Echo Zoe Interviews Sandy Simpson

Wow! Lookie what I found! – 🙂

For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. – 2 Corinthians 11:13

Sandy Simpson, of the Apologetics Coordination Team, joins me to discuss the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR). Sandy runs Deception in the Church, an extensive library of resources on the NAR and related movements and organizations.

Link to Echo Zoe  – article and podcast!

The Nefarious NARians

Romans 16:17 Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them.

18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech decieve the hearts of the simple.

Thanks again to Bud Press! 🙂

An Unhealthy Update on Peter and Doris Wagner
The nefarious NARians
by Bud Press
October 26, 2011

For decades, C. Peter Wagner and his wife Doris have led the New Apostolic Reformation in a worldwide campaign against the forces of darkness. At the same time, they have convinced untold thousands that performing spiritual warfare on demonic strongholds is a sure-fire remedy to rid cities, states, and global territories of those pesky critters.

The key, according to the nefarious NARians, is to identify the demonic big cheeses, map-out the strongholds where they do business, and raid their camps with NAR flags o’ victory waving in the breeze.

But the battle won’t be won until the New Apostolic Reformation reforms the minds of the innocent and gullible, and establishes complete “dominion” and “control” over the Christian church. Once this is done, NARians will elect their self-appointed apostolic government, and place their self-elected prophetic politicians in power to dominate and dictate. Then, when the planets are in perfect alignment, and all the heretic hunters have been silenced, the NAR will give its “Jesus” the green light to return, where it will teach good NARians to walk as robots through a field of tulips and sing Kum Bah Yah.

As the battle rages, what the Wagners and their fellow NARians fail to see is their focus is on demonic activity–instead of the real Jesus Christ and the truth of His written word. Concentrating on demons and their destruction gains more oppression from the one whose attempt to overthrow God got him and one third of his demonic angels bounced out of heaven on their forked tails.

Needless to say, sharing Jesus Christ and the gospel will, of course, lead more people to Christ than worrying about demons behind every tree in every city, state, and territory throughout the world.

Consequently, those who refuse to cooperate with the NARian agenda will, no doubt, suffer the consequences, and may be sentenced to eating stale popcorn while suffering through endless re-runs of Todd Bentley shaking, rattling, rolling, and kicking his way through the 2008 Lakeland revival. To add insult to injury, commercial breaks will feature a video of Jessa Bentley shaking her head fast enough to sling her eyeballs into the audience during a New Age mini-revival at Rick Joyner’s MorningStar church.

While the Wagners and the NARians toot their spiritual warfare trumpets and blow shouts of victory over their desensitized followers, their efforts to rid the world of demonic activity was, in reality, doomed before it began. G. Richard Fisher explains:
In 1990, the Spiritual Warfare Network (SWN) was formed by these new apostles and prophets. It is important to remember that they have had 20 years to reclaim ethnic groups, nations, and parcels of geography. So far, after two decades, they have made no progress at all. [“Mountains and Other Tall Tales: Examining the Fantasy World of Modern-day ‘Apostle and Prophet’ C. Peter Wagner,” The Quarterly Journal of Personal Freedom Outreach, October-December 2011, p. 8]
Continuing, Fisher states that, “After 20 years of selling their ideas, there is no proof of being able to take or reclaim territory from demons.” [Ibid., italics theirs]

Fisher is right on target. NARians travel the globe claiming to take “authority” over demonic activity. However, local, state, and world news report a much different story: Those pesky demons are still active and wreaking havoc.

Could it be that the NAR’s claims are without merit? Could it be that the New Apostolic Reformation–which is plagued with heretics, false prophets, and blasphemers–is overshadowed by demons, and is paving its dirt road for the antichrist?

Final answers? Yes, and Yes.

Simply put, crime is on the rise, and crime will continue to rise and become more sadistic until Jesus returns (study Matthew chapter 24 for details). Jesus didn’t mince words. He gave an outline of things to come. Later, the Holy Spirit inspired the apostles to issue warnings about things to come (study the Apostle Paul’s letters to Timothy).

Indeed, C. Peter Wagner needs to be asked, “Specifically, which city or state or territory has been cleaned and fumigated of all demonic activity?” If his answer is, “Gee, I don’t know,” then NARians everywhere should mentally delete Wagner’s “revelation knowledge,” gain knowledge from what God has already said in His written revelation, and consult Ephesians 6:13-18; Acts 19:13-16; Jude 1:9 and, 2 Corinthians 11:13-15, which specifically teaches:

For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.

