For 2 ½ years I was involved in a healing room ministry under the International Association of Healing Rooms by Cal Pierce and before him, John G. Lake. There are 1,000+ healing rooms throughout the world at my last notice. Bill Johnson, Senior Pastor of Bethel Church in Redding CA is on their board of directors.
I became involved with them knowing there was a power of God stronger than what I was seeing in my church and because I truly wanted to help other people. Much of what they did was new to me, but I wrote it off thinking they knew more than I did about the word of God and one day it would make better sense to me as I learned. For the last year I was known as their “intercessor” and the last six months their Associate Director.
After I took the leadership position I started to really think about some of their methods and teachings such as word of faith, which means our words having the power to create, that we could actually speak things into existence, teaching about generational curses, Christian curses, word curses, soul ties, authority, and a whole mess of other weird stuff.
Before I was involved with them I had started taking mail correspondence courses through Ken Hagin’s Rhema. I had also been an online intercessor for Cindy Jacobs’ 40 days of prayer and fasting that took place several years ago. I remember my parent’s involvement in the charismatic long ago even though it was slight and short lived, and how they often had Praise the Lord playing on the TV. Whenever I went to their house I got a little bit of the lies and so little by little, and even though I was not walking with the Lord, it sunk in.
When I came back to the Lord after 30 years or so, I had that PTL and Jesus Movement stuff in my head, thinking it was all good and true. (I was originally saved when I was 9 years old. We attended a little Baptist Church, which my grand parents also did.) When the Jesus Movement hit, we got it too and the entire church changed. Some time later the church fell apart and the youth became so angry that we just turned from God.)
Some time ago when I was still very new to the healing rooms I was given a word that I was a seer. I had asked the Lord for this gift, because I was told you could do that. No one knew about this and so when I received that prophecy I was astounded. He said, “The Lord calls you a seer”. Quite a bit of that prophecy was about writing down the dreams and visions and allowing others to help me understand them and how this is such a vital gift to the Body of Christ, and that I could be kicked out of churches and misunderstood, blah, blah. But, I believed this word and held it close to my heart as I felt I finally found my purpose in life! (The seer/prophetic gift has been the hardest for me to come to terms with after having come out of all the falseness!)
After that word I learned about John Paul Jackson and was happy to pay him tons of money to teach me to interpret dreams and visions and learn about all the whacky supernatural stuff we were created to do. Truly, I had a very hard time with his teachings, but again, I wanted to learn. I thought I was going to him to learn how to biblically interpret, but instead it was his own method, which is based on lies. He also endorses, encourages and experiences many out of body and throne room trips to the “third” heaven.
I was involved in reading the Elijah List constantly and yes, I went to see Kim Clement a couple of times. The first time he prophesied about my brother and had the whole building praying for him. I was an extremely powerful night and convinced me Kim was a true prophet, how else could he know all that he did about someone he has never met?
Shortly after this time I was invited to join the prophetic team at the Vineyard church I started attending with my husband about a year before. I was involved in learning the prophetic and going on retreats, giving word after word after word. On these trips you were eating, sleeping or giving words – nothing else! For instance say 60 people would be attending and only 3 or 4 of us were on the team, from the math you can see the demand because every one was supposed to get a word!
So, last October during intercession with the healing room team I just seemed to have run into this very ugly thing, like I hit a wall. I could no longer pray with them or for them and I no longer wanted to. Earlier in the summer I began researching things on the internet. I had spoken out against Todd Bentley; I could see his folly but not my own! I wanted to know what had been going on and where it had all come from. Not just Bentley’s but the healing rooms and the whole prophetic – charismatic thing. And, I wanted to know what God had to say about it all.
Once I started to read I could not stop. I stayed at my computer as much as I could – day and night. I found stories and blogs and videos and free on line books full of teaching. As soon as one question was answered I would have another and then another. I desperately needed to understand the whole latter rain mess and who was behind it and what I had gotten myself into. I secretly hoped I was okay, that none of my teachers or the things I belonged to was false.
The truth to me was shocking. It was like a nightmare and there were times I thought I would literally die. But, I kept reading. I was so afraid at times, afraid to pray that I would say the wrong thing, or I would hear that other voice, not of God’s. Then I started to remember my dreams. For 2 years God was trying to tell me in my dreams about the deceit, but I could not understand them at the time. They made no sense to me. Its like after I made the decision to find the truth the lights started coming on and I started to see what I could not before.
I resigned from the healing rooms last October ‘08 and we left our Vineyard church this past January ‘09. We met with our pastors earlier last fall to discuss some of our concerns but it was to no avail. Coming out of this was not easy for me. I was angry. I was shocked. I was alone. There were days that I did not know what to do. I went through a time of not trusting and not wanting to trust others, a time of not wanting to attend church. However, my husband thought we should at least try some out, and in his wisdom we have found one that we do like. The teaching is very sound and the people are very friendly and genuine. I had my days of tears and days of agonizing repentance once I realized what I had done. And now I see God in that role of l-o-n-g—s-u-f-f-e-r-i-n-g!
A few weeks ago I sat down and started to put in writing what I had been learning. I have never read the bible more in my life or the commentaries, and never has it made as much sense as it has these past few weeks! Recently, I sent it out to the entire healing rooms team, a few friends at church and family. It addressed curses, manifestations, the Holy Spirit, impartations and supernatural experiences in the biblical sense. It was hard to send and I knew I could lose friendships, and I have so few. But the thought of them in deception and possibly going to hell; and in knowing Jesus too was rejected by so many is what made up my mind. I thought of the warning that Ezekiel was given that if he did not their blood would be on his hands. I can’t have that! I have done enough damage!
I have to tell you that now I am free, I feel so much freedom and joy and I realize I used to feel this way. I no longer have that oppressive, something is always wrong, need to “intercede” and battle in the spirit feeling. I no longer experience that “other voice” or that strange and uncomfortable presence over me.
The things I used to like to do, the true gifts God gave me that seem to have disappeared, have been returning to me like long lost friends.
Whatever God is leading you to in this hour, go there, do it. Don’t be afraid. Yes, you will more than likely suffer rejection as you speak the truth and so do I. More importantly, so did Jesus and He is the reason we have hope!
There are so many of us who have been deceived, but now we know the way out. Our experiences, our prayers and determination will help bring others out too. Jesus is the good shepherd; he left the crowd to go after the one that was lost. We are not alone.
Who knows what God will do with what we have learned?
Note: I don’t blame a particular person or group for the deceitful practices and teachings I became involved in. I take full responsiblity for what I exposed myself to. I am very thankful the Lord got me out of it. He is faithful and true.
I was amazed by this post. I too have sort of come out of all that, I’m now pursuing the God of the Bibile plain and simple, not the teachings of men. The Word of Faith is a sham, stripping God of His sovereignty. I now pray more “Thy will be done” than any other request really, especially in these times we live. I barely dare have a desire, because everything around us it changing and going so crazy so rapidly, I’m sure I don’t know anything and I just want Jesus to guide me and hold my hand, and keep my family safe if possible.
Would you be able and willing to share with me some of the things you learned that led you to come out ? I’d like to hear and read it if you would share. maybe you could give me some links that explain these things that I already know in my spirit but have never seen in print.
God bless you!
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May your pursuits of the one and only Jesus reward you! He is so faithful and knows our hearts and God tells us we will find him when we search for him with all of our hearts!
My way out was in the questioning. I had been spending more and more time in prayer and in that earnestness I began to question certain teachings and practices. My husband who was doing some video editing for the prayer ministry began to question it too, so we were both running for the bible, looking things up, talking them over, etc. Most of the big named ministries, teachers, evangelists and prophets, esp. those on television operate in false doctrine and prophecy. Most all of them claiming to have had dreams or visions are in the same boat. These people are not bringing the truth, but they are bringing in money for themselves.
The information contained in the articles posted here on my blog is the result of all the months of researching and reading in the various areas – gen curses, word curses, healing, (word of faith and kindgom now theology) etc, and I suggest that you read those.
http://moriel.org/MorielArchive/ their section on abberational theology is quite good. They do have an at -a -glance type article that will actually name the names of movements, what they mean and thier leaders. It is quite an eye opener and I have been planning to post it here, but havent’ gotten to it yet.
Here are some others-
http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/index.php (Also has info on contemplative and emergent.)
http://apprising.org/ (emergent church)
You are welcome to ask me anything you feel the need to, as often as you feel is necessary. I believe we learn together and from each other!
Hi i can relate to your story fully, having spent years in the Charismatic scene, but all the time struggling with much of the teaching as it didnt seem to line up with scripture. Ive been on a journey for a few years now getting grounded in sound doctrine and theology, words which were treated as swear words almost in Charismatic circles. I remember reading a book years ago called ‘The Beautiful Side of Evil’ and that help explain much of what goes on in the Charismatic scene. Also whenever i used to [gently] question the teaching of much of these so called prophets the pastor or Elders would get very angry and looked lke they wanted to kill me. Very scary!
Bless ya! Ken
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these so called prophets love to misquote the bible verse don’t touch god anoionted, do not harm my propets to manipulate and inttimate people who question them, I’ll question them anytime, anyplace, anywhere when they financially rip their followers off and turn the house of god into a den of thieves and robbers, god is not going to strike me dead for questioning these false prophets who are fake ass men and women of god
Dear Mkayla, I just want to say how great is our God, who never fails us and I want to thank Him and give Him the glory for answering my prayer. I am at this present time (it began yesterday evening) challenging a church that I used to attend (I only went for a very short time). They are very much into the Word of Faith movement and are big promoters of Kenneth Copeland!
I sent a 30 minute video clip to the Pastor’s wife of the church I used to attend as she keeps in touch by continuing to invite me to events that happen there. The video was clips of the Word of Faith movements “preachers”. In one of them Kenneth Copeland states that God is the biggest failure in the Bible!!! To cut a long story short she still stands with him as she said she has personally seen him healing people even those having autism and that they see 10,000’s come to Christ. I have also had to challenge an Anglican Vicar on what they teach. The Associate Vicar of that church told the congregation that as long as they were born into the Anglican church (I don’t even know what that means) and were christened as babies then they are Born Again!!! But let me get back to God answering my prayer. I was in my garden hanging out washing this morning and talking to the Lord about the situation with the first church that I mentioned. I was asking Him if I was doing the right thing by challenging these people. I started to doubt and asking myself, is this really what I should be doing or am I just being arrogant and coming across as if I’m a “know all”. I asked Him to let me know if I should continue as I don’t want to be prideful or self righteous. I then came back inside and after some time decided to reply to the Pastor’s wife, but, still with the feeling of “am I doing God justice”?. I went on to facebook to go on messenger and first checked my notifications. One of the Christian people who is in a page that I follow had shared your “When Bethel invades your church” blog. I clicked on it and read: “Whatever God is leading you to in this hour, go there, do it. Don’t be afraid. Yes, you will more than likely suffer rejection as you speak the truth and so do I. More importantly, so did Jesus and He is the reason we have hope!” It actually brought tears to my eyes. So I want to thank you for sharing your journey regarding this and I look forward to exploring your site. God bless you sister
Praise God Anne! I am so excited to hear your news. Yes, we are told in scripture to mark those who cause division, to leave their company and warn others. The bible is full of warnings to not follow other gods or do as the pagans. The teachings behind WOF is not biblical doctrine and those who teach and run after it are following other gods, or the other jesus/gospel as Paul warned against! Please let me know if I can be of help.
Blessings and praising Jesus with you! 🙂
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May the Lord bless you and keep you – May you be renewed in His love and grace by the Holy Spirit. May your words be so filled with truth – that the joy of the Lord becomes your strength. May you be empowered by the Holy Spirit to proclaim Truth, the good news and the person of CHRIST. MAY THE LORD RESCUE YOU AND DELIVER YOU FROM ALL harm, deception, and may the Holy Spirit fill you with his seven gifts of the spirit and His eternal peace – in Jesus’ name – amen
Hey Liz, I’m finding I’m praying more alonf the lines of “Your will be done, Oh Lord,” also. ESPECIALLY now cause if I were to pray what I really wanted… uh well, it wouldnt be good. 🙂
Yes, and I really don’t know what’s best for our family anymore. We had been trying to move to the US or Canada for a really long time, but as of now, I no longer know if that might be a good idea or a really bad one. So we’ve just been leaving it all in God’s hands! He will lead us and guide us in the way we should go.
I want to thank you for the posts. I just found your website and I must say I see many of the same arguments that I have made or think about concerning the topics of the Gifts of the Spirit, The Holy Spirit, and many others.
I can only speak to you and anyone else about my own experiences, so although I believe that the Biblical approach is very very necessary, I also believe that the Word of God has to come alive in the form of revelation, not just education. For what use do I have for a dead word that does not do what God intended it to do, right?
So if the Holy Bible is the scriptures, it’s not necessarily the Word of God or the Word of Righteouness. It’s by all accounts, an account or a “biblio” of what others’ before experienced as they were inspired and led by the Holy Spirit, right?
After all, it is “His” sheep that “Hear” his voice.
So with that said, I agree with your arguments and posts because I feel the same way with a slight difference.
Here is the difference.
I believe that God has given us a choice to walk by faith or walk by sight.
Faith is the hope of things unseen Heb. 11:1, 2 Cor. 4:18.
If we “fix” our eyes on things seen, then we have no faith. Faith is the hope, that we are believing for things unseen or things not in our presence yet. If I just believe what that scripture says at face value without employing hermeneutics, I would tend to believe that it literally means “believe for things unseen.” 🙂
But if I read into it, and expand it by filling it with other scriptures that may or may not apply depending on how I want it to read, I could believe for a 2015 Chevrolet Corvette, fully paid for, and insured, all because my “Sugar Daddy” in heaven said, “Give and it shall be given pressed down… ” you know rest of that.
So, I suppose because we all see in part, and hear in part, no one really has the complete answer. That’s what I believe to be the absolute truth here. I tend to side with both sides of this. The Charismaniacs and the Cessationalists both have it right to some degree.
Now for the real kicker…
Here is a prophetic dream I had several years ago. I haven’t have one since, because this is what God is literally speaking to the Church today. I’m not trying to be an egomanic, I’m telling you. This is what is saying.. Please read at your own discretion. It may offend some..
I am lead worship at an old style white steeple church that seats 100.
In this church are 50 pastors sitting on the right, and 50 pastors on the left. The 50 pastors that are sitting down and reading their bibles together in unity are speaking right under their breathe, but they have their faces buried in the Bible.
The 50 pastors to the left are walking around speaking in tongues and they all sound like geese and turkeys making a loud sound.
As I leading worship from the platform, I am sitting Indian Style with my legs crossed and I am on the floor of the platform.
Out of the very top corner of the Ceiling, a Witch appears on her broomstick sitting sideways because she was wearing a 17th century dress as those worn by ladies of the night or a brothel. Her breast almost all exposed, and her legs exposed to the point that you could almost see completely under it, with a seductive look on her face. She is speaking outloud in a language that can not be understood by plain english, but it sounded like Spiritual Profanities, or at least it did to my ears.
The 50 Pastors to the right are still sitting down reading from the Bible in unison, while the 50 Pastors to the left stop what they were doing and begin to look on at the Witch with amazement. They were transfixed on her because she had the appearance of a “Mystery”.
I began to worship and Pray as I stood to my feet, the Witch disappeared. This repeated two more times, and the last time, I began to rebuke the Witch in my worship and Prayer, she fled and never came back.
The 100 Pastors were now on their feet, worshiping together as they were now unified in crying out to God together..
End of Prophetic Dream..
Tell me your thoughts on this. And I will reply back. I have so much more on this topic but I leave room for someone else to give input. Thanks again for your website. Very awesome and interesting.
Sincerely in Him,
Just a quick question but first of all to clarify, I’m not a cessationist. I don’t’ believe we have a choice to either walk by faith or by sight. Many things are not seen, are not supposed to be seen or as the charismatics, demand to be seen. Remember, blessed are those who have not seen and believe. Even doubting Thomas only saw in part to believe. I agree if we fix our eyes on what we see, such as unchanged, difficult situations we will be stuck there. But it doesn’t change us as in giving a supernatural power to see things that are closed to us. I hope I am making sense, I am running on very little sleep. I just wanted to first see if we could clarify that point.
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The only sight that we have is just only the (King James) Bible. Stop going to churches from the christianity, because that’s a man made religion. You are or a gentile without God or a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ (I speak in general way of speaking). The Judaism is Gomorraq and the christianity is Sodom. Look for that in Ezekiel 23; 16:45-63; Ezek. 27 and than Ezekiel 23:29 till the end . Let we be in the inner quaters nd having house Bible study groups. Its very sufficient for me. GBY Jan Prins.
Hi mkayla, I loved that post. It home in so many ways. I remember the first time I was around charasmania and something in me went, uhoh. I should have listened to it. But I felt like I was being rebellious to God because gee, well after all, the preacher had a hotline to heven, right? anyway, isn’t God good to get us out of it all. Don’t feel bad. I lost friends too. 😦
But as you already know; Jesus is the best friend we could have. 🙂
Hotline to heaven – hehe, that’s IT exactly, but which heaven?
God is faithful beyond our understanding. I am finding if I don’t think about the rejection, and I have had a lifetime of it in many areas, and if I relate to the fact that Jesus was hugely rejected by those He loved, I begin to learn to really look to Him and not man. Its a much different spin than to be down in the dumps, no one loves me, blah, blah, ya know? This is something to be learned, not just echoed. It is ruff sailing, but…one day…and on that day we are going to have so much to dance about, and we will dance on the altar at His feet! How gloriously healing that day will be!
Blessings to you and your work my friend!
Thanks for the encouragement!
I tried the first two websites you gave me links to. Moriel Archive is awesome, it’s so complete. I’ll have to carve out the time to dig into it. But I did not find the at-a-glance list of heretic ministries you mentioned under aberrational theology. Could you get the link for that specific article for me please? The second site, endtimesprophecy, I really did not understand how to use it. It seemed more like an advertisement site, like those from Google. Maybe you can help me find out what I’m doing wrong.
For political news relevant to Christians I like to use:
Maybe it will be helpful to you too.
Thanks again and liet’s keep in touch. I don’t have a blog but will be visiting yours often.
Hi Liz. I posted the link to the Moriel article as Four Current Movements.
Thanks! I foud it and will be digging into it as time allows.
Hey, M’kayla, I almost forgot to tell you. I have a friend who lives in San Francisco who went to one of those healing sessions you mentioned at Bethel Church in Reddings. She called me long distance (international!) to brag about it, she was so excited that finally she had met people who could really help her, but as she described her experience to me I could not feel excited for her, something in my spirit just kept on bugging me, and I knew something wasn’t right. Later I went to their website and watched some of the worship music and really did not think much of it at all. (I’m a worship leader at our church, so music really matters a lot to me.) Out of all that my friend said, the only thing that I felt I could use was that she suggested I pray a deliverance prayer from free masonry on proxy for my brother who was a Mason. And so I did, I prayed the long prayer with my husband. My brother and I had been practically enemies for the two years preceding that, and all of a sudden we reconciled and had peace with each other again. I forgave him from my heart for a lot of stuff he did against me and my family. We had some talk about Heaven and how he thought he’d never go to Heaven because he had killed some people. I told him that God can forgive any sin. Later he wrote me an email just before Easter giving Glory to God and wishing me the peace of Our Lord Jesus Christ. He passed away a week after Easter, totally unexpectedly. I was on my knees interceding as fiercely as I ever interceded for anybody the last 15 minutes of his life, and God has put in my heart that at the last few moments of his life he cried out to God for mercy because he was in such severe pain, so I really believe he was saved. And I think all that somehow came from me praying that deliverance prayer on his behalf. So, that’s all I think was useful from all my friend related to me. One thing that surprised me is, how can such a spiritual church not be saying anything about the times we’re living in, what’s coming upon America since the elections, I mean, I just cannot accept that any church would go about their regular spiritual business totally oblivious to what’s going on. I’m not saying we have to dwell on that 24/7, but never mentioning anything at all?
Well, I’ve talked too much already.
Until next time,
I keep reading and re-reading your post. There is so much being said in it, and so much emotion. I have a similar situation with one of my brothers who is away from the Lord and drowning in so much of his own stuff. (not a freemason tho) But to lose him – ugh! – would be horrendous.
My heart goes out to you, and there is so much encouragement in your words for others to see. Who knows if it was the prayer or if we should even concern ourselves. It was God in all of His wisdom and mercy who knew your brother had a short time left. This in itself
says so much. Who but a child of God gives Him glory and sends His peace? Is it even possible of a non-believer?
I am thankful to God for your intercession on his behalf. It is not so much our words, but our heart felt desire manifesting as prayers to the Father for those we love to be released from thier chains of bondage! Those we love, of course, but even so, those we have never met! That is who our God is; merciful and abounding in love and forgiveness!
As for your friend
Our help is solely from the Lord. It is never in the person or group or place, or in those who have been specially trained. Our salvation gives us all the right and privelge to stand before the Lord and ask for the things we need. No person is above another in this. Praise God for this truth!
Do you have a link where I can go to hear your music?
Blessings to you. 🙂
There is only one short video of the music in our church on YouTube. Before you click on it, let me just briefly explain what kind of church we attend: our pastor is a converted Jew, his son is the head of Jews for Jesus in Brazil, so our church has as one of its main focuses evangelizing Jews. For that reason, we celebrate the Jewish festivals, with a Christ-centered approach, and we also have Shabbat services when the pastor always points to where Jesus can be found in all the Jewish symbology. Our church is not a judaizing church, and it does not teach that Christians have to do anything “Jewish” to please God. It’s just that if a Jew comes in, he/she will find it easier to understand that Jesus is the Messiah by learning the true meaning of their festivals and symbols, which all pointed to Christ.
With all that said, the song on YouTube was filmed during a Feast of Tabernacles and it’s sung in Hebrew and Portuguese (I live in Brazil). It’s not that great, as we have limited resources, our church is small and our country is not First World. I’m playing the keyboard and my husband’s in the back playing the tambourine. This song is the first verse of Psalm 133 , “Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!”
On regular services, like Sunday worship and Wednesday night we sing regular Christian choruses in Portuguese.
I hope you like it, all things considered…
I love it. It is real worship! It is man who is after that fancy stuff, not God.
Thanks for sending it and many blessings to your congregation! 🙂
Thanks! Our little church has been a haven for us here. It’s a drop of fresh water in the desert.
Hi Liz Diaz,,, I too enjoyed the song because it is true worship. Thanks for sharing.
Awwww I LOVE THIS!!!!! Wish I could be there! I feel like I have been able to be with like-minded believers and have just worshipped God. Thank you and please give me your youtube link. Love ya sister!
Hi! We do have a YouTube channel but there are only two songs posted so far. I’m posting the other one here. The other videos are prayers in Hebrew of Portuguese, as most of the videos were filmed during one of the Jewish feasts our church celebrates for the reasons I explained in the post above.
This song is called Yevarechecha and it’s basically Psalms 128:5-6
5 The LORD bless you out of Zion,
And may you see the good of Jerusalem
All the days of your life.
6 Yes, may you see your children’s children.
Peace be upon Israel!
Hope you like it! The song came out a bit too fast, but oh well…
I know that song. It’s a Paul Wilbur song, from the album Shalom Jerusalem. Wonderful Messianic music. You might want to check it out.
Was blessed to read your post M’Kayla. May our LORD Jesus work thru you to lead many into His wonderful deliverance from every lie and falsehood and from every counterfeit spirit.
It was interesting to read about the person who read out a rote prayer as a proxy, which is silly, yet God seemed to honor it anyway. He sees the heart and not the ‘form’, but so much better to discard the ‘form’ and live in relationship to Him : to be in His good and perfect will, fully pleasing Him, and not playing fast and loose with His truth.
Ian, I’m confused. What do you mean by this? I can’t figure out what you are referring to.
It was interesting to read about the person who read out a rote prayer as a proxy,
Or am I having a dense moment? 🙂
I think Ian was referring to me when I prayed for deliverance from Free Masonry in proxy for my brother. I do believe he is in heaven now, God has put that peace in my heart. I also believe He took my brother out before the masons really rose up in the final days to lead the New World Order. If my borther were still with them at that time, it might be too late to pull away.
Grace and peace,
Ohhh, I see. Thanks for the response!
After i made that post the word that came to me was ‘mixture’ , a word to understand what is going on in charismania. Many of Jesus’ own are caught up in mixture, they heed the Holy Spirit in part AND also entertain demons, and often can’t tell the difference. The Holy Spirit abhors a mixture, eh.
Yes, I agree and that is where I was too. I heard what I thought was God, but then I heard someone else too. When the someone else started getting louder and a little too quick in speaking I started to doubt. But it was God who kept pulling me back to his word. And while in the ministry, they didn’t like that I started to “hear” a little differently. They didn’t like praying in the manner of “asking”, they like the “declaring”.
The mixture of spirits seems to be the norm for them, as though its the way it should be. I have found it very hard to convince them of the truth. I guess that is the work of the Holy Spirit, not me. 🙂 I can only lay it out there. They have to willing to hear. Any wonder why we are told to pray without ceasing?
I see that Liz has already clarified it, thanks.
Thanks Ian! 🙂
Oops, this was from Kings Bride Forum comment i was referring to:
“Out of all that my friend said, the only thing that I felt I could use was that she suggested I pray a deliverance prayer from free masonry on proxy for my brother who was a Mason. And so I did, I prayed the long prayer with my husband.”
Hi Mkayla !
quote, “Our help is solely from the Lord. It is never in the person or group or place, or in those who have been specially trained. Our salvation gives us all the right and privelge to stand before the Lord and ask for the things we need. No person is above another in this. Praise God for this truth!” end quote.
Mkayla, first I want to say thank you so much for posting about your experience and how you were set free! Thank you !! I would just like to add for anyone who is still ‘young’ in their spiritual quest/walk that it is okay to listen to ‘teachers’ but then it is up to you (and you must) to go to the Holy Word of God, the Bible, to discern the truth of what you have been hearing.
Romans 10:16-18 (Amplified Bible)
16But they have not all heeded the Gospel; for Isaiah says, Lord, who has believed (had faith in) what he has heard from us?(A)
17So faith comes by hearing [what is told], and what is heard comes by the preaching [of the message that came from the lips] of Christ (the Messiah Himself).
18But I ask, Have they not heard? Indeed they have; [for the Scripture says] Their voice [that of nature bearing God’s message] has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the far bounds of the world
Thanks for your comment.
You remarked – quote, “Our help is solely from the Lord. It is never in the person or group or place, or in those who have been specially trained. Our salvation gives us all the right and privelge to stand before the Lord and ask for the things we need. No person is above another in this. Praise God for this truth!” end quote.
I said this as a response to Liz in the story about her friend in that context. Too often these days, and it’s getting worse, people think there are those who are more gifted, more spiritual, etc. than they are themselves and they seek them out for help. We are all given the Holy Spirit for guidance and counsel AND the word of God. True, teachers are of some value, but one person should not be regarded as “more” than the other. If we are a true “body” each person has thier own place and function, Jesus Christ being the head of the body.
You are correct, we should always be able to prove teachings with the word. Sadly, many do not are the deception in the church is growing at an alarming rate. I don’t see it so much as only for those who are “young”, tho, anyone of us can be decieved if we are not watching.
Blessings to you.
This is why it is so important to KNOW the word of God. When you hear something that is not right, if you know the word…you can immediately dismiss what was said. If you are not certain about something said….search it out, read the Bible for yourself to find out what it says. READ your BIBLES…..
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Wow! Am I ever thankful I found this website! I, too, have been involved in the charismatic church on and off for the better part of 20 years. I am only sorry that it took me this long to really begin questioning things. My latest involvement was from November of last year until June of this year, when God graciously geographically removed me because I lost my job in May and had to come live with my daughter for a time. It was at this time, when I was watching a Sunday morning service broadcast live from the church that the Holy Spirit really began to speak to my heart and had me begin to research the roots of the charismatic movement. Up until this point there had been things said in church that I just could not get an understanding of-I needed to know exactly what these people were promoting. I have been blessed by God to have been given teaching of sound doctrine 30 years ago when I started attending church. I also have knowledge of God’s Word and scripture because I have spent much time in His Word. I was astounded to find out the background of many of these so-called new ” apostles and prophets” of God! So much began to make sense to me-the feelings of things being not “quite just right”, and the emphasis on “experience” over the Word of God. Sadly, I can see now that the real agenda of these modern day “prophets and prophets” is still being hidden to most of the body of Christ! It is like the Holy Spirit has jolted me back into reality and I am grieving over my involvement with this movement and my having sat under false teaching for so long. I am questioning a lot of things right now-the way I think, the way I express myself to others about God, whether I have led others into error. I have repented before God and I know that He is merciful and has forgiven me, but I would like all of you to pray for me-that the Holy Spirit would remove all that is of false doctrine and false teaching from my spirit and soul. God has shown me that the true prophetic gifting always points back to and confirms the Word of God-not our “experiences”, regardless of how glorious they may make us feel. Sadly, too, is the fact that there are many of God’s people still involved with this movement who are sincere in their faith and truly desire to God’s will. God has shown me that this
Deb, you said this-
They way I was taught was that the experience or the prophetic word will always point the person back to God and in doing so, the experience is found to be valid. And, in the midst of the deception, the person is pointed back to the demon who is giving the experience, not the one and only Most High God!! So, the deception continues as there is no way in that method to know the truth. Quite different than what you said here, which is a very good point. The word of God is the only way we can find the truth!!! Bless you!
(Whoops! I lost my message there-to continue..) “new move of God” and their theology and doctrine are like a cancer in the physical body. Just as in the physical body, cancer, left unchecked and untreated, metastisizes, and spreads to other parts of the body that are healthy! But I have hope- Our Lord Himself said that He would build His Church, and the gates of hell would not prevail against her! I have requested prayer from you who have had involvement in this movement because I believe you would have a better understanding of where I am at this time-the questioning, the confusion, the trust that has been shattered by people I thought were really leading me into truth. Thanks! Deb
Hi Deb. I’m really glad to hear your story. So many have become entangled and I am glad you are out. I will pray for you. For me, it was very helpful to do the research on the individual false teachings to see the truth of the word of God against the lies of charismania and false prophetic, etc. On one afternoon, I was whining about not hearing God’s voice and wondering if I had every truly heard God and suddenly God said to stop worrying about hearing His voice and start reading His word. And that was the last I heard from Him. Once I got up and became obedient, my thinking became clearer and little by little I developed a better understanding. I stopped listening to everyone, except our new pastor. But, no books, videos, nothing for a time. I still hardly ever read anything other than the bible – a little David Wilkerson, and I do like the writings of EM Bounds, but for most parts, I avoid all other teachers.
You are right in that it is like a cancer that spreads from one to the other and those who I have warned are still involved. It is sad. It is also terrifying to think we could be that deceived, even with the truth staring us in the face. But, it is God who restores us to right standing and so I leave it up to Him to convict and bring them back where they should be, to the truth.
I won’t play around here. Coming out was a nightmare and I had to really struggle on my own for a while. It was like I was encased in something and had to work to get out of it. God is faithful and He is there with you and will continue to be. If you manifest, read the article on manifestations. It is very long, but so very valuable. There’s good information there for guidance, even if you don’t experience them.
You are welcome to stay in touch if you would like. I will help you in any way that I can. Until then, remember, you are in my prayers.
I love to see people coming out and not going in…..to all this deception and craziness. For me it was 35 years!More pentecostal than the pentecostals!I ‘ministered’ in many areas and travelled the world….until I began to cry out for God to show me His truth through the Holy Spirit.There were too many strange and bizarre happenings based on experience that didn’t line up with the Word of God.Satan and his demons always made sure all my expectations were fulfilled in the areas of feeling warm and fuzzy and causing supernatural things to happen. After all the Bible describes him as an angel of light….that makes it difficult to tell the difference between truth and deception….that is of course if one is not measuring everything by the Word.I worked in the area of ‘breaking generational curses’….’setting people free from freemasonary, cults, sickness etc’I was recognised as a’prophet’ and a lot of the ‘stuff’ I forcast was totally true……(BUT coming from demonic powers)I ‘delivered’ people from demons and took them back in their memory so they could be healed by ‘jesus’.
I could go on and on but there is no need and the only reason I share this much is to try and help others who are deceived like me. Now, after having studied the Word, like I should have done in the first place instead of looking for experiences and listening to men, I know without a doubt….I was operating under demonic guidance and was nothing but a clairvoyant and deceived person.There are no generational curses, we cant use excuses for our behaviour and need to call it sin and repent…there are however consequences for making ungodly choices but Jesus became that curse for us (and anyway it was God who ordained curses and blessings for a certain time and generation in the old Testament) when He died on the cross.We cannot ‘stand in the gap’ as it were and repent on behalf of our country or another person….only that person can repent for his own sins.We cannot ‘bind’ satan or demons..that is taken from twisted scripture. The only time satan is bound is in Revelation by an angel and thrown into the pit. You cannot ‘break the power of freemasonary’ over someone….you do not have that power!Reading through screeds of renounciation papers will not set anyone free! The only way they can be freed is by God in His sovereign grace giving them the gift of repentance….thats right, we even have to rely on Him for that!We can’t ‘heal’ people from memories in their past…..the jesus who appears to comfort is a counterfeit and no where in scripture does it say we are to try and do that.Paul says…this one thing I do…..FORGETTING what lies behind, I press on, toward the goal.We are to lay our burdens down ….not go searching deep within our souls for past hurts and wounds.We are not to seek self satisfaction or to try and love ourselves…(that all based on man and physcology) We already love ourselves…too much….. but we are to take up our cross daily and follow Christ.
We are not to use some cultish babble in our prayers to God, Paul was chastising the Corinthian church for going back to their pagan ways and speaking in ecstatic tongues so they could have a mind altering experience. The Mormons and different cults and religions do this today….why oh why would we want to do this and waste hours in deception thinking we are talking to God when Jesus showed us plainly how we are to pray. “Our Father who art in Heaven” Oh there is so much more….the totally plain and simple reason for all that happened during that soooo special time in history was to prove Jesus was the Messiah come to earth as had already been fortold many years ago………and the miracles for the Jews, but they still didn’t believe, so the Gentiles were grafted in. To all those who have ‘come out’ I say “Praise God” but make sure you study the Word and grow in the ways of God. To those of you who are searching, can I please say…..don’t hang around any longer, get yourself out of that pentecostal environment as fast as you can.We are living in a time like never before and we have been warned so many times that this was going to happen.The worst part is people don’t want the truth, they are listening to seducing spirits. Remember everything we need to live this life in a Godly way is in His Word. He has spoken through it and doesn’t need messed up men and women to add to His Word. It is finished! All we need for life and Godliness is there.Blessings
Oh, Yvonne. What an amazing testimony. I don’t think I would have lasted that long – it all came so quickly! I think it would have killed me otherwise. I hope other people read this and are encouraged and strengthened to come out of it all -quickly before time runs out.
Yes, the truth is in the word, but they don’t want to read it or see it. I wish they would just take the time but they are so dazzled by all the false teachers and prophets and falling sparkling stuff – on and on…
What was it that made you doubt and start to pray that way? How long ago was it? Amazing, God is just so amazing in His mercy, isn’t He?
I would love to put this up in an article the way it is. What do you think???
Love and blessings to you my sister!
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Ok. Start with a few:
1. What is the connection between false spirits and simple error? In several of the “watchman/hunter/berean” type blogs I find hundreds of laments and indicts concerning the “bad theology” followed by a poorly positioned leap to heresy and demons. The “I did not know you” reference is common, but more applicable to other forms of religion and iconoclastic rituals (see the sweat thread–much more appropriate to the scripture referenced). NAR theology suggests a unified dominion, so what? Who cares? It’s just an earthly end game theory.
2. I don’t agree with Kingdom Now theology for the most part, yet I belong to a church that treats Bethel (Redding) as it’s “cover.” Does that make me “in league with Lucifer?” I am not a child, nor do I serve a weak Lord. “Ask” and I do. Weak manmade theology doesn’t hold authority over who answers, it’s that simple. I would suggest for the masses (within the above church) they are not ignored either. If the deception or error holds them captive, it would make Jesus a liar and Him submissive to a more powerful enemy. Makes no sense.
3. Yes, I get tired of being told to shut my mind off (with loose reference to Eph), but I will trade error for hope. I’m simply not bored.
I just wish there were a better platform for negotiating our criticism. The “get out and save your salvation” is troublesome for me. Sure fringe cults might need such tactics, but “time runs out?” I don’t get it.
Let’s start with this. And remember, I actually agree with just about all of your observations, I just don’t agree with your action requirement and evaluations. If I’ve been to aggressive, let me know.
It isn’t just “bad theology” or error, it is a matter of teaching things that scripture does not. We are warned so many times to be aware of and to have nothing to do with another jesus, another gospel, doctrines of demons, etc. We are told if we even associate with such people we share in their evil – 2 John 8-11. We should not be taking a teaching as truth simply because it is being spoken behind a pulpit or by someone who is well known. We should always search the scriptures to find out if they are true.
This is what I finally got around to doing when I began my research a little over a year ago. I simply took a teaching, got my concordance and my bible. And none of the things that I had been following, or had taught others like a good little parrot, were found there – none.
