so let’s hash it out…

I love to write, to ponder, to hash things out, to dig into research and find answers to things that interest and bug me. I always have an opinion and so do you!

Having recently come out of “charismania“, I would like to share my experiences and what I have learned from them.  Anyone who is interested in finding the truth is welcome and encouraged to join in.  I did not come out of this alone. I had many “helpers”, other Christians with similar experiences who know and value the word of God above all else, who are willing to speak the truth. So, I too join their ranks to freely give what I have been given.

We will look at  the various areas of false and extreme “Christian” teachings that many of us have been taught and have followed for some time and compare them to what the word of God has to say. You may be shocked as I was, to find that the teachings of many are not biblical, and from there you will find a dividing line, a choice to be made. Will you continue to follow what is false, what you know to be “safe” in its familiarity, will you be a follower of man, or will you risk all – your ministry, your reputation, your friendships, and one day maybe even your very life to follow Christ?  These are becoming perilous, dangerous times to be called by His name.

You can read about the vision I had in 2002, shortly after the death of my 19 year old daughter, Jessica, entitled, His Hands that Held You.  Bring tissues.

I have a little of a political slant so we will look at some of that too.  And who knows what else will come of this adventure.

I moderate comments, so anything brash or too ugly or profane will not be allowed to post.  Please respect the feelings of others, even in disagreement, knowing that God gives us the choice to live how we decide.  It will be to Him that we will give an answer to later on. So, let’s play nicely with the other kids.

I welcome you all in this journey we already share. I hope you find peace and freedom that comes from above in knowing the real, the one and only Jesus Christ.

Make sure that the light you think you have is not actually darkness. Luke 11:35

m’kayla

303 thoughts on “so let’s hash it out…

  1. Hello Mkayla
    I want to thank you for sharing with me your Blog it might help me to write some things down, I sure need it these days….!
    thank you again…

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    • I just saw a youtube where Randy Clark supposedly healed a boy of deafness . I have never believed the Toronto-Bethel movement to be scriptural, but I’m not sure how to answer the friend who posted it. I wonder where the boy is now or if false healings can take place ?

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      • Brenda, anywhere we see false doctrine, all else is to be questioned. It is sad to see so much focus on healing and not so much on salvation or scripture in it’s proper context.

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        • I heard of a man, a long time ago, who was saved through the preaching of a horse back riding circuit rider. But later doubted his salvation because the preacher turned out to be a horse thief! Was the man saved? I think so, if he believed the Word of God, of course. God said “my word shall not return unto me void.” Just even reading and believing the Bible can get you saved, healed, get you on God’s side, etc!

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          • Of that I have no doubt. My concern is when someone is “saved” under the teachings of the “other jesus” and follows that path, rather than the true biblical one.

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            • I think the part about the “other Jesus” is best understood if one can hold their breath long enough to sit through a service at the Vineyard and at the end see a number of people go forward to accept Christ. But it appears there is very little if any follow up for these people afterward. I had no control over this because everything has to be just so “neat and tidy” and it takes an act of congress to get the attention of the pastors. That’s why I have asked a number of their pastors to step down! That included Rich Nathan, the big senior pastor, a jewish Christian who went to religion at Case Western Reserve, and that is a theological “cemetery.”
              Just numbers and that’s all, to the glory and honor of Rich and his community country club.

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      • I agree with the lack of balance. Today Matthew 7, 22-23 rang very true to me. Many will say to me in that day-‘ Lord, Lord have we not prophesied, cast out demons, and done many wonderful works in your name ?’ Jesus replies,’ Depart from me ,I never knew you, you workers of iniquity.’ Lying signs & wonders. There definitely is real dark power as we saw with Moses & the sorcerers. Thanks for providing a place of affirmation for those of us that have to deal with people/friends who are into this movement. Hugs !

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        • Satan can perform miracles and no doubt he will do so if he get that mindset into the many charismatics who see healings and all the emotional stuff to be viewed as absolutely coming from the hand of God. I see these things as a set up for the coming apostacy. I’m new to this site. Love M’kayla’s scripture quote on the home page– all believers should examine ourselves to be sure our light is the true.

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          • Yes, Satan sure can! ‘The ruler of this world’ – temp position, no upgrades or bonus, no retirement pension – works through any that are ‘open’, as with the so-called Divine Light Mission’s’ ‘Guru’ Maraji Ji, who once did a ‘miracle’ on hundreds in my presence.
            I didn’t know at the time he was doing a combo of ‘Breathing the [a!] Spirit’ on us, & instant DMT/LSD rush – but he never touched one of us nor were we drugged or in anyway ‘tampered’ with physically.
            And what’s the worst thing about all this?: It’s all firmly in the church today, as I immediately found out when leaving the so-called ‘New-Age’ behind and becoming a Bible-believing Christian….

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      • Healings do take place and are legitimate but it is not the person that heals. It is in the heart of the believer just as the woman that touched the hem of Jesus garment and was healed of a blood disease. Jesus said to her “Go in peace, your faith has made you well. Now it is true that some “healings” are faked. Like a child wearing braces, can be trained to take a few wobbly steps and then take off running. So I am careful not to pay attention to people like the late Oral Roberts, Leroy Jenkins, or any of that bunch, or Rod Parsley of the World Harvest Church, with all his wealth and a private jet….. So be careful of the Vineyard. I got out, just get the heck out of there. Find a small church. These big ones cause me grief. Been there , done that, Drove me into alcoholism until I found AA.

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    • I recently resigned membership from a Vineyard megachurch in Columbus, Ohio. If some would notice it, the sign, Vineyard, just keep on going. It’s basically a death trap and a false religion. I know about John Wimber. He is a fake person, now is deceased, but many carry on in the thousands, like 8500 in this congregation. People are hungry for God and get mixed up in this place but it is not the place to be unless one has a death wish. I heard a recent report from a uniformed police officer who had a good friend go there for help. They treated her so badly that she committed suicide. No thanks to Rich Nathan and crew!