The Apostle Paul wrote it, and the Holy Spirit inspired it. Welcome to the New Apostolic Reformation.

Therefore, as the kingdom of NARia continues its ill-fated battle against demonic activity, and as the NAR continues to gain converts, one battle the Wagners are facing is their declining health, which reads like a Who’s Who within the medical kingdom.

Signs, but no wonders

According to NARian-produced newsletters, updates, and prayer requests over this year, the Wagners have been under extensive medical care for a long period of time. Doris Wagner suffered from infectious diseases, placed on hyper-antibiotics, diagnosed with a heart tumor, and underwent operations on her knee. Currently, she is scheduled to undergo major knee surgery. C. Peter Wagner has a lingering cough, swelling in both legs and abdomen, problems with his heart, and has been placed on blood thinners. He is scheduled for cataract surgery in both eyes.

Like the average human being who reaches the elderly stage of life, Peter and Doris Wagner suffer from illnesses, diseases, and sicknesses. It’s a given. But, unlike the average human being, NARians think they are special, an attitude which is demonstrated by their exclusive, elitist mentality. After all, they are what makes up the “signs and wonders” movement, where almost everyone is said to operate in all of the spiritual gifts, including the gift of healing.

While there is no humor in human suffering, when the chips are down, where are all the NARian faith healers? Why haven’t they flocked to Peter and Doris’ side and demonstrated their gift of healing for the world to see?

Could it be that the “signs and wonders” movement is all signs and no wonders? Perish the thought. How dare anyone even suggest such a thing! Those who do could be accused of “attacking the anointed” and “judging falsely” and acting like a “Pharisee”.

Trail of lies

Common sense dictates that if just one NARian had the Biblical gift of healing, he or she would jump at the chance to lay hands on Doris and Peter, and heal them from head-to-toe through the power of God. Since “teleporting” here and there is part of the signs and wonders movement, travel expenses would be kept to a bare minimum.

But it ain’t gonna happen! Hyper-Charismatics who are caught up in the “signs and wonders” movement demonstrate plenty of signs, but they leave people wondering what the heck is going on. Simply put, they do not have the Biblical gift of healing. Again, they do not have the Biblical gift of healing. The sick and dying show up to be healed, and they leave unhealed.

Faith healers can’t heal Peter and Doris, and Peter and Doris can’t heal each other. Therefore, Peter and Doris are forced to turn to the field of medicine for their healing.

All liars know that a lie must be backed-up with another lie to cover the first lie. This is one reason why heretics and false healers spew excuses, play spin-doctor, intimidate their followers, issue threats, and exercise damage control over their own words–and their followers eat it up! One lie leads to another lie, until the liar gets so confused that he or she can’t recall the lies. It is then when the liar becomes a pathological liar.

Liars work hard to cover their lying tracks, but they always leave their getaway cars in the front yard.

Finally, this update on the unhealthy state of Peter and Doris Wagner would not be complete without leaving the reader an important, but ironic, point to ponder: during C. Peter Wagner’s tenure at the Wagner Leadership Institute, he taught a course on “Divine Healing”. The “Course Description” states,
This is a classic foundational class on divine healing. Topics include performing the works of Jesus, the role of faith in healing, ways in which one can verify miracles, healing as it relates to God’s kingdom, healing as part of the atonement, and the substance of the anointing. ( http://tinyurl.com/6838nat )
Is there something wrong with this picture? C. Peter Wagner taught courses on divine healing, but he doesn’t have the gift of healing. Hmmm, perhaps he should enroll in his own course.

Shout out to C. Peter Wagner: Instructor, instruct thyself. Stop leading the sick and dying astray, and stop instructing a course on a gift you never had in the first place. Better yet, repent, be born again, publicly renounce the NAR and its false “Jesus,” and warn your fellow NARians to do the same.

Indeed, precious souls for who Jesus Christ died for hang in the balance.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness'” (Matthew 7:21-23).

More on C Peter Wagner’s Now Infamous Letter

In a recent letter, C Peter Wagner did a bit of lying about his own organization and its  heavy connection with American politics. After posting the letter I received some great comments (see the link above), and I put the matter aside (what’s new with this, nothing changes) but realized I was wrong in that wimpy thinking.