The NAR is not just an end time theory, it is a lie and their teachings and plans are very dangerous to true followers. They teach everyone should be under apostles and prophets and are building their “kingdoms” accordingly. They believe their areas are “portals” for God and that His presence is best “hosted”, felt, experienced, etc. there. (Portals come from new age or the demonic, not the bible.) Dominion is to take the earth for Jesus, building His kingdom so that he CAN return. He cannot or will not until the church finally gets off it’s lazy behind and takes the over the world. They believe the disciples didn’t get it right, either and now it is up to us, to make it happen. Some believe the supernatural plays a part in this, as we are supposed to all be having out of body and throne room experiences, speak prophetically (personal prophecy) over everyone you come into contact with, aka marketplace ministry, soak in his presence as a method of worship, and on it goes. You will not find such a teaching in the word of God.
Some of them claim a huge revival is imminent. The bible says there will be a great falling away, or as I have had it explained to me – apostasy – meaning believers leave Jesus. We are in the midst of it! I believe Kingdom theology is the same as dominion, the two being interchangable. We can go as far as the Manifest Sons of God which teaches that believers will not die, they will overcome death and embody Christ, throwing out the rapture and the second coming altogether and even a need for Jesus since they have become God all on their own. This all comes out of the latter rain movement. Most of these people supporting this nonsense were involved in the Toronto Blessing in the 90’s or Rodney Howard Browne and others.
What does the bible say about spiritual covering? You do not need a person or organization to cover you or your church, you are covered by Jesus Christ. Just another bad teaching to get you to come under an authority the Lord did not intend for you to have. If you align yourself with teachings, teachers, prophets and apostles, etc. that teach another gospel than the one taught in the bible, yes, you have aligned yourself with Lucifer. What do you think is meant by antichrist? I see this whole NAR, emergent, contemplative gang forming it right before our very eyes, right out of our own churches. If we take the word of God, in which Jesus Christ IS the word (John 1) and take it out of context, twist it around so that is says something other than what is does, what have we done to Jesus Christ? This is not a matter of making Jesus a liar or less powerful, for no power could ever do that. But it is all about others who come in His name, having nothing of Him, and this is where we could hear the words, depart from me. We cannot change the word of God or the ways of God and his commands, the way Jesus taught us to do things and expect God to answer. He will not. But Satan will.
I don’t know how much you have read on my blog, but the end result for me was demonic possession. I know this goes against what we are taught, but there is no other explanation for what I experienced. Oh, we could call it a spirit guide, I guess. This is why I say get away. And this would be the message of any of the disciples long ago as evidenced in the word. If we stay involved in false teaching eventually we will succumb to it. Besides our Lord is Jesus, not a man, why continue in a place that is not bringing the pure word of God? You would have nothing in common with them.
I have noticed this behavior many, many times. When a person come out of a church or movement, where you find some errors or questionable or manipulative behavior, that person often goes to the direct opposite opinion, and call those in the former church ect, led astray by the devil and under demonic influence. This is true, whether you go in an out of all christian churches. Kayla, I deeply respect, that you have begin to think for your self, and search the scriptures. But when you refer to all those anti-charisma site as your source, I think you have fallen in another “thought-trap”. Use as much skepticism to those sites as you did to your former involvement. Do you know many of those claims in these site won´t hold in a court! Some are direct plane lies. Others have taken things totally out of context (by witch you can “prove” everything. I agree, that in many charismatic churches, there is a lot of exaggerations and manipulation of feelings going on. In many non-charismatic churches and circles, there is a lot of exaggerations and manipulations of your intelectua going on.
I have many questions and I´m also wondering of many things that had developed in the charismatic movement (specielly for the last 20 years), but I have as many guestions an doubts for the more conservative part of christianety as well.
Sometimes I find myself thinking, that we maybe need a reel persecution as christians. I have for many years worked with the persecuted christian church. Before they were persecuted they call the other christian churches (brothers and sisters) for deceivers, blinded by the devils, heresy and more worse things. But when they were persecuted their heart melted before God, and they began to fellowshipped and prayed with sisters and brothers, and valued each other higher than them selves.
Giser, did you read any of my research where I was able to biblically prove the teachings of these organizations to be unfounded?
I have read a lot of sites and heard all the pro and con. I´m not going into that, sorry. But as I said, some people who have been in a group with some cult like and manipulate tendencies, when they
go out, they become as passionate as before, just to fight their former beliefs, and this is very unhealthy to your life as well.
I have seen charismatics doing the same thing, when they come out from a more traditional churches.
So it goes visa versa.
I would never rely on any site or person, that CHOOSE to be so one eyed, that they think, they have it all, and they are top of the cake, and the other (brothers and sisters) who don´t see thinks my way,
are falls brothers and sisters. Then you can be on your way to become hard in your heart towards others and the word of God!
When people ONLY can see errors in their former group, they belong too, they have become blinded a new!
Believe me, I have seen it many times in both camps.
As I mentioned previous, when christians are persecuted they find out about their real values.
Jesus mentioned, that in the last days love will grow could. If we as christians are supposed to have
the love of Christ in us, we are in danger of that!
Don´t read into this, that I don´t see errors in both camps!
Try to be as sceptical, within your new camp, as you were before.
You know in sience, when you have an hypothesis and later a statement, you are supposed to take the opposite oppinion and defend that. That will give you the oppotunity to look at your statement in a more complete manner.
God bless you sister!
Excuse me, but you didn’t answer my question.
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Once again, I’m in agreement with the observation, but not the conclusion. I’ll be specific:
“We are told if we even associate with such people we share in their evil – 2 John 8-11.”
A basic study would provide a gnostic explanation for this passage. Like I said before, one could watch any Oprah episode and see these types of heresies (the secret, positive focus etc.). Most “spiritualists” acknowldege Jesus, but don’t claim him God. I just find it a better focus of accusation. Additionally, I don’t know anyone (at least at my church) who doesn’t claim Jesus in the flesh. Interesting reference, but I don’t see the relevance.
“We should not be taking a teaching as truth simply because it is being spoken behind a pulpit or by someone who is well known. We should always search the scriptures to find out if they are true.”
I agree 100%. I have found that I am a unique part of this space (church). While several of the referenced folk would be quick to dismiss me, my group cannot. It’s actually quite “mystical” that I’ve been given leadership over a college group. Truth isn’t part time, I would agree.
“This is what I finally got around to doing when I began my research a little over a year ago. I simply took a teaching, got my concordance and my bible. And none of the things that I had been following, or had taught others like a good little parrot, were found there – none.”
I would be wary of committing the same error. Selective citation and understanding of scripture often operates as a vacuum. There are a lot things that you “practice” that only go back to the 6th century. In the end however, I’m guessing your question wouldn’t be about my beliefs, but why I stick around 🙂
On the “portals, 3rd heavens, gold dust, dominion etc.”. . Honestly, I agree. But Paul Washer’s version of “youth groups” are no where in scripture (not even at a stretch). McCarthy’s church structure completely abandones the Gospel (almost as though Jesus was completed through the works of Paul)—-Read the Paulian Gospel and try to avoid a mystical cannonization that is remarkably familar to Apostolic Rhetoric (I just think the earlier were right :)).
“What does the bible say about spiritual covering? You do not need a person or organization to cover you or your church, you are covered by Jesus Christ. Just another bad teaching to get you to come under an authority the Lord did not intend for you to have.”
With you 100% again here. I would suggest that “covered” can be conflated with any other sort of “leadership” catch phrase. Silly, not heresy.
On your story. I would never assume anything about your experience. I do have a hard time assuming that all in this arena are subject to the same outcome. This goes back to my view of Christ. The curtain tore. . .that’s it. “Possession” is not in scripture. Classical versus trade greek is common error, it was “oppression.” The nature of spiritual oppression is another thread, but if scripture is our guide, let it be just that.
One more thing, I have read 50 or so blogs on this topic. This is my second attempt at dialogue. The first I bolted (nasty reformers) 🙂
Gnostic teachings is what’s behind the delusion I speak of here.
You say this as tho we practice different things. What do you mean? And why do you stick around if the teachings aren’t biblical or if they support others whose is not?
I feel like this discussion is very general and it makes it hard to be specific. There is only one gospel message and one way to determine if teachings are about him or not – the bible. There is no getting around it. This possession/oppression thing – possession is the word I use for lack of a better one. I don’t believe oppression quite cuts it. For all I know there may not be a word for it. The point is not the appropriate word, but the seriousness of the end result, the beginning of which was false teaching.
Yes, there is no ‘covering’, rather there should be accountability, that is, real relationships whom others can reference in relation to us if the need arises. And the person who refuses to be accountable to anyone disqualifies themself from respect as a mature saint.
“On the “portals, 3rd heavens, gold dust, dominion etc.”. . Honestly, I agree. But Paul Washer’s version of “youth groups” are no where in scripture (not even at a stretch). McCarthy’s church structure completely abandones the Gospel (almost as though Jesus was completed through the works of Paul)—-Read the Paulian Gospel and try to avoid a mystical cannonization that is remarkably familar to Apostolic Rhetoric (I just think the earlier were right 🙂 ). ”
Agreed, technically, concerning Washer and Macarthur. Would you elaborate what you mean here about Paul?
I’m very glad to have found this write up. I’m a full Gospel Bible believing lover of Jesus Christ. When I first came into contact with this camp (for the lack of a better term). I couldn’t put my finger on what was wrong. I’ve met Bill, Mahesh Shavda, Kris V. just to name a few. Bill J. was the elder of one of the Churches I attended for awhile. It took me moving several states and really starting to dig into the Word of God to find out what the issues was. Pure and simple they are false teachers. Why don’t they know. Well the Word says in Jude that they don’t know they are deceived. Jude also says that we are supposed to pray for them and help those we can. I also did an in depth association with Mike Bickle, Chuck Pierce, Vineyard, IHOP etc. etc. and these guys are all related. It go’s all the way back to the early, early eighties and late 70’s. It’s startling how they just feed off one another. My biggest concern is lately I’ve heard sermons of them discounting the Word of God. I can live with worshiping on different days, eating different foods and other practices because Romans 14 says so. However when you start to denounce the Word of God in place of the Spirit then you are treading on thin ice. It’s both. You have to have the Spirit and the Word. Anyways I don’t want to get started. God Bless you and I pray that this experiences hasn’t turned you off from moving and operating in the Spirit and the Truth of God’s Word. I’ve known many people that all of a sudden go into a spiritual coma when they get out of one of these places. Yes you should be praying your Will be done etc., but don’t be so paralyzed that you yourself aren’t fulfilling the will of God in your life. God Bless and peace be with you.
Thanks for your input. Who’s to say for certain whether or not they know they are deceived. Some would simply rather have the fame and fortune that comes with having knowledge or the secret recipe that no one else does. They like the authority and power that comes with it. That’s what the dreams, visions, supernatural experiences create and those listening want to have the same things and so run after them, listening and hanging on to every word, the next prophecy, the next season, the next resource. It’s contagious and addicting. How much like sheep we truly are!
These false teachers and prophets carry with them and impart a spirit other than the Holy Spirit. One that can be and is passed around from one willing person to the next. It is powerful and very deceiving. Those who do not know the true work of the Holy Spirit and how He operates in the life of a believer are pulled right into it, becoming demonized.
Do you have links to the sermons in which they discounted the word of God? That would be very interesting to hear.
I agree as would most of us, we are to warn and pray for those teaching false doctrine and those following them. I have had some testimonies here telling of people coming out, or of their friends. It is an amazing wonder to see God work. We don’t know how He does it or when or with whom, but suddenly – there’s the testimony. It makes the work I do so worth it and it reminds me I only need to do the part that He has called me to and He does the rest. Praise God!
When people come out of charismania, word of faith, etc. it is like being blindsided. Consider, everything you were taught, practiced, moved in, for many years to be false. All that teaching taken in, the prayer, the ministry, the prophetic words, the worship – everything, every moment – false. It is a shock and it takes time to come out. Then, there is a process of rebuilding. It is miraculous, but not quick. So while it may seem like a spiritual coma please keep in mind it is a process and not a quick work and one that only God can perform. God is not in a hurry. Some time ago He told me to stop being so concerned about hearing His voice and start reading His Word. Why? It’s the only way to know Him, His teachings, His methods, the why’s of supernatural experiences. It is the only way to separate the false experiences from the true ones. It is a very important process and no one coming out of these movements and teachings should try to get around it.
I enjoyed hearing from you! 🙂
I thank God that He had led me to this blog and all the articles and comments.
I have recently lost my brother to a “new” ministry. He used to be a part of a Bible – believing church, that I saw good balance and unity in, concerning the Holy Spirit and His right ministry (bringing glory to the Father and Son, equipping the believers, convicting the world of sin…)
But my brother started visiting other churches, and became intrigued with Bethel worship, and started longing for “more” of the Holy Spirit, more knowledge of the Word and it’s prophetic meanings. He found a church that, when I try to research what they actually believe, is seems like it’s a combination of Apostolic Reformation theology, Dominionism, and also legalism, add they call for a return to the Torah and Old Testament to study it extensively, so that the New Testament can be correctly understood. They say they are an Elijah ministry, with the anointing of the spirit of Elijah to call to repentance and return of the “corrupt” church with their “corrupt” doctrine.
They say they are in no way affiliated with movements like Bethel, IHOP, Vineyard, Bentley, etc…
But after much research, I’m finding that their teachers, “apostles”, and “prophets”, agree with and even quote from the same false teachers as many of those movements I listed, do.
Some of this ministry’s “prophets” that they learn from are also featured on that website The Elijah List.
The ministry is called Forerunner International, and it’s founder is Michael Petro. They have churches in Southern California, Victorville being one of the cities.
Every time I read some of their stuff or watch some of their videos of teaching, I only hear twisted ways of looking at the Word of God, the Bible.
And they have long long classes/services where they spend hours learning greek and hebrew, so they can know the “mysteries and fiery secrets” in the Word only available to those who have ears to hear and eyes to see (their own words).
It seems to be a fairly new ministry, being founded in the 80’s/90’s, but it seems like an older deception that they preach.
I’ve had the hardest time finding any info on them, unless it’s straight from them about themselves.
I finally found the founders testimony on a website called Open Heaven.com and what I read was very disturbing as he shares he sat under Kathryn Kuhlman ministry, and says that healings and gold dust, gold teeth, etc, follow him in the places he preaches at.
Do you know any thing about this website Open heaven.com or about this ministry Forerunner by Michael Petro? Mornay Johnson?
I’m so heartbroken for my brother.
I’m overwhelmed. I don’t want to listen directly to all their false teaching, but it’s been hard trying to research and put puzzle pieces together of what they actually believe, cuz there’s so few info of them online.
I know without a doubt it’s false.
I was just wondering if you had any insight into the website, ministry, and people I mentioned?
Thank you and God bless you.
I would say without a doubt you know what you are talking about. The name Open Heavens is familiar and a quick look at their website confirmed your concerns. I haven’t heard of Forerunner, altho I used to live in the Victorville area for quite a few years. Small world. I am sorry for your brother and I know it is heartbreaking! Don’t give up, just keep praying. Great work on your part! 🙂
Blessings to you my sister! ❤
I have a friend who has recently started attend this church …..it has thrown me for a loop for sure as I don’t really understand what exactly they believe…. some sounds good and some I’m like what did she say? If u have anymore info on their false teachings I would appreciate it.
Hi! Which church are you referring to? These are old comments! Thanks! I’ll try to help.
Forerunner …. Michael Petro ….. now I think it’s called voice of healing ?…..they were in California and have now moved to Texas ….my friend calls him apostle Michael Petro … anything u can find will help ….I’m very concerned for her
Sami is your friend in temecula
Do you have friends in this cult? They’re currently located in Winchester., but apparently moving to Texas.
Hi Sami, I don’t know anything about this organization. Have you looked into it? Sound word of faith to me, among other things.
Good morning.I just found your site through Kings Bride Forum and I’m really glad to have read this. I think that oftentimes I’m careful; almost to a fault. INmother words, a lot of times goings on in the church will “bother me” and I won’t know why. On the surface I cant point out to anything that’s exactly contrary to scripture and I dare not try to question the hearts of others. But there’s that “troubling.” Usually when this happens, I’ll find out lter on why I was troubled.
This is going to sound completely irrelevant in comparison to what you have been through. For three years I’ve been attending a church with Rhema leanings as the pastor attended this college. The saints seem to have a sincerety for the things of God. Lately, however, the worship has changed. It has just gotten….strange and I’m not sure as to what’s transpiring. The first thing that I always do is examine to see if I’m getting out of sorts. Again, I see nothing unscriptural taking place. But there’s the familiar “crunch.” The feeling that something is wrong.
For two days afterwards I was troubled. Now I’ve been in worship services where the power of God was so present that I was still soaring five days later. But this had me disturbed. (Actually it had been building, but this particular morning it became no longer deniable.) I prayed much; asking the Lord for understanding on this and direction as to where to go from here. I really try to be careful as I’m very fearful of misassigning things if they are of God. But we also must be aware that the enemy will strive to contaminate anything. In other words, I don’t like to say anything until I’m certain.
Finally, late one evening, I was at work, still troubled by what had transpired almost 36 hours ago. Around 11:00pm something began to happen. I found my thoughts drifting back to the year 1988 and a small baptist church in Virginia where I had begun to fellowship. They were not a full gospel church and while I was in disagreement with them over issues concerning this, they nonethtless had an authenticity that I had seen in very few places. First was a real heart for the lost. Seriously; they hit the streets every Saturday, street preaching, sharing the gospel with whosoever had an ear, and what have you. They supported several missionaries which, according to the monies coming in, was impossible. This compassion for the lost was the thing that caused me to stay with them. (Until returning to Michigan in Jan of 1989.)
I then found myself remembering the worship. They had no complex worship team; just sister Brown playing a piano. But the songs….the songs were out of this world. The old stuff like “Victory in Jesus” and “The Old Rugged Cross” “Hold the Fort” “At Calvary” the list goes on. They would start singing those lyrics and the shouting would begin. Not a worked up shouting, but a sincere worship; praising God for saving us from our sins. It was real. It was sooooooo authentic. And I miss it tremendously. And as I mentioned to another with whom I shared this situation, it’s astonishing that the roof never gave way from all of the singing and shouting.
That night, while working at my station, my thoughts went from troubled to rejoicing in the Lord as these old lyrics played in my thoughts and memories of those times flooded in. I literally had a revival at work. And I look at so much of what passes for worship today and wonder “what have we lost?” We have a nice show that moves the feet, but little in content. And when it’s all over, folks stream out and head off to their favorite restaurant thinking “we had an awesome worship service today.”
Sorry for the long comment. Again this is very insignificant compared to your conversation on this page, but it’s another piece of a puzzle that causes one to scratch their head. As of now, I’m seriously looking for another church, but I know that most venues will only offer more of the same. Lately there have been stirrings of a house fellowship. This I’m also keeping in prayer. The times as they are, it’s imperative to be in the Lords perfect will; even if all of the brethren explain why it cannot possibly be Gods will.
I’m glad to have found your site. Blessings always in Jesus name.
Thanks so much for this testimony. May the Lord grant all of us discernment in these final hours.
Hi Timbob. Nice to “meet” you.
Your discernment is probably better than what you think it is. Often, at least with me, I have found it hard to identify at first, like you said, something is there but we just can’t quite get it. The lies are shrouded and usually are the same as from the beginning -a little bit of lie is mixed with the truth. Or maybe it’s a little bit of truth mixed in with the big fat lie. It creeps in almost unnoticed, or gets explained away through feelings or experiences and before you know it, the church is wrapped in false doctrine and all that goes with it. I believe the hook is the false teaching and once a person accepts and agrees with it as truth, soon follows the rest – the false prophets/prophecies, false worship, etc. until the people are bound by the demonic. Some say oppression, but I believe it is much worse and more like possession, or some prefer the word demonized. No matter what we call it, the truth is that the person is no longer operating under the power and presence of the Holy Spirit, but is controlled by a demon.
Some of the false teachers are very easy to spot. For instance, I think Todd Bentley’s teaching is so off, it’s obvious. It amazes me that people who have spent years in the bible or claim they have are deceived by him. If you go to the two articles I put up on his teaching of the Holy Spirit, you will see what I mean. Towards the end is nothing but a bunch of jumbled thoughts that contradict each other but more importantly have no basis whatsoever in scripture. On the other hand, Bill Johnson is one who is not so easy to call out. He is cunning – very well spoken/written, and I have to pay close attention. I think there is real danger in this man and see him as a leader uprising in the NAR.
There is much to be said about today’s worship. And I can also identify with the thinking suddenly it is different. It’s probably more evidence something has taken over. Worship is supposed to be about God, not about how we feel about ourselves. It should not edify or lift up the people, but God. There is an effect that worship will lighten our spirits, but the defining line between true worship and false worship is so close. This is why I believe many are deceived by the false worship. If you can find out who the worship team has been listening to, either in worship music or in teaching, if you can find that you will have found the “root” lie or teaching. I’ve noticed everything connects back together – somewhere – in the latter rain movement/word of faith/kingdom now or dominion/manifest sons of god/presence-hearing his voice/false signs and wonders…etc.
We sing hymns at our church, mixed with other songs. I am finding most people prefer them to the more popular ccm. For me, I get tired of hearing the radio in church. I’ve felt that for years and it makes no sense to me why we have to borrow and pay for a recording artist’s work. I think God puts minstrels in all worship gatherings. If we have people who can play instruments, we have those who can write lyrics. They need to come forward! Worship is a very big struggle for me because the music that so influenced me – Vineyard, IHOP and some of the other more popular names have roots in a false spirit and their worship is about that “thing”, not God. There are songs that I refuse to sing along to, and even words or phrases that I refuse to repeat back to God.
Thank you for taking the time to let me know what you are experiencing. I believe it is important that we support others in these crazy times. I bless and praise the Lord God that my blog has been helpful. Write anytime. 🙂
Agreeing with you for discernment and deliverance for the people of God.
I am reading here and learning. I do have a question: Who is Bill Johnson, and what does he do? I have googled his name, but it is very common, and I’m not coming up with anything specific, only generic.
My blog is full of info on Bill Johnson. If that is not sufficient, Heralding Truth has quite a bit, as do others on my blog roll.
Dear M’Kayla, I am so glad to read your story and comments. My sister’s family recently moved to Redding to be a part of Bethel and I have a Brother-in-law who pastors a church and is very “enamored” with that whole group. At first I thought “wow, must be something pretty great for them to move across the country and away from family…” So I began to listen to the weekly sermons. Each week my heart sank lower and I grieved to realize that THIS was what they had set their hearts upon. The pastors teach “the gospel according to Bill Johnson” and spot-check scriptures to twist according to the desires of their own hearts. Sometimes it’s just in passing comments, but surely there are some in the congregation who see “red flags” going up? Does their love for their pastors blind them and overpower their love of God and His Word?
In the children’s ministry section of their website they talk about infants and preschoolers having “visions” and participating in “firetunnels”, and emboldening children in the ways of “signs and wonders”. May God have mercy on those children. I can only pray that God will protect my little neice and nephew from demonic influences.
I understand more and more why we are admonished to take up the WHOLE council of God – His Word is unshakeable. We know what scripture says because scripture tells us. Some things can sound contrary, but that is simply because WE don’t understand properly – not because scripture contradicts itself! We can take comfort in Paul’s words to hold fast to the sound doctrine/teaching that we have been given – it will keep us from blowing with the changing winds and give us true discernment.
Keep praying as you read scripture that God will show you who He is. The more we know the TRUE God, the more we understand the incredible, merciful, wonderous miracle that is salvation of a sinner’s heart! Thanks for letting me preach to myself here a bit, and I hope to encourage you. Many blessings to you, Susu
Susu, you posed a very important question –
>>Does their love for their pastors blind them and overpower their love of God and His Word? <<
Yes. There IS something behind this movement of "apostles and prophets" of the NAR who want complete control over its followers. These people who get caught up in it are no different from those involved in cults. But this has been true for many years. Those involved long ago in the word of faith/prosperity teachings did the same. They are very quick to defend their leaders and teachers even those they have never met them in person. They will come against anyone who tries to show them differently including friends and family members. They speak of love and unity, but this is not the true love of God, nor the unity of believers the bible teaches. I put up an article called Kingdoms to show how this movement is setting up in different areas here in the US. The NAR is very dangerous and their teachings can be found in many ministries and churches. With the use of the internet their teachings are readily available and so the contamination of the false doctrine spreads more easily than it did 20 years ago.
Bill Johnson/Bethel in Northern CA
Peter Wagner/Chuck Pierce/Cindy Jacobs in Texas – they have individual ministries but are joined
Dutch Sheets in Colorado (once upon a time he was going to take the place of Wagner, but I don't think this has happened)
Mike Bickle IHOP in Kansas City
Rick Joyner (North Carolina??? I can't think where he is exactly) and of course, Todd Bentley now resides there. This is the former location of PTL
Rhema in Oklahoma (not really NAR, but powerful WOF, which NAR believes in and teaches. I think original false WOF doctrine came from Hagin)
International Association of Healing Rooms in Spokane, WA (1000 or so "rooms" worldwide, B Johnson is on board of directors)
Then you can add those who teach supernatural and false prophecy
John Paul Jackson who recently relocated his blasphemy to Texas
Kim Clement in Hollywood, CA
These are the ones I can think of, the most influential. Add to that the various ministries and churches and you will see the infiltration. The Swine flu doesn't hold a candle to this deadly virus.
People are following “movements” because they have bought into the idea that they have heard from their trusted leader or pastor that God is doing a new thing, that there has been a mandate given from Him to accomplish a certain “thing” in this time. If you listen, you will see the same words and phrases repeated between most of these NAR leaders and their nutty prophets – a shift, a change, a time of multiplication and on it goes. It is the prophet that will determine what God is doing now as God speaks to them through dreams and visions and other supernatural experiences and the apostle will tell the people how to carry that out. Realizing for years they have been dupped into believing they are sinners, (and some go as far as to say that the disciples in the bible MISSED IT!) when in reality they are supernatural beings created in the likeness of God. They have a rightful place to claim their kingdom authority and power, walking out kingdom theology in the truth that they are in fact, sons and daughters of a king, they will begin to operate in signs and wonders – feathers, gold dust, teeth, oil, dreams and visions and all kinds of supernatural experiences, prophetic words used in evangelism, rather than the word of God. It is a demented twist to the perfect plan and reality of the true Kingdom of God. These are in fact, false signs and wonders, but just beginning as I think they will grow into much larger feats than just these. But it is a dramatic starting place for the demonic and the rise of the antichrist. And these leaders like Bill Johnson has it down – take it to the streets. So, this is not just a matter of what goes on behind closed doors in churches or in small meeting groups. This is out there called Marketplace Ministry. I first heard of this from Cindy Jacobs before I ever knew about Bill Johnson or John Paul Jackson. They go to street corners, businesses like Walmart and they contaminate all they touch.
No one wants to be “left out of what God is doing now”. So, they go along with it, hoping this IS the time of the great revival. From all of my reading I see this is what happened during the Toronto Blessing and other such movements. People got caught up in all of the emotionalism and forgot their bible and their God right along with it. They often use the phrase that God can do anything, or don’t put God in a box. God CAN do anything, but He will not violate His word or His own character. They have forgotten His love and forgiveness and the simple fact that we are sinners saved by grace. It is the kindness of God that leads one to repentance. They have also forgotten how powerful and majestic He is, and as easily as He brought forth life into them, He could in the same manner blow them into dust.
I know this is an older post M’kayla, but something you and the person you’re replying to mentioned brought this to mind, concerning Bill Johnson.
Bill says in one of his books, I think it’s ‘When Heaven Invades Earth,’ that God is centering the NAR movement around ‘fathers’ instead of doctrine.
And when I read that, I thought of three words, namely ‘cult of personality.’
There is only one Father the church is centered on. In fact, Jesus says in one place to call no man on earth your father, for you have one father in heaven (Matt 23:1-12).
This is really what the whole thing is about: power over other people. They buy into the person, and then whatever the person says is pretty much infallible. And if that isn’t anti-Christ, I don’t know what is.
Yes, they esteem people above the Lord – their “Culture of Honor”.
LOL, Danny Silk’s ‘Culture Of Honor’ is one I have read- or at least tried to read. I don’t think I ever finished it, but I might have. That book especially was one of the more difficult ones to process and accurately analyze.
If his anecdotal accounts in it are to be taken at face value, then at least partially they are ‘on to something,’ but, unfortunately, it’s tainted with ‘mixture’ as described above by ianvincent. On the one hand there are accounts of lovingly confronting people who have sinned and helping them through life-altering circumstances into a real, substantial change in character and behavior, giving all credit to Jesus. And on the other, there’s a lack of gravitas, as it were, concerning the nature of sin. I mean, it’s great if people understand why they have a specific, personal propensity towards a given sin, so they can guard against it if circumstances or internal issues tend to draw them in that direction. We are neither one of us cessationists, and I would say we both believe, and have seen how the Lord can intervene sovereignly in such matters to bring needed insight. Certainly he loves all people and because they are His creations, they deserve the ‘honor’ of getting to know him (I’m paraphrasing Silk here.)
However, the ‘culture of honor’ described in Silk’s book goes much further than these simple statements would lead one to assume. In theory and practice what is presented starts off in, but deviates from, the concepts of ‘word of wisdom’ (defined in a classic, Pentecostal sense as a God-given insight into a situation) and evangelism. I’m convinced that this is how the extra-biblical stuff gets accepted, in the same way that Scientology puts across its more esoteric beliefs and practices: by bundling something that works, and is true, with something that’s bizarre and off the wall, and impressing on all and sundry that they’re inextricably linked.
Even so, I can see how people can easily take the material Silk presents out of the bounds of what’s actually said and into la-la land. Not being in or around the Bethel network any longer, I can’t testify as to current practice. I can say what I observed when I left, namely, it was headed into a ‘cult of personality’ direction, where one had to be ‘aligned’ to receive one’s ‘assignment’ (which dovetails nicely with the ‘governed by apostles and prophets’ stance of the NAR) and labeling all disagreement as immaturity or having a ‘spirit of _____,’ which is tantamount to calling a fellow believer demon possessed. A grave charge, especially if leveled publicly.
Much of what Bill presents was also taught by Earl Paulk, who at one time had an 11,000 member congregation in Atlanta, and that disintegrated over sexual impropriety. I don’t see Bill and his staff heading in that particular direction, but seeing how Todd Bentley’s situation was dealt with, it does give one pause.
I really wish there wasn’t a need to respond to such publications, but there is, because of their popularity and their tendency, due to errors in both doctrine and practice, to lead people astray. The early church fathers didn’t shy away from thorough, detailed responses to their critics and neither should we.
It’s also worth noting that, when Bill Johnson took over as senior pastor at Bethel, half the congregation left within about a year, and eventually Bethel separated from its parent denomination, the Assemblies Of God. This also happened with the Metro Vineyard (now Metro Christian Fellowship) in Kansas City (which birthed the IHOP phenomenon) and the Airport Vineyard in Toronto (now Airport Christian Fellowship, host to the ‘Toronto Blessing’)- though their removal from the Association of Vineyard Churches ended up being too little, too late IMHO.
Hi David. Thank you for that information. I had to LOL myself because I didn’t realize,, or maybe had forgotten, Culture of Honor was actually a book. I remember it more as a way of thinking…I have enjoyed your insight here and your recap of Bethel history. I was just getting involved in IAHR when BJ announced their separation from AoG. Shortly afterward, they conducted a union, a marriage -by their own words- with Iris Ministries, headed by Rolland and Heidi Baker.
It was in my own experience in the false prophetic and the “marketplace outreach”, words would be given to the curious, but not much was said about their sin or need for repentance – not much, if at all. The focus was placed on the individual, how much God loved them, and how they would do great things in their lives. People would leave, encouraged, but no better regarding a true relationship with God thru Christ, when indeed, that is why Christ to earth, suffered, died, rose again. He is the heart of the true prophetic and to remove one point from the focus is to destroy the work set before them. This was very popular throughout the false prophetic kingdom. This is one of the practices that makes Bethel and the many “mini-me churches since created, so dangerous.
Again, thank you for your kind, and interesting contribution! 🙂
1. I still don’t see the connection between “experience chasing” and “demonic manifestations.” Couldn’t it follow that “experience chasing” and “heresy hunting” are a quite similar psychological behavior?
2. Is it possible (for lets say, me) to belong “loosely” to a church that recognizes some of these folks?
I enjoy a good horror flick. I find it interesting that we are easily engaged in a horror story that based on “Christian” mythology (demons, devils, etc.). I find it even more interesting that all this power is assigned to the various spirit or demon, and zero power is assigned to our Lord. Typically, we (in the story) are deceived, cursed or “hang” with the wrong crowd. Just about act of heroics in these stories rest on something that “we” have to do. We must find the right artifact, or knife, or chant the right incantation. Never (aside from the recent Hillary Swank flick) does the power rest simply in our Lord (and her version was questionable).
My argument rests in a criticism of both the accuser and accused (yourselves and charismania). Both employ the powerlessness of our Lord in different fashions.
While I do agree that there are instances of deception and possibly an evil influence. But too suggest one who seeks our Lord, recognizes the Cross can so easily be “unsaved” or “tainted by the devil” is questionable at best. I don’t serve that King.
Plotinus! I thought I’d lost you!!!
1. Those who are chasing experiences are actually witnessing demonic manifestations. Assuming when we say “experience chasers” we speak of those who flock to the last place of demonstration of supernatural phenomena – feathers, oil, gems, gold dust, etc. I guess experience chasing and heresy hunting could prove to be similar in behavior given the thrill in seeking phenomena and speaking gossip. But, hmmm…I have to wonder, are you calling me a heresy hunter???
Is is possible for you to belong loosely to a church of this crowd?? Yes, absolutely – loosely or tightly. You are created with a free will to do whatever you want. We all are.
Horror flicks. Yeesh. It just goes to prove we can’t count on Hollywood to give us the truth. I am with you. They certainly do place the power of satan over God, but that is the lie from satan. But you used the phrase Christian mythology. Does this mean you doubt the existence of evil, of satan and the demons?
Hillary Swank movie – I am guessing this to be Amelia…???? Haven’t seen it so I can’t comment on the vision. Sorry.
I don’t know what you have read here that would leave you to believe I write of or believe myself that our God is powerless. Quite the opposite! I do believe that we are free to worship whatever we choose. If we wander from the truth, listen and agree with false teaching and prophecy we are subject to demonic attack – all the way to possession, rendering the person incapable of hearing the truth. I don’t think this happens over night. I do want to emphasize that there must be agreement. That seems to be the key between those who are carried off into deception and those who are not.
This is not because God is powerless or weak, but because He lets us make that decision. Because He is the good shepherd, I believe He will go after the one who has wandered. However, the time comes when those deceived will no longer hear His voice as they have listened to the deceiver for so long, and agreed with the deceiver, he has become the true shepherd or better yet, true lord. Those who truly seek the Lord will not be caught up in the deception. The difference is those who seek the Lord in truth, and those who listen to those who claim to speak for Him but are liars – wolves amongst the flock.
This is the point when I wrote in this article that I had been hearing word of faith doctrine for so many years, just a little here and there, when I turned to Christ I thought it was the truth. No, it does not happen quickly, but it does happen because of free will, certainly not because God is lacking in power.
There are so many scriptures in the old testament in which God tells His people to not mix with those of other religions. The history of the o.t. is full of these kinds of warnings. But, the people do it anyway and are taken over by their ways. The same can be said of the New Testament. There are loads of scriptures in which Jesus and His disciples warned others to stay away from non believers, not to mix with them and certainly warnings of false doctrine, false christs and false prophesies. I have many articles discussing these teachings. So, I am going along with the teachings of our Lord in warning others. No one wants to go through what I did. Not in the experiences and not in the struggle it was to get out. It was hell. This is why I warn of the false teachings taking over the church that is so evident today. Why be a part of them, even loosely, when the Lord has expressly told us not to? A little bit of leven works through the lump of dough. We were forewarned.
Hi,first time on your site, love it…like your views on Todd Bently I agree, I’m a rock guitarist from mid 60’s…believe that rock music has no place in church worship…in a Rolling Stones magazine interview 1976, David Bowie said, rock music is the devils music, always has, always will,& is very dangerous…while on that subject…a quote from satanist Aleister Crowley, (ALL music promotes worship in some form): emphasis mine…thank you for reading my mail, God bless, CIAO Leon.
Hi Leon. Thanks for the comment. It is quite scary what we are allowing as worship!
By Christian mythology I was pointing to mid-evil Catholic types of legend (incubus, grails, etc.).
I’m not assuming your a typical “heresy hunter.” I apologize for the misunderstanding.
Your ideas on deception, wandering, and free will is a fine point of stasis for us. Once again, I believe you have morphed error into a spiritual manifestation. If an immature “seeker” finds themselves wrapped up in an NAR type theology that turns out flawed, gets hurt I still don’t see the scriptural connection to “wolves.” Jesus (and Paul) only spoke to heretical doctrines that:
1. Engaged in Polytheism (and there is a ton of those). They essentially recognized Christ as prophet or shamen as well as the tree on the front lawn.
2. Christ not flesh (gnostic all over the place).
3. Or those that blaspheme the spirit (basically call it something else, or their own).
Paul spoke to other mysterious Greek and Roman mythologies that morphed the Cross into their own religious dogmas.
Remember, I have no intent on minimizing your experience. I actually believe it to be true and not that atypical. However, I am not quick to assign Lucifer as the CEO of a lot of movements you name. If I used that framework I would do the following:
1. Catholics as complete heresy for papalism and intercessory requirements.
2. Various Baptists, methodists, calvinists etc. because of marital “rights” without proper training. Is destroying a marriage (based on council) and consequently a family and thus lives not under the same scrutiny? Just about every denomination builds in counseling methods without any training or education. And they all are guilty of destroying lives. . . are they in league with Lucifer as well?