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  2. Hey Mkayla,

    I know this is so shallow and not blog-worthy, but you look beautiful in your photo and it does bring the “Thinker” to mind. I have neglected my gift of writing for so long, it seems like a muscle which has atrophied. I hope to read more of your blog and be inspired to comment and post as well. I would love to find the false doctrines I have thought to be true… such as worm theology. I have a dear friend who got very caught up in the Kingdom Theology and I am not sure how well it treated her… but she like you is a digger and thinker. I just know that the demons around false doctrine and prophecy are so active that Paul, Peter and John warned about them. Please share some of your thoughts so I can compare. Truth is there, but the lie must be exposed to give me a jumping off point- you know? Thanks and much love and admiration, Shawn.

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    • Shawn, I was just reading again your comment and found that I missed this point.

      I would love to find the false doctrines I have thought to be true… such as worm theology.

      What is “worm theology”?
      🙂

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      • I’m not sure whether you looked into this at all mkayla, but I also had never heard of worm theology and did a bit of research (albeit limited, as there doesn’t seem to be a lot of information out there).

        In a nutshell, it seems to be the idea that God will show compassion to those who maintain a low view of themselves. Crudely speaking, that low self esteem is desirable, a kind of warped interpretation of our need for humility and the danger of pride and arrogance.

        The exact term “worm” is often thought to have originated from the line of a hymn “Would he devote that sacred head for such a worm as I?” Putting this aside for a moment, since we don’t look at hymns as the authorative source of truth, we are apparently meant to believe that certain scriptures support this theology.

        For example Psalm 22:8 begins “But I am a worm and not a man.” But exactly how this could ever be interpreted as representing a desirable state of mind escapes me. The context of this sentence is a Psalm that commences, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me,” and then develops into the most despairing petition imaginable by one who has reached such emotional depths as to feel totally alienated from God. Whether or not one believes that Psalm 22 is prophetic of Christ’s suffering, I simply cannot understand how anyone could understand the anguished statement “But I am a worm and not a man” to be an objective truth.

        Incredibly I did run into at least one poor soul citing Job 25:6, “How much less man, who is but a maggot – a son of man, who is only a worm.” Again, given the whole context of the book of Job how on earth can any rational person perceive the discourses of Bildab to be an objective truth around which we should build a doctrine? In God’s own words in Job 42:7, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.”

        Anyway, I don’t purport to understand the whole theology as it is not really familiar to me. I get an impression of something like the psychological equivalent to flagellation to be honest.

        God certainly saw our worth as being sufficient to warrant the death of His son on a cross. In fact Paul says in Acts 13:46, “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.” It seems that to not understand our own worth in the eyes of God can have rather serious consequences!

        There may been a time in my life when I was so low as to see myself as having the worth of a worm or a maggot, but I praise my heavenly Father that he saw me as anything but!

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        • I haven’t looked into it and this is quite a bit to think about. I think it is safe to say that anything which exalts mankind over God, pride, entitlement, etc. should be avoided. It is true God must love us a bunch to endure what He did on the cross knowing full well how He would be treated by those He died for. Agape love is nearly incomprehensible to us, impossible without Him. But in looking at all He is, all He created, endured and all that is to come, we truly are nothing in comparison. Through Christ we are accepted by God – forgiven and allowed to experience life with Him eternally. Nothing we can do comes close to all that He is.

          Blessings. 🙂

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  3. Shawn, how good it is to have you here!

    I understand about the neglect of writing. While I was under the influence of “the demon” I lost interest in several things that were once important to me. I have found them slowly returning; one of which is the writing. I feel like I woke up from a very bad dream and am just shaking off the effects. Getting out was a horrendous struggle and I had just started coming out when I met you last year.

    The false teaching of latter rain, kingdom now/dominionism, word of faith is what I was involved in, found in the (false) prophetic movement, healing room ministry, spiritual warfare, etc. The topics listed under Curses, Holy Spirit and Healing refute some of the false doctrine and claims interwoven in these “movements”. So, as you read through those writings you will see the claims of man against the truth given in the Bible. This is the same information that I e-mailed out, originally written in the document Spiritual Truths for the members of the prayer and healing rooms ministry I was involved with for 2 ½ years.

    “The lie” comes from scripture, twisted, taken out of context to support what I believe are doctrines of demons. These teachings create a huge following, making their teachers, evangelists, apostles and prophets very famous and rich! And, they are very dangerous because they are so close to the truth, but they are not truth. We are deceived in thinking they “know” what we do not as though they have received some higher level of revelation. And yes, as you pointed out, there are many warnings in the NT about false teachers, prophets and false doctrine. Many are being deceived and can’t or won’t see it. My fear is they will be lost, following a messiah who is not the Christ, as they believe. Many believe we are experiencing the falling away.

    2 Timothy 4:3-5
    3 For a time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers: 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

    I hope you find what you are looking for. If not, let me know. I will be adding topics regularly.

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  4. Hi Mkayla, I found you! Yeah! Love the post. You said it so well. As a writer I find myself at times becoming so overwhelmed with what is going on in all arenas, that it becomes hard to put my thoughts in words. Does that happen to you?

    Anyway, I can not wait to see more of your ponderings and writings. You go girl. Love ya!

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    • Thanks. I didn’t do much writing on the emergent church, but used the work and research of others who have much more insight and wisdom in that area. Either way, I am glad it touched you and I know those authors would feel the same. Praise to the Lord. 🙂

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  5. M’Kayla…. so glad you are blogging. I have seen some of your posts over at ETPW.
    Is there a way I can email you to ask a specific question? Or feel free to email me with an email you use for such things.

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    • Hello ruthsongs!

      Just use the blog to ask whatever question you have. I moderate all comments before they get posted.

      Thanks! 🙂

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  6. I appreciate the authentic narrative. Are you interested in dialogue/participation from someone who holds similar objections, but still is connected to various groups you have mentioned?

    Essentially, I agree with a lot of your indicts. Yet I find the connections to the heresy, false spirits etc. lacking a scriptural or reasonable warrant. I am interested in discussion and have no “trolllike” agenda.

    If you post this, I’ll take it as a yes.

    DISCLAIMER: Jesus is Lord 🙂

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  7. I am so happy to have found this blog. I left my church very recently for reasons unrelated to doctrine- long story. Now I am coming to discover that what I have been learning for years may be false doctrine. There was always scripture in the messages that seemed to support what my pastor was saying, and I am loyal to a fault, so I never considerd that he may not have been hearing from God. I guess the Lord had to lead me out of the church through other circumstances before showing me the deception, or I probably never would have believed it.

