body that is visible to us, is the Bride that is invisible to us, but not to Him. And, Oh, how He loves His Bride. Since we can’t see her so clearly, we must find a way to love His Body, the Church, because in it is The Bride of Christ!

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  4. Thank you M’kayla a very important message. I do not know what you think, but to the list of individuals, organizations and movements you mentioned, i am also very concerned about the so called deliverance movement linked to generational teaching. My personal observation, is that I see see people once the “get into” this seem to see this a a life long ( or so it appears) process of “cleaning up their generations”, looking for reasons why things are not working in their life and finding root causes in say Babylon, witchcraft, freemasonry etc. I see them more in bondage after 6 months of being involved in this type of ministry than when they started. Of course, they get told about the various layers that need to come off, all the ancestral elements affecting them etc. I see them spending time and money on researching the root causes or researching to “find out how things work” instead of returning back to the Word of God. There is so much personal revelation, gnosticism that they soak up. I ask where is the biblical justification for all of this, where is the foundation? we are told to submit to God and resist the devil not “lets try and find out who the devil is deceiving us, how he works.” And this really worries me as I see it close to me personally so this is not just a theoretical comment.

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    • Tony, you are exactly, EXACTLY right on here. When I was involved in the healing rooms there was that very same practice of uncovering and ridding the root of the problem so that the path to healing could be opened and received. The search puts people into bondage, into torment. It is evil, demonic and downright cruel to treat people in such a way. And the underlying but not spoken out loud truth is their belief in this need says that Christ is not enough, that His suffering, death and resurrection did not provide the freedom, deliverance and healing that it is said to. Jesus is all that we need – period. I am on my way to get ready for work, so I can’t say much more at this time. If you want to kick this around some, just jump in. I’ll be back.

      Peace and freedom to you and yours in the name of Christ, the Messiah! 🙂

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  5. Thank. you M’kayla or the encouraging words – “me and mine” accpt the peace and freedom in Christ the \mssiah. When challenging them about this, I get told “your gifting are in other areas, e.g teaching so you do not understand what is happening. They do not see how condescending something like that is. I became very much aware of the separation of the “gifted ones” from the rest. I guess I was brought up in the Catholic tradition so identify very easily with situations where there is an “us and them” attitude in ministry – and I mean for the worst.

    I know of someone who is having a very difficult life financially and I guess there are reasons for this. I har people tell him that he needs to get rid of all those generational ties and curses that are binding him down. And I am asking “How big is God in your life?” “Why i it that you feel you have to go to get even more ministry because all the rest have failed!” Wake up, if so much has failed, don’t you think that perhaps they can not help because they are wrong, false. What is it in people that persuades us we more easily accept the fact that we need more ministry when in reality you need to open up more to God?

    I have seen how people crave after dreams as ways of showing what God wants them to do, showing them secrets, routes of problems and they give encouraging poems and I think (forgive me) for goodness sake people you don’t need encouraging poems, don’t you know what the Word of God is telling you??

    I could go on, but all this comes from Deliverance Ministries teaching, There is such a hug lie so much deception, its as you say M’Kayla Christs sacrifice is not enough. And then there is the teaching s on parts and alters… teachings that those who have had difficulties soak up as gospel truth, sadly though there is very little in the Gospel about what the Deliverance Ministers teach – my opinion. It i sad that those who are most deliverable are also the most gullible – wonder where that comes from!

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  6. Paul mentions Heresy in THE Church at Corinth..

    1 COR 11:18-19) “FOR FIRST OF ALL, WHEN YE COME TOGETHER IN THE CHURCH, I HEAR THAT THERE BE DIVISIONS AMONG YOU; AND I PARTLY BELIEVE IT. {19} FOR THERE MUST BE ALSO –HERESIES– AMONG YOU, THAT THEY WHICH ARE APPROVED MAY BE MADE MANIFEST AMONG YOU.”