Essentially, every manifestation was clear, accepted and easily identified. The “wolves” are more difficult. Jesus (and Paul) point to the “secret” types with sweat tents and “like” Jesus as well as the Sadartha—they fit into the scripture, most of the referenced others don’t.
I can go to a meeting and see 100 people flopping around, dancing, laughing etc. If 99 of them are just caught up in the moment, is the Lord there?
I believe that satan is a deceiver and that he can come in many forms and ways. When we move from the true meaning of scripture, he is behind it. He is behind any move or teaching, movie or book, etc. that would cause a person to not believe in the Most High and the need for repentance and salvation that is found only in His Son, Jesus.
I do believe that the teachings we hear now and the weird manifestations and supernatural phenomena not outlined in the bible comes from satan. I don’t know or understand all of the inner workings or the root system behind how he works. I do know they come from other religions and some from the occult. The end result of any other religion is satan.
I believe the warnings in the bible to beware of such teachings and to flee from those teachers and their doctrine apply in all such situations and throughout all generations. Wolves come in unnoticed and kill the sheep because the shepherd is no longer keeping watch. It is a simple concept. I also believe in the “whole counsel of the Word”, meaning the bible is written as a whole book. We can’t take one scripture or one chapter and find complete truth in it because it isn’t written that way. So to say that Jesus or the disciples were only speaking to a specific group or for a specific time is not accurate. The bible speaks for all situations and in all times.
Christ made us free from the rule of others and from the law. It is the way of humanity to want to take that rule back. It is also the way of mankind to be his own god. Hence the doctrine of NAR. It is the same bottom line lie as in the garden of eden – the argue of what God really said or meant and the argue that man can become like Him. In whatever form it comes- NAR, Catholicism, protestant, eastern religions or the teaching of Anton LaVey, the lie and the deception remains the same.
NAR and Catholicism both absolutely recognize Jesus as Lord. Both recognize the nature of God (trinity etc.). Both have “heard” and “believe.” Undeniably, Jesus only condemned ONE: those who hear and do not believe. There is no Gospel, canonized or not, that denies this.
Practice, endgame theory, behavior, minor doctrines etc. will and cannot separate us from the what HE did on the cross.
Now, I agree with most of the error and silliness. I even feel that some of it grounded in sin (power, abuse and greed). But to suggests that any of us operate outside this nature is childish (just like they are).
The lie is NOT the same. I would ascribe heresies to the New Age, and cultic morphing of the Gospel. Morphing of “lifestyle” or “practice” is not heresy, never. None of us have all of it right. We can only point to the Cross, that’s it. That’s the choice and how it gets “written.”
M: We’re gonna stay cool with each other. 🙂
Plotinus, how much reading have you done on NAR doctrine? Yes, they start out “Jesus is Lord” but end in a much different place – Apostles and Prophets become lord. The teachings of Manifest Sons of God or previously some called it Manchild is a morphing of believers who will actually embody Christ, removing the rapture or the bodily second coming of the Lord. This doctrine is absolute heresy. Catholicism is much in the same way but the Pope is the lord over the people. It is one thing to call Jesus Lord but something entirely different for Him to actually BE Lord.
I have an article and video – Bob Jones, the Coming Years that shows this very clearly. If you aren’t aware, Jones is much sought after seer prophet who has influenced many – Bill Johnson, Todd Bentley, Mike Bickle. Listen to, read his prophecy and then tell me this man and this prophecy based on NAR/MSOG is okay. You will not be able to because his claims clearly deny sound teaching of the bible. Yet, many, many follow after him and his lies.
True believers cannot be separated from the Lord because they follow Him, only – His voice, His teachings. This are the ones who compare teachings of men to the bible, not being deceived. Many who once stood for the Lord no longer do. They have followed another voice. There are scriptures that teach believers will fall away. It is not only a matter of those who hear and do not believe, but those who once followed and now no longer do, deceiving many. Please search the word for this and you will see what I speak is the truth.
Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out demons? and in your name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
Stand fast therefore in the liberty with which Christ has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if you be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
The first describes many modern charismatics and the latter, catholicism and its daughter variants.
They all had basically sound doctrine, preached ‘the cross’ and confessed Jesus as Lord and called on His name.
Thanks Ian! It all comes back to the word and it’s proper teaching, doesn’t it? I appreciate your contribution!
George Barna surveyed evangical and other pastors and quite a significant number admitted they view pornography. I forget the exact figure, was it 30%?
For the most part you could not fault their doctrine, yet these are heading for hell if they don’t repent.
One can’t be pleading the Blood whilst simultaneously trampling it underfoot and recrucifying the Lord.
I think the Barna survey alludes to a phenomena happening today where a sound evangelical pastor can be a good Bible teacher and even help many with his teaching (bcos it is scripture truth) and yet still be against the Jesus of the Bible, an enemy of Christ.
Which ‘jesus’ and which ‘spirit’?
What does ‘believe’ mean? A catholic believes in ‘jesus’ plus mary , plus who knows what else, for their salvation, so are they are believer in Jesus? No. A ‘jesus’ yes.
Ian: Wiccan’s, several new age cults, sects of Islam, buddhism etc. all speak and act in the name of Jesus. Just about every contemporary religion points to Jesus as a prophet and or a god (small god). Advocates of several offshoots of the “secret” articulate Jesus as a springboard for spiritual advance. In Mat. Jesus was speaking of “copycats” or “fakes”—there were several magician types roaming around using His name. Now if these folks are doing that, they will suffer. However, to assume that followers of these people will suffer—has no reasonable or scriptural foundation. I would suggest reading about the church in corinth and what they were doing. Paul didn’t toss them into the fire, he corrected them. It might open your eyes a bit about “sin” and “grace.”
Additionally, I am sure that several false teachers will suffer the same fate. I am also sure that it will be equally spread among all of Christianity—ALL of it.
IAN: Without really understanding who each of those passages were targeting, you only sound contradictory. Jesus warns us all. The Galatians were like the McCarthyites and Washerians 🙂
Plotinus, i don’t take anything you’ve said seriously.
Paul called them to repent and they did.
Matt. 7:21-23 is atypical of charismatic type people with signs and wonders, it’s not atypical of non charismatic groups. Of course non charismatic groups can be just as much in error.
I was just making comparisons.
As for “throwing them in the fire” i’ll just take that as a nervous reaction to the scriptures i posted.
When we treat scripture as a puzzle, we tend to be confined to each piece we select. . . in that order. Once piece looks nothing like the other and often appears contradictory. When in fact, it is not riddled by nature. The Gospels are accounts (as well as Acts), and then we have lots of letters and finally a vision.
To suggest that one letter has equal application as the other is childish. They may have equal value, but not equal interpretation. Otherwise, Paul would have only written one letter to all the churches.
The only reason that some “charismatic types” may get nervous and defensive by your selected puzzle piece is because they also treat it in the same fashion. They may shuffle frantically to find another piece that helps form their picture.
Paul called them all to repent for various reasons, he also celebrated all of there “stuff.” Each one had different value etc. He didn’t treat his salvation as correction, but as fulfillment.
Sure there is “Jesus plus Mary.” I don’t see anything different between that and Calvinistic “Jesus plus these steps” or reformer “Jesus minus sin” or even “Jesus plus mysticism”—Most of the negative salvation types define themselves by what they don’t do.
I get your comparisons, but I also don’t operate in a vacuum.
Atypical means “non-typical”–but that’s only when you take me seriously.
Plotinus, like I commented on the B Jones article, I don’t think you are all that interested in the Word. You seem to find one way after another that we are wrong. We don’t believe that we are, thus we warn others. If there wasn’t a need for warning, so many of them wouldn’t have been written in the Word. Many warnings, throughout history to flee liars, all of them for different reasons, and different times, but all of them relevant today. Not much has changed in the way we think. Not much has changed in the way satan deceives. Narrow is the road leading to salvation. Your posts seem to attempt to widen that road which is nothing but another lie. I’ve tried to understand you, I cannot. I think you are only here to argue. If we don’t agree that is fine, but these attempts to communicate have become futile and pointless and edify no one. There is no learning taking place here an no cohesive discussion that I feel is worth continuing.
What would it be like if the original Apostles could come back and meet the ‘apostles’ and leaders of today? Fireworks? Talk about some angry men there.
The other day a brother here was asking me about apostles today, and i told him that the original Apostles ARE our Apostles. My Apostles are Paul, John, Peter… under the Chief Apostle, the LORD Jesus Christ. They are our apostles bcos we take their words very seriously and do them. Like 1 Cor. 14, for example, 13 too, as examples.
Those men had true Christian character, which you can hardly find today in leaders.
Fireworks? I think they’d nuke us.
Oh, by the way Ian, very good point.
We should work out our salvation in fear and trembling. I’m tired of this “familiar Papa” who has no greatness, no power, and who sits in a rocking chair smoking a pipe, seeming more like santa claus than God! Where has the fear of the one true God gone?
Plotinus, There’s nothing intelligent or respectful in your blurbs. You answer every point made with a stupid irrelevant comment.
MK: Little confused about your last post. I hope I don’t sound like a Troll, but my position is simple: I agree with most of the observations, I just don’t agree with the conclusion.
Aside from that, what lie do you speak of? I have not watered down any part of the Gospel, nor have I presented a position that weakens my Lord, either in character or power.
Your dismissal is like the common 3rd waver appeal, “renew your mind by abandoning it.” :)—yikes.
I am really interested in the narrative experience under the charismatic “waves.” I hope to learn from its exodus. Along the way, I participate.
I have accused nobody of anything. I have only presented an opinion (grounded in my understanding of scripture) that errs on the side of grace for the followers of these movements. I have no interest in defending its leadership.
Can we start over?
Plotinus, you seemed to have made up your mind in what you believe the end result is for false teaching, prophecy, signs and wonder, etc. etc. in that there is no evidence of demonic involvement. Not one person who has come out of this wicked deception will agree to that. It is fine that you think otherwise. No, we cannot start over because your method of interpreting the scripture is not the same as mine, therefore there is no foundation to build on. That is the reason for the dismissal of this conversation, which is nothing like what you quoted.
I too have grace for the followers, having had been one. But a time may come for them when grace runs out. For me, and for any level minded Christian with a true fear of God, the wild ride of charismania is not worth the end result. I can’t imagine anyone who loves the Lord would make excuses and continue in the heresy. Bill Johnson claimed grace, grace all over Todd Bentley – disgusting twist of the purpose of grace! There is none for true committed heretics such as these!
I’ve never heard anyone dispel the truth of the word quite like you do. I wonder what that is about. Either you are one of those emergent believers who believe all roads lead to a god or you just want to argue. I can’t follow you. It isn’t a matter of the brain use, mine just doesn’t have the knowledge yours does. I also believe the bible is simple and I like to keep it that way. When God says “don’t do like they, get out from among them” it’s pretty plain, as is the warning of doctrine of demons. I believe there are many, but it does not matter. What matters is the underlying message to get out from them. Period.
P1: Honestly, that’s a pretty vague accusation on your part. I thought I was clear about the agreements we share. NAR, MSOG, Latter Rain, Name It. . etc. all are somewhat childish and often create pyramid schemes within the church. I think we can agree that those types of “flesh” based theology should be challenged and those that are hurt by it are reconciled.
P2: Not sure about the scripture or reference for “grace running out.” However, when faced with a choice, we believers should be transformed, renewed etc. I believe that poor choices can lead us astray etc. However, at what point are we saved and at what point is that lost? I think you have oversimplified things. On the B. Johnson and T. Bentley thing, I came back into the church “stuff” after that was over. I don’t get it, at all. However, I do know people (that I trust) that agree with me about his theology, deception, and uncanny ability to make stuff up. Those people visited the lakeland thing and experienced some Jesus stuff. You will probably assign that experience to another source, but that is an assumption you are not allowed to make. I don’t believe the Holy Spirit is a respecter persons, at least not as much as the 3rd wavers assign. 30,000 people show up for Jesus, doesn’t matter that much who’s in charge. 30,000 people show up for the sweat boxes and “secrets,” you run into problems.
P3: I don’t get why anti-Charismania bloggers posses unique freedom in condemning a skeptical voice, then post 100 threads about why not allowing skeptical voices is the number 2 indication of a cult. MK, you don’t want dialogue or a disagreeing voice, tell me and I’ll leave. Yes I am arguing. Being critical and asking for dialogue is by nature, positive. Absent that dialogue, you have cultic belief systems. God also said “kick out the divisive” from the church. I read scripture as it written with knowledge of to whom and why it was written, and guided by the spirit.
All roads DO NOT lead to Jesus, never. I have spent a lot of time with atheists and skeptics. 90% of them are ex-fundamentalists and “reformer” types. They all share one thing in common, as distaste for dialogue and finger pointing.
I agree with the questions and some of the accusations. But the fact that my voice is not welcome, exposes hypocrisy. Don’t post this. I’ll just pray that in your healing you don’t swing your pendulum the other way.
P, I think I have been very clear in (1) we don’t agree about the end result being the presence of the demonic and (2) I don’t understand your way of thinking, therefore I find no common ground to argue. There is nothing else. This comment of yours was a very good and effective method of calling me for for what you have believed all along – a hypocrite.
I do what I do because I believe there is value in it. God will judge me for my work as He will all of us. As far as any finger pointing, the finger started with me, as I had to take a look – a good hard one – in what I was leading other people to and teaching others under the guise of “Christian Charismatic Ministry”. HA! What a joke, what a farce, what a lie! All of it. And it was only by the grace and love of God that He showed me the truth. Now I spend my time warning others who have fallen victim to those same lies and liars. If that offends you then too bad.
Oh, my friend there is more to this than “flesh” theology, much more. But for whatever reason you do not want to hear that. That too is fine, as I’ve told you that is your choice. There is no way I am going to agree that it is okay for Christians to follow after, listen to and even worship with the false. No way. God called His people OUT from among them so that they would be holy and blameless and pure. There is nothing holy or blameless or pure in the false demonically inspired charismania. Sure, it is fun, it looks like God because there IS power there. Well, where do you think the power comes from? The flesh? Hardly. Call me all the names you want. It is not a new thing for me. I guess I could do the same as some others, who do not name names, but only go after the teaching. That way we can dispel any idea of “finger pointing”. But I find it much more effective to name the names outright because America and much of charismatic Christianity has become so star struck that is all the see anymore -the person with the big famous name. Doing it by teaching only wouldn’t be so effective because most of them don’t want to crack a bible on their own. So finger point, yes, just like Paul, and I will call a liar and a money changer for what they are, just like Jesus. If you look, you will see they are guilty of all these things. They love to be in high places in the hearts and minds of man, to sit at the front of the tables, for people to call them “teacher”, they live off the hard earnings of others who trust them, they impart false teachings and doctrines of demons. I could go on and on. It is vile and wicked, they are white washed tombs. So, go on and name call. I prefer the pure teaching of the word against any of these tickling ear preachers any day! When does salvation become lost? I don’t have that answer and I don’t think anyone does. But it simply is not worth the risk!
There are some things that you do not know. If you believe Jesus was at Lakeland, you are following the wrong jesus! Bentley has no true Christian theology. He has lies and fairy tales, literally –and very dangerous ones at that. Bill Johnson says Todd failed because he was cursed by Christians. What a crock! Christians don’t curse. Bentley fell on his fat lying face because God wanted EVERYONE to know this was NOT of Him. There is never a mixture, it is biblically incorrect. And that my friend is not an assumption. It is a fact, and yes, I am allowed to make it because the word says I can and should. I think you need a little more study in these things before you come here and tell me I am wrong. I am not.
I’ve heard of the Latter Rain movement. Can you tell me what NAR and MSOG refer to? I’m drawing a blank.
Yes, NAR is New Apostolic Reformation set up by C Peter Wagner. MSOG is Manifest Sons of God, those who believe they will actually embody Christ.
MK (and to the readers): I apologize. I’m new to this blogging thing and should know that delayed interaction and tempered communication causes confusion. I apologize for allowing my quick critical nature to get the best of my intentions.
1. To negotiate my way through charismatic circles. I consider myself a “mystic” in the Platonic sense. Meaning that I believe in all of the specified gifts bestowed by the holy spirit, but do not believe I have to abandon my reason and capacity to be critical. What I have found interesting upon my return (to the organized church) is that most of “it” has morphed into strange endgame theologies.
2. I have chosen your page for participation. I hope that doesn’t sound like “your the chosen one” or “haughty” by self-appointment 🙂 But it’s a little true. I’m a little different at best (we’ll get to that later).
3. You are the first I have seen (gazing at over 25 blogs) who seems to actually care about the church in a relational sense. Most of the others are just manifesting their ignorance or their bitterness. I can visit any atheistic blog or read Hitchens to get that stuff.
4. You seem to have a better knowledge base (links, narratives etc.).
1. Christ is Lord. The act of the curtain ripping I feel was the most significant symbol (not the act) of the Cross. Among other things, It means I don’t need “anointed” people to give me “stuff.”
2. I am not a Zombie. Christianity is not the place for once a week coffee and 20 minute lectures based on sophomoric interpretations of Greek. I would rather attend a “fire” service with a bunch mistakes than hear the same old “sin” based or negative salvation rants.
3. However, that does not excuse anything. I belong to a church that does look to some of the people you point the finger at, but at the same time, the leadership listens to questions and pays attention to it’s members. Please don’t feel that have been duped. . . My personal experience, both in discipline and practice, can prove otherwise.
1. Common ground: of course we have common ground. Our point of stasis (where we differ) is basically how we engage the people involved with some of these groups and how we address their leadership. Fruit, lifestyle, peace, basic psychology, reason etc., I feel are more persuasive than the assignment of demonic manifestations and evil control. Typically, they are prepared for such arguments. Yet with dialogue, friendships and reason, they are not.
NOTE: I haven’t made a decision about a lot of the people you discuss. I haven’t made the decision to call MSOG (for example) an anti-christ theology. However, if it is “true,’ I feel comfortable saying that it’s NOT the leadership who claim it 🙂
2. “All of it”–I don’t believe all of it is a lie. If it is, we are all in trouble. Trouble meaning that we serve a just God without mercy. That the Cross (and the new covenant) was a farce. But once again, our common ground is that “some of it” or “even a lot of it” is wrong and perhaps even deceptive.
NOTE: I believe our discussions here will bear more fruit if I/we are specific in who and what we discuss. I will take the blame for that.
3. Charismania and being “starstruck”–totally agree. I working out how deal with such things with a group I lead. Yikes. But this in not unique to the church, nor is it exclusive. When I teach my students to challenge fallacious assignment of authorities (Aristotelian logic units), I don’t cast out demons for two reasons, it’s not reasonable and i’d get fired 🙂
4. Finger pointing: I agree we that it is in our task to call out wrongs and judge according to the spirit of the prophets. However, I feel that understanding the ills are easy for smart people like us:)–the difficult part is how we do it. Paul didn’t write one letter, he wrote a lot and wrote them specifically with demographic understanding–both spiritual and practical. Sometimes he tossed tables, sometimes he reasoned and sometimes he called out sin. Once again, I apologize for the accusation–really–I shouldn’t have done that.
5. Lakeland: I have no interest in Bentley or his rantings. I haven’t decided about the core of what he was doing. However, I have hard time believing that “regulars” have lost their salvation because of exposure to him. I just don’t know right now. I did not say you wrong about him, it was intended to question everyone else–which I think is a different assumption.
6. Bill Johnson: I think I’m closer to this church/movement than any of the others. I would like to know where/when he said that Christians cursed Bentely–I’m interested in that–it would mean some things to me–the source or a link would be cool.
I think me being specific in dialogue would help you understand who I am and why am here. I am weary of divulging to much info about myself or what I’m doing– but maybe that will change. I think you are important to a general quest for accountability and resolution and I respect your anger.
Someone very close to me (and very famous) once said to me that there is a fine line between apostleship and heresy. I learning more of this everyday.
Plotinus, I believe the bible to be the final authority in all things. We can have debates all day, but I will always go to the bible for my truth. So, anytime I look at a claim it will have to be based in scripture for me to give it an ok. This does not mean I think I have all the answers or any other big headed prideful ideas. I don’t. But in any discussion of theology or doctrine it will always be weighed by the word.
Just so you know, I only referred to Bentley because Lakeland was so “in your face”, broadcast on the internet, the tv, via godtv, etc. I hadn’t realized you didn’t know that much about him. His is an easy example of bad teachers and blind sheep who follow. If you google youtube on his teachings and check your bible you will see this with great clarity. Of course, now that I think about it, Bentley is not so much into teaching as he is experience. But, even that should have a biblical foundation. One thing to keep in mind that God is powerful and capable of doing anything, but He will never violate His character or His word. This is a good basis for separating the truth from the lie. In Bentley’s methods and many other “charismania” craziness, Gal 5:22-23 will pretty much put an end to any of their wild manifestations being of God. They cannot be, because they violate gifts of the spirit – gentleness, kindness, self control. In addition, revival is about repentance, not healing or visions, etc. Supernatural experiences are about God and bring people warning and to repentance -always. They are not fun little trips some anointed and very lucky people get to take. (See Daniel, Ezekiel, Revelation) Big difference.
Bill Johnson supports Bentley as does Rick Joyner. We can rest assured Bentley’s comeback will be a good one, unless of course God intercepts. This is why I warn people because it is not over. As far as the comment about the cursing, I believe he said that in the teaching I referred to that he put out shortly after Bentley’s fall. It’s a two parter on “grace” and you may be able to find in on the Bethel webpage. It may be available through youtube also and it probably came out around June or July 2008. The “curse” is a typical analogy amongst these latter rain, etc. guys. It’s also a very false teaching. I broke this down in one of my first articles that you can find under “Refuting IAHR Teaching, or Gen and Other Curses”. It is a quick way to take the focus from someone else and blame it on the group. It is also a nifty way to make loads of cash selling books and the like. Got a problem, someone cursed you. No one supporting Bentley has come forward to make a public announcement to call him out for what he truly is. They simply made excuses for him, gave him a place to live (probably illegally) while he divorced and remarried, and groomed him for the next move.
You said this – Christ is Lord. The act of the curtain ripping I feel was the most significant symbol (not the act) of the Cross. Among other things, It means I don’t need “anointed” people to give me “stuff.”
You are right in the second half, you don’t need anyone or anything to take you into worship or to teach you, etc. As the torn curtain signifies a way into the “Holy of Holies”. However, the most important aspect IS the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the is the only way we can have a relationship with God the Father. This is what repentance is about and without Jesus we are lost in our sins.
I don’t know what the end result of all this bad teaching, etc. is going to unfold. I would hope that none of us lose our salvation. I just can’t get past the knowledge that God is a jealous God and He will not allow His people who are called by His name to go after other gods. In these false teachings they are about other gods because they deny the true Lordship of Jesus Christ. They refute the pure teaching and core doctrines of the bible. They teach people to put their trust in others, claiming special anointings, revelations, mandates, – follow me, I have the answer, the power, the gift – not in God. Most of them have very bad teachings on the Holy Spirit. That is another area that is blatantly false and an easy find once you do a word study.
I found it very interesting the link between some of these manifestations and what is called a Kundalini spirit, or serpent power, or Kundalini awakening. When I first read about it I thought it was crazy. But the more I watched videos and saw such similarities I came to the conclusion there is something more there than craziness. Do a google search and you will see what I mean.
Christianity is distinctive in it’s ways and teachings, far from any other religion. There is no God like ours. When people bring in methods and teachings that are not in the word, they have brought in something else – destructive, heretical.
I should point out, regarding kundalini; there is a kundalini yoga. 😦
I’ve been digging around trying to find where Bill Johnson said that about the cursing of believers, but I cannot. I may have been wrong that it was Bill who said it. I don’t deliberately say things about others that are not true, so I want to get that out there. This comment was made and I heard it repeated by others a great deal. Johnson did make the comment that the opposition against Todd had been fierce (from the beginning) and likened it to those who had endured the same during Toronto Blessing. Another fiasco. In all of the reading I was doing at that time I probably confused who said what. If I have made a false statement about Johnson, I do apologize, it is not my intention at all.
I did find a link in which Patricia King did make the curse comment. http://endtimesdeception.com/?p=645.
I hadn’t realize how in-cahootz all of these people were until after the fact. Because they continue to uphold Todd, masking the truth, they cannot be trusted.
So the point here is not so much about Todd, but the lack of discernment, and a continued violation of scripture by those who support him.
I want to thank you for taking the time to offer the findings and truth you post on your blog. I appreciate your efforts. I especially relate to “what you came out of” as I, too, was part of a church that the Lord graciously began to reveal the falsehoods driving it. Initially, I was horrified…went through the stages of grief …then spent a season grieving that I was involved at all…Praise God He led me to a one new man congregation (where Jew and Gentile come together to worship Yeshua)…where I have received healing and restoration.
My question to you at this time is simply your opinion on soaking prayer. There are some people I know who “want to do this.” …and I believe the Lord has shown me His heart on this…and it appears to me that you are one who may have some biblical information on this.
It is my opinion that we needn’t look for other methods of prayer…that Jesus, Himself, gave us His directive for how to pray when the disciples asked Him. …and I see nothing in the Bible that refers to this type of prayer. Of course, the common reference by these people is Psalm 46:10 — however, my understanding of being still and knowing He is God…and “waiting” on the Lord is NOT conjuring up an atmosphere for “God to move.” In fact, everytime God has moved in my life…I literally has nothing to do with it — it was ALWAYS on His initiation. Please let me know your thoughts on this soaking prayer thing that is making its inroads into the congregations.
Thank you …and thank you for your blog. I first learned of you through Sola Dei Gloria (PJ Miller) whom I also read. Thanks again.
Glad to know you are out of the muck, too. God is good and faithful to His own.
I don’t know much about soaking prayer except to say the same, that it is not biblical prayer. I attempted soaking a few times but really didn’t get what it was about. I’ve recently heard some say that it is the same as contemplative, and involves emptying the mind as is taught in eastern religions. I think there is a difference in a stillness and even a meditation as is taught in the word and that taught in other religions. As you know we can’t borrow other practices and expect God to be there. He doesn’t work that way.
Thanks for your encouragement and support. I appreciate the comments so anytime you feel like it, you are welcome. 🙂
Blessings to you.
Thanks M’kayla–sounds like we are of like mind and in agreement. I appreciate you getting back to me…and will look forward to future posts …Blessings to you.
I really wasn’t planning on adding my own “two cents” any time so soon, but God has been stirring something up in my spirit for about the past week and I had one of those “Aha” moments earlier today. I’ve been contemplating this false spirit in the charismatic church and asking God some questions like, “How could I witness to a charismatic that this supposed ‘presence of God’ in the charismatic church is not the Holy Spirit?” and “What scripture would I use to back up what I’m saying?” I was thinking about the Old Testament and how God’s presence at that time was manifested in God’s temple. It was a physical place where God chose to reveal and manifest His presence. And when God’s people disobeyed him and rebelled against Him, He withdrew His presence from them, refusing to manifest Himself in the temple. And of course the Holy Spirit came upon the prophets and was with men like David. But all that changed with Jesus! I began to ask myself, well, what does the New Testament tell us about God’s presence? Where does God dwell on earth in the New Testament? IN US, AND ONLY IN US AS GOD’S PEOPLE INDIVIDUALLY AND COLLECTIVELY! Not in a building, not in a church service, not in a special conference or event where we can go to get “more of God”! God is not in the atmosphere, around us, above us, below us, beside us! His presence now indwells us. That is the only place that I could find scriptural support for the present manifestation of God upon the face of the earth at this time.
James 4:5 “Or do you suppose that the Scripture is speaking to no purpose that says, The Spirit Whom He has caused TO DWELL IN US yearns over us and He yearns for the Spirit to be welcome with a jealous love?”
I Cor 6:19 “Do you not know that YOUR BODY IS THE TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT who lives within you…”
Eph 3-17 “May CHRIST THROUGH YOUR FAITH DWELL IN YOUR HEARTS!…”
Eph 2:22 “In Him you yourselves are also being built up with the rest, to form a FIXED ABODE OF GOD IN THE SPIRIT.”
Jesus also said that where two or three are gathered in His name, there He would be in the midst of them (he was alluding, of course, to true believers). I thought of that charismatic song that goes, “Surely the presence of the Lord is in this place”. WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! Except for the Holy Spirit’s presence in the upper room before He infilled the believers gathered there, God’s presence and dwelling is now in our hearts! To sense His presence in the “atmosphere” of any building or conference cannot be the Holy Spirit! IT IS A COUNTERFEIT! In the Old Testament, God came to dwell in a place. The ministry of Jesus and the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost changed all that! All the “warfare” done by the charismatics cannot change the spiritual atmosphere. God now draws men to Himself by the draw of the Holy Spirit upon their hearts, not by a “presence” they feel around them or in a building. I think about the charismatics running from conferenece to conference and from service to service to “catch the wind of the spirit”, to “get more of God”. Could it be that so many of them have empty hearts that have not truly been filled by the Holy Spirit, and remain thirsty, and continually pursue a counterfeit spirit that can never quench their thirst, needing to “drink” over and over again. May God have mercy on them! May He send His light into their darkness!
Yay for you! This is some good work you have done! 🙂
In Charismania, the spirit they claim to the the Holy Spirit has been given its own personality and character. When in truth, the Holy Spirit came to reveal Jesus Christ. Jesus Himself said that He would have nothing of Himself, but to reveal Jesus. He would not be here on earth any longer but His spirit would be. One scripture that the Lord impressed on me just before I began to really see the truth, was Gal 5:22-23 – those two fruits – kindness and self control made me question the wild manifestations. If the Holy Spirit is kind why was He knocking us around so, and causing us to do the same to others; and if we had the fruit of the Holy Spirit in self control, why couldn’t we control our bodies and emotions? It did not add up to me and it was a pivotal moment.
Do you still have the information you sent out to the entire healing rooms teams?
I would love to have a copy if available?
Yes – in a sense. I broke it down into articles and started this blog. So the info is still here. Most of is it under the catagory Refuting IAHR and are the very first articles.
After I took the leadership position I started to really think about some of their methods and teachings such as word of faith, which means our words having the power to create, that we could actually speak things into existence, teaching about generational curses, Christian curses, word curses, soul ties, authority, and a whole mess of other weird stuff.
Sounds like Cleansing Stream stuff. I was involved for about 7 years as the regional worship leader for the Pacific Northwest.
Really? I think CS is something like what we did in Sozo for inner healing…??? But the quote is typical word of faith.
Yes especially … we could actually speak things into existence, teaching about generational curses, Christian curses, word curses, soul ties,…
One of the things that I kept noticing is how many of the same people would go to the CSM retreats and the same people were getting delivered time and time again. Soooo glad I am out of it!
Thank you Lord.
THANK YOU SO MUCH for posting this blog!! Ever since I have found this I have not been able to stop reading. I am so interested in this subject right now. Many of my friends and even family members seem to be getting into this whole Charismatic movement and to be honest, it is really freaking me out! I want to find answers and the truth!
I am actually going to write a paper in my college writing class about Charismania and I wanted to ask you some questions if that is ok… Let me know by emailing me back! I know you are probably so busy, but if you are able to I would greatly appreciate it! Thanks so much!
Hi M’kayla! Glad I found your blog. Your testimony is similar to mine in that I started out Southern Baptist – became charismatic back in mid 70’s when there was a realness and honesty to it. Kept waiting for that realness to come back but it never did.
The Todd Bentley fiasco did it for me. Started reading up on his wrong doctrine and found out much of “river” charismatics were equally deceived. Now I’m back in a Baptist church and reading my bible and studying myself instead of listening to so many teachers.
Anyway, glad to see you again and others from ETPW 🙂
I believe we originally met some years ago on Tribulation Force Forum. It is good to hear from you – and your comment that the charismatic in the mid 70’s was real. I would like to hear more about that because it is an area I struggle with in wondering if that “Jesus Movement” was really biblical or just another puff in the charismatic craziness.
The church I grew up in was very Baptist, went Charismatic and split. After that crazy teachings and nutty things began to come in and it was when I withdrew emotionally, angry at them, angry at God – I was 16 or so at the time. Being so young it is hard for me to look back now all these years later to determine what was and what was not of God.
I am glad to hear the fall of Bentley had a postive effect on someone else! 🙂 Praise God that He is willing to be so longsuffering and merciful toward us!
As I said, I grew up Baptist but our church was definitely influenced by the charismatic move of the 1970’s. People were hungry for a move of God and the mere mention of a bible study or prayer meeting would have 30+ people descending on your house.
The idea that you could raise your hands in worship or sing a song directly to God (as in “I praise you Lord”) was new and exciting. Laying on of hands was a way to express our Christian love for each other while really expecting an answer to prayer.
Sometime in the 1980’s – I noticed a legalism creeping in – partly the WOF movement in blaming people for not enough faith if they didn’t receive their healing – part of it was the sophistication of praise and worship – the leaders were learning how to manipulate the atmosphere instead of inviting the presence of the Lord.
From the 1990’s onward – there was no more “real” – only pale imitations of what once was. Idolatry in the form of super-preacher worship and then of course the NAR movement and the far out New Age creepiness. I haven’t felt or sensed a real move of God since the 1970’s.
Now, I haven’t totally given up on the charismatic. I still believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit and having a personal prayer language. I believe all 9 manifestation gifts are for today. What I have dismissed as unbiblical are: gold dust, drunkenness, angel feathers, impartations, visions 3-5 times a day, extra-bodily transports to heaven’s “wine cellar” etc.
I cannot deny that there was a real move of God during the 1970’s – I was there and it was biblical and beautiful. I just haven’t seen it since.
Thanks Java! I appreciate your insight!
Javanut, I am new here; have been reading through all these comments. Yours really touched my spirit, as your experience mirrors my own. I too grew up Baptist, then was filled with the Holy Spirit as seen in the book of Acts in the mid-’70s when I had never even heard of it, let alone knew what it was. YES, there was a realness, an honesty, the truth, BECAUSE it was founded in the Word of God, not in any man’s teachings. THANK YOU so much for your testimony here.
Have you heard of Andrew Strom? He was personally involved in the IHOP movement for years, and has now written three books (at least) exposing what he himself has learned. I haven’t read his books yet, though I was on his e-mail list for a while, but everything I’ve read thus far has seemed to be true to God’s Word. He has written a book on the “Kundalini” spirit that mkayla has mentioned here. I believe his first book was titled ‘True Revival, False Revival’, and this is the book I want to read first. His books are available at Amazon, if you are interested.
God bless you! 🙂
Your article is a lot like my life! I too had dreams that I even sent it to the “seers” for interpretation that described deception in my spiritual life. Wow! My problem is that my good friend is still involved deeply, even believing that she is going to have a healing ministry from all the prophecies she’s received. I’m really confused about some things because it seems like God is really moving in her life and her visions come true about blessings she is receiving from God, but God is still drawing her and allowing her to be in the prophetic movement big time. I don’t feel like I can tell her how I feel because she won’t believe me and just say to me that I’m living in fear. Why is God showing me the truth about this movement but not her??? Any advice M’kayla?
It is hard for me to give advice to people because I don’t think that it’s my place. Just because things are happening does not mean they are by God’s will. If your friend is operating outside the teaching of scripture, you can be assured it is not God’s doing. These types of visions and prophetic words are quite powerful, but they are the work of the enemy, not of God. He will allow us to wander away from Him if it is our mind to do so, as this is part of the free will He has given us.
I will tell you to pray, and study these areas of the prophetic and healing rooms and their doctrines so that you can prove biblically where the teachings are off. There is lots of information here that you can use to help guide you and more available from others on my blogroll. The Lord may be showing you so that you can show her the truth. Or it could be that you have a mind to see the difference and she has one to be lead astray, like I was. Keep in mind that you it is not your responsibility to prove the truth, that is the work that is left to the Lord through the power of the Holy Spirit. You speak and He reveals. If I can be of help to answer questions related to these teachings please don’t hesitate to ask.
Could God still be working in her life AND allowing her to be in this movement? She had visions and heard from God (in her heart) about her child she adopted and had dreams even of the name etc… All sorts of blessings happen to her and she heals people of various things. My question is why would Satan bring about a miraculous adoption etc…?
Erin, when we try to sort these things out it can become confusing because often we see good mixed in with false teaching/ers. I am reminded of this scripture –
James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, of with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.
John 3:27 John (the Baptist) answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven”.
As to satan doing any good –
John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
And in Hebrews we are told that God speaks to us through His Word, Jesus His Son –
Hebrews 1:1 God, who in various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the father by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son,
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God and the Word was God.
And while there are references to dreams and visions and stories of people receiving word from God through them, the bible is the final authority on all things. It is a dangerous practice to be guided by dreams and visions because so many other factors play into them – our thoughts, plans, desires and even the influence of the enemy.
The focus is on the teaching, not necessarily the events in their lives. God gives good things to all, He loves everyone – John 3:16; and Luke 6:35 tells us the Most High is kind to the unthankful and evil.
We are disciples of the Lord because we do what He has told us to do and our lives should reflect the teachings of Jesus. Supernatural experiences, dreams and visions is not proof that God is working in a person’s life, simply because any one can have them. I’m not saying that God did not want her to adopt, I wouldn’t go there – and we are told to visit orphans in their time of need, and to take on the care of a child is a wonderful thing to do.
Keep in mind we must separate the good works and the wow factor of the supernatural from the teaching. After everything is said and done it is the doctrinal truth found in scripture that will stand.