    Now that I am out, I feel like I’ve had to break away from a cult. I’ve struggled with fears that I am one of “the decieved” Jesus talked about (a common theme @ my old church) now that I am not in on the “new thing” that God is doing today. I know that is a lie, and I am saved by grace through the blood of Jesus, but after a lifetime of being told that I was a part of an elect body, it’s hard to shake those thoughts. I have lots to process, and although I thought I was “in the Word” a lot, in actuality I was reading more so-called Christian books than the bible itself. I am now reading the bible everyday and asking God to sort out the truth from the lies that I have ingested.

    I have lots of questions, but I will ask just one for now. Bear with me as I set the scenario: Often in my old church, we would experience what was called a move of the Spirit- speaking in tongues, being slain in the spirit, words of knowledge, visions, etc. When someone would question it, citing no such activity could be found in the bible, often Isaiah 43:18-19 (“Forget the former things; do not dwell on the past. See, I am doing a new thing…) was be quoted. The message was that if you did not accept God’s “new thing” that you were operating in fear, and that you were preventing God from moving in your life. If that was rebutted by stating that in Isaiah God was speaking specifically to Isreal about their journey to restoration, they would say that we can apply those verses to our lives too, just like we do Jeremiah 29:11 and many of the Psalms. That sounded good to me, but now I see that using the Isaiah passage is a license to accept anything that happens as God’s “new thing” as long as it is deemed so by the leadership. And yes, I was told to “test the spirits” but with a loophole that large, how do you do that?

    Oh dear, as I reread this, it seems a bit like a jumbled mess. Perhaps that’s an accurate reflection of my mind right now as I am rethinking everything I learned from my pastor of 20 years. I hope you can make sense of my question! 🙂

    God bless you, and I will definitely be keeping up with this blog!

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    • Hi Diane
      You ARE of the elect, 1 Peter 2:9-10 :), not because of a church or a movement, but because your name is written in the Lamb’s book of life. You are His. You are free, be at peace in the knowledge that the Lord is with you. Praise God you see the difference now!

      If you go to my article, a trip in charismania you will see my response to someone else that I wrote just yesterday about this “new thing”. Yes, I too heard this time and again, how God is doing a “new thing”, God is doing “something new”. But we never get down to the business of what the new thing is, exactly, do we?

      I love what you said about the scrip in Isaiah. Look – the new thing was to be the “restoration”. Jesus, being the new covenant IS the restoration! See? The “new thing” still points to Jesus = salvation. No guesswork there. And as far as I see it, we are to continue with what He taught, with His instructions until He comes back for us. And that will be the next new thing. But, until then, here we are. 🙂 There is simplicity in the truth, isn’t there? Not this stupid mystical mumbo jumbo that makes no sense to anyone!

      You were right to question what they meant by that. And in doing so you were “testing the spirits”. Any teaching or experience should be proved valid by the Word. All prophets will lead us back to God, in the need for repentance because we are sinners, of our need for Jesus Christ. It should drive us back to the Word and give us a love for it, because in it are the words of truth, Jesus has the words of eternal life. It should give us a deeper love of God the Father in His gift of His Son Jesus Christ, it should stir within us a love for the brethren, of believers who are like minded in what the pure teaching of the Word tells us, and it should give us a love for the lost! If teaching or experiences do anything other than this, if they stir in us a desire to do that thing, have that experience, if they speak of our own greatness in our gifts, ability, ministry, authority, power, etc. that does not glorify God, then it is proved to be false and we should expose it and turn from it. Narrow is the gate! So often the truth and the false can run so close that it can be hard to determine. Most false teaching and false supernatural experiences, or experiences that are not from God seem like the real thing, but the word will expose them. Consider the prophets in the o.t. didn’t have that many as those we hear of today. And they all had basically the same message of repentance. Today, the message is about the person.

      When they told you that to question these things was to operate in fear or that you were preventing God from doin’ somethin’ – these are classic lines used in manipulation that has become so prevalent. Forget that! We are told to test everything out, like the Bereans. But, the enemy, the demonic operating behind these teachings wants to prevent people from knowing the truth, so he shames them out of finding out. No one likes to be the outcast, right?
      I also have found that most of these experiences and teachings are supported by scriptures in the o.t. Not that there is anything wrong it that, but what happened to the new covenant – the REAL new thing in Jesus? You won’t find Him much in their stories. Just something to consider.

      Where is it anywhere in the bible that someone is actually slain, or falls backward when God is speaking to them? No where. Usually the go to their knees. Those who could not stand went face first and God or the angel would strengthen them to stand back up. What is the true meaning for speaking in tongues? See? There is an excess to the truth which is the same as a lie.

      So see.. my dear? You already know more than what you thought you did. Ask me anything you need to. We can kick it around, hash it out. And I will be praying for you.

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  8. Thank you for your quick, and thorough, reply. I’ve been doing a little research and can’t believe how many books are on my shelf by authors that many say are involved in false movements (Myles Monroe, TD Jakes, Francis Frangipane, Richard Foster to name a few). I don’t want to just believe everything I read on the internet, but what I have seen makes sense. I wonder if there’s any truth in those books, as they seemed so “right” at the time; I wonder if everything I’ve been taught about faith and how to pray is false; I wonder how many people have read them because of a reccommendation from me; I wonder about a lot now.

    The tone of this comment may make it sound like I am depressed or something, but actually, I am quite happy. I know the Lord will be with me on this journey, and I’m glad to be out from under bondages that I didn’t even know I was in.

    Thank you so much for your prayers. Please also pray for my family (husband, mother, sister & her family). We all left our previous church at the same time, but I think I am the only one who has seen the error in the “scene” we left. I talked to my sister a little about it, and she listened, but I’m not sure she sees it quite yet. I’m most concered about my mom. She likes to read the latest books and watches many preachers/prophets on tv. She loves the Lord, and I know she wants to be in His truth, but this realization will be hard on her. We all feel kind of foolish for buying into lies that were told at our former chruch (it had to do with misuse of money) so this is going to be a real doozy. I guess that’s one issue I’m dealing with- feeling stupid for buying this stuff hook, line, and sinker. I am a smart person, and I never saw myself as a mindless sheep moving mindlessly with the flock, but as a person with lots of faith. Turns out I had faith in the wrong thing. I’m praying about when and how to share what I have discovered with with my family. It won’t be easy.