    And in Revelation chapters 1-3 Jesus commands different churches to repent of sins and false doctrine or face Judgement..
    The difference between the church back then to what it has turned into is the fact of the Solo ruler/ one king…
    1 Samuel 8:7
    And the LORD said to Samuel, Listen to the voice of the people in all that they say to you: for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

    Even in the book of Acts Chapter 15 we see that the church had a counsel of Apostles and elders making a decision via the Holy Spirit…

    So When we have one Man Or Woman in Charge and not a group of Elders following the leading of the Holy Spirit error can creep into due to no Accountability and Men saying this is MY MINISTRY AND MY CHURCH ….NO ITS NOT! The church belongs To Jesus Christ…

    So a lot of what see in Churches at worst is heresy and at best carnal christians/babies tearing things up all because of The Solo Pastor system of non-accountability and people afraid of getting ousted or getting sued to put someone in error out because of the Its My ministry attitude….God help us all…..

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    • Excellent points Byron! And now we have the NAR, self appointed prophets and apostles hearing the voice of “god”, the spirit of the antichrist right there in their meetings, spread throughout churches world wide because the pastors turned out to be hirelings! Everyone wants to be in on the next move – pride, pride, pride.

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  7. Pingback: God is Faithful, Are We? | m'kayla's korner

  8. HI MKayla
    .As you can see Im new here though I did post a comment on another post of yours last night.
    I just wanted to say ( and this is not to flatter but to edify) that I truly believe that through all your fiery trials, testings and seasoning and purifying that the Lord has made you a very gifted communicator.
    I think I spent about 6 or 7 hours last night just on ONE of your posts and read through all the comments and I was amazed and in awe actually- at how well you handled every commentor.
    .It wasnt just balance, but when you needed to use the SWORD you used it deftly and accurately and made no bones about it .
    It gave ME more boldness.
    I realize that in such perilous times that we are in now- “treading softly ‘- just isnt effective enough.
    Not when you see a whirlwind approaching not far down the road or a major earth quake you know is about to happen…. and so Ive truly been hoping to find one (or a few ) out there whom can demonstrate the kind of succintness and boldness that is truly needed when it comes to snatching sheep out of the jaws of the wolves.
    I too have quite a massive and extensive story to tell and I really appreciate that you DO allow us to “vent” for as long or as much as we need to , because believe me …..some of us havent been able to squeak out a WORD for years & this is finally such a relief.
    Your site is truly a wellspring to drink from and just “chill” around and just “release”.

    I noted how quickly other folks were beginning to find you even as I was reading so that was a sure sign that this is where God wants you to be and what He wants you to be doing, because He’ll be sending them to you Mkayla ..in droves , so dont be surprised when blogs from 2009 or earlier start getting bombarded with comments from others as more and more people are perusing this “banquet” thats been made available to them.

    Anyways at some point I’ll be posting my own story -because to be honest Ive been uttterly terrified to tell all I know and have had revealed to me ( you know “Tape on the mouth; no one listens so why does it matter ?”)…..but , in due time God will show me when & where on your forum.
    Id just like to spend more time perusing it all first and hearing from so many others and their “horror stories”,so that it will better embolden me and give me more confidence.
    Anyways …..this forum is surely part of Gods Healing process and I am thankful to Him for you.
    God Bless sister.

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    • glory, your words brought tears to my eyes and I have been greatly encouraged. Thank you for your faithfulness and I do look forward to hearing what it is that you need to get out there!

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    • Dear Glory on
      I would please love to hear your story when it is posted. God bless you and edify you in your truths of the heart of Christ.

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  9. OH…..by the way Mkayla I just had to ask:Since Ive been totally “out of the zone” for over a decade concerning all the “Moves” and Streams and “New teachings “that were being introduced to further confuse the sheep what is this “Prophetic ART” that I read or hear about?
    Obviously its all part of the Cult mindset but from your experiences what exactly is it, when did it “emerge” and for what purpose, what “effect” is it supposed to have and has it had any results.
    I knew that “Church” was really going “whacko” but now “painting & drawing” …for what PURPOSE. How exactly is that getting people saved?
    And how is painting and drawing supposed to be “Prophetic”?
    Your thoughts???
    Or any one elses?