The following work is not my own, but I am bringing it to your attention because it needs to get out there as many times as we can get it out. Maybe someone caught up in the NAR/Self-Appointed Apostolic/False Prophetic/Imagined Strategic Spiritual Warfare/having the same power as God ~ manifesting false signs and wonders ~~that is Latter Rain/Dominion/Kingdom Now/7 Mountains from where we will rule America and the world will see the truth; maybe even Peter Wagner himself.

I am amazed at the work done by Orrel Steinkemp. I have found that in reading his articles I learn from his footnotes too! Here is a bit from a 2001 article of his debunking Wagner’s recent lie the NAR has no membership, and a little laying out of his plan 10 years ago to form the NAR!~

The Apostles Are Coming To Your City, Ready or Not
by Orell Steinkamp, The Plumbline, Vol. 6, No. 2, March/April 2001


In a previous issue of PLUMBLINE, I described the efforts of C. Peter Wagner to create a New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) which he predicts will be even greater in scope and significance than the Protestant Reformation of the 1500’s.  The centerpiece of the movement is the purported restoration, by God, of the NT office-gift of “Apostle’ to the end-time church.

Now Wagner and his apostolic buddies are attempting to move from vision to reality.  In an article titled, APOSTOLIC REFORMATION on his Website http://www.globalharvestministries.org he reveals moves that are currently underway, to implement his apostolic reformation.  In this article he restates the goals and also the preliminary means to implement them.

Goal:

Wagner asserts: NAR is an extra-ordinary work of God at the close of the 20th century that to a significant extent is changing the shape of Protestant Christianity around the world.  For almost 500 years Christian churches have largely functioned with traditional denominational structures of one kind or another.  Within this reformation, Wagner sees a growing recognition of present day apostolic ministries who are giving birth to their own family of leaders and churches to whom they have a relational commitment.  Within New Apostolic Christianity, this governmental authority is being exercised in the local church by the pastor and on a translocal level by apostles who operate with a relational authority.  Wagner sees what is happening in the NAR as key to world harvest.

Wagner sees apostles as being at the peak of their (own) networks and the people in their networks as accountable to them.  It is here in the article that the accountability of the apostles is addressed and Wagner begins to refer to the means of implementing the apostolic structure.

Implementation:

The New Apostolic Roundtable:

Wagner is personally involved in an accountability structure called the “New Apostolic Roundtable.” Twenty-five apostles were invited to join as members and they plan to meet together annually, the week after Easter.  Eventually, the names of the roundtable will be made public.

The International Coalition of Apostles:

Because this movement is growing so rapidly around the world, Wagner also sees a need for a larger kind of structure.  As a result he and a number of others have formed what they call the International Coalition of Apostles.  They have sent out their first invitations in January of this year and have just passed one hundred and fifty
members.  Wagner expects that they will ultimately attract from five hundred to one thousand members (solicited by invitation
only). They plan to hold an annual meeting along with occasional regional summits across America and around the world.

Link to continue reading

From here, and not for the first time, I highly recommend the many articles offered by Herescope. This is a good one in the series to start with – C Peter Wagner Spins the NAR.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

C Peter Wagner in His Own Defense

Some time back I was hit with quite a bit more traffic than usual and was able to trace it back to an online magazine called Al Jezeera. There I found an interesting article regarding Rick Perry and the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR). The reason for my traffic was a link AJ made to one of the articles on my blog. So, it was with great interest that I just happened to find the following info in a google search!  Thought you’d like to see it for yourselves if you haven’t already.

C. Peter Wagner is speaking out against those who revealed what he stands for; dominionism, taking biblical control of the world by force via the seven mountains of influence, and the joining of the NAR to political America.

Volumes have been written already in exposing the false doctrine of the NAR, the organization behind what has become to be considered mainline Christianity. While some of the things that are said up front sound right, a close study of the bible and a comparison to God’s word with Wagner’s books reveal a completely different doctrine. I consider his teachings and all of the NAR activity to be doctrine of demons. (if you are one of his followers, please do some prayerful research!)

Wagner also did a bit of back-peddling after endorsing the apostate preacher Todd Bentley during the Lakeland fiasco, once it was found to be exactly that – a fiasco.