    Thanks again for your encouragement. May God richly bless you!

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    • Diane, sounds like you came out of word of faith/prosperity teaching – Monroe, Jakes, Frangipane. You are in good company. I didn’t realize how far I was in it, until I came out. There is a very nice story that I grabbed up from another blogger, if you need some encouragement – the one written by Edwards the Great. It’s about his family’s struggle with wof and what it took to come out of it. It’s very touching. His brother used to be a wof pastor, and you will find his link -Junker Jorge- on my blog roll. He helped me understand the wof connection from Ken Hagin who plagiarized writings from a new age mystic EW Kenyon. You can see how well it has caught on over time throughout the churches, as most of them have that in their root teachings. The article No Sweat, another I pulled, shows the connection between the occult, The Secret, wof, etc. It’s quite an eye-opener.

      Sorry to say, but all the preachers on tv are bad news. I just had this conversation with my mom too. I’ve been talking to her since I first started to realize the deception and just the other day we got into the Kenyon-Hagin connection which led us to – – Kenneth Copeland, her fav! As far as your family, the Lord will show them the truth too.

      R Foster is contemplative/emergent and not at all a Christian. I have a few writings here under that category, but not so much because I really didn’t get into that. Lighthouse Trails and Apprising, also on my blogroll are both great resources for that and I read them almost daily!

      We are all dumb sheep! That’s why we need a Shepherd. 🙂 Don’t spend too much time feeling stupid. The latter rain movement has infiltrated far more churches and ministries than we can count. Most of us believe we are in the great falling away – 2 Thess 2:3, 11. There’s some info here that should help you and those on my blogroll and throughout the internet. When I first started reading and researching I did all day waaay into the night. It is fine to get help from others, but also important to check out what we say in the Word! The Holy Spirit really IS the best teacher.

      Luke 22:31 – 32 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you , that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.

      That’s what we do for each other! Welcome to my blog!

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  9. It’s ironic that my pastor used to warn against the “properity gospel” and “emergent church” but somehow we were wrapped up in it. We never used the official term “word of faith” but that sounds more accurate. As for the past 2 years, the church moved in the IHOP direction. That was the new “new thing” that God was doing. By the way, I’ve heard from my friends (via email) that there is a “fresh outpouring” going on at the prayer room in KC and that they are streaming it on the internet for free. They are so excited, and I am so heartsick.

    And thanks for the reminder to return to the Word and let the Holy Spirit guide me. I was on the internet for the most part of yesterday (“waaay into the night”) and a good part of today, but I did spend time in the bible too 🙂

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      • Esther, Pray about that. If you are being taught false doctrine, why keep them, read them? But that is something the Lord will show you. 🙂 I believe we need more bible reading and much less book reading.

        Blessings

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  10. I’ve been trying to balance my bible time with research time. Sometimes I get on a roll reading the various blogs and sites about false teachings that are rampant today. It’s mind-blowing! My continual prayer is that God will show me His truth (hence the bible time :-)). I had a thought today, and I think it’s a good one, so I’m going to share it. I felt some comfort/confirmation that my pastor was in the right because he consistently pointed out other fasle teachings in the Church today, and warned us to beware and quoted the scriptures about blindness, and the great falling away, even among the elect etc. That meant he was on the look out, and I was relieved. My former church was mostly into the Kingdom Now/Dominion/Latter Rain theology, so my pastor had a big problem with the Emergent Church movement teachings. (Rick Warren, Rob Bell, et al) I easliy slipped into a “see, they’re wrong, we’re right” mindset. {I’m sure they thought the same of us, lol.} It never dawned on me that we might *both* be scripturally off-base! It sounds so simple now, but with a convenient scapegoat, I was distracted from the truth. I can see this distraction as one of the tools Satan is using to keep the well-intentioned steeped into the particular false doctorines they’re caught up in.

    One line from a classic hymn has been reverberating in my mind over the past week: ‘Twas blind, but now I see!

    Thank you, Lord for your amazing grace!

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    • Diane,
      I know that roll…I can’t seem to get off of it. You are interested in the truth and the Lord will show you. He is faithful and He wants us to know Him and His ways. I remember all of that reading I did in the first week or so, asking, “am I in that?, do I believe that?, is my church in that? and all the hoping that I wasn’t, but…I was. This is why I like to expose teaching and teachers because it was the most helpful to me to understand.

      Funny the comment about the emergent church since they think they have uncovered the “forgotten ways”. On the other hand, charismania is all about gaining the “hidden knowledge”. HA!

      Blessings and freedom to you my friend!

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  11. I was reading in Psalms today, and although this verse is specifically about flatterers, it reminded me that when we think we can “speak things into existence” we put ourselves on the same level as God, the only one who has the ability to create, and then we boast “who is lord over us?”

    Psalm 12:4 Who have said, “With our tongue we will prevail; Our lips are our own; who is lord over us?”

    I’m so thankful for all that God is showing me! Thanks for your blog, M’Kayla. Even though I don’t comment often, I stop by everyday. I enjoy reading your posts and the comments that you and others make. Keep up the great work!

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  12. Hi M’Kayla. I wanted to post something on another thread, but I need to embed a picture/graphic for my comment to make sense. I don’t seem to be able to do that…am I missing something? If this site doesn’t allow for that, do you have an email inbox for this type of submission so you can review it? Just wondering.

    Still visiting everyday. Keep on keeping on 🙂

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    • Go ahead and submit your comment and then send the graphic to me in an e-mail. I’ll see if I can get them to go together. I don’t think wp gives an option for that in the comments like it does in the posting.

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  13. Mkayla
    Just wanted to says thanks and to encourage you for your efforts on this blog.I realise it may seem like a thankless and sometimes mindless task to do what you do ,but i have been encouraged and heartened many times by engaging on this site.In a way, this has become my ” church”, we still gather around His Word and come away with a new understanding and love for our wonderful Saviour.

    God bless you and keep you in His care.