46 “But why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord’, and not do the things which I say? 47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like:
48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock.
49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.
When I confronted this friend about Todd Bentley and that he could be manifesting false spirits she said that she couldn’t watch the You Tube videos on it because it hurts her faith to do that. I never understood that. To me she was saying that she would rather live in denial than know the truth and find out that it wasn’t God. During the Lakeland “Revival”, I watched it non-stop on my laptop in the kitchen. I went over to the fridge to get something and when I came back a key was missing off the laptop. It was the letter “G”. I called my daughter over and she found it behind my computer sitting next to my bible that was there too. It took a while, but I realized it could be one more sign (besides some dreams I had) from God that He wanted me in His Word or that He was not in the revival. BUT, I seek only the truth so I even ask God if this was His doing or a false sign/wonder. I don’t want to be like the others who are mislead and will not even THINK that something could be from Satan that seemed so nice or spiritual. What do you think?
Erin, I would think the true “sign” is found when we compare the teachings of Bentley with the scriptures and realize the two do not agree.
I tried to look at my past in charismania, and look at my friends’ lives who are still deep in the prophetic/charismaniac movement and weigh and sort what was and wasn’t God, and then try to draw a linear relationship with whether or not the teaching/teacher they listen to is true or not.
But it doesn’t seem to work that way.
Let’s say your friend goes to the worst kind of crazy doctrine Sunday morning service. She is going to come out of there with some very poor, if not false, understanding of scripture and even the nature of God. Ok, but on Monday she honestly prays and reads her Bible and God speaks truth to her heart. That’s where we see confusing mixture.
That’s why a LOVE of the truth is so important. A love of the truth will drive us to ask the hard questions. A love of the truth will make us feel we are wasting our time seeking anything else. A love of the truth will cause us to only want to give our ear, time and money to the teaching of truth.
I have met people in charismania who have a totally warped idea of God, and I have to wonder if they are even saved. But I think many of us who have come out of this stuff have friends who believe in the flakiest of doctrines, yet if we sit across the table from them and have a real discussion, we can see they have made a true declaration of faith in the biblical Jesus.
At this point I handle things on a teaching by teaching basis. We can judge words and whether or not they line up with scripture. So that is how I am handling things, as they come up and as conversations allow. I just now feel that I have some ability to refute some of these things with a scriptural basis other than a kind of vague ‘I don’t believe that stuff anymore’ response.
Things like dreams, etc., God does speak to people through dreams in the Bible so I don’t discount that possibility. It’s the desire of my heart that tattles on me. If my desire is to love the truth and be submitted to the will of God and obedient, etc, then whether I have a dream or not isn’t what drives me, and if I DO have a dream, I will be in the right state of mind to discern its source.
If I am driven by having ‘awesome’ encounters, the latest ‘word’, something to puff me up and confirm my ‘prophetic gift’ then I will be lead around like a bull with a ring in its nose.
Thank you ruthsongs!!
Yes, thank you Ruthsongs. I always read your comments…You should write your own blog.
I have been haunted by this warning by Paul in 2 Corinthians 11,
“But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.
Are we led to Jesus by the teaching, or are we exalting a man and his ministry and manifestations so much that we cannot bear to see unflattering portrayals of them without the kneejerk “touch not God’s anointed”, and the corresponding refusal to be a Berean. There are clear warnings in Scripture. We are fools if we do not heed them.
“…your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ”
Well there it is right there. Our thoughts can be led astray, and of course our thoughts are influenced by what we listen to.
Thanks, Karen. I did so much blabbing back when I thought I was oh-so-prophetic, I really hesitate to say much these days. I fear if I thought I HAD to get a blog post out, I’d fall into the same trap.
I got saved in’ 78 on Valentines Day. What a love gift! But I immediately entered into the teachings of the Health and Wealth Gospel. After about 8 years of endoctrination and feeding on Kenyan, Hagin, Copeland, Capps, Hayes, Hickey, the Hunters, Savelle, Avanzene, Price and on and on to you know who -that would be Joyce of course- I had a good friend who had been just as steeped in the teaching who had moved away and who had begun to call me, dropping bombs in my spirit about it all being a lot of error. I would argue with her at first, but eventually the truth of it all began to chip away at what I had been taught. Part of the chipping came while I was reading one of Watchman Nee’s books, “The Latent Power of the Soul. I remember reading “The Balanced Christian Life”, “The Spiritual Man”, “Sit, Walk, Stand”, “The Release of The Spirit”, “Christ:The Sum of All Things”, and” Spiritual Authority.” His books came highly recommended in Charismatic circles, but when I read “The Latent Power of The Soul” it did something to me. It startled me when Nee began to elaborate on the type of deceptive signs and wonders that would enter the Church in the last days. I, for one know I am saved; but unlike my Christian friends at the time, I always felt that I could be deceived if I was not careful. Like me they did not believe in “once saved, always saved,” but when I shared the thought that the deception coming would be so intense that if possible even we could be deceived with another of my best Christian friends at the time, she assured me I had nothing to worry about, that the Lord would never let me be so deceived. How could she be so sure? And she was positive! Even though I could not at the time explain it, something seemed suddenly very wrong. Shocked that she would think that way, I began to pull away from everyone and reevaluate what I was learning in the faith and wealth gospel. I remember deciding not to call any of my friends and just read and seek God about it all.
As I did, I was blown away that in James we are taught that it is the poor (and the context is not talking about “poor in spirit” but is obviously talking about poor with little finances) who are rich in faith. Certainly not the message of the Copelands! I also remember we were taught not to say “if it be they will” because that showed doubt and doubt and unbelief would hinder your prayers. We were taught to learn through the Word what the Will of God was and not pray “if it be thy will.” Then I read in James 4, thank God, “13Now listen, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money.” 14Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. 15Instead, you ought to say, “If it is the Lord’s will, we will live and do this or that.” 16As it is, you boast and brag. All such boasting is evil. 17Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins.”
Oh, my. What we were being taught was boasting and evil. I was flabberghasted. How in the world could we possibly know the Lord’s will 100% of the time. How arrogant! Then I remember being taught that we really did not want to be like Job, because Job had a lot of fear and doubt and because of that, what he feared came upon Him. We were led away from considering Job and his sufferings. It was a place we did not want to go. We were to be stronger and more steadfast in our faith than he was and so it was not a book we loved or studied. Finally, I got real sick. I had been a Flight Attendant for 24 years when after years of lifting and such, over a period of a year, my back began to hurt to the point that finally I just had to give in and go out on LTD. With extra time on my hands, I flew to have Ernest Anley pray for me, as well as other “men of faith.” Believeing we were to “call those things that be not as though they were”, I also made a tape of healing scriptures and left a blank spot after each scripture so that’ as I listened to it I could “say it out loud” before the next scripture, in order to get them down in my spirit and to build myself up in my faith that I was healed etc. Daily, I would play the tape and confess the healing scriptures. I did everything I had been taught to do and more, but no dice! I could not get the Lord to heal me. Finally, while I was in bed for a month at the orders of my neursurgeon, I broke down, desperate for answers and in lots of pain, and opened my Bible to Job. As I read it, tears flowed and I could not believe how wonderful it was. God’s wisdom far exceeded mine and always would. After all where was I when He decided where He would store the hail? Wow, He stores the hail somewhere. And where was I when He told the waves “this far and no more!” Who in the world did I think I was to be able to know His will and never have a doubt about it. But my freedom came when I heard Job say, “though you slay me I will serve you.” I had so much pain, I did not know how I could endure it for long, even though I knew there were others who lived with even more pain than I. But when I read that, I began to cry and asked the Lord to forgive me and told Him that “even though it felt like I was dying, it did not matter when or how or even if I never got healed and that Satan would not win, that I I would serve The lord all the days of my life, no matter what happened! Then and only then could I relax and as I did over the next months, I got better and better. Today, I am not totally healed, but that does not matter. I am able to function and I am productive and I minister to others and I am happy and I even thank Him today for my healing me. And on top of that, I believe a good part of getting better came when I did what God told Job to do. He told him to pray for his friends (many of his accusers) and when he did the tables changed for Job and the Lord says He “turned the captivity of Job when he prayed for his friends.” Then (secondarily) He says He then gave Job twice as much as he had before. What a pity that people are led away from this book for fear it will undermine their faith.
But back to the reason for my writing you. Back to that tiny little book, “The Latent Power of the Soul.” Interesting that someone who grew up in China and who most likely had seen many,many false miracles that originated in the soul of man (I think of the religions of India where so much soul power is used), would see ahead to the last days that we live in and be able to articulate the false signs and wonders that are in the Church right now while so many Christians are clueless that they are false. I just wonder how many Charasmatics have read this book and have just skipped over the pages or torn them out so to speak, as they accuse the Baptist of doing when it comes to the scriptures on tongues. He describes the laughing revival and how false it is. He describes many things that will blow to smitherins the Modern day Faith Movement. But why can they not see it? I can only conclude that the teaching causes such arrogance that they truely think they cannot be deceived and so are just that=very deceived. And do not, do not, do not want to hear otherwise!
I do want to clarify that I do not agree with everything that Watchman Nee teaches in his books. My point is mainly that many Charismatic like his teachings and yet they do not hear what he said years ago about the end times concerning things like laughing uncontrolably on queue and singing lines of songs over and over and over until you are in an altered state, and preachers repeating sermons in a heightened emotional state with the assurance it will bring about certain reactions, etc. My point is that some of what he teaches is accurate concerning the types of false signs and wonders of in the Church today, yet those that like His teachings ignore what he has to say about them in his book. There is enough truth in the “The Latent Power of the Soul” concerning signs and wonders in the last days that it should alarm the reader to the point that they would pray that the Lord keep them from falling for them. However, I do not believe many of his readers even think they could be the one’s to be deceived.
One day, the Lord will tell us exactly how all the false signs and wonders are performed and how to more accurately detect them. Until then, he has given us enough information to discern them. Surely, it is not exactly as Watchman Nee has said. However, it is certain that the power that God talks about is an abomination and that we need to shun this power that has to do with the mind, the soul, our emotions and demon spirits. I do not see a totally valid basis for Nee’s saying Adam had tremendous Soul power before the fall, but it does seem to be evident that there is some kind of power that is easily triggered through our minds with the help of demon spirits and that the Church will fall for it and operate in a lot of it in the end times.
Any way you look at it, many today are more interested in feeling something than trusting that God is with us. As I write, I remember as a child I did believe what I was taught in Catechism about the Holy Spirit. As a little girl we were expected to memorize and quote big words like the The Holy Spirit is “omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.” Omnipresent means He is present with me. Once we are saved, and we know He now lives in us, why is that so hard for us to understand. Why do we have to feel something to believe that He is with us? Why can’t we believe we can be healed without lying down on the floor with our pillows, while the lights are out and beautiful music is playing, while a facilitator is hovering over us or stroking us to comfort us that Jesus is here and Jesus wants to speak to us and Jesus wants to heal us? Why do we need to break out in laughter to be assured that we really have Joy. I am sort of offended at that premise. If the joy of the Lord is my strength, it is sad to think that I would have to break out in laughter to have that joy. It is sad that I have to go to those lengths to be strengthened. It is a shame that I cannot have it quietly, individually, moment by moment , as I meditate on His Word or I think about the wonderful things He has done for me and others. Laughter is a good medicine! But it is not the only way for me to have joy! And to be honest, I think that joy goes much deeper than laughter. Deep calls unto deep! My strength is anchored in something much deeper than laughter. My joy is anchored in something much deeper than laughter. Now that I am saved, the deepest place in me cries out to the deepest place in God for what I lack,for what I need, for what I want to understand and when they touch, “my deep and His deep,” I experience in my spirit the Giver of Life, the Healer, the Comforter, the Lover of My Soul. And alone in those moments I am strengthened and I receive the answers or revelations that “He decides” to give, “as He will”. We need facilitators to bring me to this place? I believe if we truly love God and are seeking Him we will come to this on our own by His Spirit. Do we really need facilitators to bring us to this place or are they operating in a different spirit to make it happen. I believe whenever the Holy Spirit does something, it is wrong for us to try to duplicate it. It no longer is “as He wills”, but rather we have introduced something else into the equation to reproduce the experience and it becomes mixed. If it is mixed it is no longer purely the Holy Spirit’s doing but rather it is now the flesh, the soul, a work of man rather than God. A false sign. A false method. And if we continue to move in that method we get farther and farther away from the Spirit of God, while the devil cloaks the method in deception and feelings and emotions and the ignorant believe it is truly the Holy Spirit while the Facilitators revel in the results. And the truth is the results are not what the Lord willed, but rather a result of a fleshly method and manipulation. Gee, I know the Political Liberal’s new name for themselves is Progressives and apparently they cringe at the older folks who stand in the way of their new progressive thought. I suspect these facilitators, like the soaking and comtempletive ones, must be the new Christian Progressives who cringe at people like me who won’t buy into their new thought. I believe in signs and wonders, but as the Lord wills! The truth is they are false teachers tickling the ears of many who HEAP them to themselves!
My sister is a New Ager. She is an Ordained Minister in the New Age. She started out going up to the Edgar Casey Foundation For over 30 years ago and that led to getting involved with EST Tralning, Teaching a “Course In Miracles,”, walking on coals, reading Tara Cards, charting Astrology Charts for engaged couples and on and on it goes. I have known in my heart that the New Age would be at the heart of the Great Falling Away. I talked to my sister tonight. And just like those in the Faith Movement and all that it has evolved into today, she is as hard a case to crack. It is apparent to me that they all could fall for the same false signs and wonders in the end. Who would have thought. We cannot say we have not been warned. Karen
Karen this is quite a story and it brought tears to my eyes more than once. How great the Father’s love for us! I would like to use this as an article because I believe it will help others. I won’t be able to get to that until after Friday because Right now I only have access an iPad and it would be too tricky to try and attempt!
M’kayla, I would be blessed for you to do that. I am so greatful to find this site. As you and others know, I feel pretty alone out here. Every time I step out and send emails to friends about any of this, most of them stop communicating with me. I sent out the articles and Youtube videos about Rick warren at the folllowing sites and those I sent it to no longer email me.
In this video you will meet Dr Oz who is invited to Saddleback to teach on meditation also. Here you can see his connection to New Age Guru Deepak Chopra.
Deepak Chopra, M.D. and David Simon, M.D. opened the Chopra Center for Wellbeing in 1996 to help people experience physical healing, emotional freedom, and higher states of consciousness. Located in Carlsbad, California, their claim to fame is that they “offer a wide variety of programs, retreats, and teacher training programs that integrate the healing arts of the East with the best in modern Western medicine.”
Unfortunately, the deception in the end times even spills over into all the denominations that embrace Rick Warren.AND THAT IS PRETTY MUCH ACROSS THE BOARD. He is about to lead thousands of undiscerning Christians into abominable eastern meditation and healing practices and who knows the effect it will have in their lives. I truely believe when an individual dabbles in yoga and eastern meditation and reiki healing, like the speakers that Rick Warren has invited to speak in his Church do (they actually practice and teach these things),that you become influenced by the eastern mystic demons and spirits and you begin to believe what they represent, mainly that there are many paths to God. And as Christians are exposed to these abominable practices, they will possibly fall away from the faith. You cannot be a Christian and believe there is any other path to God than thru the shed blood of Jesus. Any person that believes there are other paths is denying the work of the Holy Spirit on the Cross. They reject the heart of Christianity that Only the shed blood of Jesus can save you and if you say there is other ways, you deny, negate, argue with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The bible says “how can two walk together unless they agree?” If you cannot agree that only Jesus’blood saves, you are not walking with God.
So really and truely, we have entered into a time when this desception is touching all Christianity and it is questionable how long those of us who discern these things can even stay in a Church.
Somehow, I believe that because of the economy and and other factors, many, many Christians who are really seeking the truth will meet in homes. After all the message is not full of New Revelation as the Charasmatics profess nor is it tolerant of Eastern Mysticism as the just plain ignorant suggest. It is the simple Word of God and there are tons of Christians who are mature enough to teach it in their homes. I believe one of the disservices that the Church has done is to keep Christians sitting on the bench, when they have been well fed and have actually become fat from sitting. Not wanting to lose the tithes, many Ministries have failed to release laborers into the harvest field who are ready and capeable. But I believe the time is coming soon when many will step out on their own, hearing the voice of God and obeying it. The visible church is not the true church. The true church is made up of individuals in and out of the church who truely are saved and love Jesus. The true church is the Bride and she is making herself ready. Some would shout,”Get ready, Get ready, Get ready for your blessings.” But the true man or woman of God will shout, “Get ready, Get ready, Get ready, your King is coming!” Please forgive me if this is too long and too heavy. I will control myself from now on! God bless, Karen
When Rick Warren began to speak things tha twere not truly biblical, who spoke up to either correct him or to stop him? this is the very same scenario that has been played out over and again since the beginning. These are crystal clear examples of what happens when false teaching is allowed in the church and the reason why the bible so often warned against it’s allowance.
We see bad teaching evolve into the demonic. How else can the practice of other religions be classified? These practices run parallel so to speak with charismania practices, the prophetic-hearing the voice. it is seen in the Emergent, the practice of contemplative meditation and the charismatic “soaking” prayer. It is the same spirit power as found in reiki, kundalini chi as we see in these healing rooms and the healing movement. All these practices claim the power of God, yet the power, the practices are not of Him.
Many leave churches and vow never to return again Sadly, I too believe this will not change and we may very well be forced out eventually. So many things are happening in the world right now and we cannot say with any certainty how much freedom we will have in days to come. Here in America we have a president who likes to overthrow the voice of the people with the stroke of his pen. To me that looks like the beginning of dictatorship!!!
I totally agree. I just wish more people wanted to hear it. I just really do not understand that part. I mean Christians who are mature(perhaps they really aren’t)not wanting to hear these things. Why they do not want to take heed least they fall is beyond me. People really thrive on something that is “Big” and highly emotional! It blows my mind when I see some of these preachers ranting a raving their messages with sweat soaking through their suit jackets, and the fine jewlery and expensive clothes and airplanes and all. And they are convinced this is how Jesus would act and live. And the people love it. I remember one of the first signs and wonders I questioned was inthe 80’s when a fMinister came from California to my Church in Va. Beach. After he gave his message, while we were all standing, from the alter, he “blew towards the people in the first row and they all fell back in their seats.” Then he did it again in another section! For What?? All I could figure was for Show. And my Pastor who I know had never seen anything like it, never said a word to the congregation. Soooooo, most of them just bought into it I am sure!Just as you said. Karen
“When Rick Warren began to speak things tha twere not truly biblical, who spoke up to either correct him or to stop him?”
Hi, mkayla. I am new here; just discovered your blog this evening. I have been a Christian since the mid-1970s (Javanut’s experience amazingly mirrors my own), and I’ve seen a LOT of stuff come and go in the Body of Christ.
I cannot assume that no one every spoke up to Rick Warren, that no one ever sought to correct him or gently guide him back to Biblical reality. I am one who did lovingly appeal to a pastor who had given heed to seducing spirits, and was roundly rejected. I don’t doubt that this has also happened to someone who has known Rick Warren.
Have you heard of Andrew Strom? I ask this because so much of what you have said here mirrors things he has said. I was on his e-mail list for some time. He was part of the IHOP movement for years; as I understand it, he and Todd Bentley were contemporaries, about the same age, “preacher boys” there together. I believe Strom has experienced what you experienced, that the Lord has revealed the truth about false revival to him. (His first book was titled True Revival, False Revival.) He has also written a book about the Kundalini (sp?) spirit you mentioned. I have not yet read his books, but I plan to do so ASAP.
You have rightly referred to the scriptural warnings of “another Jesus”, “another spirit”, etc. I truly believe that your comments about what Strom calls ‘false revival’ in fact reveal what we could term “another revival” which is false, which is not of God.
God bless you for your efforts here! While I also have concerns about churches who freeze out the Holy Spirit, who see no need for His ministry today (in violation of Christ Jesus’ teachings in the Gospels), I agree with your concerns as well. God bless you, dear sister in Christ. 🙂
Hi Claire, and welcome to my blog. Thanks for your comments. I have heard of Andrew Strom, as I have many other no-name people like me who have been through the nut house and come out. It only happens by the leading of the Holy Spirit who brings us into truth, leads and councils those who are His. I love the scripture that refers to the washing of the word because it seems that it does exactly that.
Many, many godly men have confronted Rick Warren with his false teaching. When asked directly about what he believes – he answers correctly yet afterwards writes and talks just the opposite – a chameleon. Witness the latest interview between John Piper and Rick Warren – it is Piper’s “rehabilitation effort” of Warren’s theology or lack thereof.
In contrast – no one has every had to do a propaganda interview to rehabilitate John MacArthur’s image on theology. Selah.
And those who do warn are made fun of, made out to look as tho something is wrong with them, rather than the other way around. Reminds me of playground bullying. It is effective because the focus is taken off the bad guy and placed on the one standing up for what is right. I recently watched a portion of a video with Greg Laurie (Harvest, Calvary Chapel) and Mark Driscoll (Mars Hill) doing this very thing and claiming that God did not raise up bloggers to point out false teachers. HA.
The links you’ve given here are good ones. I am familiar with Lighthouse Trails. Have you heard of Andy and Berit Kjos? They have a great website — http://www.crossroad.to — where they cover MANY topics of concern today in depth, including Rick Warren. Their website has been a tremendous blessing to me.
M’Kayla and ruthsongs, my friend who I told you about just won a big contest (she is always blessed) and is also on her way to a big prophetic conference. I just don’t get it. It seems like the more she is blessed, the more she believes that she is right about the WOF and the prophetic movement. I pray that God opens her eyes to the truth. As long as she is being blessed, it seems like it just solidifies her theology.
Erin, how is it a blessing when she will be subjected to demonic teaching?
Erin, it is not a matter of ‘blessings’ determining truth. It is a matter of truth determining truth. (I think you are now seeing this, just trying to point you to it as you sort this out.) The teachings can be held up to scripture and judged as in accordance with scripture or not.
The rain falls on the just and the unjust. Even David remarked how evil men seemed to prosper while the righteous suffered. I think your friend’s definition of ‘blessing’ is not the biblical definition.
Stay on the teachings and the scripture. Talk to her about what the bible says compared to the teachings. The ‘stuff’ that happens is not the litmus test. What will we do if we are not blessed as the world sees blessing? What will we trust then? What would the imprisoned, tortured and killed apostles have done if ‘blessing’ was their litmus test for the truth? It is a concept the charismatic church is prone to forget.
I know she would agree with you, ruthsongs, but she just feels that God is choosing to bless her, mostly because they tithe a large amount. Maybe He is. She and I spoke once about how I feel kind of guilty if I take a present or win a prize and she said flat out, “I don’t!” She feels that God is blessing her and she is accepting. It seems a little prideful but maybe I shouldn’t feel guilty either. I’m always thinking what friend can I give this gift to that I just received.
Erin, why not show her in the Word in James 2:1-5 where it talks about the financially poor man in filthy clothes who you tell to “stand over there” while you tell the man in fine clothes to “sit here in a good place” and it then goes on to say ” in verse 5,”Listen my beloved brethren: has God not chosen the poor of this world to be RICH IN FAITH and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him.” How is it then that monetary or material blessings are evidence of someone’s great faith?” Basically, those in the WOF believe this. They believe a sign of someone’s faith is their material blessings. But in this scripture we see that material blessings are not a sign of your faith.
Also in the Parable of the Sower, Jesus is quite clear that the Seed is the Word of God. It is not money or your tithe. That interpretation began with Oral Roberts when he began to have financial difficulties in his ministry. “Perhaps there is no greater perversion within the modern Charismatic movement than the perversions surrounding money and its doctrine of seed faith and the hundred fold return.” This quote came from an article called “The Word of Faith Movement and the Cultic Renewal of Indulgences” By J. Danny Hone at http://christianissues.com/roots.html
How can scripture change it’s meaning? It doesn’t. Man changes its meaning to suit himself. This is what the Jews did by adding and taking away from the scriptures. And when they did, they missed recognizing Jesus as the Messiah. And this is what Oral Roberts did when he ran into financial problems. it is Today, many have been sucked into the this false teaching.
Oh, they love their “seed” gifts!
Erin, there is no such thing as “tithing a large amount”. The word “tithe” means “tenth”, and the Lord established the the tithe as a tenth of one’s income in OT days. The Bible speaks of the “deceitfulness of riches”, also people supposing that great gain equates to Godliness. Does that sound familiar? The Bible also says “the love of money is the root of all evil”, and yet the “prosperity message”, which actually takes the Scripture about true prosperity out of context, has encouraged the love of money, which has caused great damage in many churches. I agree with you that this also fosters pride and arrogance, which we know are not of God and in fact hinder the work of His Holy Spirit in our lives.
God bless you, dear sister. As you seek Him, He will teach you and show you all things you need to know. Just be sure that everything you receive and believe is consistent with His Word. His Word is Truth (I John 17).
The tenth didn’t include money. It was more along the lines of grains and spices – food for the storehouses. It was WOF-prosperity that brought in the need to tithe cash, thus becoming rich themselves.
In the New Testament, people gave an unspecified amount to help meet the needs of others. Again, there is no cash amount instituted by God or through the apostles.
mkayla, I did not mention money when I mentioned the OT tithe. I said that the Lord instructed the Israelities to give a tenth of their income — I could have used the word “increase”, which basically means the same thing.
I cannot agree that it was WOF-prosperity teaching which brought in the need to tithe or give cash, though. For years (centuries, I’m sure), Christians have used cash instead of goods in trading, as cash came to represent those goods. Long before the WOF-prosperity teaching became prominent in the Body of Christ, this was so. Also — many believers did not become rich by obeying the proclamations of WOF preachers/teachers. A goodly number did not see any increase in income, and/or actually became poorer as a result.
ITA with you that NT believers gave an unspecified amount to help meet the needs of other believers. We see this throughout the NT. In Paul’s letter to the Philippians, he commended the believers at Philippi and told them that God would meet all their need according to His riches in Glory because they had cared for other believers to the point that they had been willing to give of their own goods to help them. What we see in the NT is believers giving out of love for God and other believers. One clear example of greed is the unfortunate situation of Ananias and Sapphira as related in the book of Acts. The Lord judged them harshly. That in itself should be a warning to other believers who are tempted to become greedy themselves and focus on “giving to get” — something which is completely alien to the Spirit-filled and Spirit-led life.
Yes, but I was simply clarifying income-money-tithe so that there would not be confusion to some.
Thank you Karen and Javanut. Something that I think is really important in all of this is the way the WOF preachers make you feel if you don’t tithe what they want. I know you’re not supposed to feel condemnation as a Christian, but when I was trying to be like my WOF friend, that’s all I felt. I felt like she was perfect and doing everything God wanted but I was less than and not in God’s will. I couldn’t tithe the amount she did so I wasn’t allowed to be an official member of our church (I have since left that church) even though my volunteer hours exceeded hers. I tried to make up for the fact that I couldn’t tithe too much by saving the church money by volunteering for many things. I even wondered if it would be better if I didn’t volunteer so I could get a part time job to be able to tithe. Isn’t that crazy? But that’s where my head was. Basically, I just felt like I was a foster child in a family and the official members of the church were the real children. I guess no one MADE me feel that way, that’s just what I felt like inside. I feel soooo much better believing that God just loves a cheerful giver and to give from your heart. The church I go to now allows everyone to be members and we can give whatever we feel we can.
Karen, I have seen quite a bit of what I call magic in prophetic conferences, but I haven’t seen anyone blow on people and have them go down. I saw Benny Hinn do that on a video though. They are trying to mimic what Jesus did to the disciples after He was resurrected. It really gives me the creeps to think of that beautiful act being counterfeited. I had a dream where I was at a conference and I told a woman that it was all magic. That’s really what it is, I have no doubt now and even when I was trying to believe all of it, I felt a little scared in my spirit.
I know what you mean, Erin. In Word of Faith/charismania there is a subtle shifting to look at external things as confirmation of “being on the right track.” It’s kind of ironic since WOF makes such a big deal about not looking at circumstances, but quoting scriptures to bring about the desired result- but then they quickly imply that if you are financially blessed it is proof of having faith/being somehow more pleasing to God than the rest of the poor blokes.
I know that it can be frustrating to have dear friends still in the movement you now see as having a lot of wrong teaching. Most of us here have lost friends over this. Honestly, I can’t say God isn’t blessing her. I guess my point is to stick to talking about the teachings compared to the scriptures when talking with your friend, because that is the part that doesn’t change.
The bottom line is the Lord alone can reveal truth to any of us. We can only be faithful to speak the truth in love when He nudges us to do so, and to do so prayerfully.
And I would add from my own experience that I have had to be very careful to speak with simple humility and not try to force the situation and make people feel like they are being attacked.
Their teachings pertaining to wealth and healing lies in thier ability to manipulate. They have many people sending them money and have become rich because of it. It has nothing to do with faith or blessing of God, it is strictly manipulation of God’s people, the lost, desperate and hurting.
God gives good things to all, this is scriptural, but I do not believe He is blessing WOF-ers. It’s simple economics. God allows these liars to prosper just the same as dishonest business people do. HE has given all of us the abilty to create wealth, through our work. The only difference is they use the name of God to do gain wealth. It is like He has become their product, not their savior. It’s very evil and twisted and we can see how many can become confused in seeing the difference. After all, how many of these well known TV preachers stand up at their podiums claiming their wealth to be from God and preaching the gospel. Yet, as it’s been pointed out, Jesus had nothing of the world, and neither did his followers. They truly lived on faith. Those who live in compounds with fancy cars and jets have their faith invested in bank accounts.
And I agree with Ruthsongs, we should always approach our friends with an attitude of humility and prayerfulness. None of us are far from falling and even tho we are saved, are still sinners in need of the Lord and His leading.
Very good statement M’Kayla. I remember that both the WOF and Prophetic movement use a lot of Old Testament scripture that talks of God blessing Israel. They quote and recite the blessings and make it apply to their lives by saying that God’s word does not come back void. I don’t remember a lot of New Testament scripture accept about sowing the seed etc… They way they view blessings is very different than Jesus or Paul did.
Its a mixture: Roscicrusian Mystism and I AM movement (Theosophy). Its not Chrisitanity, but uses mostly (manufactured or demonic) signs and wonders (and testimonys) as bait to trap people in their “movement”. And its true, the followers are in various altered states of councienceness and for various reasons. Highly suggestable. They really believe that what is happening is real. They are taught to respond as if it was real, even if they didnt see it themselves (called not getting so “familiar with the supernatural” that you take it for granted) Even the 16 Brazillians they claimed were raised from the dead a few weeks ago, is just a normal day at the church to hynoptized followers. So called Roscicrusian and Masonic “christians” travel from all over the world to visit thier “MECA”. Bottom line, a person WITHOUT the Holy Spirit indwelling WILL NOT HAVE red flags. There is no outcry from people who are most comfortable in a setting where Jesus and His word are NOT central. Alot of people go there and get exactly what they want: to see thier new-age beliefs/principles/practices finally taking center stage. Please pray for California, as these new agers infiltrate, populate and subjagate a region and call it “transformation”.
Okay, this may seem strange, but after you leave your church and speak out against this “charismania” movement you now become the enemy to those you served with for years. They will not listen to truth at all! If you speak against Bill Johnson it is like speaking against God himself.
So you lose your friends, (most of mine were part of my church), you know you must stand up for truth! God has been impressing on me for a very long time to fight this entire movement. I woke up from what I can only call a form of hypnosis, and don’t want to ever go back. The question is where do you go now! I have spent so many years praying and ministering to people, now what? Now that I know the truth, is it just God and I alone. Most of the churches in my area, (Austin, Tx), are either going with this charimania or they are “seeker friendly” churches. Those sermons are so watered down to appeal to the unchurched that they seem more like a business meeting then a church.!! I’m feeling very alone out here and very greived at those that are still caught in this movement!
Any advise would be appreciated from those of you who have been here?
Your experience is not strange, but all too familiar. Look at your current situation in a positive way, being thankful that the Lord showed you the truth. How great a testimony this is to the body of Christ who are looking for the truth. How great a move of Him to see you out of the lies and deception that have deceived so many! Count this as joy!
Seek the Lord and see where He will lead you next. He does have a plan. Pray for your friends. I know the isolation can be hard but it is for a purpose. You have friends here who know what you are experiencing and you are welcome to vent, ask questions, comment, add your views, experience, wisdom etc. here on my blog all you need to. I encourage you to do that because it helps others who read the comments.
Take this time to grow your knowledge. There are many opportunities to serve Him. Jesus was rejected, as were His true followers. This continues today here in this so called Christian nation. It could very well be that we are being prepared for what is to come. If that be the case we need to be prepared for great change, putting our hope in the Lord, looking forward to His coming. The many things going on in the world are signs of that change. Let’s be ready to give an answer for our hope and our faith to all who ask.
Be well Bev. Be at peace. You are not alone. 🙂
The seeker sensitive movement is everywhere Bev. The Seattle area is full of it. There is a church that has invited the “porn king” Ron Jeremy and a pastor who speaks against porn to debate on their stage for only $5.00 a ticket. They are charging people on a Sunday to hear a porn king and then have a meet and greet after! I am so grieved with what I see in the seeker churches and the signs and wonders churches. It’s like cancer and is spreading everywhere. My husband and I are discouraged too and don’t even know if we should belong to any church. We do have some Baptist ones about 20 minutes away from us but we just feel like maybe we’re supposed to do church as a family. I know I could teach my kids more than they ever have gotten from a church. Just use this time to get closer to God and I really believe it isn’t going to get better. Jesus said that himself when he asked who would He find when He returns? He’s only going to find a remnant and let’s make sure that we are that remnant/bride no matter what it takes.
Erin, I am not far from Seattle. Which church is this? I thought I heard in the news that Jeremy was being held on murder charges as well. Maybe that was resolved. Has he repented or should I bother to ask!!! Porn stars in the church! I have no words worthy of print at this moment.
Thanks for the heads up. Off to puke and shower, but before I do I want to thank you for you encouragement towards Bev. I love hearing from readers!!!
It’s Eastlake Community Church. I don’t think he has repented because he and a pastor are debating about it. Maybe has has though and this is his new way to make money. It really sickens me though that they would do this on Sunday. They could have easily done it on a Friday night or something (not that that would have made it all better).
From reading his statement there is no sign of repentance. Woe to this church who cannot call a sin for what it is. While it is true many are caught up in the snare of pornography, the answer is Jesus Christ and some good old fashioned bible based counseling. We certainly don’t need a meeting with a porn star. This is debauchery.
What would the Apostle Paul have to say about a porn king in the church? Oh wait a second, I know!!
(1) It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father’s wife.
(2) And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.
(3) For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing.
(4) When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
(5) you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.
(6) Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?
(7) Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.
John Crowder shared his “praise report” on Facebook about a week ago (sorry, was going to put the link, but went back and realized I had “unfriended” him) , how a well known porn magazine did a big 5 page story on his ministry. The support (thumbs up aka: “LIKE”) support was massive and instant with responses like “well Jesus hung out with sinners”, “thats where Jesus would be published if He was on earth today”, “Jesus hung out with prostitutes, bro”. You get the idea. I was nauseated.
Some days I think nothing Crowder does would surprise me. Then you come here to tell me THIS. Yikes. I have little hope for Crowder or his followers. Such blatant stupidity. Glad you de-friended him.
I agree with Bev. The isolation(rejection)is one thing and then there is this corresponding desire for validation from others going through the same season. I wonder if there is a “meeting place” online where we could reach out in fellowship as we go thru this season. Like having “like-minded” friends (we could call it XFaithbook!)? Also, I agree with the comments about coming “out of the church” and I think our experiences are just the “crowning” of the persecution of true believers in the church of America. I also sense we will be in home churchs that will become like houses of refuge. These will replace “local churches” for the “outcasted” true believers but we will enjoy a fellowship, family and common-union (communion) that we have never felt before. Worshipping in spirit and in truth, all in one accord, all in one place will be so precious, sacred and valued. You will know who you are fellowshipping with and worshipping next to. We will build each other up in the most Holy faith, seeking the Lord with all our hearts, mind and strength, equipping one another, checking each others armour and weaponry. Considering each others needs and family as our own. Honestly, I wish there was a home church in my area, or I would even consider starting one, but since my “awakening from my spiritual coma” all my friends are concerned about me…they all look at me with that “question-mark” on their faces. Just another pharisee to them now. Strange.
I totally agree that we need to support each other through this healing. We could even exchange e-mails or something. I have been praying for a year for God to lead me to His “true church” and like-minded believers. So far, we don’t have a place of worship that is pure. I may start one at home just for our family. I even play the piano and sing and I know I can teach my children more than they are learning now. My friends don’t really know that I have switched to the “other side” and one of them just got back from a big women’s prophetic conference and said that it was AWESOME – even after I prayed that God would show her the truth. When I have said just a little bit, she says that I am full of fear. It helps to hear people say that I am on the right track on not crazy or full of fear like my friends think! 🙂
I have a friend that just got back from Patricia King’s conference. Even though I was praying for her eyes to be opened, it has solidified her belief in the prophetic movement even more. She said it was “amazing”. I was trying to listen to her stories with discernment and hear the truth. It really seems like the conference is FULL of divination and the prophecies are appealing to pride. I tried to tell my friend to use discernment and not believe every prophecy but she didn’t seem to be worried, even if it wasn’t true. She feels that God will protect her from the false or deception if she is in the Word. It’s like there is an over confidence that no harm can come to her. While she was on a bus, she watched a woman from the conference prophecy over the bus driver. She asked him if he knew Jesus etc… Then she told him things about his life that know one could have known. When she got off the bus he asked my friend what was that that just happened to him? My friend said it was Jesus and He loved him so much. The man then said that he has had prophetic dreams his whole life and didn’t know what they were. Now this poor soul will think he had a God encounter. Heidi Baker was at this conference and said that God was going to shake things up and my friend immediately start shaking violently and then was thrown down to the ground and even kind of hurt her hip in the process. She could feel the “heavy weight of the Lord” on her but forced herself to get up to go to the front for prayer. On the way, she was thrown down again. said that she wanted everyone just to focus on Jesus and that people in this country don’t just concentrate on Him. She didn’t have a talk planned or anything. Where is the gospel? I never heard my friend once say that the gospel was preached. She would say that God WAS there because they talked about helping the poor, social justice etc…. My friend said that God’s glory would come into the conference and move over the people causing them to either be joyful or solemn etc….