Earlier, a fellow blogger pointed out that the previously published NAR – Apostle/Prophet list I linked to another article here on my blog had disappeared. This was a handy link to have as it made it quite easy to find out if those we trust and take our doctrine from were part of the NAR. My search to find an updated copy revealed that the list is now only available to members!  See here – International Coalition of Apostles.

What could they be hiding? Maybe there is something to the fact that Chuck Pierce held some meetings last year in a Masonic Temple…Secret Societies.

Read on...I’d love your input!

___

THE NEW APOSTOLIC REFORMATION

An Update by C. Peter Wagner, Ph.D.

THE NEW APOSTOLIC REFORMATION

August 18,2011

Surprisingly, the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) has recently become a topic of discussion in the political media. I noticed some mention of it in connection with Sarah Palin’s run for Vice-President, but I considered it relatively insignificant. Then more talk of the NAR surfaced around Michelle Bachman, but it soared to a new level when Rick Perry entered the race for the Republican nomination for President in August. The best I can discern, the NAR has become a tool in the hands of certain liberal opponents of the conservative candidates designed to discredit them on the basis of their friendship with certain Christian leaders supposedly affiliated with the NAR. To bolster this attempt, they seek to accuse the NAR of teaching false doctrine and paste on it the label of “cult.” For example, Forgotten Word Ministries posts an article by Marsha West expressing concerns about Rick Perry’s prayer assembly in Houston on August 6, that uses the title: “Texas Governor’s Upcoming Leadership Event Includes Cult Members.”[1]

Soon after the event, nothing less than Al Jazeera News picked up on the theme and posted an article on the NAR under the title “America’s own Taliban.” My name comes up in most of the Internet postings on NAR, but in this one I am called the “intellectual godfather” of the movement.[2] When I read that, I felt that I had a responsibility to attempt to bring some clarification as to what the NAR is, what are its goals, and how these goals are being implemented. That is why I am writing this brief paper.

What Is the NAR?

The NAR is definitely not a cult. Those who affiliate with it believe the Apostles’ Creed and all the standard classic statements of Christian doctrine. It will surprise some to know that the NAR embraces the largest non-Catholic segment of world Christianity. It is also the fastest growing segment, the only segment of Christianity currently growing faster than the world population and faster than Islam.[3] Christianity is booming now in the Global South which includes sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, and large parts of Asia. Most of the new churches in the Global South, even including many which belong to denominations, would comfortably fit the NAR template.

The NAR represents the most radical change in the way of doing church since the Protestant Reformation. This is not a doctrinal change. We adhere to the major tenets of the Reformation: the authority of Scripture, justification by faith, and the priesthood of all believers. But the quality of church life, the governance of the church, the worship, the theology of prayer, the missional goals, the optimistic vision for the future, and other features, constitute quite a change from traditional Protestantism.

The NAR is not an organization. No one can join or carry a card. It has no leader. I have been called the “founder,” but this is not the case. One reason I might be seen as an “intellectual godfather” is that I might have been the first to observe the movement, give a name to it, and describe its characteristics as I saw them. When this began to come together through my research in 1993, I was Professor of Church Growth at Fuller Theological Seminary, where I taught for 30 years. The roots of the NAR go back to the beginning of the African Independent Church Movement in 1900, the Chinese House Church Movement beginning in 1976, the U.S. Independent Charismatic Movement beginning in the 1970s and the Latin American Grassroots Church Movement beginning around the same time. I was neither the founder nor a member of any of these movements, I was simply a professor who observed that they were the fastest growing churches in their respective regions and that they had a number of common characteristics.

If I was going to write about this phenomenal move of the Holy Spirit, I knew I had to give it a name. I tried “Postdenominational” but soon dropped it because of the objections of many of my friends who were denominational executives. Then, in 1994, I tested “New Apostolic Reformation.” “Reformation” because the movement matched the Protestant Reformation in world impact; “Apostolic” because of all the changes the most radical one was apostolic governance, which I’ll explain in due time; and “New” because several churches and denominations already carried the name “apostolic,” but they did not fit the NAR pattern. Other names of this movement which are more or less synonymous with NAR have been “Neopentecostal,” “Neocharismatic,” “Independent,” or “Nondenominational.”