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      • M’kayla:

        Just want to echo Ray’s thanks and encouragement to you for all of the hard work and time you put into this blog. We’re all better informed, encouraged and enlightened as a result.

        Didn’t know where to post the following, so thought here was the best place.

        I’ve found the following blogs to be helpful, perhaps you’ll want to add them to the Blogroll.

        * Beyond Grace
        http://beyondgrace.blogspot.com/

        In addition to great, but infrequent blogposts, the Reading Room resources (on the right-hand side of the page) offer archive documents including book-length manuscripts…many broken links in the Reading Room, but I’ve found the IHOP articles particularly helpful.

        The “Sound Doctrine” links are broken, but they’re the titles to Assembly of God position papers which can be accessed at

        http://www.ag.org/top/Beliefs/position_papers/

        * Speaking of IHOP, Bob DeWaay at Critical Issues Commentary has several articles:

        Mike Bickle and International House of Prayer: Latter Rain Redivivus

        http://www.cicministry.org/commentary/issue107.htm

        Mike Bickle’s Romantic Jesus: IHOP’s Bridal Paradigm

        http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue107b.

        Any topic can be entered into the CIC site to search both articles and radio broadcasts.

        * P.J. Miller’s Sola Dei Gloria blog just posted 3 great excerpts from War on the Saints by Jessie Penn Lewis, titled “Deception” Parts 1,2 & 3

        http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/

        * Slaughter of the Sheep

        http://slaughteringthesheep.wordpress.com/

        * Coffee Talk with Java

        http://javanut61.wordpress.com/

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        • Thank you so much for your thoughtfulness! Hmm..most of these sites I go to often. I think Slaughtering and Coffee Talk are the same blogger person. 🙂 I’ve read a lot of Bob DeWaay’s writings, some just recently too. He’s very good at what he does!

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  14. I just want to add that the radio show archives at Critical Issues Commentary are also an excellent resource. As a person who came out of a church that was getting deep into the IHOP movement, the 3 part series called “Mike Bickle and the International House of Prayer” was extremely helpful. Outside of the rotten roots at IHOP, it’s difficult to nail down the specifics of what’s wrong there. The statement from their webpage sounds ok, which makes it hard to talk to others who believe they are godly and not false. Bob DeWaay’s methodical deconstruction of thier practices brings much clarity to these muddy waters.

    There at lots of other titles of the radio archives that catch my interest, and I can’t wait to hear more. They are about 30 minutes long, so I’ve listened while doing housework and once even downloaded to a CD to play while on a commute.

    Keep up the good work M’Kayla!

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  15. Ditto thank you’s to M’Kayla. Some of your recent posts are just the thing I needed to point some friends to. You have compiled the information into one place and it really helps anyone seeking the truth about current controversial happenings in charismatic circles.

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  16. Norcal, thanks for all the information you have sent. I will take a look at “How to Discern…” as soon as I can. It looks like I have done some writing on this under different headings, especially early on.

    Oh, did you mean a blog entry written by YOU? 🙂

    You be blessed too!

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    • Sorry, only have time to catch up with recent posts and comments, though I’ve been coming to this site for months, probably didn’t get all/most of your early entries.

      If I get caught up getting my notes out on time to our small group (which has been a problem), maybe I’ll surprise you one day!

      Anyway…searching the CIC site this morning, I sorted by topics rather than typing in by “key words” and found the following article by Bob DeWaay that correlates well to the “How to Discern” sermon.

      Title: “Revival, The Cross and The Narrow Gate”

      http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue42.htm

      Key thesis: Christ promised that false prophets and false signs and wonders would characterized the end times. Paul predicted a great apostasy. However, God has done signs and wonders to confirm His word in the past and He can do so today if He so wills. So, how are we to distinguish the true from the false?

      The acid test is the content of the message preached.

      At least the following must be true: all teaching must be Biblical and must clearly define the uniqueness of the person of Christ. This must include the cross both the historical facts of the death burial and resurrection of Christ as a substitutionary atonement and that saving faith in Christ includes embracing the implications of the cross in one’s own life. If this type of preaching and teaching is consistently practiced, we can be sure that God will use it to call forth His people out of the fallen world and into true relationship with Himself. This is the nature of the narrow gate and narrow path.

      If, however, a claimed revival has anything and everything else: hype, excitement, signs and wonders, masses of followers, testimony of people changing their behavior, or whatever else might attend such a revival, even if otherwise praiseworthy, such a revival has no validity if the message of the cross is absent.

      Jesus saw as a temptation from Satan the popularity that came from the multitudes who were willing to follow Him as long as he said nothing about the cross. Thus He rebuked Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.” (Mark 8:33b). Why? Peter had rebuked Jesus for saying that He “must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.” (Mark 8:31b).

      The cross is what narrows the group down to the remnant of faith. That is why it is a Satanic temptation to neglect its preaching or relegate it to something people may find out about later if they bother to enquire.

      Jesus not only asserted the He must suffer on the cross for the sins of the world, but He pressed the implications home to all who claimed to want to follow him: “And He summoned the multitude with His disciples, and said to them, If anyone wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.'” (Mark 8:34).

      Is it any surprise that in our day where “revival” means revelry and laughter, self love, prosperity, popularity, and many grandiose claims, that the masses are attracted. Absent the cross it is merely end times deception.

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      • This is one of the best articles I have read!
        thanks again. (still reading)

        My comment about previous writings was made because the similarities in the scrips you put up regarding the Holy Spirit and the manifestations – gold dust, etc., in light of unbiblical teaching, current revivals, etc. Those deceived have no clue who the Holy Spirit truly is, or how He operates in the life of a believer. They also do not understand biblical signs and wonders which have nothing to do with gems, gold dust or oil, etc. Just some research I did in leaving the healing rooms and the Vineyard Church and I am still amazed when I hear these same things repeated back to me. It does give me a sense of peace.

        You’ve given me lots to look at. 🙂

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  17. Norcal, Reading your post i was reminded how our LORD Jesus had His own ‘revival’ of sorts : multitudes flocked to Him. And then He ‘spoiled the party’ by saying, Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you. Then the ‘revival’ was over, the multitudes walked away, and only His close disciples stayed with Him from then on. And Jesus didn’t run after them saying, Come back!

    And His was a REAL ‘revival’, as far as the signs and wonders were of God. Still, only a few were willing to become His disciples. It’s the same now.