I wanted to share this with you so you can see how deceptive this movement really is. Satan didn’t come to Eve showing his dark side. He came to her appealing to her fleshly desires and her spiritual desire of wanting MORE of God (or the knowledge of God). Just like the people who go to these conferences.
Thank you Erin! I like how you put that together in the last paragraph. These meetings and movements are built on the flesh and the pride of man. We keep praying!
I just got kind of caught up on reading this thread. There really are quite a few of us out there in the same place, aren’t there? And I haven’t been able to find a local church that seems like a safe place to be a part of either.
I’m curious, do others of you that haven’t been able to find a church have other Christians sometimes tend to act like not being involved in a church is the worst possible sin a Christian could commit?
I also know what it is like to pray and pray that friends will see the falseness of all of this only to have them seem to go deeper and deeper instead into all of it. That is quite discouraging to me.
Yes Cherylu to both questions. It goes on and on and gets worse all the time.
I am wondering how others respond to those other Christians who act like you are guilty of the worst possible sin if you don’t go to church? Any ideas?
I just had another such encounter this a.m. while buying groceries. I have tried to avoid this gentleman in the last years because I know I will be in for it. But sometimes it can’t be helped.
I just wanted to share a response I gave to a friend of mine who e-mailed me some insights “God” had given to her. They were just facts from the Bible that even Satan would have known about. She receives visions, dreams and hears voices all the time and believes she is a mystic seer. She wanted to know if God tells me information like that. I wanted to help her without accusing her of having demons. Maybe you can share with me what you think of my response. Was it too soft?
“The Lord doesn’t reveal details like this to me but when I read His Word, the Holy Spirit illuminates it and places it in my heart. For me, it is a safer way to “hear” what the Spirit is saying to me since it can be VERY difficult to tell the difference between the Holy Spirit and a familiar spirit when receiving thoughts or voices.”
“The Lord doesn’t reveal details like this to me but when I read His Word, the Holy Spirit illuminates it and places it in my heart. For me, it is a safer way to “hear” what the Spirit is saying to me since it can be VERY difficult to tell the difference between the Holy Spirit and a familiar spirit when receiving thoughts or voices.”
erin, I LOVE this response. 🙂
Thank you Claire! I love reading your responses and thoughts – please keep posting. I am learning a great deal!
Amazing post, and I wanted to say that I have been out of a Charismatic Church and these kinds of movements (cults) for about three years. It took me almost two to find a good Bible teaching church. Please look for a Church with expository teaching folks. Someone who teaches you the Bible, line by line, verse by verse. Anyone who takes scripture out of context and applies it to whatever their agenda is is NOT a Pastor. I understand where you all are coming from, it’s a lonely, tough time but God will give you all strength and peace about this. Lean on him and a great rescourse for finding a church is Sermon Audio’s “Local Church finder” I listened to several pastors from my area until I found my Church home. I am so blessed, be patient and keep praying. Here is the link to Sermon Audio
Thank you Teresa! 🙂
During your time in this false movement, do you feel that God still used you to bring people to Him? Did you have what they call “divine appointments” where God would lead you to help someone or were you only being led by false spirits?
No. But I believe He has used my experience in false teaching to learn and help others see the truth. I don’t believe God mixes in with false teachers, etc. There is no gain spiritually when we practice things not based on the truth no matter how many times we plaster His name on it, nor how many times we attach scriptures for impact.
I don’t so much believe in “divine appointments” as I do the leading of the Holy Spirit.
I have just finished reading this entire thread and am so blown away. Thank God for what you are doing with this blog and I know that you are reaching many with the truth. Please continue to contend for the faith and fight the good fight.
Praise God and thank you for your encouragement. I have often been to your site and have always found help there. Thank you for the work you do in helping us find the truth.
Blessings and peace in Christ!
I am really trying to understand that God doesn’t mix with false teachers. What is hard for me to really grasp this is all the friends I have in the movement that are bringing people closer to God through prayer, leading bible studies and sharing their testimonies with the lost. It seems to be helping people come closer to God but maybe they are just learning about a God that is not in the bible? If you are right MKayla, then my friends who say they hear from God daily and receive confirmation from others about what God said are not hearing from God at all. I was thinking there was a mixture going on. This is a hard one…
I know exactly what you mean when you say this is a hard one. Many things have been attributed to the power of, the presence of, or the will of God that it has become quite confusing to understand it all.
I believe it all goes back to doctrine.
2 Timothy 3: 16 -17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
If a person is truly studying the bible, or even just reading it for what it says, then this will be the effect. They would be able to see their error, whether it be personal sin or doctrinal.
So when we remain in the false teachings we have traded the “reproof – correction” of God for what we believe to be true. Then it is carried throughout our groups, in friendships and in studies, and from there to the world.
If not, then- 2 John 9-11 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.
The false prophetic operates under the same spirit as the psychics. Those who claim to be prophets of God have been imparted with this same demonic force. It can be quite knowledgeable, and can speak the same things to different people. I have experienced this myself. It is quite convincing. However, the “voice” does not speak the truths of God, but flesh, warm fuzzies, also called “destiny words” by some. These “prophecies” are man-centered rather than God-centered. They are concerned with the things of man and not the things of God. They reveal the flesh needs and desires of man’s heart, rather than they do the truth of God found in scripture. We know who God is because His word tells us. I’m speaking of prophetic words, but it is the same as these so-called “confirmations”.
So yes, these could very well be getting closer to who and what they perceive God to be, rather than who He is. When we ignore the word, we are in rebellion to God.
I also want to point out, that true Christians can prophesy, as they speak the truth to each other. It is also quite powerful, but we can tell the difference because the words will be centered on God, not on ME.
This is a big issue. We have been taught that everyone who confesses Christ is a Christian. When they turn and do strange things, teach strange ideas and twist doctrine, we have been told to accept it by faith. This is not the case as we see from the above scriptures (and there are tons more!). There is a key in understanding who has and who has not truly come in the name of the Lord.
I can highly recommend this teaching as it will be quite helpful.
Praying for you!
Thank you MKayla! You are a true blessing!!
mkayla, I just re-read your subject article again. I saw where you mentioned the Jesus Movement negatively. I realize that not everything that came out of the Jesus Movement was Godly and positive, but it is equally true that many teens and young adults were delivered out of darkness into the Lord’s marvelous light because of it. It is sad that the enemy gets into things God is doing to seek to pervert them, change their focus and direction, and cause great harm. But I think it will always be that way until the end of the age.
I remember Paul warning the Ephesians that ‘wolves’ would seek to come into their fellowship and wreak great destruction. That doesn’t mean the Ephesian chuch was a bad place or tolerated sin at that point; it means the enemy saw God moving there and sought to destroy what God had built. I believe this has happened in virtually every real and great move of God through the centuries.
I also believe this has been the main reason for the formation of different denominations — that believers have obeyed the Lord’s injunction in 2 Corinthians 6 to “come out from among them and be ye separate” as movements which began well were infiltrated by the enemy’s forces (Ephesians 6:10) and eventually became apostate.
We’ve seen this happening in recent years with a number of denominations which started well some time ago, but have now embraced Godless, unBiblical teachings and practicies. You’ve addressed the issue of Charismatic (which in this context refers to belief in the gifts of the Holy Spirit) groups departing from the purity of God’s Word, but this was happening in non-Charismatic groups for centuries before the things which have been mentioned here occurred. I do not offer this as any sort of defense for what Charismatics have allowed and even embraced, only to seek to bring clarity and balance here by looking at the big picture.
God bless you, dear sister, and all others who have dealt and are dealing with the fallout of such apostasy. Christ Jesus said that, “unless those days were shortened, even the very elect would be deceived”. Everything we’ve seen happening in the Body of Christ which has brought harm is in reality fulfillment of that prophecy. Jesus told us to pray that we would be found faithful, endure to the end. That is my prayer for myself and all other believers.
Claire, I believe the entire concept involving a movement of God is problematic. The greatest move is the gospel of Christ in that He died for all sinners. When a person hears the message of the gospel preached they will repent as the spirit of the Lord moves on them. It is simply man responding to the call of the Father. When it gets labeled and numbered – many did this, received that, this happened – it turns into a move of man, not one of God. As far as “satan getting in”, I’ve heard that used to explain even the most blasphemous, unrepentant preachers of our time.
It isn’t that I spoke negatively against this “Jesus Movement”, but barely mentioned some of my experience during that time, giving a background. I knew very little that day and sought only to find a way to begin warning others of the false doctrine, prophecy, etc. I had been so much a part of in recent years. And in looking back now I still say it was the same false teachings way back then, packaged a little differently. Still, someone “had a word” for someone else, knew this, felt that, and it was garbage.
I believe the “wolves” scripture you refer to is Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you not sparing the flock. The early church was faced with much pagan worship and certainly had it’s work cut out defending the faith against so much of that going on. And yes, we are seeing the anti christ rise up right from within the walls of the church itself. Who among us would have guessed. Now we see the world, including America who once claimed Christ returning to the same pagan/goddess worship of so long ago.
The Jesus Movement of the late ’60s/early ’70s was not confined to any one group of people or geographical area. There was tremendous spiritual hunger at that time due to a number of factors, including the failure of mainstream churches to convey the true Gospel, the departure of some churches from the Truth, and the failure of the hippie movement to produce good fruit. IIRC, the original Calvary Chapel was birthed out of the Jesus movement, and Chuck Smith’s Bible teaching on radio ministered to me during a critical time of my life. I saw a number of good things come out of it.
In reality, any move of the Holy Spirit is a Jesus movement. 🙂
I greatly appreciate the service you are providing to the Body of Christ in hosting this forum.
My story is a lengthy tale with more than a few twists and turns, and I will spare you the details. The latest turn is one that has had me scratching my head, at times. A little over three years ago, the Lord spoke to me, and sent me to a church that had a wild charis-maniac reputation, largely residual from the mid-1990’s, when the Toronto Blessing swept through the place. I have long been a firm believer in the gifts, manifestations, and fruit of the Spirit, from a Biblical perspective. What was happening in this congregation, back in the day, was absolutely NOT Biblical. I was terrified of the thought of ever attending such a place, for I knew that the spirit that had been manifest in that church was not holy.
After much reassurance from the Lord that it was indeed His will that I attend that particular congregation, I began attending. My first impression was, “I can’t believe this is a charismatic church.” There were no wild “manifestations” and few discernible true spiritual gifts in evidence. I got involved in the church, and quickly found myself surrounded by those who considered themselves to be “prophetic.” I took classes on the gifts of the Spirit, and quickly learned that my sola scriptura approach to spiritual matters was highly unpopular with some. They endeavored to educate me further, and (with the Lord’s permission) I became involved with the Healing Rooms. I believe He wanted me to see some of this stuff firsthand. In addition, He wanted to position me to call some of His sheep back into His fold. A large part of my ministry life has been what I call, “lost sheep patrol,” calling people back to God’s Word.
In the past few years, I have observed a few things at my church, that should be of interest to you. (And yes, I now call this place my home). First of all, many, if not most, of the charis-maniacs have left the congregation. Although I care about those folks, I must say, I am glad they are gone. It has been my earnest prayer that the true ministry of the Holy Spirit be restored to this church. Their presence, and spiritual influence was a hindrance, as they were following seducing spirits. God is pure, and Holy, and He abhors mixture with the profane and unholy. There is still work to be done in this category, and truth to be taught and upheld, but I see God’s hand at work here. More than anything, I am asking for your prayers. There are still some strongholds that remain.
One of the most distressing and devastating effects of the “move of the spirit [lower case intentional]” that the Lord has shown me is the terrible state of many of the marriages in this congregation. Divorce has become widespread, and many of the “intact” marriages are in trouble. I really believe that much of this is due to the largely self-absorbed, self-indulgent, narcissistic mindset that comes with charis-mania. When one’s spiritual life becomes all about chasing the latest feel-good experience, that habit spills over into the other relationships in one’s life, marriage notwithstanding. Even in cases where sexual infidelity has not been an issue, many spouses have become entirely self-absorbed, to the point of neglecting their marriage. While there may be more than one root to this ugly “fruit,” in my judgement, they are reaping a crop which was sown long ago. Rather than seeking to learn God’s will, via His Word, and choosing to faithfully discipline themselves according to that Word, they primarily began to look “to the spirit,’ without trying the spirits, according to the scriptures, first. This led to people getting in the bad habit of doing what seems right in their own eyes. That doesn’t honor God, and it really undermines marriage.
Our pastors are beginning to come out of this fog. They need prayer. Our senior pastor has just begun a teaching series which will hit on the topic of false prophets and false teachers. Please pray for me, that I faithfully speak the words the Lord would have me to speak, and that I stay mindful of 1 Timothy 1:7. God has not called me to surrender to a spirit of cowardice, but to walk by His Spirit – in His power, in His love, and with God-given self-control. At times the task seems daunting to me. Why God chose to use an uneducated female instrument for this task, is beyond me, given our pastors’ tendencies towards reformed theology. Maybe He’s giving me an opportunity to experience His strength in the midst of my weakness.. By God’s grace, I am what I am. May I be found faithful.
Thanks for being here, and for speaking the truth in love.
trustingmygod, thank you for posting this! I appreciate your story. Can you tell me what you experienced in the Healing Rooms?
Your statement “God is pure, and Holy, and He abhors mixture with the profane and unholy” totally resonsates with my spirit.
I can identify with this — “my sola scriptura approach to spiritual matters was highly unpopular with some” — for I have experienced this in my own life.
And, yes, not every move of the spirit is a move of God’s Holy Spirit! IMHO, valuing experiences above His Word is a major cause of confusion and strife in such situations as you described.
I know believers who seek to prevent or correct this by ignoring the Holy Spirit altogether, but throwing the baby out with the bath water is not God’s way, either. I do believe we must constantly seek His wisdom (James 1) and guidance in every thing. Jesus said the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth and He will lead us into all Truth. I have staked my life on this.
Let us behold the Head of the body, our anointed Christ, who has translated us from the Kingdom of darkness into the Kingdom of Light. Furthermore, give praise to Yah with Hallel u yah.
Welcome home thou called out one. You are the Ecclesia, His called out ones, who The Christ has purchased with His blood.
We welcome you to the Body of Our Lord, Yeshua, Salvation, and into the Kingdom of God.
Chilqiyyah, My portion is Yah
Can someone explain to me what ‘healing rooms’ are? I googled it, but it sounds like they’re just prayer rooms where people pray for others to be healed? Or am I missing something?
If you go to the side bar under Refuting IAHR you will get information on the healing rooms that I was once a part of. If that is not enough info google can bring up more.
Thanks. I’ll look for it.
I was excited to find your website. The Bethel Movement has been on my radar for about the last year and a half. We have little Bethels popping up in town and a number of people at our church are interested. These churches are growing too! I have hesitated to share my research with people. At first, I was concerned that if this WAS a work of God, I’d be in big trouble for speaking against it. Time and research has convinced me that the Holy Spirit has given me discernment about what these groups are messing with. I want to speak up and your website is encouraging me to do so.
Here’s my new favorite quote: “Discernment is not knowing the difference between right and wrong. It is knowing the difference between right and almost right .” -Charles Spurgeon.
Yes, I love it too.
Feel free to use my information if you feel it will help you. There is more info on by blogroll.
I pray the Lord to guide you in your decision and the strength to follow through with it. Just know in advance that you may not be well received or well liked afterwards. This is not a reflection of the truth, just the way they have been deceived. Their behavior does not change the truth any more than the lie planted in all our minds that to question is to go against leadership, which is the same as going against God. Jesus was quite patient in teaching his 12 and is no different toward us. Strange that questioning did not bother Christ, yet it does these yahoos. The lie is a control/manipulation tactic and has no weight in the kingdom of God. Oftentimes we don’t know what is wrong in the teaching, just that something is. It’s the place to begin research. Glad you did. 🙂
Let me know if I can help.
where are the churches preaching ONLY TRUTH???? Are there any left?
That is a good question. The only way to find out is to visit and listen with your bible open. If they have a website, find out who they “partner” with, check resources, bookstores, etc. If there is not one suitable, the Holy Spirit will teach you and the Lord will surely bring you into friendships who are like-minded.
I also came out of it, was in ministry as well, I tried to pull my mother out of the fire, but lost, her and my whole family, business connections and reputation around town are gone, but it is all worth it, because after all a servant is not above his master.
Hi Carla. Sorry to hear that happened to you, but at the same time I treasure your stand – it is all worth it. I’ll be popping into your blog!
Be well my sister. 🙂
You had said once that you do not listen to or read articles by Andrew Strom anymore because there are some things he has not let go from the Prophetic Movement. Would you mind elaborating on this because I have been reading his e-mails and books for a long time now.
Thank you and God Bless,
Erin, it’s been a couple of years ago that I noticed it and I couldn’t tell you now specifically what it was. I would say just use your own judgement in that, ok?
I’ve never posted here before, but wanted to thank the Lord for everyone who posted so far. I don’t mean or even want to flatter anybody or draw any attention to myself. Truthfully, I’m kind of broken right now. I don’t really know what to think. Let me explain briefly…
My wife, me, and our friend went to IHOP’s OneThing conference in December 2010. There my wife was refreshed by God’s grace and our friend and I started speaking in what a charismatic would call tongues. We came back with a zeal to pray fervently for all things, worshiping God like never before and having intense intercession prayer meetings. However, those began to fizzle off as another girl joined who is very strongly in the WoF/signs & wonders camp and I began to research all of these things.
The reason that I started to research this prophetic movement had to do with one conference we went to with James Goll and Andre Ashby. One of our friends had invited some people, but her friends quickly left after Andre began speaking and their reason was that they felt a “strange fire.” I tried to talk a little bit more with the others as to what that meant and she refused to let me contact her friends so I could at least ask them what they experienced. At one point, Andre asked everyone who was feeling the presence of God to come to the front. I was not, or didn’t know what he meant, so I just stayed in my seat while 80-90% of people went to the front. Many people were jerking around as we prayed God would pour out more fire and more of His Holy Spirit upon them. Then they prayed for us and at the intermission we bought a bunch of the books that they had for sale out front. In the afternoon, Andre was speaking again about some miraculous things he’d experienced with his wife who had just passed away and later went on to tell us how great we were. All of a sudden, my mind was drawn to the book of Jude like a laser beam. I couldn’t shake the feeling I had and quickly flipped there my heart racing reading the warning penned by Jude almost 2000 years ago. Several of the verses immediately began jumping off of the page nearly ten feet into my heart and I was greatly alarmed. The description of what was going on in front of me matched EXACTLY what Jude had warned about. I thought, “Oh my! Could this man really be a false prophet? And all these people deceived?” My wife and our friends were LOVING the conference, being touched by God in ways that they never had before, but yet here I was, miserable in my seat with this sudden sense of heaviness coming over my head like pressure around my temples. Andre spoke up at some point telling us that that was the oil (or anointing) of the Holy Spirit and my wife later told us that she had felt literally oil running down the back of her head.
Thus my exploration began and I grew more and more miserable and afraid as I read. I didn’t know what to think, I didn’t trust anybody (if anyone, I trusted people on the websites I read), I got mad at Christians everywhere, and stopped praying. I could barely read the Bible, but I was afraid to misinterpret it, so it didn’t even go into my heart (so to speak). I was left spiritually dry and I brought up some things to my wife and she became afraid to worship to some of the songs we would regularly listen to (from Bethel and IHOP mostly). She barely prayed and kept accusing me of not believing God for spiritual gifts. I got really angry one time and blurted, “well I guess I am just a griever of the Holy Spirit and am destined for hell.” That night, a presence came over me while I was sleeping that I woke up in terror and screamed as loud as I could for ten seconds. I couldn’t control my body, all I could do was scream. Then I spent hours praying and repenting about fleshly sins I was struggling with due to a lack of connection to God. After this, I became a little more open back to the supernatural, going to a church called The River OC (Orange County).
They are strongly influenced by Bethel in much of their worship as well as their idea of moving in the supernatural. They recently joined The Vineyard Newport (Newport Beach in California). My wife loves the church so so much, the worship really does it for her. I was enjoying the church for some time, but then some things just really started to bother me. I don’t remember what it was that triggered my re-investigation of this whole movement (where everybody who is somebody in the giant charismatic/prophetic circle seems connected), but I started to really doubt this church (reading books like The Other Side of the River). There has been such disagreement between me and my wife as I bring up things. As it stands now, we have to go to a church that really worships God like this one does; she refuses to do it any other way. Every week the teaching eats away at me and I am left off in worse condition than when I came in. I don’t enjoy the worship, I feel like it takes me away from God as extremely loud music pounds into my ears, I can’t focus or concentrate on anything else but the words (many of which I don’t want to sing).
Anyways, on to my actual questions (by the way, please pray for my wife and I). So we went to hear a rather pumped up evangelist/prophet last night. I again, became miserable as the worship started going on as I saw every song was by Jesus Culture or from Bethel. I tried to pray to God and worship Him, but it was very hard. My wife hates seeing me miserable, so she either tries to cheer me up by helping me to worship God or kind of rebukes me for being all sad around all these loving people; how am I loving them by being critical and judgmental she said. Anyways, I tried not to get more angry at her comment and I would say, thanks be to God, He helped me exercise self-control! So then it came time for the speaker, Todd White from the Power & Love conference, endorsed by Bill Johnson (on their website). Consequently, Bill Johnson was endorsed by Todd White.
And here we have Todd White telling us about all these wonderful experiences that he’s had with God (looking back my conscience is debating whether or not this would qualify as boasting like the “super-apostles” in 2 Cor 11). From words of knowledge to praying for healing and people’s hearts who were hardened before turning around completely. Some of them even accepted Christ after a word of knowledge that “God loves them and sees their heart to help children.” I just don’t understand how there are all these testimonies of healing and helping people with words from God, supposedly leading people closer to Christ. They also trained people to go out and do this market place evangelism where they would pray for people with words of knowledge and prophesy and healing and seven or eight people went up and testified as to what God did. Is that not God? I don’t know anymore.
At the end of the evening my wife had some neck pain and the pastor of the church prayed and it went away. When we got home it was back again so I went to massage it a little bit and pray some more. She commented she didn’t think she had enough faith and maybe her neck was hurting because God wanted her to pray for someone, but because she didn’t, now she was stuck with the neck pain. There is so much tension every time we talk about these things. To make matters worse, we are also attending a local Bible university that is in complete agreement with Vineyard churches, with some of the teachers being the founders of the movement (like Bob Fulton). I love the people there and my heart is torn. They appear to be so loving and kind and godly and wise. I’ve been pushed to pray and read the Bible more, but I just don’t know anymore. She wants to go to conferences, but told me earlier “it’s just not the time to go to conferences until there’s some resolution and settling on your end. There’s no need for me to get pumped up at all to do anything more than what I am doing.”
I feel awful and every time I think about just giving in to the whole movement, a lot of anger at God’s word comes over me and I feel like ripping up my Bible saying “who needs this.” I don’t know where that comes from, but I think that if I get totally into this worship movement, I won’t need the Bible anymore, I can just worship myself into bliss and understanding of all things, filled with love and words of knowledge and prophesy. Help me Lord! But I can’t just agree with this movement, my conscience won’t let me (maybe it’s more than that). It’s so hard though because my wife is fully convinced that this is what serving God looks like, like what was preached at the Power & Love conference. Now, as the spiritual leader of our household, I don’t know what to do. Any comments are greatly appreciated as are any prayers. Thank you!
I can relate to your situation having had come out of the same kind of involvement. Your wife in feeling refreshed by what she considered to be the presence of God was in fact receiving from another spirit, demonic, masquerading as the Holy Spirit. We find these same experiences in other religions and in the occult, as well as healing powers – kundalini, and reiki. Tho they seem to be quite powerful are not from God even though they have swept over the church at an alarming rate by men and women who claim to come in the name of the Lord, yet are nothing but ravenous wolves.
Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 “For many will come in My name, saying I am the Christ, and will deceive many.”
These false teachers who claim to come in the name of the Lord, also claim to be anointed, which is the same as to say I am the Christ.
10 “And then many will be offended, will betray one another. 11 “Then, many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12” And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 “But he who endures to the end shall be saved”.
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ! or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 “For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Anytime the focus is on man and not on God – Jesus – who bore our sin, we can be assured false doctrine is at the core. Old testament prophecy was about repentance, prophets were dreaded and hated because the people did not want to hear the truth about themselves. Still they persevered in bringing the word of God taking no care for their well being. The preaching of the word of God, the true gospel with signs following brought true repentance on the people. Even John the Baptist came with the very message to repent for the kingdom of God is at hand. Today these so called prophets are nothing but ear ticklers as the people have departed from the truth.
2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers, 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
So we see today ear-tickling prophecy about the person, their ministry, how great they will be, how loved they are, how feared of the enemy, they have healing and deliverance emphasis and many methods and needs for them because as Cal Pierce has stated, and Bill Johnson has concurred, the church will not go forth on crutches. Truly, they are waiting for a time they will become like gods – the original lie in the garden and otherwise known as the manifest sons of god – demonic doctrine.
Galatians 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
The new testament states some were sick or were left sick here and there. There is no truth in the teaching that we are all to be healed as part of our salvation. Christ has healed us from our sinful ways, offering to us a way out through Him, uniting us again to the Father. Our bodies will wear out and die, many of us will suffer sickness and disease, according to the will of God. In Christ, we have given over our lives and laid down our own will and desire for His. The day will come when we will be given new bodies but it will not happen upon the whim of man.
2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.
Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things to draw away the disciples after themselves.
Worship, which should be solid adoration and appreciation of God has been turned into its own god, a hypnotic experience which prepares people to accept the false doctrine intended to separate them from God. It is emotionally based, full of fleshy and demonic manifestations, having nothing to do with the Lord. Yes, the lyrics can reflect biblical principles but the truth must be mixed in to the lie in order for the message to be convincing. Music is a powerful force used in all religions and can be quite dangerous. See how it has become sought after, no longer a hymn or two, but song after song, phrase after phrase, carried out for long periods, sometimes hours. That, along with the heavy drumming is the hypnotic impact and also used in voodoo.
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him who is the head of all principality and power.
The original idea you had, that something is wrong, something is off was the first inkling of discernment in which the Lord was attempting to draw you out, draw you to His word for the truth, to save you and your wife from this destruction. Don’t tear up your bible or give into these movements, get out of them now. Be washed in the word of God. I will pray for you. Please feel free to ask for whatever you may need.
Thank you for your honesty and humility. I will pray for you and your wife. I also struggle with the confusion the prophetic movement brings. I feel God lead me away but I still study it and am always trying to figure it out or understand why my friend doesn’t feel the same as me. She just got back from the conference all pumped up “again” saying that revival has begun. I have just had to decide that I need to do what I feel God is leading me to do and not figure out why other people are still involved. I have had to start over with God and put aside anything that was supernatural. So far, I haven’t had a desire or need to do any of that stuff anymore. I do feel your wife isn’t allowing you to be the spiritual leader of your home. I was doing that a bit to my husband who NEVER felt right about this movement. Just keep praying that the Lord will turn her heart and give her discernment. Maybe suggest that instead of going to any church right now, you two can just read the Bible together and as she reads it, the Holy Spirit can speak to her heart. I don’t think you need to teach her, let the Word speak to her. If she says that she won’t go to any other church, just stay home and have communion together and study and read the Word of God.
Thanks Erin, I am glad to hear you are doing so well. 🙂
Docrob50 – I haven’t censored or deleted your comment. I am reading and considering what you have written. I don’t always respond right away and thanks for understanding.
You’re not alone in your journey, hold on tight to God’s Word. He is our only source of strength and refuge. When God woke us up and called us out of the sings and wonders deception, we had many moments of where we were about to toss the Bible and walk away too. Thank God we didn’t and that He is faithful. Looking back at it now I recognize that it was just another ploy by Satan to get us to give up. If he can’t keep you deceived in it, he will certainly try to keep you deceived out of it. In the form of despair, discouragement, depression, anger etc. There are many testimonies that speak of this.
Although I consider myself fortunate in the fact that I didn’t have to deal with my spouse believing and wanting to stay in the WoF teachings, he wasn’t really interested, at first, when I told him we had been deceived. We were still trying to recover from leaving the church structure. I too had read “The Other Side of The River” and by that time we had already left church, ministry and felt all alone, we were both in a state of depression, convinced we had failed God miserably.
For reasons we still don’t understand, through a series of circumstances, God took us completely out of the structured church system, before He revealed to us that we had also been taught false doctrine. In some ways it was a relief, until the magnitude of it all set in. We thought we were just failures, now we had to face the reality that all the teachings that we had taken in and believed and taught others, were deception and lies. So that added to our sense of dread and despair. Thankfully God doesn’t give up on us, ever. The very fact that you are here, commenting and sharing your frustrations and fears, and asking for prayer, is God at work in your life.
The road is not easy and the path narrow. We never heard to many sermons on that. Coming out we realized how much we had bought into the easy believism lies of “God just wants to bless us and give us what we want”….mindset. So we were not prepared to deal with the ugly, hard truth, or so it seemed. But through it all, God kept us. He always supply’s strength and encouragement, just when we feel we can’t take another step.
When we were both ready to just walk away (more than once), the next question was always “Where will we go?” We both knew the answer…..apart from God there is no place to go. It took us a while to realize that although we were shaken to our very core spiritually and that most of what we had been taught and believed were lies (always a little truth mixed in with any deception)……it was God doing the shaking and if God was shaking us, we knew we were His and He was setting us back on His firm foundation. There’s a lot of debris and rumble that He is clearing away. He is and will continue to build up. Cling tightly to His Word, He knew from the beginning you would be where you are today and He has already made a way for you to escape, deliver and restore to you what the enemy has tried to take.
Keeping you and your wife in much prayer.
For all reading these comments, be encouraged by the promise. Those who have commented and have not received an answer, I am working – considering your words, praying for you and my response before I write it. Blessings
28 Have you not known?
Have you not heard?
The everlasting God, the Lord,
The Creator of the ends of the earth,
Neither faints nor is weary.
His understanding is unsearchable.
29 He gives power to the weak,
And to those who have no might
He increases strength.
30 Even the youths shall faint and be weary,
And the young men shall utterly fall,
31 But those who wait on the Lord
Shall renew their strength;
They shall run and not be weary,
They shall walk and not faint.
ahhh. Ok. I hope you can read with an open heart then.
Thank you for your time.
After much consideration I cannot post your comments. I can’t have someone praising Buddha and encouraging struggling Christians to follow such a false religion. Buddha is not God, is not part of God and never will be God.
Isaiah 43:10-11 You are My witnesses, says the Lord, and My servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before me there was no other God formed, nor shall there be after Me. 11 I, even I am the Lord and besides Me there is no savior.
Isaiah 45:5 I am the Lord and there is no other. There is no God besides Me, I will gird you, though you have not known Me, 6 that they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord and there is no other; 7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord do all these things.
Isaiah 40:18 To whom then will you liken God? Or what likeness will you compare to Him? 19 The workman molds an image, the goldsmith overspreads it with gold, and the silversmith casts silver chains. 20. whoever is too impoverished for such a contribution chooses a tree that will not rot; he seeks for himself a skillful workman to prepare a carved image that will not totter. 21 Have you not known? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth? 22 I is He who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in. 23 He brings the princes to nothing: He makes the judges of the earth useless.
All scripture is written from Father God, telling of who He is and how He relates to His people, making a way for them, loving them, tho they do not love or often show their love for Him. Man is sinful and was separated from God, having been given the law, the 10 Commandments directly from Him, yet unable to follow. God sent His Son Jesus Christ, who is God, the meaning of the name Emmanuel, to serve as a one time sacrifice for all who would believe in Him and who sent Him, made aware the need of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. Jesus walked with the people here on earth, lived with them, suffered as them, was tempted, yet remained sinless. All that we encounter in life was experienced by Him. He is now our High Priest, having suffered all that we have and can identify and relate to all that we go through. He sits at the right hand of the Father interceding for us.
Isaiah prophesied – 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son i given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end. Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom to order it and establish it with judgment and justice from that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
We see in the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John the ways of Jesus, how he cared for the people, even sinners who denied Him. In John 1 we see that Christ was with God in the beginning at creation, that He is God and He is the Word.
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness and the darkness did not comprehend it.
In Revelation 21: 5 we see what is to happen to non believers – Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful” 6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 “He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 22:12 “And behold I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
You stated you had been reading my blog for some time now. You also said that you had been raised around men such as Oral Roberts, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker, etc. Surely in your reading here you would have found that I do not consider these men to be true Christians! They are not. They are false prophets, liars who form the word of God to say things it does not say. They are word of faith, prosperity preachers who have been found out for who and what they are.
So, it is no wonder to me that you and your wife could not be convinced the meaning of the gospel or the need for a savior having had been exposed to such lies about who Christ is and what He came to do. I share that with you. In addition, you made a statement that healing comes only from having enough faith. I assure you, that comment did not come from me, nor would I agree with that as a comment from someone else. It is quite the opposite and healing ministries is one thing I expose here as false, as lies, as heresy, garbage.
The blog was set up to expose the lies and false teaching and prophecies found through men and women like Cal Pierce, Bill Johnson, Bob Jones, John Paul Jackson, Pat King, Cindy Jacobs, etc. People like Matthew who struggle are not doing so because of Christ, but because of the false one set up to deceive and lead many astray. For more on this you may read my comment to him.
As Christians, we have not missed out on anything, nor are we in fear, as you seem to believe. We have available to us all that God had planned for us. We have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who leads and counsels us, who brings us peace and comfort as He is known as the Comforter. See John Chapters 14-17. We have the promise of eternal life forever with our Savior as our light and peace, without the troubles of this world, without sin, sorrow or pain. We do not need meditation or a practice eastern religion, we have all that we need in Christ. This is far more than any other religion can offer.
I hope and pray, and I sincerely mean it, that you will consider the true Christ now that I have revealed Him to you, and that you turn to Him in repentance before it is too late.
@Matthew, if there is one thing I can clearly say about my similar experience, it is that I should have listened to my conscience. If there is no other reason to stop and step back and take a look at things, you conscience has been given to you by God as a first red flag, so to speak. As a born again believer, the Holy Spirit uses our conscience to warn us.
“I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit… “Rom 9:1
Paul, looking intently at the Council, said, “Brethren, I have lived my life with a perfectly good conscience before God up to this day.” Acts 23:1
“….that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. In view of this, I also do my best to maintain always a blameless conscience both before God and before men.” Acts 24:15,16
I think your wife will respect this, if you present it to her kindly.
I understand your struggle with reading scripture. I don’t know why this seems to be a common struggle people have when they come out of the prophetic movement, but it seems to be so. I think we feel frustrated and the temptation is to think it is all too complicated for us to figure out.
You can ask yourself and your wife one simple question without a PhD in theology, “Did Jesus, or any of the apostles who wrote the new testament, teach or practice the things I am seeing taught?”
It is confusing because the words sound right, but the message seems off. Am I right? The girl in Acts 16:16 said some very ‘right’ words, but she was said to have a spirit of divination. Proof enough for me to realize I had to look beyond the surface, beyond the terminology, and see what was truly being pushed and promoted.
Another big red flag to me is when teaching times become filled with stories of the speaker’s awesome experiences, promoting a feeling of ‘I want to be like so and so. So and so has something I don’t have.’ I have even heard such ‘teachers’ make comments like “the Holy Spirit told me to just tell stories because otherwise they (the poor unenlightened ones) just won’t ‘get it'”
Again, if amazing stories got anyone saved, Paul of all people (other than Jesus) could have filled his letters with such. He did not. They (signs) happened all right, and some were documented, but only as accompanied the true gospel of repentance being preached.
One last comment (and please know many of us understand the way you feel right now, and we are praying for you and your wife to have a love of the truth, and the God given strength to stand, and wisdom). We can judge the teachings without condemning the people. In fact, we are instructed to judge what is said. People confuse the two.
opps……sorry the God within has always had a question mark around the whole notion of sin. I don’t buy it so I guess I won’t be repenting anytime this life time. But i do believe in prayer and will accept such kind wishes for my well being and as a Buddhist I will in turn practice sending thoughts of metta and compassion to you as well.
Hmm…the sin issue. Well, none of us LIKE that we are sinners but Christ is the way out of it. He is our hope, our Savior! Maybe I was remiss and should have focused on the love the Father has for us –
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him would not perish but have everlasting life.
2 Thessalonians 2:16 6 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.
1 John 3:1
Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
I’ve been through some very hard times (you’ve probably read of some here) and I can say that it was the peace and love of God that got me through those times. Nothing in the world can compare to the love of God and the gifts, the perfect gifts He gives to His children.