I am rather fascinated at the lists of individuals whom the media glibly connects with the NAR. I’m sure that some of them wouldn’t even recognize the term. In many cases, however, they would fit the NAR template, but since the NAR has no membership list they themselves would need to say whether they consider themselves affiliated or not.

For those who might be interested in such things, the books I have written related to NAR include The New Apostolic Churches (1998); Churchquake! (1999); Apostles and Prophets (2000), Changing Church (2004); and Apostles Today (2006). These are all available on amazon.com.

Concerns about the NAR

If the critics are using openness to NAR as a slur against conservative political candidates, they obviously need to verbalize what could be wrong with NAR in the first place. To suppose that NAR is a “cult” or that it teaches “heresy” can be attributed only to sloppy or immature journalism. All too often “heresy” has come to mean only that the person disagrees with me and my friends, but the purpose of using the word is to project guilt by association on the politician. It attempts to implant a question: Who would vote for a heretic? But there is little evidence presented that the issue in question incorporates the doctrinal unorthodoxy of a true heresy. Instead, key words are usually dropped which describe legitimate areas of disagreement among Christian theologians on the level of whether or not we baptize infants. Neither of the opposite positions on matters like this deserve to be placed in the category of heresy.

Let me review the media pieces I have collected and pick out some key words in order to clarify my position. I say “my position,” because others in NAR might not agree with me, and they are not compelled to do so. NAR has no official statements of theology or ecclesiology, although a large number of us do happen to agree upon many somewhat radical conclusions. Most of us have long track records of service within traditional Christianity, and we have needed to go through paradigm shifts to get where we are now. Keep in mind that one of the affects of every paradigm shift is that some people get pulled out of their comfort zones. One of the reasons for opposition to some of the more radical ideas of NAR is that certain people have decided not to change and they are upset with those who have chosen to change.
Apostolic governance.As I mentioned before, this is probably the most radical change. I take literally St. Paul’s words that Jesus, at His ascension into heaven, “gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry” (Ephesians 4:11-12). Most of traditional Christianity accepts evangelists, pastors, and teachers, but not apostles and prophets. I think that all five are given to be active in churches today. In fact, St. Paul goes on to say, “And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers…” (1 Corinthians 12:28). This does not describe a hierarchy, but a divine order. Apostles are first in that order.
I strongly object to journalists using the adjective “self-appointed” or “self-declared” when referring to apostles. No true apostle is self-appointed. First of all, they are gifted by God for that ministry. Secondly, the gift and its fruit are recognized by peers and the apostle is “set in” or “commissioned” to the office of apostle by other respected and qualified leaders.

The office of prophet. Prophets are prominent in the Bible, both in the Old Testament and in the New Testament. As we just saw above, apostles are first and prophets are second. Every apostle needs alignment with prophets and every prophet needs apostolic alignment. One of the reasons why both should be active in our churches today is that the Bible says, “Surely God does nothing unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets” (Amos 3:7). And also: “Believe in the Lord your God and you shall be established; believe His prophets and you shall prosper” (2 Chronicles 20:20). I want to prosper and I want you to prosper.

Dominionism. This refers to the desire that some of my friends and I have to follow Jesus and do what He wants. One of the things He does want He taught us to pray for in the Lord’s Prayer: “Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” This means that we do our best to see that what we know is characteristic of heaven work its way into the warp and woof of our society here on earth. Think of heaven: no injustice, no poverty, righteousness, peace, prosperity, no disease, love, no corruption, no crime, no misery, no racism, and I could go on. Wouldn’t you like your city to display those characteristics?

But where does dominion come in? On the first page of the Bible, God told Adam and Eve to “fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, etc.” (Genesis 1:28). Adam, Eve, and the whole human race were to take dominion over the rest of creation, but Satan entered the picture, succeeded in usurping Adam’s dominion for himself and became what Jesus calls “the ruler of this world” (John 14:30). When Jesus came, he brought the kingdom of God and He expects His kingdom-minded people to take whatever action is needed to push back the long-standing kingdom of Satan and bring the peace and prosperity of His kingdom here on earth. This is what we mean by dominionism.

A theocracy. The usual meaning of theocracy is that a nation is run by authorized representatives of the church or its functional religious equivalent. Everyone I know in NAR would absolutely reject this idea, thinking back to Constantine’s failed experiment or some of the oppressive Islamic governments today. The way to achieve dominion is not to become “America’s Taliban,” but rather to have kingdom-minded people in every one of the Seven Mountains: Religion, Family, Education, Government, Media, Arts & Entertainment, and Business so that they can use their influence to create an environment in which the blessings and prosperity of the Kingdom of God can permeate all areas of society.