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    • The painting is said to be a form of worship with great prophetic significance. I have also heard it said that the painters have the power to create as they paint since they have the same power and authority Christ had while he was here on the earth. So it is a blending of a “talent” with word of faith false teaching, mixed with the false prophetic. I think this practice may have originated at Bethel/Bill Johnson, tho I have seen other “streams” get into it as well, such as meetings conducted by the NAR prophet Chuck Pierce. The painting was done at the Vineyard church I attended, the kids even got involved in it. Selected paintings were actually hung on the walls of the church. There were a couple of them that bothered me and I refused to sit near them or even look at them. I remember one of them had symbols that I believe were occult in nature, which would have nothing to do with Christ.

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  10. I have stopped “Looking for” signs and wonders in the Church service. Good grief. I do not think that is what God meant when He said that He would confirm His Word with signs and wonders. It is like the error in the teaching that “the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just.” Charismatic are looking for and waiting for the big transfer of wealth to happen; when in fact God has always had the wealth of the sinner laid up for His children. He has been funneling finances or wealth from the sinner to the child of God throughout the ages. How often has a child of God been blessed by the abundance of a sinner? All the time! There is no scripture that says there is going to be a great transfer of this wealth at a specific time or in the end times. That is a lie.

    In the same way, Christians are waiting for and looking for and are even more excited about some end-time outpouring of signs and wonders and “getting ready, getting ready, getting ready for their blessings, instead of “getting ready, getting ready, getting ready for their King who is Coming!” They are more interested in seeing a performance and hearing that God loves, loves, loves them than the flip side of the coin that He is Holy, Holy, Holy and that He asks them to aim to be Holy, Holy Holy, as He is Holy, Holy, Holy. The truth is that God is constantly confirming His Word with signs and wonders, As we serve Him and as we go out and are about our Father’s business, sharing Christ with others, praying for them, encouraging them, teaching them, correcting them in love, we will see signs and wonders manifest in peoples lives, as well as in our own lives. Why are we waiting and looking for them in mass in our Church services? God’s idea of signs and wonders confirming his Word, was never meant to be so contrived that we attend a Sunday morning or Sunday Night Entertainment Hour or a Far Out soaking Session, or Choosing and then Repeating our very own (contemplative) mantra verse over and over to find peace, or that we have a good belly laugh and roll on the floor in order to strengthen us, because the scripture says, “the Joy of the Lord is our strength. This is mere foolishness, people playing games with what they believe to be God’s awesome Power.

    In John 16:13 KJV, Jesus said,” Howbeit when he, the Spirit of Truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself: but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine and shall shew it unto you.” The idea is that The Holy Spirit never exalts himself, never lifts up himself, nor does he ever call attention to himself. But rather he exalts and glorifies Jesus. He always points a person to Jesus, not to himself! While trying to be so spiritual but instead ignorant of the Word, those craving these Holy Spirit experiences in the services are following false spirits that are doing nothing but bringing Glory to themselves instead of to Jesus and that is not the intention of the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit. Rarely after these spirits’ performances, do you ever hear anyone afterwards say, “Wow, wasn’t Jesus wonderful tonight?” Wasn’t He powerful?” No, but instead you constantly hear them raveing, “Wow, did you feel the Holy Spirit? Did you hear what the Holy Spirit said? Did you see how the Holy Spirit touched her and she began to cry?” (Or laugh!) Wasn’t the Holy Spirit powerful tonight?” It is all about the Holy Spirit! So in light of John 16:13, this cannot be the Holy Spirit performing these signs and wonders but rather a deceiving spirit stealing the show, as well as the believers’ focus and heart.

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    • Karen your comments are spot on. Thank you very very much for sharing. So many good points just to touch on a couple

      People so expect to be told that God loves them so very much, will do anything for them – even though he has done everything they NEED but not what they WANT. And as you said God wants us to be holy, separated. Sure some people separate themselves, but who do they cling to? I seriously doubt it is God.