Hey, thank you for writing, greatly appreciate the insight, especially with friends I know.
It was great to read what you have written here, and I am happy you have found “the way out” of the cultish darkness that aggravates Christians these days. My girlfriend is unfortunately still in the darkness, having gotten mixed up in several “revival” and “bridal fire” cultish groups before we met. She is a really beautiful, amazing woman with a strong voice, but they have poisoned her mind with “feelgood” junk. Whenever she has a down day (which we all have and are totally natural–How else can we recognize the GOOD days?), she reverts to thinking that demons are attacking her, and she has to rebuke them “In the name of Jesus”. When the bad thoughts don’t go away, it makes her afraid that God is not with her, and she is not truly saved. She runs to her room to pray and rebuke, alienating herself from her parents, myself, and worse, her two small boys who have witnessed Mom scream that “the demons are trying to kill her”. It’s awful.
I have always been able to discern who is right and who is wrong, as a product of my tumultuos childhood. I have told her to be very careful who lays hands on her, and who she listens to. Jesus said, “Take care that NO MAN deceive you.” She is very naive, not believing that Pastors and “clergy” could and do outright lie to her in order to spread their own distorted “gospel truths”. As expected, I became the enemy, “trying to jealously tear her from God”. I have been keeping on, not willing to let her sink back into the darkness, caring for her boys while she has been in the psychiatric hospital for over two weeks. Honestly, I am determined to shine a light on this darkness more than anything else, because it has deprived two awesome kids (six and four years old) from their mother’s love. And whosoever harms the little ones will suffer greatly.
The church that she attended when we met are big fans of Bethel church, which I can hardly mention anymore without wanting to throw up, to be graphically honest. They hand out Bill Johnson audio CD’s, and have terrible sermons about Gods supernatural giftings. I have walked out on more than one occasion, not willing to submit my mind to lies and, hopefully, sending the message that I am offended. I come from a small town Baptist background of “love God, respect Him, He will make your paths straight simpleness”. I had always been taught that the charismatics were “out there”, usually preaching a different Jesus. Ain’t that the truth. Last year, she phoned me after an evening church service where there were “healers” from Bethel church, and she wouldn’t stop laughing. It wasn’t genuine laughter, it was creepy, forced laughter that sounded like it was solicited at gunpoint. I asked her who spiked the Kool-Aid. She said she witnessed miracles and healings, and why didn’t I believe her? I said I don’t believe anything unless it happens to me or I trust the source. Her beautiful mind is skewed M’kayla, and we’ve been working hard to get her back.
What is a good first step? She is surrounded by the most loyal people I have ever seen, except for her “cult friends”, who don’t care. Isn’t it ironic that those who promised her God’s love have poisoned her, strung her out, and left her to the wolves. Well, it is her fault for submitting to them to begin with. I don’t blame her, we’re all tempted by feel-good theology at some point. But, like any spilled milk, there comes a time when we stop crying and just clean it up, remembering while we scrub that we made a mistake, and it can be fixed with the right methods.
Her method is still to rebuke the bad thoughts. She doesn’t see the error of “Bethel church” type teachings. She doesn’t care to know. Her “christian” counselor encourages the Holy Spirit to endow her with the “gift of tongues” and any other supernatural healing abilities. Her most trusted influences are clergy who are feel-good spiritualists, as opposed to the loving family members and myself who have stuck with her through all the garbage and are still here. She doesn’t see the REAL love and blessings that have been given to her. She only sees herself as a Christian warrior, always under attack and constantly battling and the world must stop while she finds the “right-mix” that will give her that perfect feeling of Godly bliss in her life. This is truly a situation steeped in false truths on her end, and endless hand-wringing on our end as we try to find the “right mix” that will put sense into her head, while keeping the kids in her custody. Yes, that has become an issue as well.
While she has been away we have sanitized her room of “extreme Christianity”. Her prayer shawl, prayer dimes(?), supernatural living books,etc., have all been removed. In their place are pictures of her kids, and pictures they drew for her. We’re trying to ground her again.
Thanks again, sorry for the length, but you strike me as being very familiar with what I am going through. Any suggestions are appreciated, if not maybe a quick prayer. One more thing, sorry to keep you, but do you find that people who have been brainwashed like this become extremely selfish? Right now everything is “Pray for me”, “Call me”, “care for me”, “visit me”. Well, yeah, we love her and do all those things for her, but she requests them with an arrogance that rivals Christ’s humility. The arrogance that she is the center of the universe, which is what Bill Johnson teaches at Bethel, that makes sense. Just a thought…
May God bless you and your famly, stay the course.
Eric, my heart goes out to all of you and yes, I will pray for you all. But what of YOU Eric? You need to find out if this relationship is where the Lord would have you. That is probably something you did not expect to hear from me. It should be a place of concern for you, enough to drive you to study and really seek the will of the Lord. The sad part, and sometimes even scary part in this, is that these people who are caught up in charismania are not following the Lord, but another created one who is nothing at all like our Savior. It is honorable that you want to help her, and I can understand your deep concern for the children. But to what end?
The things you described are quite typical. The “false” spiritual warfare is held in high regard, the deeper the battle the more spiritual, or better in touch with “god” the person is believed to be, which gains them much attention. And yes, everything is about “me”, spiritual warfare and all – the next word, the next touch, experience, on and on it goes. If there would be any sanity it would be the realization that Christianity is not about ME, but about Christ and the lost. These practices, even when done innocently, are grounded in eastern spirituality, for those religions are about feely, touchy, attaining godhood, all about the person. It is a strong contrast with Christianity, where our salvation is freely given, and the needs of others are held in higher regard than that of our own; where Christ and the gospel is the center. Can she see this?
Is she able to come to the realization that these practices are not found in the bible? Because it will be the word of God that brings her truth. The Holy Spirit is the only one who can lead her to this place, but she has to come to where she begins to doubt and starts to ask Him questions that can only be answered thru the bible.
In addition, the supposed spiritual warfare, demons out to kill her, could be a sign of mental illness. And as you stated she has been in the hospital – so is this new, is it demonic possession….schizophrenia…things to think about and get serious help with.
So, please, be careful that the helping does not become the driving force in your life. Because when that takes place it is nothing other than idol worship. These are harsh words, but they are said with concern and care. She must be willing to change, otherwise you are wasting your time and for you to spend your life in a place the Lord would not have you, is idolatry. Yeah, something we aren’t taught much, but it’s true! This is where only the Lord can lead you into knowing if He would have you involved. Do some study in the teaching in the NT on how we are to deal with people who teach or follow false doctrine. That in itself is a key because that is where these people are at! The spirit behind this deception is very strong and people are kept in it because of their flesh and their pride. I do hear reports of people coming out and so there is hope – because God is stronger, but He has given us a free will to do as we please, worship what we please and He will never violate that.
Take care Eric, keep me posted! 🙂
I read this horror story of this lady. I was appalled to see that there was only the briefest mention and even that, only in passing, that this woman is currently an in-patient in a psychiatric hospital and has been for some time. My god people are you so blind? Your friend is obviously seriously mentally ill and her religious believes as twisted and distorted as they are – are again clear evidence of the psychotic nature of her current condition.
Does she need good, loving caring friends and family in her life? You betcha! And she needs god’s love too – but in good time. Mostly what your friend needs is a an environment that is safe, mindful, patient, kind, loving, and does not push some theological agenda or get caught up in her delusions of entitlement and grandiosity. So, listen to the doctors. They are tools of god too. And right now they now a whole lot more than anyone else as to what is good for your friend – what will help stabilize her – and probably help making sure she stays on her medications…………..
Be patient and act so as to not cause further harm.
There is a very important point in this and people like yourself who have had no experience or exposure would understandably miss it. This woman, being a Christian, has been exposed to some very bad teaching, stemming from the occult, which may be the reason for her hospitalization. I can’t say as I don’t know her past or her background. I am not a doctor either, however in my experience and of late, I have heard stories of people that after being exposed to this particular church, teachings, etc. begin to exhibit psychotic behavior. It is not in true biblical teaching this takes, place, quite the opposite, however, it is as you said twisted and distorted, and having nothing to do with true Christian teaching – quite a difference, and quite dangerous.
Giving advice is something I shy away from, unless I am asked, and when given, is based on biblical teaching, always encouraging the individual to seek the Lord for guidance and wisdom in how to handle their situation. Such an act, would never be harmful. When this is put into the correct perspective, it makes better sense.
I agree, that doctors can be of great help as can the proper medication.
sorry the God within has always had a question mark around the whole notion of sin. I don’t buy it so I guess I won’t be repenting anytime this life time.
Robert Bridges, who is the God within you? If the God of the Bible lives within you, there can be no denial of sin. Sin is a fact of human existence which Christ Jesus verified continually.
It is written in His Word that we live one life here on earth, then after death comes the Judgment.
I pray you will seek Him with all your heart. If you do, He will be found of you.
He is not willing any that should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
I made a mistake in the last line of my post above. It should read:
He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
You assume that I do not understand the kind of harm that can come to some who are exposed to religious quackery – my word not yours – for the self same teachings stemming from the occult.
You are wrong. I do understand and I also understand something of mental illness, schizophrenia, depression, bi-polar mood disorders and psychosis. It is farily common knowledge among psychiatrists and psychologists that certain kinds of bizzare religious ideation and teachings plug right into some mentally unstable people – much to theirharm.
But this not Satan we speak of. While I cannot say yay or nay regarding the woman who was the subject of this original post – her mental illness and its course of treatment, I do know that these teachings of the Bethal Church and this Johnson fellow, are as you say it, quite dangerous indeed.
Especially to those who are the most susceptible among us. This woman is a spiritual victim and there are many, many of us who have been caught up in this kind of destructive web of half truths, distorted mythologies, and esoteric voo doo of various stripe.
and I agree with your wise counsel regarding the giving of advice especially unsolicited advice.
I bow to you and your better judgment. I got caught up in the story and in her pain and wanted to call out – hey somebody pay attention – this person is sick.
And thank you also for the kind words and not trashing me off as some anti christian wack job based on previous comments.
Yes, I was hoping to get us both on the same page, not realizing of course that you were aware of Bethel! I do hope and pray she and Eric get the help they need, and those boys!
me too – they need all our prayers……and thank you
I briefly looked at your blog and I have a question to you. Why do you have 99% of “deception” blast articles and 1% of Gospel message? I read Bible so many times and never seen that Jesus spend so much time teaching against deceptions, either apostles…
M’Kayla your blogs are a blessing. I didn’t grow up in the charasmatic movement but I was hungry for it when I got out of high school. I became friends with people who had a pentalcostal/ word of faith background and needless to say I don’t have those friends anymore. I’m so encouraged by your blogs because I was fooled too. My family could see it but I couldn’t. With God’s love, mercy, and precious grace, he got me to freedom and I found your blog and started researching. Although I didn’t experience a lot of what you had, I’m afriad if I had stayed in that atmosphere it would have only been a matter of time. I just wanted to thank you from the bottom of my heart for your blog. I too am going through a stage where I don’t trust anyone’s word of mouth anymore. If it’s not in the bible, I won’t listen. I used to love to worship and sing all types of songs that are written by people who are apart of the charismatic/word of faith/IHOP and it breaks my heart because I wanted to worship the Lord but was I truely worshiping God or worshiping myself? These questions I know I will find answers to but only through God’s word. Thank you again. Blessings to you.
Hi Michelle! Thanks for the kind words and even more for the testimony to God’s love in bringing you out! I am thrilled to hear of this. Whatever it is you need to know, He will show you!
Blessings back at ya! 🙂
Thank you so much for this blog, it really helps me see where people are coming from. While I’ve never myself been involved in the NAR I am constantly coming across people who are heavily into it and don’t seem to realise the issues. Especially people from a charismatic background where there seems to be a kind of anti intellectualism and subtle discouragement from questioning anything the leadership say. To me the Bible seems to encourage the opposite – test everything, hold on to the good. Paul was a genuine apostle and yet he commended the Bereans for not taking him at his word.
I just have no idea how to help. I had to stop seeing a lovely girl because she was so far into it and I was skeptical since the whole thing just gives me a bad vibe. Now she’s about to fly off to San Fran (from NZ!) in part to visit Bethel. I don’t think there’s anything much I can do… besides pray. Maybe her going will turn out to be a good thing.
Thanks for all the work you’ve put into this blog. VJ, I feel your pain. Recently, I began a relationship with one of the most amazing Christian women I’ve known in my entire life. We’ve known each other since college, and both thought about dating the other from time to time, but the timing and circumstances were never right. At the beginning of this year, it finally came together, and our times together were amazing (she lives a couple hours away). We have so much in common, it’s ridiculous, and it soon began to feel like we’d been close friends our entire lives.
However, she’s been raised in a family/church environment that encourages acceptance of almost all supernatural claims at face value. If the preacher/prophet/apostle/worship leader, etc. seems to have good intentions, it seems like that’s good enough for them, no matter what nonsense comes out of their mouths. “Eat the meat, and spit out the bones” is the constant mantra.
While I grew up in a Pentecostal home with a Word of Faith background, thankfully my parents moved away from WOF early on and placed a high value on studying the Word and practicing discernment. I’ve personally experienced the devastating effects of false prophecy in my own life, as well as the stress and uncertainty produced by trying to follow “prophets” whose teaching has no grounding in the Word.
As soon as my relationship started taking off (I thought “this is finally it”!), she received an offer to come do some consulting work for Bethel, for reasons I won’t go in to. She asked me what I thought about them, and I was frank, but gracious, in my assessment. I assumed she didn’t know what they were all about. I was wrong. Our discussions remained respectful, but I was increasingly blunt in expressing my opinion. Long story short, within a few weeks they offered her a position, and she decided to accept. She’s leaving me, her family, an awesome house, and an incredible career in an internationally-known ministry to move to Redding. Even though we both love the Lord, want to be involved in ministry, enjoy the same things, enjoy each other, long for the moving of the Holy Spirit, and enjoy every moment we’re together, she says we can’t continue because we seem to be on a different page regarding ministers and ministries that I believe are saturated with error. It makes no difference what I show her, what I say, or what evidence I present from the Word. No difference. It’s like spiritual blinders are in place. Every discussion is always reduced to the false dichotomy of Spirit vs. reason, or the false dichotomy between people who want to move in the power of the Spirit and people who don’t. I told her that I fundamentally reject those false choices (I can recognize the language of Bethel all through her arguments), and that I personally seek the power of the Holy Spirit, but recognize that there are lying spirits, false teachers and prophets, and lying signs and wonders.
I know how difficult it would be for her to accept what I’m saying, because she would have to work through the emotional turmoil of coming to grips with the fact that her parents and many of her friends have encouraged involvement in so many movements that had serious problems (including the Toronto blessing). She does say that she won’t attend a Morningstar event, or that she thinks Todd Bentley is way off, but she doesn’t seem to think it’s a problem that Bill Johnson actively supports and promotes both of those guys.
Anyway, this whole thing has been heartbreaking. Absolutely heartbreaking. I’ve been burdened to pray for her for quite some time now, and that burden remains. I truly believe that God is going to set her free from whatever influence is pushing her in this direction, but I don’t know how long it will take. All I can do is pray and continue to be a good friend. I can’t talk about Bethel anymore because it goes nowhere and only drives a wedge between us. It’s all very sad.
In any case, I’m thankful for this blog and others like it for posting stories of people coming out of these movements. These stories have given me hope, and helped me shape my prayers for her.
JNG, sorry for the delay in approving your comment. Oh, my heart goes out to you. Many of us are experiencing separations from those we love that were not seen beforehand and for various reasons. I pray the Lord brings your friend to the truth quickly, that when she arrives at Bethel the blinders will come off and she will see the truth.
JNG I just said a prayer for you and your friend. I hope this experience will open her eyes about the false teachings going on at bethel.
Thanks so much for your prayers and encouragement! The Lord has been teaching me recently to pray with expectancy, not because He has to do what we ask, but because He is a good and gracious Father, and always acts in our best interests!
All the best,
I too have had raised eyebrows about some things that just dont seem right in my ex-home church group. They are using Bethel leadership courses. I cannot deny the healings I have seen and actually have had a fair share of success with too, I do believe the Lord is healing people through us. Whats funny about these groups is they dont preach on anything except Gods goodness and the miracles. I never hear about repentance or any other doctrines. No life application of the Bible and no real Bible study.
So, if people are “healed”, yet there is no true gospel or edification for believers, what is the end result. Spend some time in the word and this environment will become much more clear.
Hey M’kayla. I was wondering when you came out of the movement did you ever go through some rocky times with your relationship with God? I’m having one of those days where I find myself questioning if God loves me still and if I am still saved.
Oh yes. But remember, that God would not have led you out unless you were truly His! He is faithful to forgive and restore us to a right standing with Him upon our repentance. Search the scriptures for these truths and don’t let go!
Praying for you today! 🙂
Hey sister!!! I am soo glad I found your blog!!! I have gone through an experience all too similar to yours.. and I can’t help but say how interesting it is that you said this –> “I have to tell you that now I am free, I feel so much freedom and joy and I realize I used to feel this way. I no longer have that oppressive, something is always wrong, need to “intercede” and battle in the spirit feeling. I no longer experience that “other voice” or that strange and uncomfortable presence over me.” – I was dealing with this same problem whenever I became mixed up in those teachings. At first I thought I was opperating out of freedom and having a great ‘prophetic’ experience… but then I would keep ‘hearing’ that voice you were talking about.. and it wasn’t Jesus!! I wanted to believe it was.. but something was soo off about it! It’s like it was trying to mimic what Jesus would say and do.. but it wasn’t Him! And I noticed that during this time.. I was lead away from the Word big time.. It made the Bible seem like it wasn’t efficient enough.. like it wasn’t ‘loving’ enough..
I was going to attend Bethel School of Worship.. after all, it was a great friend of mine who had went to that school that had taught me all that he had learned.. but when I realized I only had a limited amount of time before I had to pay an expensive deposit just to go there.. I began to turn to Jesus to really make sure this was the right thing. I immediately was lead to verse after verse about false prophets.. the main verse He lead me to was Matthew 24:11 and Mark 13:14.. over and over He would lead me to these verses. I had been so vulnerable up to that point.. me being at the young age of 20.. I am passionate about Jesus.. and I just want to be apart of what He is doing!! But I was swept up in something else.. by the sacrilegious object that causes desecration. After I discovered the TRUTH.. I felt a great sense of freedom.. although I was quite bitter and felt like I couldn’t trust many people or ministries anymore. Anyways, I have made a vow that I will ONLY stick to the TRUTH. The TRUTH that sets you free. The truth that opens the eyes of the blind. JESUS.. and the WORD.. The WORD IS JESUS. And anything that strays you away from the Word is NOT Jesus. It is Satan! I just thought I would share my testimony with you and I would greatly appreciate if you could shoot me a comment back!! Blessings!!!! Love, your sister in Christ, Ally.
Greetings and Blessings Ally!
The Lord is so faithful toward us, so good and kind. He is not the one who leaves our side, it is us leaving His in the pursuit of things that sound good, that sound like Him. This is a road paved with pride, because when we get down to it all that effort was based on OUR gifts, OUR ministry, OUR time, OUR worship – far removed from the things that belong to the Lord.
Keep in the word and the Holy Spirit will continue to lead you into truth. As you continue you will see more and more lies and false teachings exposed.
Praise the Lord, our Redeemer, who never leaves or forsakes His own. I am glad that you were counted among them! Thanks for sharing!
Interesting isn’t it that so many bizarre practices and promotion of weird manifestations have a trail that somehow leads to Bethel Church in Redding CA!
Thank toy for sharing your story. I look forward to reading more. I did not get involved in the prophetic but I wanted to. I remember praying for the gift of interpretation. I knew it was dangerous to prophesy if it wasn’t a true gift. I yearned being one of the ladies who would grab the mic and speak into the lives of the saints. I now am grateful to know that God kept me from myself.
HI. Yes, I do believe God will allow us to go as far as we want. It is still amazing how He pulled me back to Him. We already had these gifts that we “prayed for”. We just didn’t understand the truth in how they were used – and how could we – being in the wrong environments. Life is much more peaceful now that I don’t have to come up with a word for that mic! Gifts are from God and used in accordance to His will! Yay!
I am a Catholic and experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit i 1976. I was born in another country buthave been here in the US since 1971. From my own life experience with my faith journey I am blessed to see the faithfulness of God. Each experience and the fruit it bears is what I look at. If it brings be closer to God and the fruit in my life is the Fruit of the Holy Spirit I thank the Father for the experience. I also have learned many lessons on my journey of faith. Praying for the gift of Discrnment as I walk this journey back to the Father through Jesus by the leading of the Holy Spirit is what I see is the way the Lord is showing me. I understand how people can be hurt through ministries but we have such an awesome God who is able to guide us to all truth as we seek Him with ALL our being!!! Allowing God to be God and NOT judging hearts is very important. Let us worship our God and be forever grateful that He sent us Jesus to save each one of us and that includes all people we have a problem with. Let us ask the Father to bless those whom we think are not on the path we think they need to be on. Let us allow God to be the judge and let us be the Father’s Children.
Savi, the theology of Christianity is far different from that of Catholicism. Christ alone is the savior, the risen son of the most high God. He did not share this place with Mary, who was His mother, and not a co-redeemer. so, when you say you are a Catholic, you are aligning yourself with a teaching and a religion that has nothing to do with the Lord God.
We are told in the bible to be aware of false teachers and a teaching other than the true gospel of Jesus Christ. When we expose them, we are doing the true work of ministry, in being obedient. We are not judging hearts, but judging doctrine. there is a clear difference. however, a person who insists on following other doctrine and false teachers is not a true follower of Christ. The Lord is clear in His commands on these things. a person who is not following Him will never have the leading of the Holy Spirit, either.
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Ok I don’t even know where to begin and let me assure you I know almost nothing of what any of you spiritually educated folks do. However, that being said I have some big concerns and hope for some help…
I have had no real relationship with God or Jesus. Raised with many different churches, the last of which was Mormon and honestly I was so young that I pretty much only picked up on scary “God is watching you stuff” or in the Mormon church that they seemed to have nice families I was envious of having come from chaos and abuse.
Recently I have been very ill and unable to find the source. It has led me to some serious prayer and basically in my innocence of not knowing how to pray I literally have asked God to reveal himself to me and to please make it clear since I am a pea brain about this stuff. I swear within days I meet a man through my husband that aligns with Prayer Rooms and has an exceptional character, integrity, marriage, energy, ability to handle stress and is so loving and healthy non judgmental etc. He knows many people associated Bethel and does work that sounds a lot like what is being discussed here. Then I find out my cousin who is the ONLY family member I highly respect and who has deep character has gone from a passive relationship with religion to living a much deeper one now through alignment with a church in Arizona that is somehow associated with Bethel. Then a dear personal friend who never spoke of her relationship with Jesus to me but did once I started to ask some questions and she spoke about a loving God, healing through the Holy Spirit, need for making a real adult decision to be baptized and about deliverance work she is just starting to learn to do. She has never heard of Bethel or any of the leaders but took me to meet a couple who she thought could be of help to me. They are not in complete agreement with Bethel and do not attend a church regularly but study the bible and are learning SOZO work. I felt like this is now 4 people who have popped up ALL somehow connected to Bethel or an affiliate church in Vacaville and I sure felt like this meant my prayers were clearly answered. Now I am just feeling sick. How can a new believer or a new person poking her head up to learn about God and Christ pray and have this happen? It seems unfair and I feel deeply confused right now. Is everything there “bad” or do you have suggestions for what to study or where to turn?
I appreciate ANY response. Thanks!
Rebecca, no, ther is no good coming from Bethel, or the healing rooms, or, unfortunately, most of the well known preachers of today.
You said you had no real relationship with the Lord God, yet you cried out for him to reveal himself to you. Dear one, let me warn you that Satan is very happy to answer desperate cries from the unlearned. to know God, we must repent of our sin and acknowledge Christ, the Son of God as Savior. yes, this can be a prayer, but it must also be lived out in turning away from our past lives and living for God thru knowledge of the scriptures.
These people whom you have met do not follow the Lord. Sure, they come in His name, claim His healing power, and speak of love. They may seem kind and considerate, but what they know is a counterfeit jesus, as Christ told us others would come in His name and that many will be deceived. Either they were saved and have been caught up in false teaching, or were never saved to begin with. I can’t tell you how dangerous it will be for you, if you choose to side up with them. It does not matter that this seems to be coming together for the good. It is not, it is for your destruction, and these false teachers are gaining followers all the time. so please turn away and read the bible, ask the Lord to teach you, and any questions you can ask and I will help you and give you scriptures for reference.
“Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” (Matthew 11:18-30 NIV)
Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me will never go hungry, and He who believes in Me will never be thirsty.” (John 6:35 NIV)
When Jesus spoke again to the people, He said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” (John 8:12 NIV)
The answers you are seeking are in the Word of God; and if you ask Him, He will teach you. You aren’t alone in feeling confused and frustrated. BUT, if you come to Jesus in His Word and tune out the other noise going on around you; you will find peace, real food and drink, and great light. Praying for you…
I appreciate the speed in which you answered me! I am definitely heeding what I am hearing. I am alarmed or saddened I guess that an innocent person can not hit a spiritual or emotional low in life and call out safely. That bothers me that I can call out and pray for the Holy Spirit and turn from sin and pray in the name of Jesus Christ but still something evil can come through so powerfully. I don’t in any way mean any disrespect I am simply baffled and literally brought to tears that I feel so powerless or am able to be so manipulated so I do not have a clue what to trust or how to learn.
I appreciate that you all seem to really understand the bible. I sit with it and feel like I need a translator lol! I don’t understand and am wondering if there is a good helpful book to go along with it. This is all foreign to me and I don’t want to put this all to the side because I fear doing this wrong. I want to learn and I want to develop my relationship with the real Jesus.
Is healing possible? I was under the impression that Jesus healed and cast out evil spirit or energies which cause illness. I am not turning to Jesus just to heal but it was my hope that I had gotten this ill because I wasn’t living a Christ life and that the Drs have thus far been powerless because I needed spiritual help. Being ill was Gods way maybe of showing me how far lost I had become…
So sorry for my confusion on a board where you all seem to know what I don’t yet comprehend but I am attracted to what you all say.
I truly appreciate your work, your time taken to answer my post yesterday and how unselfishly you are working to help people!
Rebecca, we learn the word of God through the power of the Holy Spirit. You have repented for being a sinner and found a new life in Christ. Now, it is simply a matter of growing by the Lord’s will and grace. And be assured, YOU WILL GROW! 🙂
1 Corinthians 1:18For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
I often refer people here to read a few chapters in the book of John to understand the role of the Holy Spirit in our lives. God is the Father, the Creator, Christ is His Son who suffered and died for our sins, and then rose again so that we could have a relationship with God thru Him. Christ taught His disciples of the Holy Spirit who would be with them after He left the world. Through the Holy Spirit, who is Christ, who is God we have not been left alone. Read these chapters, slowly, several times over during the next few days or so, asking the Lord to speak to you through His word. John 14, 15, 16. Many of us who have followed false teachers have been taught things about God and especially the Holy Spirit that simply are not true. These chapters in John will help clear the wrong thinking toward Him in your mind.
Rebecca, healing is always possible, because God is our healer. However, it is not always His will to heal us. It is more important that we know Christ through our sufferings than it is for us to be healed in the physical sense, for the result of this is spiritual healing. I know that these men and women who claim the will of God is for all to be healed sound very convincing. It rocks our world when we find we are not healed. We tend to think there is something wrong with us, that we have committed some grievous sin, or that we are sick because of a curse…they give all kinds of reasons for our illness or disease and you know what? – – they are all LIES – and they set people up to chase after their healing which makes the healing an idol in the eyes of our Lord.
I want to point out that many people, followers, disciples, etc. in the New Testament were sick. Why? Because they and we are human and are still subject to human ways, illness, disease, heartbreaks, disappointments and death.
Christ came and healed the sick and raised the dead because the Jewish people knew only God could do these things. Still, after having seen these miracles, many rejected Him as Savior. Seek God from where you are at, in your confusion, in your unrest and let Him show you through His word and His power who He is. That in of itself is a miracle. We will walk side by side with Him one day, where there will be no more death and no more disease!
I only know the things the Lord has revealed to me though the purpose of study and prayer. Rebecca, I had to take time to focus my mind toward Him when I first came out of the false teaching/healing/prophetic that I was involved with. I know what you are going through. It WAS a battle, but one that was won by Christ. Just cling to Him. A good concordance will also be helpful to you as you study. We are here to help you. Look on my side bar for writing that I have done on these areas, esp the articles Refuting IAHR and on healing, Bethel – Bill Johnson, Cal Pierce, etc.
So, for now, my friend, start with those Chapters in John and be blessed. I will pray for you.
Thank you so much to all of you who have responded and for the time, the care and the prayers. I am reading John and looking forward to what comes next. 🙂
You made me smile, Rebecca!!! 🙂 🙂 🙂
Patience is a fruit of the Spirit of God (Galatians 5:22). No one is more patient with us in all our confusions and mistakes than He is. Try to be patient with yourself as you let the LORD teach you through His Word. Remember that in this amazing book that we call The Bible, God put enough lessons to last us our entire lifetimes. We NEVER run out of things that we learn through His Word. He doesn’t expect you to get it all in the first pass. I also believe that in our eternal walks with Him we will always find Him fascinating and always have new things to learn about Him. Trust Him like a little child. I am happiest when I come to Him with that frame of mind.
So slow down and enjoy the Word of God for the feast it is. You have eternity….literally.
And Jesus will never leave you, for He is Faithful and True.
Rebecca, thank YOU for sharing your story. Personally, it helps me see that my own struggles and pains have been and are shared by others. But, as M’kayla said, there is a day coming when the struggles will all be put behind us. He will wipe the tears from all of our eyes.
God bless you, M’kayla, for this blog.
I’m one of your Canadian readers, and my own story is somewhat similar to what many of you have experienced. It’s long and complicated, but I will try to keep it as simple as possible.
I guess you could say it began when I was a child, and I used to see people speaking in tongues, crying, being ‘slain in the Spirit’ and shaking like they had severe Parkinson’s disease in my Pentecostal church on a fairly regular basis during worship time. As a result, I never questioned this, and grew up with the belief that this was a very normal, very healthy part of the personal relationship between you and Jesus Christ, through the Holy Spirit. Even when I became older and began to question the rest of my faith (and found that, through the testing of the Bible, it was true), I did not question this. I never thought to question it.
This was to my folly.
Fast-forward to my youth group years, where we learned, “we are sinners, God hates sin but loved us enough to give us His Son as a sacrifice to pay for our sin, and that we can be reconciled to God if we repent and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior over our lives.”, which is all good and true. However, we were also taught (both verbally and non-verbally) that doubt was from the Devil, and that if you had any doubts there was something seriously wrong between you and God, perhaps some sin you have not repented of. Furthermore, whatever you do, don’t question if you do have doubts! There was the odd time when we did get a sermon where someone would say “Test these words by the Scriptures. Don’t just take us at our words”, but most of us being teens, either we didn’t know what questions to ask or we were just too lazy to put in the effort to test what we were being taught, to our folly. After all, if people were being ‘slain in the Spirit’ during the altar call, then God’s Presence had to be there, which mean everything was good and true, right? I was one of the latter groups, and trust me when I say this; I am paying the consequences of not following the Bible’s instructions of testing all things properly. I have repented of this, and God has forgiven me, but it’ll be a LONG TIME before I ever sort through all the deception I was fed, bit by bit. Regardless, for years I gauged my own relationship with God by my own spiritual encounters I had during these worship services.
I ended up leaving that youth group for reasons not having to do with the above, and went to a different group that, for three years, showed me how to study the Scriptures more thoroughly, but wasn’t without its flaws either (being a big fan of Mark Driscoll and his teachings and years later becoming a member of the Willow Creek Association). The only reason I left that church was because the Young Adult group eventually disintegrated due to the fact that the YA leader had to step down due to personal reasons (not bad ones). I then started going to a nondenominational church that was basically the same as the first group I was a part of, but even more so, and with none of the flaws that caused me to leave the first group. I would have settled in there comfortably, and indeed I did for about a year, but there was a nudging in my spirit that something was not right. It all came to a head this May.
Bit of background: When I was 18, I foolishly got into a romantic relationship with a non-believer for four months. All this time, God was telling me through His word to leave him (“Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?” 2 Corinthians 6:14), and my parents also did not like the relationship. In the end, I did obey God and ended the relationship, though I unfortunately had to break the boy’s heart in the process. After that, I guess I kind of got angry with God a bit, and that was when I started testing what I thought was true by His Word. I’ve repented now for being angry, but I still hadn’t test the ‘slaying in the Spirit’ in my church, and I was scared to trust Him for a bit, for fear of having my heart broken again (although, really, it was my own stupidity and pride that started that particular mess in the first place).
Fast-forward to November of last year. I am taught contemplative prayer by a lady in the youth group (where Psalms 46:10 was quoted and taken out of context) AND in a Bible Study where we covered a book by Craig Groeschel (should have been my first big red flag), and since I don’t ‘feel’ close to God, I try it. Both times the woman is preaching, I am ‘slain in the Spirit’ and feel so happy, because now I know for sure that God must have forgiven me for my blunder with my first romantic relationship! Things seem to be going better than ever spiritually, and I hardly even notice that when I read the Bible, the words don’t seem to have an impact anymore, or that I was hardly witnessing to others anymore. I felt like I had to be in the ‘spirit’ of God all the time, that I must ‘wage battle in the Spirit’.
February rolled around. I met this guy, who for sake of clarity I will call Cowboy Disciple (or CD). Cowboy Disciple is very nice, likes me a lot and, best of all, has a very strong, Word-grounded, DISCERNING, practical, down-to-Earth, faith-based relationship with Jesus Christ, much like the one that my parents and grandparents have. He’s not perfect, but he has most of the qualities I like in a man. I started to fall in love with him. He started to fall in love with me. A month and a half after we met, we started a long-distance relationship (he was working out-of-town at the time), and we both wished to have a Christ-centered, pure relationship. Miraculously, my parents approved of him. All seemed grand, or so it appears…
Suddenly, out of nowhere, during a young adults worship service (you know where this is going, don’t you?), the ‘Holy Spirit’ that spoke to me during my contemplative prayer sessions tells me to leave the relationship. I was very confused, then scared, fearing that if I disobeyed that I was sinning against God, one whom I loved, and would therefore be sent to hell. Then (Thank God, who even after all of this was still trying to bring me out of the deception!), I tested what God had to say about relationships in His Word (the first time I’ve ever truly tested something in my life) and found that, since this wasn’t a case of being unequally yoked or a case of sin in the relationship, that my relationship with CD did not contradict God’s Word. So why was the ‘feeling’ that God was asking me to leave not going away, when there seemed to be no evidence that I should end the relationship in God’s Word? I was confused, scared, and yes, a bit angry as well. I began to wonder if what I was hearing was really coming from God, but was too scared to rebuke the spirit, in case it was God. This dragged on for almost two agonizing months.
Finally, things came to a head on the night of May 8, where, in a desperate attempt to discern God’s Will for my relationship with CD, I went into a state of meditation using contemplative prayer, hoping to hear the ‘voice’ of the ‘Holy Spirit’.
DON’T EVER DO THIS. SERIOUSLY, DON’T.
It was the WORST spiritual attack of my entire life. I have never experienced anything like it before, and never want to experience anything like it EVER AGAIN. I was rolling around in bed, my legs twitching, feeling like there was a strange fire in my limbs that was tearing into my stomach and chest. All along, I could hear a voice in my head, a voice I crazily thought was the Holy Spirit, stating that it would not leave until I left CD, that this torment would continue, and then I heard other voices trying to make me state that I hated God. It was a full-blown anxiety attack, like the kind people who practice contemplative prayer and Kundalini sometimes experience. It rolled on and on for the entire night.
I almost did leave CD. Almost. I called him up and everything. Fortunately I just said I wanted some time to think about a few things, and him not to talk to me for a week. It left then, and I was able to sleep for two hours after that. Still terrified by the night’s events, I fled to my Mom’s bedroom and told her everything that happened.
THANK GOD for discerning people like my Mom, who knew instantly that there was no way that was of God, and that what I had experienced was a demonic attack. Straight away she said to call CD and explain to him what happened, and that we were going over to the one pastor in the church we knew was still Biblically-grounded as soon as I finished calling. I did call, and CD quickly forgave me for scaring him (something else I praise God for). When we got to the church the pastor prayed over me, and though she didn’t know about Kundalini either, showed me several passages of the Bible I could turn to if faced with that again. Though I still struggled off and on for another two weeks, I finally prayed that, unless God showed me strictly from His Word why CD and I should break up, I would stay with the relationship. Within several hours of making that decision, God used me to witness to someone (my coworker) with the full version of the Gospel for the first time in a year. Praise God! 😀
However, it wasn’t quite over yet. I was still wondering and questioning what had happened to me back in May, and in mid-July I stumbled on a video on Youtube showing a “GLORY CLOUD AT BETHEL!!!!!!!1!1!” Jesus Culture worship songs were very popular at my YA group, and knowing that this group was from Bethel Church in CA, I checked it out. I thought it rather strange, and wondered why God would appear in gold dust, when, near the end of the video, Bill Johnson began to speak.