Extra-biblical revelation. Some object to the notion that God communicates directly with us, supposing that everything that God wanted to reveal He revealed in the Bible. This cannot be true, however, because there is nothing in the Bible that says it has 66 books. It actually took God a couple of hundred years to reveal to the church which writings should be included in the Bible and which should not. That is extra-biblical revelation. Even so, Catholics and Protestants still disagree on the number. Beyond that, I believe that prayer is two way, we speak to God and expect Him to speak with us. We can hear God’s voice. He also reveals new things to prophets as we have seen. The one major rule governing any new revelation from God is that it cannot contradict what has already been written in the Bible. It may supplement it, however.

Supernatural signs and wonders. I have a hard time understanding why some include this in their list of “heresies.” Whenever Jesus sent out His disciples he told them to heal the sick and cast out demons. Why we should expect that He has anything else in mind for us today is puzzling. True, this still pulls some traditionalists out of their comfort zones, but that just goes with the territory. One critic claimed that the NAR has excessive fixation on Satan and demonic spirits. This is purely a judgment call, and it may only mean that we cast out more demons than they do. So what?

Relational Structures

Some of the authors I read expressed certain frustrations because they found it difficult to get their arms around the NAR. They couldn’t find a top leader or even a leadership team. There was no newsletter. The NAR didn’t have an annual meeting. There was no printed doctrinal statement or code of ethics. This was very different from dealing with traditional denominations. The reason behind this is that, whereas denominations are legal structures, the NAR is a relational structure. Everyone is related to, or aligned, with an apostle or apostles. This alignment is voluntary. There is no legal tie that binds it. In fact, some have dual alignment or multiple alignment. Apostles are not in competition with each other, they are in cahoots. They do not seek the best for themselves, but for those who choose to align with them. If the spotlight comes on them, they will accept it, but they do not seek it.

The key to this? The mutual and overriding desire that “Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven!”

-end-

[1]http://www.forgottenword.org/leadershipevent.html

[2]http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/07/20117259426336524.html

[3]David B. Barrett, et. al.,  eds., World Christian Encyclopedia,, Volume 1, Oxford UK: Oxford University Press, 2001, p. 4

In Blindness and In Rebellion

Remember this –

Someone brought this to my attention the other day –

I’ve already posted this in a comment –

This is demonic possession. It is time to stop fooling around and dancing around the things that have become so clear. It is bad enough to see grown men and women (of which I was one) do these things. We already know it has spread into the youth because of the long-standing and heretical Joel’s Army. But, oh, these are small children, still babies!

False doctrine breeds heresy.

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting.; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness, they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteousness judgement of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same, but also approve of those who practice them.

Matthew 18:4 “Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

:6 Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Have we lost a fear of God? I believe so. People who practice these things  no longer consider the truth in scripture. Even those who do not do these things, encourage those who do and make excuses for them, twisting the scriptures to say things they do not. They are just as blind as those who do, and in rebellion just the same.

This is madness.

Consider the second video in which these little children are laying hands on grown men who fall to the floor. In a previous conversation with another, I was given the following scriptures to support these goings on.

Please also take the time to read the surrounding scriptures to see the context. It is important to see the details.

Rev.1:17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.”

This is an account of John who was a disciple of Jesus, exiled for his faith to the island of Patmos. John is receiving a vision of things to come  – aka the book of The Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Ezekiel 1:28 Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. So when I saw it, I fell on my face and I heard a voice of One speaking.

Let’s look at the next section, Chapter 2:1 And He said to me, Son of man, stand on your feet, and I will speak to you.

Daniel 8:17,18 So he came near where I stood and when he came I was afraid and fell on my face; but he said to me; “Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end.” 18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me, and stood upright.

All of these men were taken into supernatural experiences for God’s purposes.  When they fell, it was out of fear. What happened? They were told to not fear. They were made to stand upright. These were not just experiences of visions or visitations, but were important meetings to establish words of scripture!

They were not children.

They were not women.

They were not aided by another human.

They were not anointed with manufactured oil.

No one laid hands on them.

No one blew thier stinky breath on them.