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    • Ian:

      EXACTLY! You nailed it…John 6:62: “From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.”

      Guess Jesus hadn’t performed enough SLSW (Strategic Level Spiritual Warfare)…sorry, couldn’t resist.

      But when I read in the Scriptures that neither Jesus nor Paul ever “took a city for Christ”, I marvel at the audacity of the Dominionist/ 7 Mountain / Latter Rain proponents that preach and think that not only cities but whole nations will be “taken for Christ”.

      You’re a wealth of Holy Spirit-inspired wisdom. I love your ability to get to the point, state a pithy truth, and always so succinctly.

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  18. Mkayla
    Just read your post re death in your family, please be assured that i will be praying for you and your husband for this situation.May Gods comfort be with you both.

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  19. mkayla, I have been researching latter rain theology and drunk in the spirit after witnessing strange behavior in our youth at a retreat meeting. It disturbed me to hear my nephew brag about being stoned in the spirit. I have voiced my concerns with my pastor and shared that I did not want our church to be involved with the church in Redding. I have been unable to bring light to this great deception that 2 of our local churches seem to be falling for. Are any complete churches coming out of this? I love my brothers and sisters and want this nonsense to leave my region. any strategies would be appreciated. P.S. please pray for us!

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    • Brian, I am sorry to know that about your church. Most of the stories here are of others approaching the pastor with the truth, but end up leaving. I don’t know of any entire church coming out as of yet. We can only pray and speak the truth!

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  20. hey, just wanna say thanks for the good work you’re doing here. as of like, two weeks ago i was getting ready to apply to IHOP’s forunner music school but for some reason started doing more research on the place over the internet. i’ve been heavily involved on a daily basis in their teachings, worship, and lifestyle. i also started listening to Bethel’s teachings and worship about a year ago. but God is so good and about two days ago has completely taken the veil off my eyes. now, quite honestly, i’m a little confused and saddened since i’ve put my heart and soul in these movements for years now. i don’t know how i was so blind.
    God bless you. He is good. 🙂

    oh, and i wrote a blog post based on what my own research has come up with in the last two days. you can find it at http://www.myrandomthoughts09.blogspot.com

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    • Wonderful testimony to hear from you Steph! As I was reading your blog I was struck again by the realization that these movements which seem separate are coming together as one big religion.

      Oh, I am glad you are out of it now. Our Lord is forgiving and will restore you to His truth.

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  21. @ M’kayla: I apologize for the length of this post. I don’t mean to hijack the thread.

    @ Steph:

    Wasn’t sure whether to post this only on your blog or here also, but figured that M’kayla would appreciate the extra material to read in her spare (ha!) time.

    ** Re: M’kayla’s statement above “movements which seem separate are coming together as one big religion”…

    The article “Neutralization in the Church” by Dr. Gregory Reid (linked below) has articulated the conclusion I’ve been coming to for several months: that while at first glance Rick Warren, Rob Bell, Brian McLaren, the Emergent crowd, C. Peter Wagner, Chuch Pierce, Rick Joyner and the NAR (New Apostolic Reformation)/Dominionist apostolic/prophetic crew all seem to be strange bedfellows, the logical outcomes of their belief systems leads them to be unified at the end, and not in a good way.

    * Rick Warren’s global P.E.A.C.E. plan makes the gospel subordinate to mobilizing billions (with a “b”) on the planet (Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, others) to achieve “social-gospel” type goals: clean water, schools, eradicating poverty, etc.

    * Rob Bell, Brian McLaren and the Emergent crowd do away with the concepts of “heavenly hope” and a “literal hell”, and instead seek to create “the Kingdom of God on earth”/”heaven on earth”, primarily through acts of justice, green, etc. Furthermore, it’s well documented that one of the consistent results of contemplative prayer (popularized by the Emergent Crowd) is that it moves the practitioner away from the orthodoxy of the gospel and toward more of a “unity”/all paths to God mindset, even toward pantheism and panentheism. Apprising Ministries, Christian Research Service, Lighthouse Trails Research, and Slice of Laodicea, ReformedNazarene blogs have plenty of documentation on that.

    * Next, there’s the influx of contemplative/new spirituality within the apostolic/prophetic/charismatic movements: IHOP/Mike Bickle promotes it, the wackiness of John Crowder/Benjamin Dunn/Red Letter Ministries is a result of heavy immersion into contemplative spirituality and the “desert fathers”. One example is that Red Letter Ministries even uses The Book of Enoch by Enoch as part of their school of the supernatural curriculum. Jim Goll (NAR) wrote the book that’s been the handbook for the introduction of contemplative into the apostolic/prophetic movement, “The Lost Art of Practicing His Presence”. The book has heavily influenced Crowder and even the Bethel Church, Redding, CA followers.

    * Furthermore, the wikipedia entry for Latter Rain Movement states, “a major theme of the Latter Rain was(is) ‘unity’ among the believers in the church service, the geographic region and at large. They taught (and still do) that God saw the Church organized not into denominations but along geographical lines as in the book of Acts — one Church but in different locations. They expected (and still expect) that in the coming last days, the various Christian denominations would dissolve, and the true church would coalesce into city wide churches under the leadership of the newly-restored apostles and prophets.”

    Paul Cain’s and Francis Frangipane’s similar comments about “unity” can be found here: http://www.intotruth.org/pk/pkmm3.html

    In short, in much of the apostolic/prophetic movement, doctrinal differences are being set aside in order to tear down denominational walls for the sake of demonstrating what is being called Biblical unity. My own pastor (part of a Latter Rain believing organization) — between his two altar calls last week — laid the groundwork for the above and said that God had spoken to him about “a unity that’s coming to the Body of Christ in the city, county, state, and more where ‘minor’ differences such as women in the pulpit, etc, would be set aside for the sake of unity”. And the crowed clapped and cheered.

    * When C. Peter Wagner first proposed the “New Apostolic Reformation”, his initial term for the movement wasn’t “NAR”, rather, it was “post-denominational”.

    * C. Peter Wagner and Rick Warren were part of the same church growth seminary program at the same time at Fuller Seminar.