A thought rolled through my head. All I can say is that it must have been from the REAL, TRUE, WONDERFUL HOLY SPIRIT, the one that I had been seeking for all of my life, the one who had been in God’s Holy Word but I never fully realized it until then:
“That man is lounging across the pulpit like a fat, pompous cat! If that was truly the presence of the Lord, nobody in that building would be able to stay standing. They would all be on their faces, out of FEAR and REVERENCE for the Lord.”
I woke up.
Instantly, I started searching out this Bill Johnson guy, wondering who he was, what he stood for. That was when I stumbled onto your blog, M’Kayla. I thank God for it, and for your ministry. I never knew about the ‘false christ’ or the ‘false gospel’ until then. I have learned so much over the last few months, not just from this blog, but from other sources as well. I have cried out to God and have repented for all of the sin that I have done during that time. I have repented of my anger, and have learned to trust in Him, that He will not break my heart needlessly. CD and I are still together, and, God willing, are hoping to marry within the next few years. I have turned away from contemplative prayer and its ilk; I have not practiced these things since May. I now test EVERYTHING with the Word of God. If I can’t find it in there, I want no part of it. God alone was the one who opened my eyes and freed me from what I was becoming, and He used His Word and blogs like M’Kayla’s Korner and Lighthouse Trails to do it. To HIM be the glory and the praise, forever and ever into everlasting, AMEN!
What is more, God has also opened up the eyes of CD and my parents concerning these issues as well, and is working now on my grandparents. God is so good; though we do not deserve His mercy and grace, He gives it to us anyways.
The moral of the story: Test ALL THINGS by HIS Word. Trust God. Seek Him with all your heart, and you will find Him, but see Him through His Word, not through methods of contemplative prayer and other such works-based nonsense, and keep alert in these final days.
God’s blessings again for all of you at M’Kayla’s Korner!
– A 20-year-old reader from Canada
P.S. If you could pray for my younger sister, who is still blind to all of this, and still attends the third YA group, I would really appreciate it.
P.P.S Sorry this was so long, I tried to simplify it as much as possible. Maybe this will help wake somebody else who is in the same situation up. Only He knows, I guess.
Canadian Reader, welcome to my blog. Thank you very much for sharing your situation. Praise God that He showed you the error and that you are forgiven and restored unto Him!!! He will continue to unravel the spiritual mess and bring you to a place of understanding and peace, which sounds to me is already underway. I wish and pray for you complete healing through our Lord and that He will equip you for every good work for the plan He has laid out for you, close to Him, His will and His ways.
Feel free to comment anytime, ask questions, etc. It does help others too. 🙂
Hi there – I have read this and other comment threads on this blog – interesting!! Your “About Commenting Page states, “I do very much still believe in the power of God and the spiritual gifts”. Could you please amplify this statement? Specifically, do you believe in the speaking in tongues teaching as it manifest during the Azusa Street Pentecostal revival and as since practiced in the pentecostal movement (i.e. pre- ‘Toronto blessing’ )? Also the other manifestations of the Spritual Gifts – such as words of knowledge, wisdom, prophesy, etc?
My beliefs in this area are stated throughout the blog, in the articles and in the comments. No, I do not believe in the speaking of tongues as mindless babble that it has become. I believe in speaking of tongues to preach the gospel as noted in the book of Acts, those involved each heard the gospel message in their own language. I did a bit of study on spiritual gifts and invite you to do the same. I don’t regard the acts of men, regardless of their claims, notoriety or fame. I go to the word of God for truth.
I believe God works thru true believers, not trumped up power hungry false teachers and prophets who use His name for their personal gain. There is a difference.
Mkayla today there are too many self procaimed prophets in the church today. Instead of using their so called gift to bless people they are using it to enrich thier personal statis. They fly around in jets, Sell millions of books, Live in mansions, and have seven figure salarys yet jesus rode around on a donkey and didnt have any where to lay his head. Some of these so called prophets are under the influence of familar spirits. I have been used many times in the gifts of the spirit but it was always to eddify the body of Christ It never was for personal gain. It tires me to see how the church is swollowing up and chasing after these false prophets. When I went to the assembly of God church we were all caught up in the spirt of laughter. At first it seemed so real. A MERRY HEART DOES GOOD LIKE A MEDICINE> Rodney Howard Brown came to our church. He had a look like Jack benny. The more he looked the more we laughted but now that I think of it where was Jesus in all of that. It did get out of hand and it seemed like we were trying to make it happen. How do you gage if what you are experienceing is from the lord. IN the church everything must be done in decency and in order. The word of God says so. No God doesnt make you bark like a dog or hiss like a snake. Creation was changed forever when adam and eve sinned. What will be the next big move of God. Could it be the rapture are we ready and like the five wise virgins with oil in our lamps so when the trump sounds we can go out to meet him. When I received the baptism in the holy ghost I really wanted it. But after a year or so of seeking it and not receiving it with the evidence of speaking in tounges I sort of gave up. One day a former coal miner pastor from West virgina challenged that who ever wanted it could come up and receive it. So giving God the bennefit of the doubt I went up. Will I received it and for me it was magnificent. But my personal experences are mine only and I cant build a whole doctrine around it.for someone else. I have been used many times in the gift of tounges and interpretation and prophecy in a corprate setting. And though I speak with the tongues of men and angels and have not charity I am become as sunding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. Ive seen three differnt visions of Christ. But if I dont have the word of truth in me it means nothing. Ive Witnessed to hundreds of people in nursing homes. Prayed with a whole lot of people but if I dont walk the walk, it means absolutely nothing. So what Im saying dont experience the things of God threw someone else in toronto or bronsville or orlando, experence them threw the Spirit of the Lord for your self. Thanks!
makayla I totally agree with you on your stance of tongues. It is not mindless babel and it is a language that if you were being used in the gifts of the spirit it would bless that person if they were in your midst from anorther country. and spoke in anorther language just like in the book of acts. The bible says that if their is no interpreter pray that you will interpret it or shut up. I like your no nonsence attitude to the things of god. My experince on this topic is this. One time god used me in the gifts, I interrpreted it and some one in the audience that was from france said that the tongue I spoke in was her tongue. I t was french. The interpretation which was english matched the tongue I spoke in perfectly which was in french. Now I thought nothing of it and I didnt become puffed up because I dont carry a suit case with the words gifts on it. I guess what I am saying I dont posses nothing but I am just being used in it. Anorther time a dear lady whose husband is a word of faith pastor and they just built a five million dollar church was in Kamart. I had a word for her. Little old me to speak a word in Kmart to her took alot of courage. But I obayed right in the middle of Kamart just a few words but after it was over tears was streaming down her face. Now I can speak in tongues in my payer language but for me it usually happens when there is not words in english to express how I feel and the holy spirit interceeds through me. I am just speaking from my expierence. The only qualification to be use by god is to be born again. This is your blog and I appreciate the chance and such a privleage to be allowed to share some of my experinces because I have been on other websites posting comments and have been drawn in to radical debates. You always have such great wisdom and I value it. Oh by the way according to the myan calander the end of the world will happen today but they couldnt figure out when their own demise would happen.
Tracy, I thank you for your courage and willingness to share and be open with the things you are learning!
Now, I have a question for you to ponder a bit. Where do you find evidence of tongues/prayer language in the bible?
Thanks again. 🙂
I have only two scripture> I cor 14 15. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the undrstanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. MK 16 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues.
Personally, I leave the door open for great variety in the way we are both used by/helped by God. You hit on the first, and most important, test of all things…does it hold up to the Word of God or not? If not, no matter how “right” it may seem, it belongs in the spiritual trash heap. We do not want to open ourselves up to “familiar spirits” by acting beyond what God’s Word tells us to.
I also believe that the Holy Spirit convicts us deeply inside when we are acting within God’s will. I want to say this carefully and hope that you will listen to it carefully. I don’t care how many people approach you telling you that they know something is “of God” because they have “great peace/joy/whatever” about it. You have the anointing that you need to teach you the truth of all things (see 1 John); meaning that you have the Holy Spirit in you to teach you whether things are of God or not. He will NEVER violate His Holy Word. That is our absolute. For instance, I know that “drunk in the spirit” is not of God; because the Bible states over and over that self-control is a friut of the Spirit and that we are to be “sober” and “vigilant”. God will not violate His Word; so He will not illicite some behavior in us that violates His Word.
I also do not believe that any of us knows how to really pray to a Holy God; and, therefore, however you are praying in your personal prayer life (with tears, song, laughter, deeply personal words, cries of pain, silent hope, WHATEVER…yes, including tongues), if you are engaging your heart and your brain and coming in humility in the name of Jesus Christ, then God is listening. Public prayer is a different story, and God has provided some very clear guidelines for us….which I think you and M’Kayla both touched on.
Gifts of the Holy Spirit are being so grossly abused by self-seeking people that, I think, we all need to be sure to check and double check, pray about these things, and keep seeking God out in His Word on it (even Gideon tested God three times) ; but, in spite of all that abuse, God is faithful to His Word. I believe that I’ve also read M’Kayla telling people to pray in repentance that God will replace and false teaching or understanding with the truth. This is a really good idea for any of us who have sat under false teachers. I have also known, and relied upon, praying for God’s protection against false teachings and signs and wonders and gifts. If it isn’t of Him, I don’t want it. That is a heart issue.
Here is anorther reference:Jude 20:But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith,praying in the Holyghost.
Everyone, I am going to suspend the TONGUES discussion on this thread because I would like to begin a new post for it. Once I get it up there I would appreciate your feedback. So, at this point hold onto your TONGUES comments. 🙂
Thank you so very much!
Makayla I read your blog on the healing room I guess I am behind times untill know I have never heard of it. I know that John Lake was as bad doctrinialy as they come. My question is this. Since you were envolved in it for so long was there any true healings that happed? I know that John Lake had some word of faith dogma am I right? And have you had some success in steering people away from the healing rooms? Also does rehma have anything to do with the healing rooms? Thanks>
Tracy, there was a woman who I prayed for early on and I truly thought she had been healed. But some time passed and she returned for other things going on, including some emotional troubles that I can’t quite remember the details. The point is, would God partly heal a person? And what happens to our minds when we continuously bombard it with false teaching and trumped up, man made, demonically inspired prayer methods? John 5:14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, “Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you.”
Rhema isn’t a part of the healing rooms, unless they have developed their own by now. The driving force in what they share is the doctrine – word of faith, prosperity, etc. Lies upon lies.
The idea behind the healing rooms is the effort to convince Christians that it is God’s will to heal everyone because healing is in the atonement, for one. And another is to convince them they are in need of healing! And believe me, they are quite successful in that deceit. They diminish the cross, the work of Christ, for to them, He is not enough. We need prayer and deliverance despite what He did. Bill Johnson also believes we can be like Christ in the way that He was the perfect example of what one man can do, committed to God. If you have an illness and go into a healing room session they will go to great lengths to find the cause – unconfessed sin, sin of ancestors, word curses, a curse of a witch – someone some where is responsible and they believe the root must be found and destroyed before the person can be free. They also believe that healing is a process and your condition may require additional visits until the actual healing manifests. Does this sound at all like the truth of the word of God? No. Ah, but they are great at taking a part of scripture and using it as proof, rather than to take the entire counsel of the word of God. So, healing is in the atonement, but complete healing will not take place until Christ comes and we are given new bodies. Jesus healed every one he touched, however, he didn’t touch everyone and so not everyone on the earth was healed during his ministry. Do you know how blind these people of the healing rooms are? Many of them ARE sick. They are overweight, wear glasses, hearing aids, suffer from different physical illness, and so on. How can they possibly believe what is not manifested in their own lives. And, if you get sick, don’t let your prayer room team members know, because it isn’t good for business.
Makayla have I grown to see the gold that you posses. Even though I have went through great suffering god has brought me through. Today he has reminded me that the holy spirit that lives in me is there not for me to be stingy. I must not condemn any one because accually we are condeming ourself. And how do we do that , by sending someone up creek with out paddle. Jesus was called a wine biber. But he didnt turn water into a alcoholic beverage but turned it in to the very best fruit juice anyone has ever drank. When the father moved on him he didnt have to examine thier petigree. He reached out to them and met them right where they were. Weather that person is adulturous,gay, wof,religious when god moves, on us to go we must go and put our personal preferences and judgements or dogma behind and reach out and touch that person or even move in the gifts as god moves us to bless that person or church. The gift that is within us must be shared with the world. Jesus went everywhere and he moved in all nine gifts because he was God. But the holy spirit shares them with us. Im not saying we must roll on the floor or laugh out of our head but we must be free to move in the liberty of Christs.
I can do all things through Christ that strengthens me and I can go everywhere and not be second class but realize that the most high dwells in me and I have the power to set men free. When Jesus was in the boat on the sea a storm arose and the disiples began to be in terrior rightly so because a storm or tempest could happen almost anytime. He said ye of little faith and rebuked the storm. He wasnt telling them to rebuke the storm but dont panic hold on things will be fine. We are not little gods or any god but the one who resbuked the storm lives in us and that is why no matter what comes along or what situation we find ourself in we know one thing that we can do all thngs thru christ that strengthens us.
———————————————————————————————————————-DOES TITHE MAKE US RIGHT WITH GOD? Can we buy our way to approval with god. It seems that the word of faith doctrine believes it can. To answer this question we must go to the word of god. (Lk. 18:11-14) ) The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.(12) I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possss. (13) And the publican standng afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner, (14) I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. The prosperity doctrine preached to day is totally against the word of god. It is like the old time carausel that if when it was going around and around you tried to grab for the golden ring but you could never quite grab it because it is out of your reach. Oral Roberts I remember when he was on T.B.N. said that this farmer came to him and told him I believe it was at one of his meetings that I planted alot of seed this your and I got a bumper crop. Well Orals wheels started to turn and he thought if I plant a lot of seed I will get alot of return. Seed meaning (money). This is where he got his faith seed message. Will what happens if your crop gets ruined by hail or drought. Well Oral retired a multimillionair but it was on the backs of widows, and the poor and just a few rich. I dont beleive it is wrong at all to give to god but to promise something that is based on what a farmer says is purely wrong. I am so glad I found this blog. Have a prosperous Jesus New Year.
Hi there M’Kayla!
My name is Ellen and I found your site when I finally escaped the false charismatic movement. You really helped me. Still go to Twin Cities Fellowship here in the Minneapolis area and am doing just great. Finally have a place to put my faith…in all that Christ did. Everything is in faith. He did it all. When I get in trouble in my mind I “take my thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ.” Now I know what that means. I now understand what righteousness means. HIS righteousness has been imputed to me and God says to believe that. Everything that Christ did has been given to me and I am complete in Him. God said that His grace is sufficient for me. It is all Jesus. His perfect keeping of the law, His faith, His obedience, His sinless life, His suffering, His shed blood, His death, His victory over death. All of it done on my behalf. So no man can boast. All authority in heaven and earth has been given to Jesus and the powers and principalities have been defeated at the cross. If I don’t believe that I am calling God a liar and that is unbelief. Been reading all the Critical Issues Commentaries from Bob Deway. Excellent articles. I was raised in the Catholic Church and had alot of confusion from that. Been reading Richard Bennett’s articles on Berean Beacon website and that has sure helped with the catholic stuff. Also found a site from Spurgeon http://www.asermon.com/spurgeon/index.html. Just wonderful. I am now a full fledged Calvinist. Everything makes sense and I know what the gospel is. When I actually believed was like a million pound load was lifted off me. I am a sinner saved by grace through faith. That is it. In faith. Amazing that all those years where I participated, believed, and supported the falsehoods and the insanity of the charismatic movement, not once did anyone ever articulate to me what the gospel was. And I was biblically “illiterate”. I should have stayed in the Bible. The biggest thing that has helped me was to stop analyzing “them” and keep reading the Bible. I constantly read Hebrews, Galatians, Romans. There are no new apostles and no prophets. Hebrews 1:1-2 “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in times past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.” I used to be afraid of the signs and wonders things that are happening but it says in the Bible that there will be lying signs and wonders. It is from the devil. I just stay away from it all and there is no reason to be afraid. The blood of Jesus is my protection. My job is to come out from it all. The bible says it will happen and there will a great falling away from the truth and there will be many antichrists. There is no best life now. He saves His elect. Not everyone will be saved. There will be no endtime revival. We are promised eternal life. I am not cursed. Gal:3:13 “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us:” Anybody ever starts to talk about visions or angels or prophetic things or apostles or tithing or God talking to them or any of that stuff I just remember Hebrews1:1-2. I have so much peace. My body does not twitch anymore. I can sleep. No more fasting. No more tithing. No more meetings. No more thinking about demons all the time. No fear. I love it. The truth. And no more planting seeds.The Bible says the seed is the Word. His grace is sufficient for me and all that I need has been provided for me in Christ. God is faithful and I know for sure that He loves me so much because He sent His son to do it all for me. I got a free pass! My job is to believe. Of course I can’t run around and live a sinful life so I do the best I can. It is all by faith in Christ. The Lamb of God. My perfect sacrifice. He said it was finished! Even if I don’t feel like it I read the Bible every day. It is the righteousness of Christ that has been given to me and He took my sin and punishment. Only His blood can appease the wrath of God. God is so good. Finally I know for sure that I am saved. And I don’t have to try and be a pretend Christian manipulated by fear wondering what I have to do next so I don’t die and end up in hell. I can just be me again. So thankful for your blog.
Ellen, I am so thankful for your testimony here. Thank God for all that He has brought you out of and the truth you now walk in speaking right through you! The only thing I will add is to be careful over Calvinism. There are extremes there, and again, it is following the teachings of a man. Just keep studying and the Lord will bring you through. Wow. What a breath of fresh air!
Blessings and hugs! 🙂
M’kayla, your honesty was a shot of courage in my own exit from these deceptions. I relate to the feeling that you might die, when the truth of Scripture confronts your longstanding deceptions. I relate to the loneliness. You use words I haven’t heard anyone else use; words that are spot-on accurate. “When touched by another spirit…” You have helped me have the courage to write. My experiences are more with IHOPKC and the “awakenings” and “outpourings” of the past twenty years. I recently started to blog, too, in hopes that I can help minister freedom and hope to others who are caught in the trap. I likened the visitations of false spirits who masquerade as the Holy Spirit to sexual abuse, leaving one so smashed inside and unable to trust. Unable really to trust in one’s own ability to know whom to trust, even if one’s belief in God remains unshaken. How do I know who the real God is? But the Scripture leads us out of that dark labrynth into safety, security and peace. Thank you for sharing your story, and giving me the courage to share mine.
Praise God for you!
bcavete, I wonder if you know just how many need to read of your escape as well? I am following your blog. 🙂
Hi M’Kayla…I’m NEW to this. I unfortunately know about this because of my family who is DEEPLY involved right now (and for the last 10-15 years). I read another testimonial and they referenced you. I am really overwhelmed by this mess. There is SO much information to read and to understand about this. My problem right now is trying to figure out WHAT to say to my niece and nephew who have just moved to Redding and are planning to attend Bethel Cult in September. I am just asking for a little help before my head explodes 🙂 …I’m the weirdo who requested you as a friend on Facebook. I’m just a little desperate right now, and seeking help from someone who’s been there. I believe someone like YOU (who has experienced it all) can be my only real help. Can you help??? If so, you’ve got my email–or FB request. Thanks and blessings to you on speaking the truth!!
Hi Kelly. LOL! From one weirdo to another – soo funny!
Kelly, seriously, the very first thing you should do is REST from the information overload and just seek the Lord. Get quiet, get your bible (or yell, scream and cry first…) but take the time to rest. There is so much to take on. I went through that overload period hardly leaving my computer. But as time went on, the more I let the truth thru the word settle in me the more simple the truth seem to be, and the more glaring the deception.
I tell everyone to get into the proper perspective – – We speak the truth, the Holy Spirit reveals it to the person. It’s His responsibility!!! Wow. Load off! Another thing I want you to consider up front is that this deception is quite powerful. The people involved cannot see it and tho they speak of love, they are full of hatred. So when the times comes to speak and you are met with ugliness, do not despair, do not take it personally. I am telling you this to prepare you in the event they do not accept your words. This is what we see from family members and pastors alike. However, praise be to God that I have stories on my blog that people are coming out. So, it is not too late and God’s hand is still mighty to save!
I usually keep to the blog comments, but if you would like to e-mail, if it seems a bit to personal or painful, we can do that as well. So let me know your preference. A head’s up that I am working night shifts – 12 hour ones and so I may not respond right away, or you may get one in the middle of the night – my day. lol
Peace to you my sister. The Lord goes before us in this journey. I will help you in any way that I can. 🙂
M’Kayla…THANK YOU SO MUCH!
I am encouraged to hear that others are coming out of it. My family has been praying a lot that the Holy Spirit will show them the TRUTH. AND I DID indeed take a break today. It was too much. I just shut it down for a while. I think I’ll have some time before I have to say much though. I do completely understand that there is deception and there will be animosity or anger (I already know I’m of the “spirit of Jezebel” or have a “religious spirit”, or after all, I AM a “pharisee”–I can read too!) 😉 . However, I do know that keeping a “friendliness” isn’t more important than the souls of my loved ones. It’s not loving to just let them think it’s all good, but what to say is the problem. We have also been praying for major WISDOM. I know the Lord will give it to us!
I can’t tell you how much it means that you are willing to help. I probably have a few personal things to discuss if that’s okay. I don’t mind waiting. I’m not that needy—I have two kids I’m teaching and I should be doing other things (like laundry). I haven’t been able to read all the comments yet, but I DEFINITELY want to know more about how the other folks came out of the movement. Thanks so much again!!!
Hello Kelly, great to see you here.. I too have “come out”. the number 1 thing I would say to you is ground yourself in the word… the only one you can trust 100% to tell the ultimate Final real TRUTH is the Lord himself… in his word… you need no 3rd party go between… All we can do provide is experience based on what we have personally gone through… we are experts only to that end…
I realised very quickly that we had been lied too, & foundation & layer upon layer of error & expectation of agreement over many a long year had grown up inside.. to the point where, now, there are many things looking back that are inside out & back to front in my understanding… it left me & probably you too I’m guessing, in a tailspin of not quite knowing who & what to believe… so the only answer to that is to go back to the word…
this is a tough journey, when the questions come- there are not many in the River circles who are open to proper honest discussion… we found the very second, we gently pushed at an issue – the whole culture of honour thing fell apart- it certainly did not extend to those who voiced any level of disagreement… even in healthy debate “the power of agreement & being in unity teaching” is a huge rider in this movement..
please know I am standing with you & you have my prayers
Thank you so much Zazzy! I am praying and hoping that something will wake my sister and her family up from believing these lies. One question for you: HOW did you come out? What was it? Do you mind sharing your story? 🙂
Misfithome…I believe this is zazzy’s
You many also want check my sidebar for her new blog, rooftops and rafters!
Zazzy, “Hello Kelly, great to see you here.. I too have “come out”. the number 1 thing I would say to you is ground yourself in the word… the only one you can trust 100% to tell the ultimate Final real TRUTH is the Lord himself… in his word… you need no 3rd party go between.”
So glad you said this!
“See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us–even eternal life.
I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, THE ANOINTING YOU RECEIVED FROM HIM REMAINS IN YOU, AND YOU DO NOT NEED ANYONE TO TEACH YOU. But as His anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfiet–just as it has taught you, remain in Him.” (1 John 2:24-27)
Jesus Christ is the Word of God made flesh. We honor Him above all else by trusting in His Word above all teachings of men.
Misfithome, you have really good company in this struggle, even the Lord Jesus (as we are really doing nothing more than sharing in His sufferings).
God is shining His light through you. You don’t know ahead of time who is going to see this light and move toward it. Remember, though, it isn’t our work that brings people out of darkness, but God’s power acting through the person of Jesus Christ chiefly by His Word. So, as M’Kayla said, rest in the Word of God and let Him strengthen you now. Pray for them and do not give up hope, and remember that the patience of God is something that we cannot really grasp.
The peace that you have standing firmly in the Word of God will be a bigger testimony to them than anything you can say or do. Praying with you that God will deliver you family….
Thank YOU so much for your encouraging words! I have had a VERY heavy heart this past week; and I appreciate your strengthening words! Thank you also SO much for the prayers!
(moved by admin)
From Michelle – This may have been covered before, but I attend a church that is just getting into this false doctrine. I want to confront the pastor and try to attempt a pulling them back from falling completely off the cliff of deception. Is there hope? After reading so much information, I feel like there’s no hope for someone to turn back from this. They all run together, I did mention some things that I was having a problem with and after seeing the pastor experiencing conviction, after he spoke with those he confides in, I was responded to with an “I’ll pray about it.” Please give me some ideas, or has anyone else tried to confront this? Try to break down the walls of deception or just leave?
Michelle, I think you will find this same dilemma repeated many times here on my blog. It is one that I faced several times and the first two I had no one to help me know what to do. Yes, we do warn them, pray for them. If they don’t repent and turn, especially the pastor/leadership, then it is time to leave. Confronting is quite hard, we run the risk of rejection, which is hard to take, of losing friends, of being alone. But I will tell you that leaving a church that is teaching false doctrine and following false teachers and prophets is a tremendous blessing from the Lord. It is through His leading that we see the truth and that we even have the wisdom to help others see it, whether or not they do up front. I have learned more about the Lord out of the church than what I ever did inside one. God will not leave us alone. It is a hard walk, but one of great purpose.
The very strong liklihood, sadly is that a leadership who are into this, will not be able to hear truth from people who bring up a question or concern.. I think, based on my experience certainly, you have to come to the place of being reconciled to leave. this is probably they way it will have to be in the end… But, if you can & are able to talk to your leaders this should always be done… advice is to spend loads of time before God, build yourself up in truth, find out from sites like this & others all the info you can- research the specific issues particular to your situation so for example if your church is getting heavily into sozo or BSSM look at those in depth… if its the teaching side, check out the theology the roots of what is being taught etc.. .. in other words know your info…
Always always base everything you say & bring to the leaders from a place of truth in the scriptures.. this is essential…
try & follow the procedure outlined in matthew 18 as far as possible – (the fact that we couldnt even do that was a big indicator of falseness & unbiblical CONTROL)
ask gentle questions, rather than going in their with a list of this, this, this & this is WRONG… the objective being to open up a discussion…
we already know ahead of time that the general response will be one of defensive arrogance… so open the discussion, & let them reveal to you the depths of how entrenched they as leaders actually are – I found that this was helpful because at one point – we were accused of blaming our leaders for something they “hadn’t done yet” so in being fair they need to have opportunity to tell you where they are at without feeling that we are presuming things…
address the issues you see at hand, share your concerns about the root of the falseness (they may not realise the full extent of it themselves & may have been dazzled with the wow factor in the signs& wonders for example)
schedule a meeting where you can be sure of a face to face but ensure it wont be just you against a gang of 3
be fully prepared to be hurt, & shocked… our senior leader told us it was impossible for him to be deceived & that we had character, attitude issues etc…
be fully prepared to leave the church there & then if you need to– if you are not ready to do that – the discussion & the consequences of the fallout I suspect will be very difficult… we were told we needed to “get on board” with this renewal or be removed from any position of leadership/ responsibility – which would escalate into removal of church membership eventually for non compliance or “anti unity”… if you have already reconciled leaving or the possiblility of going you retain some control & will be less dominated or intimidated…
pray & remember Jesus came for Truth, died for Truth, Is the Truth & wants us to live by Truth….
standing with you
I do remember hearing one story (and it may be here somewhere) of a pastor actually listening to the concerns and turning away from the false teacher. Glorious. Most do not and that is the sad truth. I don’t know why that is, I would suppose it is quite hard to admit to a large group of followers who have trusted you for a long time that you have made an epic error. But, that is the point of humility and why we are referred to as a body, all having different parts and purposes. I think most all of us struggle with the need to be accepted. Speaking out against false teachers and prophets makes no one win a popularity contest. Even well meaning Christians have become starstruck so much so they no longer care for what is true. They just want to be in with the “in crowd” just like we learned in elementary school. They must have forgotten the warning posed by their loving mothers – if your friends wanted to jump off a cliff, would you follow too? Apparently so.
No one is above deception – Adam and Eve walked with God and knew Him face to face and yet they messed up. So do we all. How wonderful it would be if our warnings were heeded and listened to. How much more effective would we be to a dying world in its final moments of degradation? We may never know that answer. We have entered a time of great apostasy which will only worsen as time goes on. For me it is unimaginable the things that are about to come on us. Our comfort is that God will never leave us, and we have been so forewarned. And so we must cling to Him with all we have to the end; for there is the crown of life!
Here is a great testimony…..https://mkayla.wordpress.com/about/#comment-8338
Fabulous news… what an encouragement when we were just talking about this the other day…. All Glory to HIM who is able….
The passage I’ve written below is on my face book account and some has been sent with a link to what Lance Goodall of Christian Witness Ministries has written. It is to your discretion should you choose to share this article publicly, but kindly inform me when you do. [Jackie Alnor (with Jacob Prasch of Moriel Ministries) is one recipient to have it on her Face book page on Sunday 6 March] Thank you. L.J
“WORD-FAITH PANDEMIC. Here in cosmopolitan Singapore we have our fair share of ‘a different gospel’ running the gamut of local churches (Galatians 1:6-10). As a matter of fact I’ve even attended New Creation Church for two and a half years as part of an ecclesiastical study apart from serving. Whilst in the pews of a hyper grace seeker-sensitive church, I’ve heard the sounds of perversity from the horse’s mouth–Joseph Prince himself–and his minions twisting scripture that is sadly regurgitated by mindless shepherds to their sheep at home cell units. With the likes of Word-Faith proponents such as Matt Crouch, Richard Roberts, Kenneth Hagin, Judah Smith, Darlene Z etc. gracing the stage, imagine that after JP’s debut at Osteen’s Lakewood Church in 2011, a home cell leader could actually ask us, “Do you think its ok to adore Ps Prince?” No, that’s not the straw that broke the camel’s back. Imagine the superstitious embrace of the Eucharist and the anointing oil for the miraculous if not grotesque–should one heed their promptings that ply the crude and silly. What more then when the nation boasts of yet another heretic that has some 36,000 sheep under his watchful gaze–Kong Hee of City Harvest Church. Cho Yonggi, Benny Hinn and Phil Pringle are but the few that have hitched this wagon to only God knows where. Isn’t it amazing that God had vouchsafe for the worthless even though all nations before Him are as nothing, and they are counted by Him less than nothing and worthless (Isaiah 40:17)? Should USA be judged, she’s better off alphabetically. Should the scales fall from the eyes of the deluded, they will vomit the filth fed by these hireling shepherds that have crept in unawares to pollute every nook and cranny of the body of Christ. For that matter, Beyonce’s performance at Super Bowl 2013 can hardly differ depicting the deluded, be it the masses or a select few, that are ushered in rank and file, week in and week out to unwittingly channel in their alter ego plying the pulpit and yet be harnessed by deceit for merchandise. Madness. Or better yet the caption that says ‘Think–while its still legal!’ Never mind the gainsayers, should it baffle us when some make a defense of their pet heretic if only to confirm their delusion? Just get the full Monty out folks–before its way too late!” ~ Larry James, Singapore.
Rev. 22:12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. 16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.
The Fresh Prince – Destined To Ruin by Lance Goodall, CWM Ministries, 12/6/12 (Joseph) Prince is preaching a different Jesus, another gospel…and although he’s articulate, charismatic, convincing, and preaching ‘grace’; he is a blind leader of the blind, leading astray the unlearned and unstable. He is at best a false apostle, and at worst a conniving HERETIC! (2 Corinthians 11:12-15; 2 Peter 3:16).
I followed the cwm link. Once again God uses the rich, gorgeously groomed, and stunningly beautiful to take His message to the world. Oh wait, that’s not in the gospel…..
“Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
HE HAD NO BEAUTY OR MAJESTY TO ATTRACT US TO HIM,
NOTHING IN HIS APPEARANCE THAT WE SHOULD DESIRE HIM.
He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
LIKE ONE FROM WHOM MEN HIDE THEIR FACES
He was despised, and we esteemed Him not.” ( Isaiah 53: 1-3)
If we share in His sufferings, we will share in His glory when He appears….
My first red flag in the wof church was a copy of “Vogue” magazine sitting on the table in the prayer room. I kid you not.
Vogue. Now that is interesting.
Amazing how one may preach Jesus and miss Him entirely with a different gospel.
Larry, they really aren’t preaching Jesus. It’s the other jesus they know, the other gospel, and which to do so is to be accursed.
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
2 Corinthians 11:14 For if someone comes along and preaches another Jesus than the one we preached, or should you receive a different spirit from the one you received or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you are all too willing to listen.
Just give me a short, limping, poorly dressed foreign man with coke-bottle classes, a greasy, balding head, and missing teeth who lifts his hands gently in prayer and humbly, but steadfastly, reads the Word of God.
I’ll sit at that man’s feet all day long!
” I likened the visitations of false spirits who masquerade as the Holy Spirit to sexual abuse, leaving one so smashed inside and unable to trust. Unable really to trust in one’s own ability to know whom to trust, even if one’s belief in God remains unshaken. How do I know who the real God is? But the Scripture leads us out of that dark labrynth into safety, security and peace.”
Thank you. Thank you thank you THANK YOU. That is exactly what happened to me, and that is exactly what this is like, and even after almost a year I still struggle with this, and even my faith has been shaken a bit (though not destroyed). It’s good to see that I’m not alone in feeling like this. Thank God.
Canadian Reader, it is amazing what we can learn just one on one with the Lord and His word! I try to put things into the perspective that this is training time, because who knows what it is that we will be facing later on. And the study of the word will make us just that more prepared, especially if we find it taken away from us. The word says we are to count is as joy when we fall into various trials and such…another little nugget that we have not been taught within the confines of the church!
Hi Mkayla, I’m so glad I came across your blog as I have recently found myself in the same position of starting to question my own beliefs and more importantly what I always believed to be right and true specifically the charismatic movement. I first found the Lord in a Pentecostal Church which was part of a school that I went to and since having gotten married and moved a bit far from there I joined what I now know to be a hyper-charismatic church, my husband went to church with me one Sunday and promptly proceeded to walk out halfway during praise and worship which as you can imagine at the time I didn’t take very kindly to and when we left, he forbid me to go back to that church. This enraged me because “how he dare he tell me what to do”, but looking back I realize now he could see what I couldn’t see and what made it worse was he wasn’t a Christian at the time. When somebody who is not saved can see what’s wrong with a church and you as a Christian can’t see it, that’s concerning. I like to believe that The Lord used my husband, knowing that He wasn’t gonna get through to me, I wasn’t gonna hear Him, He obviously decided it would be better to use my husband to pull me out and forbid me to go back. And in that way, I was taken away from the influence and put more in a position where I could have my eyes opened to reality.
I have to tell you though as I said I first found the Lord in a Pentecostal Church, however, I’ve come to realize that not all Pentecostal churches are false churches or bad per say. The reason I say this is because after I left the hyper-charismatic church I was in, I felt a need to go back to the church where I was originally saved at and I remember saying to the Lord one morning is that if this was truly His leading and this was where He wanted me, then I would go one Sunday and take my husband with and I made a decision that if I felt a sense of peace about it and also gage my husbands reaction to the church (which was nerve racking to say the least, given his last reaction), then based on that, I would make a final decision as to whether this is where we would stay.
So I spoke to my husband about it and he agreed to check it out and bluntly told me that if he didn’t like what he saw he’d be walking out, I knew that already he didn’t have to tell me. So I decided to place it in the Lord’s hands and trust Him and take a step of faith.
So we went one Sunday, I was a nervous wreck to say the least because the last time I had been at the church was in 1997, I was 18 and I’m 32 now.
We sat through the service, not one person was “slain in the spirit”, I vaguely think I heard one of the guys praying in tongues behind me and not out of control, just softly to himself during worship. There were no feakshow antics, nobody going into violent convulsions etc nothing that you would normally see in a hyper-charismatic setting. The service itself was pleasant and enjoyable and I know that the previous Pastor had resigned to move onto other challenges and ventures and there is someone else that has taken over from him and is acting Pastor at the moment in fact I knew him from when I was at the church as a teenager.
And something stuck out for me during the service when the Pastor concluded because that day one of the members gave the teaching and he was talking about people who are for lack of a better word “addicted” to deliverance that they think they are constantly under attack from demons he spoke against that and explained very nicely that this is NEVER his first go to place, but most importantly what really struck me that he spoke about which was something that was bothering me for a long time, was the question of “what is my purpose as a Christian?” “what does God want to me do in life and how do I find out what that is exactly?” and his answer to that question was “are you Born-Again? do you love the Lord? etc…then you’re living your purpose”. He mentioned that a lot of people have this concern with regard to spiritual gifts, such as prophecy, healing, etc and “what is my gift? where does God want me in the church? what’s my job? and how do I find out?” and his answer was simple “are you Born-Again? if yes, that’s where God wants you” and anything other than that or over and above that will come and fall into place as and when the time is right. And more than that, what are your talents? has it occurred to you that your talents came from God and His intention is for you to use those talents to serve Him and that is your job? perhaps? he basically was telling us to stop over thinking things and making things more complicated than they needed to be and get back to basics.
Anyway, when we left I was a bit nervous about my husbands reaction and I figured the fact that he didn’t walk out was a good sign 😀 lol but when I asked him, he told me he was happy and comfortable there, he said he felt such a sense of peace and calm in that church and he said he felt absolutely at home and comfortable. The only complaint he had was that the worship service was a bit too long for him lol he gets tired standing for long periods and I told him that he doesn’t HAVE to stand through the whole thing he can sit if he wants to lol
My stepson actually also came with me one Sunday to the charismatic church I was at and he didn’t want to hurt my feelings but later told me that he was very uncomfortable there. And after taking him to Harvest with us, he asked me if they have a youth at the church and started asking me more about the church and told me that he wanted to stay at Harvest.