No one waved their arms or jumped up and down in front of them.

They were not in meetings, conferences or gatherings.

They had not been in extended ecstatic worship.

No one taught them these things in classrooms or organized training.

What was the direction in which they fell? Forward – on their faces.

These events were initiated by God, not men.

Let me stress one more time – grown men, not children, not children, not children.

Now, if you cannot see the difference between the happenings in the videos and the scriptures here by my writing and the points I have made, and you believe you are born again, then I urge you to repent for your blindness and your rebellion to God. The differences are like night and day.

Bethel’s Jesus Culture Awakening

Jesus Culture Awakening – Bethel (from Inerrant Word)

Well, there is an event starting today called the Jesus Culture Awakening in Chicago. Jesus Culture are essentially the worship band from Bill Johnson’s Bethel church. This is a dangerous group to be associated with and to be caught up in – I know!

I have had personal experience with the effect of Jesus Culture and Bethel when my wife was caught up in their music and teaching. You can find her testimony (4 parts) of how she got out from under their influence here, here, here, and here.

There is something insidious about Bethel and its associates. Often they appear at face value, to say Christian things and they even appear convincing (though there are some so ludicrous that it is a wonder anyone buys into them). But, for me, I was often left with a very ill feeling in my gut. Then when you start hearing some of the quotes from people like Bill Johnson who say that if we preach a message which allows for sickness, we preach another gospel (in reference to Galatians 1:8). There are plenty of youtube videos which show this.

For the message of Bethel is this: health and wealth, sign and wonders are what God does for you. You should be seeking after these things and if they are not abounding in your life, then something is desperately wrong! They will deny it of course: “we never say such a thing!” Not outright but it permeates their sermons, and messages. It is clear, unless you are experience all manner of odd things and signs and wonders etc, then you are in trouble.

Their ministry has such things as “healing rooms”, soaking, etc. You can read some very interesting reviews of these here.

I know that my wife turned from being a joyful, contented mother and wife into an aggressive, belligerent, and antagonistic woman. I have had people say, “oh, she must have just got carried away” or the like. The fact is, she was not alone. I know several other people personally who got caught up with this sort of thing. They acted and changed in the same way. The fruit of the Spirit goes out the door. Jesus and the Word being the sufficient and satisfying saviour and focus has gone too. Instead this obsession with miracles, angle feathers, gold dust etc replaces it. There is no contentment – only a desire for greater and more fantastic “miracles”. A desire which becomes absolutely consuming.

Now some of the people whom they associate with are very dangerous. People like Todd Bentley, John Crowder, Joshua Mills etc. If you have not heard, Todd Bentley has been involved in a crazy, signs and wonders revival in Lakeland in the recent past. During which it turned out he had an inappropriate relationship with one of his staff (while he was married) and then he ended up divorcing quickly and marrying this girl. I believe there were other issues he suffered with at the same time. While this was happening (and before it was publicly known), Bill Johnson and other extreme Pentecostal heavyweights laid hands on him in service and proclaimed God’s anointing on him and how he was doing great things for the Lord and would outshine Moses etc. Well, if they were speaking for God (which clearly they were not for they are false prophets) surely He would have warned them to provide Todd help in the very least? But no, it appears they use God as a means to gain.

John Crowder is as weird as they come. He refers to himself as a “new mystic”. The only word I can use to give him justice is blaspheming heretic. I have seen him do things which would make your hair stand on end! Things like sucking the anointing from people in graves like a vacuum, smoking “holy ghost” drugs (toking the ghost he calls it), falling around like a drunkard (calling it the drunken glory of the lord). He speaks heretical trash and the most shocking thing is not necessarily the things he says and does (for we have always had nutcases around) it is the fact that so many people follow him and show themselves to be undiscerning, ignorant, and deceived. One day, he will give an account to the Lord and it will not be pretty! You can look up multitudes of videos on you tube which show off the show that is John Crowder. Here are some interesting reviews of this man, his ministry, and his behaviour (there are many more if you type his name into Google): Apologetics Index, Slaughter of the Sheep, and Apprising Ministries.

So these are the people that Bill Johnson relate with and associate with. Dangerous people who would lead the flock astray and bring them to calamity.

But some great sites which have a lot of information about Bill Johnson, his associates and their teachings are Heralding Truth, M’Kayla’s Korner, Closing Stages, Apprising and Crosswise. There are multitudes of articles, reviews, comments, and testimonies.