    * Last but not least, the “Kingdom Now/Dominionist/Latter Rain” beliefs in much of the charismatic church that emphasize the Church (or Bride of Christ) as overcoming and victorious on earth coming into “perfection” and “full stature” and culminating in the Second Coming of Jesus Christ AFTER the earth has been subdued (people groups, nations, governments, etc) and the millennium is over (having been brought to pass by their efforts) require significant “unity” to accomplish.

    * We can’t fail to mention Rick Joyner being a member of the Knights of Malta, St. John’s Order, sworn to protect the pope even unto death. (Roman Catholic connection)

    Two articles from Gregory Reid, written out of passion and concern:

    * Neutralization of the Church…points 1 – 3 speak to how the Emerging and New Spirituality (Occult and New Age influences) are infiltrating the church; point 4 addresses how the emphasis on prophetic and signs/wonders from the Pentecostal/Charismatic will be, in Reid’s opinion, a source of deception and damage to the church.

    “The Neutralization of the Church in Preparation for the Coming of the Antichrist”

    http://www.gregoryreid.com/id197.htm

    * Article, “Trojan Horse”…refers to the social gospel, and you’ll find the material under the heading “Last Days” to include tenets of Latter Rain theology, the use of replacement theology, etc.

    http://www.gregoryreid.com/id180.htm

    * Finally, my research over the past months has taken me – often inadvertently – to conspiracy theory websites of all stripes. By nature, I’m a glass half full type of person and not a fan of conspiracy theories, and I generally don’t stay, go back to, or hang around those type of sites. Below I’m going to link to an article merely because a few paragraphs in it relate to the above. I hesitate to link because I don’t want to get flamed by commenters. I, in no way, shape, or form endorse all of the content on this site.

    That said, in the linked article titled, “The Mother of All Conspiracies”, read the pages below the subheading titled, “The Real Reason Why the Antichrist Will Kill Christians” down to the subheading “A Massive World-Wide Depression is Coming”…posits a scenario where Muslims, followers of new spirituality, and Dominionists will converge and unite to purge nonconformists, including/especially Christians.

    http://www.arkhaven.org/conspiracy.htm

    Other resources

    * At http://www.concernednazarenes.org you can request a free Emerging Church DVD.

    Ray Yungen, Joanna Michaelsen, Mike Oppenheimer of Let Us Reason ministries, and Sandy Simpson of Deception in the Church all speak on it. It addresses the inroads of new spirituality into the Evangelical church and Western society as a whole. Very eye-opening. I’ve played it for our small group and have passed out many copies.

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  22. Norcal, “I’ve played it for our small group and have passed out many copies.”

    Are you referring to the DVD by Concerned Nazarenes?

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  23. i agree with most of what’s in the article. i really question whether most of those involved in the emerging church would ever betray nonconforming Christians, though.. cause there’s a lot of people in those movements who definitely are Christians, they’re just being a little deceived at the moment.

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  24. Norcal, this is another amazing confirmation to me– I just said this on the Sadparent thread! God wants this heard, what you are saying! It really is the Spirit seeking to warn the church, what Satan is engineering through the guise of all these various movements, not just Charismania.

    I just posted,on February 3 a new Shrewshape E-mail, “TOP SECRET”, that has been the most difficult and most hindered of all of them to write–one draft, ready to publish, literally was lost in cyberspace when I hit “save draft” at the exact moment WordPress was doing autosave and it was lost forever. I had to rewrite it from a very old draft, and from memory.

    This theme of all the various movements of the church being merged into one the new Shrewshape subject. I mention Fuller, dominionism, Contemplative Prayer, IHOP, even Rick Joyner and the Knights of Malta! I did forget Rick Warren, but am going to put America’s Pastor and his peace plan in there right now, so thanks for the reminder! This has been so encouraging to my faith. Thank you, Lord!

    Oh God, that you would open up more blind eyes, like those of Steph! Thank you for encouraging us, that you do open them up, even those like Steph, who seem so committed these ministries, such as IHOP. How faith-building you are, Lord, at just the right time you come in with these good testimonies! Open up more eyes, Lord, through all this blog chatter, and all the prayers, all the crying out that goes on, for our dear loved ones still stuck in these destructive movements! For your Name’s sake, Lord! Save them, O God!

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    • @ Karen:

      Absolutely an amazing confirmation,so many of the same details that God was revealing to you!

      I’ve only been to your site once, will have to visit again to check out “TOP SECRET”. I’ve had to limit the number of blogs I read and participate in. You’re a tremendously gifted and talented writer! I absolutely loved “Letter to Bill Johnson from a Child”…saw it on Redeemed Hippies blog, but didn’t know who had authored it.

      Another similarity…I nearly lost the above post in cyberspace…almost had to reconstruct it until it showed up in M’kayla’s spam folder!

      I wrote it stream of consciousness, first draft. So, just to mess up your edits, here’s a bit more material:

      * Brandon Barthrop is the principal at Red Letter Ministries, using the Book of Enoch as a teaching tool

      * Don’t forget Lou Engle/Bob Jones/Mike Bickle/Todd Bentley all talking about the “New Breed” and Joel’s Army. Lou Engle has described visions of youth in “military fatigues” and of course, martyrdom, as part of the anti-abortion, anti-gay challenges

      * Chuck Colson…”Catholics and Evangelicals Together”

      * Christianity Today writes of evangelicals “Returning to Rome”

      * “Catholics Come Home” is a new “seeker sensitive” push for Catholics

      * Obviously, the Manhattan Declaration is highly ecumenical

      * John Crowder (contemplative prayer/desert father devotee) almost always makes the “sign of the cross” at the end of his prayers…talks about those “drunken friars of old”

      * Bentley’s claims that “soaking prayer” (a charismatic spin on contemplative prayer) have given him more revelation knowledge than reading 50 chapters of Scripture

      * Emergent ideas/new spirituality practices making huge inroads into the Nazarenes and Southern Baptists.