I actually had a discussion with my husband in fact on old years eve last year and I told him that I know that Harvest is far from us, it’s a good 20 minutes from us. And I said to him that it would be nice if we could find a church closer to us, but that Harvest is a place I know, I know the people there and I’ve known them for years and I know that they can be trusted and that they are genuine etc and I said to him that I personally would rather stick with what I know. Instead of putting ourselves in jeopardy to find a new church and possibly put ourselves in trouble again. But I told him that the decision was ultimately his based on the distance whether he wanted to stay there or if he would want to maybe look at other churches closer to us. And he immediately agreed with me that inspite of the distance he would rather stay at Harvest because he feels comfortable there and he finds it pleasant and peaceful and he’s happy there.
He said the one thing that stuck out for him the most was the times when people were prayed for during a service, he said he noticed that it was done quietly, and peacefully and respectfully and without turning it into a circus. And that was something that he likes about the church.
I tend to think that we can’t say that ALL Pentecostal churches are bad, I think some have had false spirits invade them and some have not. But I think its more a case of that we need to be awake and alert and pay attention to what we are being taught and also test the spirits, test everything and use the Bible as your yardstick to measure things and if what’s happening in a church or what the church is teaching does not line up with Scripture then it needs to be questioned and not just swept under the rug.
And just to end off, one thing that stuck out for me that you said in your original post was that constant dread feeling, like an oppressive, bad feeling like something wasn’t right. All this time I have had that exact same feeling, that feeling almost like I was suffocated, like something was wrong and having been in the hyper-charismatic I put it down to what I was taught there that is was demonic oppression so I did what I was taught to do and started praying and interceding etc. Needless to say it didn’t help…obviously. But since I’ve come to this point where I’ve realized that something is not right and started looking into it and I’ve started researching it, I’m slowly but surely feeling that feeling lift, I’ve gone straight back to Scripture and gotten back to basics, that’s all we can do is start over and trust the Lord to guide us and show us the right way. And its amazing to me to see the things that I couldn’t see before and to be having my eyes opened to truth, sometimes its scary, but I know it will be worth it in the end.
I am only at the beginning of this journey so…..wish me luck 😉 And I will definitely be following your blog and checking in from time to time 🙂
Thank you sooo much for the encouragement its so nice to know that there are others out there like us and that we have each other for support.
Until next time
P.S. I actually started my own blog in which I intend to post my findings in the hope of educating others and opening their eyes and perhaps my blog, God willing, will help to bring others out as well 🙂
Staci, For some reason your comment went into spam and this is the first time I am seeing it. You present quite a story and I will do more than wish you luck –
…that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. 18I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, 23which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
Reading through these posts, one thing that is lightly touched on, which I think we should all remember if called to engage in dialogue, is that followers of the NAR are told they simply can’t be deceived. Thing is, why would the writers of the NT spend so much time warning about deception if it wasn’t possible? Shoot, they had trouble with it back then! The attitude I get from the modern leaders (and I don’t know them all) but I’m thinking of books that I’ve read by Danny Silk, Bill Johnson and Tommy Tenney (who may not even be a real Christian since he’s actually a Oneness Pentecostal, a group that denies the Trinity) is that they have something better than Scripture: the Holy Spirit. Like one of the earlier posters said about the girl who left their relationship to go work at Bethel and wouldn’t listen to anything, they make a false dichotomy between the Word and the Spirit. I tried to bring this to the attention of one kid, an up-and-coming guitarist, a real genius who was an early college student, but he would have none of it, just mindlessly parroting and reposting whatever Bill Johnson tweeted. They somehow posit, and I haven’t yet fully figured out how they get this into people’s heads, that knowing the Scripture is in competition with being led by the Spirit. I guess they try to caricature on the history of some traditional denominations who supposedly knew the Bible and were and an example of what Christians and Christianity should be, but in practice were more like social or civic clubs than actual churches, and extend that appellation across to everyone who isn’t exactly like them. (Mike Bickle of IHOP is IMHO is the most blatant at this, telling attendees their pastors are lying to them.) But even there they would run up against the truth that any group that calls itself a church and doesn’t actually do the basic work of teaching people to rightly know and divide the Word can hardly be one. These NAR groups don’t even really target the lost with the message of the gospel, (I took one comment about the message of the kingdom not being having a ‘host of lost people flooding the church’ as a thinly veiled denigration of evangelism, that one really got my dander up) they really seek to draw other Christians away from their families and fellowships and get them isolated so they can be re-educated and assimilated into their structure.
Even in the midst of this, grace prevails because God is no respecter of persons. I think that perhaps the followers of these movements get so off-base is because, though they can know the Bible says what it says in Matthew 7:7-11, they don’t do it. They, as James says ‘ask amiss, that they may spend what they receive on their desires.’ Or they simply don’t ask at all, they just assume that God will do whatever their leaders are saying, without doing the requisite Berean checking up to see if what’s preached is orthodox.
I honestly believe that most of it is hype, these days, and like those two above who say they were saved in the 60’s/70’s Jesus movement and haven’t seen the real thing since, the leadership has hijacked the faith as a way to make money (witness the internal struggle over financial accountability in the WoF TBN media empire) or they’ve simply gotten so arrogant that they can’t see they’re driving over a cliff. I tried to warn them that years ago, I saw all this play out too up close for comfort with Earl Paulk’s network back in the 80’s, and look at what a disaster that ended up as.
Sometimes when I look at modern worship music, it seems like it’s nothing more than advertising, trying to create a desire for something you don’t need, because you already have it. ‘More of God’ is a paradoxical idea, because we already have Him living in us so how could there be more, except in the sense of growth (does a tree become more a tree, or is it always a tree?) But some of the lyrics just seem crafted to stir up emotion inordinately. Just some thoughts this morning.
Hi Dave. I appreciate the input.
Personally, I steer from most modern worship music because like you said, not only is it stirring up emotion, but also written by people who attend churches that preach the other jesus. If their doctrine is off, who are they singing to? Nothing I want to be a part of!
The topic of the Jesus Movement keeps popping up. Maybe its’ me and something I need to write about a bit. I am not sure how much of all that was real. Because I see so much of the same thing going on – dreams and visions, the voice of God, etc. I do believe that people were earnest in salvation, there just weren’t many teachers clinging to the word as there were teachers clinging to the supernatural. It is the same as we see today and worsening.
Dave, they feel they can’t be deceived because “it it were possible for the elect to be deceived” means to them it is “impossible” as they see themselves as the elect….
1 small problem with that is – my senior pastor announced that ” he could not be deceived” now on what basis… ? I am as much as in the “elect” as he is if we are both saved by grace & following Jesus & as I was disagreeing (strongly) about BJ teachings during that same conversation – one of us was deceived… he had no problem telling me categorically, that it was me being deceived & I better jump in this river or be considered “out of unity”
see how this thing works???
Hi Zazzy. Anytime we come up against a false teacher or prophet and voice those concerns the table will be turned. We are the ones who have the problem. We are wounded, in need of healing. We have a judgmental spirit. We are Pharisees. We take the bible too literally. The list goes on and on and what could have been a person saved from deception ends in their own self inflicted demise. PRIDE. I am sure you know these things out of experience. hummmm….????
very sadly I do… having been called out as a pharisee & character assassinated… for simply questioning all that was going on…
see if they can sucessfully wound – & damage – it “shuts up” the dissent… if you are made to feel like you have to keep quiet in order to protect your standing/reputation/role & keep out of trouble etc… this is abusive
of course this is the opposite of standing up for truth… If we no longer can bring a challenging word from scripture- a discernment – a rebuke – a proper prophetic revelation that is calling time on the whole shinnanagins – anything that is deemed “negative” for the fear of being ground to a pulp in spiritual abuse (which was definately going on in my circumstances) we have to know something is very very wrong indeed. This is the church I left…
Their behavior often reminds me of the bully on the playground. One person is picked out of many, made fun of, and the others go along with the bully to avoid hurt and gain the acceptance of the bully, the bad guy. We never get out of the playground, do we?
Or high school. Having to be in on what the popular, ‘successful’ kids are doing. Afraid of ‘missing out.’ When, if you think about it for just a second, since we are ‘accepted in the Beloved’ what is there to miss out on?
Hi M’kayla. You mentioned that your spate with the healing rooms involved the subject of ‘Christian curses, word curse.’ Christians, perhaps in want of justice, may pray in bitterness and spite somewhat like the psalmists of old. But to think that ‘Christian curses’ comes to pass is to conclude that our Great High Priest and intercessor has actually sanctioned it. Personally, it seems ludicrous if not blasphemous. Could you provide a brief take on this issue? Thank you. Btw, it pertains to a (questionable) book by Dennis Cramer–Breaking Christian Curses Finding Freedom from Destructive Prayers © 1997 Arrow Publications (a ministry of Francis Frangipanne).
[PDF] Breaking Christian Curses QX4 – Lit4ever Ministry http://www.lit4ever.org/pdf/EB-DC003_Breaking_Christian_Curses.pdf
Larry, it goes along with the scripture there is power in the tongue to bless or curse. In WOF if someone speaks against another, a curse is formed which has the power to affect the person’s life or well-being in a negative way.
Aside from this scripture, I don’t know of any other to back up the belief this truly is possible. While we do have the power to an extent, spoken words can bring great harm, they don’t have the power in the sense WOF teaches, to effect the supernatural.
I know there are other pastors and teachers out there who strongly hold such beliefs, and have written books on it. Larry Hucht is one whose writing was quite popular for a time.
I am familiar with both these men’s beliefs and do not recommend the book. Is Christ not enough to break every curse? I believe that He is.
‘..cursing has been a part of human history – men have invoked curses on other men – but that’s not the major point. The major point, believe it or not folks, is that God has cursed men. That’s right. God has pronounced curses on men. God has said they are devoted to destruction, they are doomed, and it is not just a passing thought in Scripture, it is a major emphasis.’ John MacArthur, The Curse of God (1977) http://www.gty.org/
Thank you M’Kayla for the response. Christ, in being hung on a tree, has indeed broken the curse on man and certainly more so for His redeemed. Any doubt or contradiction to this onerous truth seems all but a distortion and a sheer insult directed at the exhaustive and complete work of Christ at the cross and at His resurrection. Blessings.
It does all go back to the thinking that Christ is not enough. More has to be done, thought about, dug into, exposed. And if it is not just this one thing, maybe another or another. It is bondage. We repent from our sins and follow Christ. We keep His words, doing the things He taught and commanded His followers to do. We submit to His will, read and study the bible and we pray. It is through this we are changed, His power, His way. We do not need these excessive teachings of me that led to bondage. When we follow them, we turn from Christ and His freedom. Amazing how the truth is so simple.
Hi M’Kayla and all you who read this wonderful blog,
I’m writing today because I’d like to ask all who read this to join with me in prayer for the church my wife and I attend.
Last night I was able to go to a “party” set up to thank those at our Church who are serving in some capacity or another. I had been unable to attend similar events in the past because they had been held on the same night of a prior standing commitment I had. Perhaps if I had gone to some of these other events, I would have seen this earlier.
Last night our lead pastor began to talk to us about becoming a “mega church.” He mentioned several times about this not begin his focus but he kept coming back to the idea time and time again, even going so far as to show us the new buildings and “prayer tower” he would like to build.
While I don’t automatically object to mega churches, I do object to the focus on size over quality of the lives of the attendees and of talking all the time about our particular congregation instead of the body of Christ which, dear reader, is every follower of Jesus Christ regardless of our individual denominations. It seemed to me that our congregation has become so focused on building “us” up instead of seeking first the Kingdom of God and His’ righteousness.
The pastor then went on to speak about the “Pensacola Blessing” (aka “Brownsville Revival”) and praying for revival in our own Church. He spoke favorably to us of his experiences while at one of the Pensacola meetings and of being “slain in the Spirit” and unable to move from the floor. It sounded so much like he was looking for us to experience similar manifestations.
He then said something that almost made me put my hand up just to ask him if I had heard him correctly. He said that worship was more important than preaching because people get saved through the music, not by the preaching. Pause for shock to sink in.
He also then spoke about Jack Hayford appearing at our church and the pastor then said, “how many of you know that when a man like Jack Hayford comes, it isn’t to preach, but to impart.” This sounded so like things I’ve heard from the hyper-charismatic movement before that I felt like I had been hit by a hammer.
I grabbed one of the associate pastors and asked him if we were planning to have revival like the “Toronto Airport Blessing, Brownsville Revival, and the Lakeland Outpouring.” I also asked him if we were heading in the direction of Bethel Church and Bill Johnson. He said that I had mentioned some examples that they were mindful of and that they were just open to see how God moves.
Friends, my wife and I are deeply concerned and will be sending a letter to our pastor to try and set up a time to discuss this. We are praying that God will thwart every effort to seek after these “spiritual” excesses that have no basis in God’s Word. We do not want to see those that we fellowship with get led astray by yet another so-called-move-of-God that produces no fruit and ends in abject failure. Please, if you could spare just one prayer for the protection of our Church and the opening of our leaders’ eyes, we would greatly appreciate it. Thank you.
Thanks Shawn. We are called to a life of prayer. So, it isn’t so great a task to ask – it is done. We do not spend enough time doing that one thing as we should. This is a point that has become very dear to me. I will pray for you, your wife, the pastors and leadership of your church and it’s members. Please keep me (us) informed. I am sure others will pray too.
If you have not already read this, Tom’s experience in this very thing will be helpful.
absolutely will… it certainly sounds like this leadership is on the path towards these things. We have a God who can turn things around.
For the longest time, it was their playground that was being built while they fleeced the unwitting flock to realize their whims. I’m not all for Charisma magazine, but for what its worth Grady has pointed some truth.
Barna Study concludes: PEOPLE ARE NOT LEAVING THE TRADITIONAL CHURCH BECAUSE THEY HAVE LOST THEIR FAITH, THEY ARE LEAVING TO PROTECT THEIR FAITH..
When Is It Time to Leave a Church? 9:39AM EST 2/27/2013 J. Lee Grady
1. No accountability.
2. Spiritual elitism.
3. Entrenched immorality.
4. An authoritarian spirit.
5. Unbridled greed.
6. False doctrines and manifestations.
7. A culture of pride.
Thank you all, I deeply appreciate the response and the links to more information. The prayers of righteous people are effective and avail much – thank you so much!
Yes, I will keep you posted, M’Kayla, and thank you for letting me post here. I had read Tom’s account several weeks ago and was mindful of it as I considered what to do. We don’t have a team of elders that I’m aware of, so there is little chance of being able to influence at that level, but prayer and attempting to reason with him might be all that’s needed. All I can know and cling to is that that Jesus told us to pray and I’ll do my part trusting that He will do His. At the end of the day, God cares for people far more then I ever could – I’m hoping that He’ll protect His followers in this situation, too.
Praying for you guys Shawn!
As a musician, I have to take issue with anyone who says someone gets saved through the music. If I’m used to bring truth, healing, clarity, that’s great, but it don’t now nor will it ever just come from me tickling either the ivories or someone’s ‘itching ears.’ Don’t put the burden of the Cross on the musicians. And you can take that to your pastor. If right music could save us, or right teaching, or right relating or anything else, the Cross wouldn’t have happened.
I promised to give you an update on the status of my church and the situation with the false teaching about “music saving people” from a couple of weeks ago.
We’ll I’m pleased to say that our pastor wrote us back and apologized for his “foolish comment,” asked us to forgive him, and told us that he is confident that he misspoke and that he did not mean to say or imply that the Bible is in any way, shape, or form, “less.”
He said he probably meant to say that both music and the Word help lead people to Christ. I told him that although I don’t know the theology behind his statement, I’m also confident that God can use anything to win souls – it was just important to my wife and I that what is taught from the front is in line with Scripture.
All in all we feel really pleased with how this turned out. We could not have asked from a more humble and genuine response. Comparing the response we received with Tom’s situation in your other thread – I think it’s easy to see the difference in one man being a pastor (and therefore accountable) and the other being a “hired hand’ and therefore being resistant to all criticism.
I want to thank all of you who have been praying for this situation – even if all you did was pray once and then forget about it. I value the support that we can all give each other as brothers and sisters in Christ no matter where we live.
Thanks M’Kayla – I’m glad I found your blog – I’ve learned so much from all the comments and the topics.
BTW – my wife and I checked out a local “simple/organic” church in our area this past Sunday. It was a real joy to share fellowship with other believers where everyone was free to participate in worshiping God as a community (i.e. we could all speak and pray together). If anyone reading this is one of the 120 million believers worldwide (11 million in the U.S.) who have dropped out of mainstream church for any number of reasons, consider looking around for a simple or organic group that meet in people’s homes just like the early Act’s Church. I can’t promise that they’ll all be perfect or even free from crazy people, but here’s praying that God will place you into the “right” group.
Wow! What a blessing your blog has been and will continue to be. Thank you for your hard work and diligence. I was semi-involved in the Melodyland Christian Center and Vineyard era of the 90’s and on until about 2004. I was taught to “test all things” by the late Walter Martin and it kept me safe! Bless you.
Craig Savord. Hi. Thanks for the encouragement. I remember Melodyland and went there to see Andre Crouch when I was about 14 – a very long time ago. It was quite popular back then, early 70’s.
I hope this is the right place to post this…
This is my first post here though I have read a sigtificant amount of material on the site over the last six months. I am looking for feedback. First, a bit about myself to help you understand where I am coming from.
I have attended Wesley and Stacey Campbell’s Church (New Life Church) in Kelowna, BC. for over twenty years and we would call them our friends. We have been in their home many times. During our tenure at New Life I have seen and listened to virtually the entire entourage of speakers in their loop from Bill Johnson to Todd Benetly to Bob Jones, etc, etc. I went to Toronto Airport Fellowship during the Toronto Blessing a number of times and have attended most of the New Life Church conferences.
I have a strong teaching gift and three years ago Wesley asked me to teach in the Eyes and Wings School of Supernatural Ministry which is patterned after the Bethel School and uses much of their material. This last year I taught Biblical Interpretation and New Testament Survey. The students and staff consistently tell me that I and my class are their favorite of all the ones they take. Wesley mentions this to me frequently, “Brian (not my real name), you are their favorite teacher.”
Prior to the beginning of the last school year, I sat down with the director of the school (who runs it under Wesley and Stacey) and was asked, “Can we work together?” the question being asked due to our theological differences. I said, if they would give me one class to present my doctrinal differences, I would teach. So on the last class of the year I presented my differences in three of about seven areas where I disagree with school doctrine: 1) I do not believe in modern day apostles, and, by extension, I do not believe in fivefold ministry, 2) I do not believe healing is in the atonment, 3) I do not believe that Jesus laid aside divinity (or put it so to speak into hibernation) while on earth. Prior to this class, when teaching on Eschatology, I had also told the students I did not believe the church would take the seven mountains of influence and that, in fact, this was an allegorical interpretation of Rev 17:9 or that there would be an end time revival except perhaps in the context of Joel 2:32 since the Bible does not speak of one but rather talks about an end time falling away (apostasy). The director was not happy with my presentation saying that it caused confusion in the class due to their respect for my research. I have various students approaching me privately and asking questions. However, the director still wants me to teach this coming year due to my gifting and popularity as a teacher but to tone down the differences or have a different teacher teach the classes where the differences would naturally be covered.
I really don’t know what to do. In the lectures and homework, I place considerable emphasis on how to use Scripture to weigh and test and emphasize that it is the final word on what we believe, not modern prophecy. Different students have asked point blank questions as they have detected verses which place some of the school’s teachings into question so I know I am helping them to think, weigh and test. My family likes attending New Life because of the freedom primarily in the worship. They can wave flags and dance, etc which is frowned on in other churches we might attend in the area. We can debrief at home when there is a sermon or practise we disagree with. I gain my personal nourishment from other sources than New Life Church.
Am I missing something due to my long involvement? Would an onlooker be negatively influenced by my presence since I am respected for my Bible knowledge and scholarship? Would they assume I am in agreement by association? I know that sometimes the deluding influence is so strong that one begins to question one’s sanity. For that reason, I keep some close friends outside of New Life that I can dialogue with. Most of them are surprised that I haven’t left although they recognize that I am having some influence. Is it possible God wants me to stay and influence the students? Is that fundamentally dishonest?
I would appreciate any counsel the people frequenting this site might provide. If I am going to leave New Life and the school I need to make my decision by the beginning of August at the latest so they can find a replacement teacher. Thanks for listening.
Brian, first let me apologize for my absence and being slow at posting your comment. I truly believe you know the answer to your question. There is nothing you hold in common to this group of false teachers and prophets, just as Christ and Satan have nothing in common.
Thank you for your comment and your honesty. Feel free to continue.
I posted the above on June 17 and there have been no postings since then. As such, I’m assuming that this blog is not in use anymore so I will be moving on….
I had a similar experience. Married a woman who attended a charismatic church in Hemet, CA and went to see Kim Clement many times in Pasadena. We went to a Todd Bentley conference in Rocklin, CA and met people from Bethel church. I ended up taking a promotion to Redding in 2008 and everything started falling apart with my self proclaimed seer/prophetess. There was a tacit level of permissiveness that I sensed and I wanted to pull out. My wife choose to start partying and becoming a wine snob, drinking every night and then it all fell apart and she divorced me. I’ve lived in Las Vegas for the past two years and I look at the mess that we got into an the charismatic nonsense that we followed… Very sad.
Thank you for your blog, I follow it regularly.
beo, I am so sorry to hear your sad news. Stay faithful, the Lord does not forget His own. Thank you for your comment.
I am very much at awe. All of what you wrote has happened to me in one way or another.
I have so many questions.
I would love to remain in contact with you if that is ok.
Stand firm, defend the faith.
Yes John, of course.
Brian – it sounds to me like you at the very beginnings of thinking through where you are at with this.. no one of us can tell you what you must do – as that must depend on your obedience to the Holy Spirit… but there a re a couple of things from my experience I know now that will most likely be in the mix for you:
* its likely that in this environment – even after all the years of time & personal investment of relationships etc at every level you have put in that you will become increasingly disquieted in your spirit… I Know for sure the theological things that you have stated you dont believe are right -are being actively outworked as “advancements for the kingdom” as proceedures & methods… I think to be honest- wherever you turn you will see it… the practical application of false theology…. this movement call that “activation”
* in mine & others experience, once dialogue begins – about what is “going down” so to speak in relationship to what the bible teaches. where there is difference from a person with leadership or teaching responsibility, who seeks to bring correction or even just information to produce balance for consideration – as you will have naturally done in the classroom – in this movement – a person who is not fully in agreement – becomes sidelined & usurped… this is because there are sacred cows of 1) power of agreement – thinking which in turn leads to 2) every one must be in complete unity in order to establish the kingdom — the house divided against itself – concept being used to justify this & 3) the power of the spoken word… once you speak out these things, it will be considered as a “declaration” – if that is perceived as negative & anti unity – you or any of us will be considered as ones who bring in confusion & distress rather than truth & healing… sorry to say but the “powers” that be will not tolerate that on any level — this in time sadly may present as a lack of trust of you & extend to your wider family.. the pain of walking through this is horrendous… sadly I have been there.
you have said: Am I missing something due to my long involvement? Would an onlooker be negatively influenced by my presence since I am respected for my Bible knowledge and scholarship? Would they assume I am in agreement by association?
maybe- but even more so if you are made to toe the line in order to keep your position of teaching… could you continue teaching under restrictions & conditions of what you can or cant bring from the word in all truth? & is that right if presented to you or is it manipulative & controlling…. ? personally I think that there is nothing in word, that cannot be taught in all truth… especially in the classroom where students are there to explore in depth…
certainly if you stay in the longer term & are able to say nothing to bring correction – the ordinary Joe – will interpret this as an endorsement of everything that is going on.. especially if you are in any form of leadership in the church…
the ordinary Joe looks to his leader, & says to himself “well such & such doesnt have a problem with x so Im fine with it too…” & this actually is how the basis of this whole error filled river movement rolls – (everyone everywhere is actually saying this in order to justify everything…) see the endorsement is built not on what God thinks – but what MAN thinks is appropriate & Godly thats one of the big reasons WHY it is false
if you are a leader with responsibility for people in the church, & clearly a teacher of the word of God to people – in whatever context – classroom or pulpit – then it is important to remember that God himself holds such ones much more accountable – for leading the sheep – so your responsibility is first & foremost to him – in bringing his truth correctly, dilligently, carefully with all wisdom & integrity.. otherwise you would be representing something you feel is false & wrong… that ain’t Godly & secondly- to the people you are bringing truth to… no one should be misled or hoodwinked into a place of error that they believe is true- for what ever else reason, it is dishonest, dishonourable & a con… these things are not fruit of the spirit ways – if we check out Galatians 5… why should the people – those precious ordinary Joes who Christ sacrificed himself for be subjected to that –
certainly this is not an easy process to work through — I have totally been there – so will be praying for you… x
I think you said it yourself when you asked the questions, “Would they assume I am in agreement by association?” However, if you chose to remain and to preach the truth for those that attend your class, those that attend would, at least, know that you differ in your opinions.
I am, however, reminded of the verse that asks us whether two unevenly yoked people can walk in the same direction. If you do stay and preach the truth, you know full well that a confrontation is coming. If you do decide to stay and change your preaching to reflect their teachings… well, I don’t think you will so no need to elaborate on that.
Have you asked the question, “what would Jesus do?” He went everywhere preaching the gospel but I never read that He went into a pagan temple to do so. Anyway man, yought call although I know what I wuld do.
All the best!
‘Brian’ I’ll go ahead and put it into words for you. Yes, as long as you stay, by your presence you affirm your support. If you can’t in good conscience support what’s going on, then for the sake of honesty and integrity you should leave. Being a visible authority figure means you will have to say why you are disassociating yourself, and in my experience it means you’ll either be ignored or denigrated, so be prepared for that.
Truth does not need to hide or to be afraid of questions; the fact that the leadership is apprehensive about your approach means that you’re probably pricking their hearts about the inconsistencies in their doctrine and practice. If they in fact used the word ‘confusion’ I’d say that they’re not prepared to answer the hard questions that your Scriptural research brings up when it’s applied to their heterodox practices, and they’d rather not deal with it. So, my advice would be to pray and stay as long as the Holy Spirit allows and then move on. And if He’s telling you to go now, make a graceful exit.
I too had difficulty leaving a place where expressive worship was encouraged, but frankly, if you’re not waving flags and banners and dancing at home, your attachment to the pageantry may not be as deep as you think.
beo, your story put me in mind of 2 Tim 3:1-9:
2Ti 3:1-9 ESV –  But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty.  For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,  heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good,  treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,  having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.  For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions,  always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth.  Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith.  But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men.
My hope is that your ex will come out of her deception.
Thank you for the wise and discerning counsel. As many of you know, when one is trying to stay fixed on truth in the midst of error, at some points you begin to question your sanity because “how can everyone be wrong but you? Isn’t that presumption and pride?” So the thoughts here have helped me keep my headspace and to think more clearly.
My family and I have decided to check out other church options for three months and then make a decision as to which one we will attend.
Also, I had been praying that the school would not become an error distribution centre. If the leaders would not listen, I asked God to shut the school down. And, it appears that that is what is happening. The enrollment of first year students is down over 80% from last year and the leaders are questioning the viability of continuing. So there will not be a teaching position for me by default and God has supplied me with other income. I am now on staff with the local Teen Challenge Base which is only nine minutes from my house.
Thank you again for your thougthful responses and support.
By the way, my real name is Larry.
Praise God Larry! Wow! I have a family member going thru Teen Challenge!!! We are seeing so much fall apart in our society and we must be ready when change becomes necessary. We are preparing for worsening conditions and will see God provide as He wills. Stand strong my friend.
Praise God! He is good! God supplies us with all our needs 🙂
Hi! I just found this site about 2 days ago ( so I will be reading!!). I have questions. My apologies if these have already been covered. I Need healing. I am unable to work in my chosen field (CNA, or really at all, since 2009).
I am newly attending Word of Faith, because I am new in town. I (newly) believe Jesus never told us to throw out the commandments, and only follow what He said. I am searching out to understand and follow the commandments that can be done today, not just the 10, but all of them. As I’m not a “levitical priest, that narrows it down some 🙂 .
I’m being driven by the loss of my “blessed assurance”. I haven’t had it for many months now.
I have followed several individuals flowing in “healing anointing” on youtube, but they are just that much off the mark.
So I’m pretty much out in the depths here treading water, no life boat in sight…
Thanks for your time.
Jesus is my beloved 1, for you I would say to leave the WOF church, ask for forgiveness in following after these false teachers and prophets and lean whole heartedly on the word of God, allowing the Lord to teach you truth. All who call on the name of the Lord, all who believe will be saved. That is your assurance. Walk in it. 🙂
Almighty JESUS is the TRUTH.
I feel like the whole world is spinning around me. I came hear because I was researching Kenneth Hagin after reading a book of his on faith. I’d never read his stuff before. Some of it lined up with scriptures- but a lot didn’t. I started to get confused and I said “God in not the author of confusion”.
I started reading the posts and trying to figure out what kind of christians you guys were or if you were just deceived. When I read what you said about Bill Johnson it got more of my attention. I’ve always thought he was such a powerful man of God. I have friends who go to his church. Heidi Baker…she came to my old church a few times. I liked her a lot. (Todd Bentley always seemed like a whacko to me).
I left a prophetic church a year ago- no more than that. Maybe 2 years ago. I just couldn’t stomach some of it. I’ve been looking for a new church but unable to find one I like. I was questioning things that were said by the teachers I admire.
Last night I just started crying and crying. It’s all deception? The Holy Spirit has been trying to tell me all this time? That’s why things didn’t line up with scripture and seemed confusing to me all along. The music, too? I love the music!! I listened to it all the time and the presence of the Lord but that too is a deception and there all lies and it wasn’t His presence after all?
This is almost too much for me. Since 1972 when I got saved in the Jesus movement, I found a charismatic church and have been influenced by it almost all of my Christian life! Caught up in all of it-the prophetic, the healings, the giftings. Thank you for this website and for the truth. All I have is my bible now. I need your prayer please. My friends are still involved in it. My husband is not because he won’t go to church and does not know the Lord so I guess now that’s good.
I know the Holy spirit led me here and just used your site to help me see the rest of what I was already questioning and not understanding. I’m just sick to my stomach now and couldn’t sleep last night. I have to be careful how I pray.
Terry, I apologize for the delay. I have moved to another state.
I hope you are well today and that you are being reassured by the Holy Spirit. Thank the Lord my friend because you are truly blessed to have been led out of the deception. I know how you feel, tho I will agree it must be ever so much more hard for you given the years of experience in charismania. Still, I thank God for His goodness and for delivering you back into the faith that you had once believed. That is your anchor – praise and thankfulness. The Lord will guide, strengthen and settle you. Give yourself time. Feel free to vent or whatever here.
I’m still in shock from all this- but so glad this blog is here. I neglected to tell you that I was not involved in the charismatic church this entire time. I left after about four years (after being hurt by some very damaging “prophetic words” to me personally). I was so young and fell away from Jesus.
About 10 years ago I came back to Jesus but determined to stay far away from these crazy pentecostals. Tried various other denominations including catholic. I can’t believe I got seduced once again into this movement. And it is far worse than it was back then!! I am so thankful that my God is a faithful God! He drew me back to Him.
M’Kayla, thank you for this blog! If you have any other suggested reading I would be grateful. This is so hard right now. I was in such darkness and the Holy Spirit was nudging me and nudging me ….
“The lamp of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is good, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!’ Matthew 6:22-23
I’ve been where you are now, though, I wasn’t involved in the charismatic movement for long. The church I grew up in would stick its toes into charismatic, purpose driven, emergent leanings, and then eventually started a “praise band” and the music they started playing made you feel like you were having the greatest high of your life (so to speak). I actually believed I was manifesting in the presence of God. But the truth was not there. The preacher was preaching his opinion rather than scriptures. He would preach personal experiences and somehow tie it into scripture as if the bible was about him!
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
10 For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant[b] of Christ.
You find the truth in the gospel. That we were dead in our trespasses and Christ was crucified for the forgiveness of sin, and rose on the 3rd day, and all who REPENT of their sin and believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God, will be saved.
Oh and just in case you have the message bible, throw it away. It is not God breathed but man centered and filled with new age terminology.
I will be praying for you that the Lord will lead you to the right church and will bring you clarity and peace of mind during this time. The bible is all you need. Let scripture interpret scripture and do not allow these false teachers to take the precious word of God completely out of context.
Dear Anyone Confused:
I have been pondering this for a while and this is my spin on the whole issue concerning this particular debate.
Okay. I have heard some say that these false teachers and preachers wouldn’t be able to say “Jesus is Lord” if they were not from God, but does not the bible teach us that EVERY knee shall bow and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord!?! So regardless just because they say that Jesus is Lord does not qualify a person as a follower or believer of Him because everyone will have to confess it whether they believe in Him or not. Even the demons know who He is and are made to confess the truth! Do they say Jesus is MY Lord?
They will say anything to silence opposition to their heritcal doctrines of devils.
Anybody else have any thoughts about this?
And as far as those who are so concerned about judging others; Paul says to MARK them. We ARE to judge false teachers and false doctrine! Who else is gonna point out the error? We need to stop being so intimidated and scared into silence. We who know, better say something or who will?!?
Keeping silent is exactly what they hope we will be but WHO will stand for our Lord Jesus Christ and support him and what He did for us. WHO will be of great courage and stand against these foul foe?
We are to point them out and mark them accordingly. I sure wish I would have come across a blog like this before I almost lost my mind because of listening to these evil men and women!
We are to be Soldiers of The Cross and Stand Up, Stand Up for Jesus!
M’kayla, I appreciate your openness and honesty. I can relate to so much of your experience. I was living in deception for over 30 years. I went to several NAR conferences put on by Peter Wagner with Cindy Jacobs and all that crew, was involved with an IHOP healing room for a period of time, Elijah list etc, etc. I was thoroughly enmeshed in this stuff as well as the extreme charismatic and WOF teachings. Then to top it all off, the Presbyterian church I was a member of for over 25 years began bringing in, via a new pastor, the contemplative prayer stuff. Believe it or not it was the contemplative stuff, of all things, that actually made me start questioning, searching and studying.
After the Lord showed me, through his word, that this was all false it sent me on a frenzy of Biblical study and research into these teachings and all that is false. Boy was I a mess! Four years later I have a computer full of research and boxes full of books of all kinds!!! I realized very quickly I did not even know the basics of correct Biblical study and interpretation, had not ever heard of hermeneutics, exegesis etc., let alone eisegesis, panthiesm, panenthiesm, or mysticism, and definitely had no real understanding of heresy and apostasy, etc., etc., etc,, I remember just weeping and repenting with each new discovery of the depth of my deception, and constantly asking myself “where in the world have I been?”
This has been a long hard journey, I felt like I had been brainwashed, as if I was being deprogrammed and reprogrammed just as if I had been in a cult… once again, boy was I a mess! I have been called all manner of things, have lost lifetime friendships, and strained family relationships with those which are still involved in this stuff. But I am determined to continue contending earnestly for the faith no matter the cost.
Blogs like yours have been a great blessing to me, it not only has helped me sort this stuff out, but it has helped me feel like I was not alone. To God alone be the glory!
Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Contending – beautiful! Welcome home! xoxoxox
Thank you so much for this blog. Eight years ago, I walked away from a ‘new age’ Christian Church. I walked around in a total fog, lost memories and just kept on believing that someday the Lord would reveal to me the truth. I became suicidal and lo and behold, help is led directly to me. Four years ago I went through multiple deliverance sessions.Only to have the deliverance team reveal they were heading to ‘a supernatural school’ for intensive training (red flag #1). My second red flag came a month later when they returned. Unfortunately I ignored the red flags. Like you, I figured they knew better than I did. After 4 years, I saw something that literally made me snap. I realized how many warnings the Lord had given me during the 4 year span. This was only just recent,and still very fresh. But I praise God for waking me up, my memories of what I was a part of in the new age are returning, and through gallons of tears I have repented and am being restored by our Lord, Jesus Christ. Praising His love and forgiveness, mercy and grace. What I saw put the ‘fear of God’ in me so deep that I knew I had to warn the ‘small church family’ I had grown to love. They have ignored every side by side comparison of my previous experience and what they are doing right now. They just blow it all off and say, “what you did went against God, Satan is a copy cat. I know what I’m doing” In my heart I know that they don’t. They have fallen for the illusion the evil one has put into place, and their minds are confused. Statements made to me by at least one of these non-denominational church leaders is evidence that they are ‘chasing signs and wonders’. Which is a straght up warning written in The Word.
So yes, even the elect will be deceived. I pray that my friends wake up before its too late. I have cut ties and simply pray for them now. For their eyes to be opened to see God’s Holy Truth.
Again, thank you. I am so glad the Lord saved you so you could warn others.
Great comments Mary! We are praising the Lord together with you and will be in prayer for your restoration and your continuing in the things of Him!
Mary, you said, “I saw something that literally made me snap.” Would you mind expounding on that? I would like ANY additional information you could give to help me at all since we have good friends and my sister and her family is heavily involved with all this (and THAT is an understatement).
We have tried talking to our friends, but they are so prideful and arrogant that they dismiss all we say. Funny, your comments are so typical for those even just a bit involved in the NAR movement. It’s like they are all speaking from the same script.
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you Mary!