All I can say, is be careful of this ministry and his teachings. Make sure that you test the spirits (1John 4:1) and do not let anyone tell you to let go of your mind etc. God created us a rational, thinking, creatures whom he commanded to worship in spirit and TRUTH (John 4:23). He tells us many times to test what we hear (Acts 17:11, Rev 2:2) to know if it is truth or heresy. My wife’s testimony provides some links in there to a post on a blog which helped her incredibly when she realised what was happening to her. I pray that you also will benefit from this.

The best thing I can encourage surrounding this event is that even if you are curious or you have friends of family going, run! Do not go. I beg you to avoid this event at all costs for it is dangerous. I am not someone who has taken these people out of context – their ministry, life and teaching is out of context. You can find multitudes of material on them and what they teach in proper context in their books, sermons etc which are easily accessible. The mounting evidence of their false teaching is damning.

I pray God gives you wisdom and discernment and if you are caught up in this stuff, I pray He would open your eyes and draw your heart back to Him!

_________________

Before you go, take a look to see what the children at Bethel are being taught. This video is a couple years old and was brought to my attention on a comment. – I was floored at the complete lack of reverence and respect for God, Jesus Christ, spiritual authority and the bible! What will become of these children?  Some scary stuff happening. 

the road again to tyranny

We’ve often discussed the NAR and dominion theology. Now, we see it come together again, heightened and powerful~ ~

PJ at Sola Dei Gloria put up an article regarding the upcoming

Awakening 2011

As American Christians it is important to know what our leaders and presidential hopefuls are up to. After you read her comments please go to their website. You will note again the joining of the false prophets and apostles of the NAR, para-church organizations and the American people. It is a shame that so many have joined together in complete blindness to the truth. This is where “America as a Christian Nation” has taken us and it is not the place we truly want to be.

The teachings of the Christian faith is about freedom to worship God in spirit and in truth. It is about salvation in that God came to earth in the form of a man to die for all sinners so that through Christ they could have a relationship with Him.  It is our place to preach that gospel to all creatures, but to do so in purity of its message.  We know that one day Christ will return, there will be a new earth that will be created by Him. Until that day comes there will not be true peace. God does not want us to set up a kingdom here on earth – He wants us to save souls.

The writings of our constitution are about freedom to live lives that we choose without government involvement or force of action. Men died putting these freedoms together for us so that we could live outside the rule of tyranny.

These people coming together have a different idea, in that they wish to force their beliefs on the American people under the guise of Christianity. This is dominion theology in action. It is not Christianity and it is very dangerous to our freedom. Please take the time to think clearly. It looks like a warm fuzzy, meant for the good of all moment. It is not.

I would sincerely appreciate any additional information you can send in to help everyone have eyes to see.

Mike Huckabee Another Wannabee

Forced at gunpoint, huh? Not biblical, not American. I can’t believe this has come out of a man who used to preach the truth. (Assuming what he preached was the truth!)

Now he’s just rubbin’ elbows and doin’ the good – ol’ – buddy punch with those who will help him get to where he wants. It is a sad day when preachers swap the pulpit for a shot at the White House. It’s even worse when they manipulate their way up.

I’m thinking NAR….7 Mountains…

Pull the trig, I won’t listen.

Resources from Roger Oakland

Some free resources to help you – highly recommend! 🙂

Understanding the Times – Roger Oakland

Jude 3-4

3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

out of the fire –

A Dangerous Journey

At the beginning of 2010 I decided I wanted to get involved in a more passionate “Christianity”. I have always thought of myself as a worshipper & I craved being around others who lived & breathed worshipping the Lord.

Our church had been *pushing* & wanting revival to break out. So naturally I went home one day and decided to research about what “revival” actually was and how we could get it!  Through my discoveries I found out about The Welsh Revival, Charles Finney and others.

I wanted *revival* to break out in our church. The more I read about the “amazing” things that happened in Wales, the more I wanted that to happen to us.

This is a four-part testimony of a fellow blogger who the Lord delivered from what she calls “extreme Pentecostalism”.  Please go to Inerrant Word to read her story.

These are moments of rejoicing as we see the Lord pulls another out of the fire of false teaching and the grip of the demonic spirit.

Thank you Lord God for your faithfulness toward your own.