      We are meant to be the light of the world of others, our Savior Jesus told us the parable of being yeast. I wonder sometimes if some people are aware at all of what yeast is meant to do! I recall when i first going to an evangelical church and it hit me so quickly how the “spiritual gifted” used to stick around each other sharing all the stuff whilst the majority of other sere left to talk amongst themselves. We are meant to be that yeast that works with the flour, we are the spirit filled people who should be the agent for change – not by our works, our actions but by the work of the Holy Spirit who is the agent of change, who can transform us to be holy. As you say by sharing Christ, praying for them encouraging them, correcting them etc

      Church size is a barometer that measures a church success or maybe the amount of signs and wonders or the level of their supernatural intercession etc.The number of times I have heard things like “Cant you feel his presence… the temperature is rising… etc.” and then they “sense the opposite, they start feeling the opposite presence, the dark side of things, the spirits and demons and spirits that are there so they need to go through “cleansing” of the church or house . Of course having a church next to a night club meant that it had to be cleansed every Sunday morning g because of all that were happening. OK there are very specific things that I know of – been there, done it, got the T shirt.

      Now in my walk I strive (and not always well enough) to walk in Gods presence.. When I was at school we used to sing the song “The Spirit lives to set us free, walk, walk in the light.He binds us all in unity, walk, walk in the light.” It has taken me to get to my mid 50’s to realize that that song i sung at school has a deep truth, the Spirit does set us free, to do what, to walk the way that we want, to walk after signs, to wallk after wealth, no no no but to walk in the light of the Lord. Darkness can not overcome light but you do need to walk in the light.

      Praise God for many people who post on this site and of course for you M’kayla

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      • Tony, your comment that people need to be told that God loves them…in the false prophetic this point is used to assure people still in their sin, they are ok, God loves them and created them to be what they are. They are encouraged to continue in their sin with a well formed false “word from god” (yes, little “g”), and sent on their way. No gospel, no call to repent and be saved. I have to wonder what will be said to them or shown on judgement day. Will their blood be found on the hands of the false prophet?…It’s a frightening thought.

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        • M’Kayla, agree with you absolutely about people being told that they are loved and can remain in their sin. Very worrying. By the way, this is not on topic, but have you ever ministered to people who have gone through SRA? The reason I ask is because that seems to be where the “rubber hits the road” where awful things take place and it is where even mature deliverance ministry teams fail to sort things out as there you can not rely on text books but on the Holy Spirit.

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  11. I cut off the last paragraph of my previous commnet so I will add it here:They can call it what they want but what is happening in the Churches is a blasphemous display of false signs and wonders, as various deceptive spirits are exalted and given center stage, along with the preachers and anyone else, except for Jesus! Why? Because the people love it! And because they love it, it is near to impossible to convince them it is heresy! Rather than panting after Jesus, who will satisfy their soul with living water and they will thirst no more, they pant after signs and wonders, and are never satisfied. They run here and there seeking and drinking from one river after another river yet their thirst is never satisfied. They are panting after the wrong river. Only Jesus is the River of Life. Only Jesus will satisfy.

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  12. Of all the things that I am concerned with, I think deliverance from freemasonry s the most worrying. Why? Well if it is true that there is a lot of false practices in freemasonry, then how do we combat them. I have seen a book entitled “Freemasonry, death in the family” which seems to be referenced by many ministries. Just wonder if anyone has hand any experience in this area or more importantly reviewed the book?

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    • Tony, I don’t know of the book but I did go thru a deliverance session for freemasonry. We don’t need these deliverance sessions. We are free and forgiven in Christ. Whatever choices our ancestors made is on their heads, no ours. These are very dangerous practices that only result in more bondage.

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      • M’kayla that is exactly what I see. deliverance Ministry in the way it is portrayed so frequently pulls people so that they keep on uncovering more and more things that they need to be freed from. Sure they talk about the spotless bride and they are striving for that but not this way, I can not accept that. Its almost liek a church within a church. They try to make it “legal” by ensuring that they have the support of the pastor sometimes, another false teaching about “covering” but thats another story

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  13. I know the bible says In Joel that God will pour out His Spirit on all flesh and his great signs and wonders will be manifest. But hasn’t that already begun? It is like we are looking for somethnig more spectacular than Jesus’ return! I am not sure that it is going to be some huge series of supernatural events. It is like an obsession over the Holy Spirit and the Gifts. They have taken their eyes off of Jesus and put them on the miraculous.Sounds good but not what God intended.

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