      Particularly scary when Leonard Sweet (Emergent) writes things in his book Quantum Spirituality like, “In his book Quantum spirituality “ One can be a faithful disciple of Jesus Christ without denying the flickers of the sacred in followers of Yahweh, or Kali, or Krishna. A globalization of evangelism “in connection” with others, and a globally “in-formed” gospel, is capable of talking across the fence with Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh, Muslim–people from other so called “new” religious traditions (“new” only to us)–without assumption of superiority and power. (p.130 underline mine)

      * Even more ominous are some of Brian McLaren’s quotes, “…many Hindus are willing to consider Jesus as a legitimate manifestation of the divine… many Buddhists see Jesus as one of humanity’s most enlightened people…. A shared reappraisal of Jesus’ message could provide a unique space or common ground for urgently needed religious dialogue—and it doesn’t seem an exaggeration to say that the future of our planet may depend on such dialogue. This reappraisal of Jesus’ message may be the only project capable of saving a number of religions.” (Brian McLaren, The Secret Message of Jesus: Uncovering the Truth that could change everything, page 7.)

      “God is calling everyone to be part of His “dream for our world coming true,” a dream that will be fulfilled when everyone and everything in the entire universe will become the kingdom of God (pp. 91, 104, 191, 193, 194, 210, 234).

      McLaren wants us all to be open to change. That belief in God is enough, absurdo reducto – the goal is to have a generic belief that all can accept and unite with. Universalism.

      * There’s enough evidence from current and former practitioners of contemplative prayer that it leads to pantheism and/or panentheism with an attitude of universalism as a result.

      The message of the cross and the exclusivity of Jesus being “the Way, the Truth, and the Life” will undoubtedly be an offense to the growing community of universalists…the “superiority” that Sweet refers to above.

      * Universalism was a major theme in the book, The Shack. Unbelievable how that book is/was embraced by evangelical Christians.

      * The Rethink Conference was co-hosted by Erwin Mc Manus and Robert Schuller where emergent church leaders and others congregated together. Yes, Bible liberals do have unity. The Rethink Conference had speakers: Gary Smalley, Chuck Colson, Henry Cloud, and Kay Warren, along with Larry King, Former President George Bush Sr., Rupert Murdoch of Fox.

      Their message is the paradigm shift is now underway. Robert Schuller who promotes religious syncretism wrote:

      “Move into mighty moods of meditation. Draw energy from centers of sacred solitude, serenity, and silence…. Find yourself coming alive in the garden of prayer called meditation…. Yes, the “New Agers” have grabbed hold of meditation…. Hey, Christian! Hear me! Let’s not give up the glorious, God-given gift of meditation by turning it over to those outside our faith” (Prayer: My Soul’s Adventure with God, pp. 141, 151)

      If others can practice this meditation then this type of meditation is cannot be Christian in fact it will change you, it will synthesize you into the New Age movement!

      As usual, I’ve written far too much for one comment. M’kayla, pls forgive me.

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      • Two comments on your comment: 🙂

        1) I’ve heard a missionary to India say that Hindus there already believe in so many gods, some want to add Jesus to their pantheon when they hear the Gospel. When he has ministered to them, he has emphasized that they must renounce all other gods to become followers of Jesus the Christ, to be born again into His Kingdom and thus become His children.

        2) I don’t know any details, but I do know that Robert Schuller’s own son, Robert (different middle initial) Schuller, left that church soon after the elder retired to become pastor ’emeritus’ (or something similar) and he became the new pastor. What I read about that was that the younger one wanted to emphasize the Scriptures, and the elder was opposed to that idea. I don’t know if that’s true, or not, and I am sure it’s not the whole story, though it may have been the crux of the issue. I just know that I heard the elder Schuller make extremely fleshly, man-centered pronouncements for years. He twisted the Scriptures to serve man, instead of urging man to serve God.

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    • @ Karen:

      Several more for Shrewshape:

      * “Biggie”: Bill Hybel’s 2009 Leadership Conference at Willow Creek featured both Bono and Tony Blair among the speakers. Tony Blair recently converted to Catholicism. Rick Warren is on the board of the Tony Blair Faith Foundation, along with a Zen Buddhist, a Hindu, an Anglican, a rabbi and others. One of the goals of the Foundation is to “heal the divisiveness in the world”. Blair states, “God’s Spirit moves through us and the world at a pace that can never be constricted by any one religious paradigm. Be very wary of people who think theirs is the only way.”

      http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs019/1101818841456/archive/1102660194714.html

      * A few years ago, the results of a survey that Hybels commissioned showed the “seeker sensitive” premises to have failed. They replaced that with a lot of Emergent speakers, books and materials. A theme of one of their recent conferences was “The Culture is Changing, Are You?”

      * Dr. James Dobson and Tony Parker, Family Research Council stood and prayed with Lou Engle and Mike Bickle at The Call, San Diego before the 2008 election.

      * Rick Warren did his D.MIN. doctoral dissertation on his church growth ideas in 1993 under C. Peter Wagner at Fuller Seminary. “[Robert Schuller] had a profound influence on Rick,” Kay [Warren] says. “We were captivated by his positive appeal to nonbelievers. I never looked back.” Warren frequently associates with new age sympathizers like Ken Blanchard and new ager/emergent author Leonard Sweet.

      * Speakers at the Azusa Street Centennial in 2006: Rick Warren, Kenneth and Gloria Copeland, Jerry Savelle, Creflo Dollar, Bill Hamon, Fred Price, Jack Hayford, Benny Hinn, T.D.Jakes, David Yonggi Cho, Paula White, Brian Houston (Hillsongs), Judy Jacobs, Rod Parsley, Marvin Winans, and Reinhard Bonnke.

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  25. Norcal,

    Thanks for the topics to pursue. It is exhausting, all this heresy! I had to take a break. I could not even watch the Todd Bentley rebuke until today, couldn’t stomach it. Now, it has heartened me that God is raising up leaders to speak out boldly; something I have been praying for since the beginning.

    You have definitely given me food for thought. I have been aware of all those guys for some time, and we’ll see how they fit into all the nefarious plotting. John Crowder has been in my sights for some time–and he is probably next. But quite frankly, I am just in a period of great mourning and grief, this stuff is breaking my heart. That’s poem writing time for me–very cathartic.

    So thanks for the heads up! It’s beautiful here, time for a walk on the beach with the dog.

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  26. Stevens kid :this blog really bumms me out and the comments as well, being critical is not discernment, discernment is a gift to obtain from God, i fully know that most people visiting this site and others like it have been burned by a body of christ somewhere or are just watching out for wolves in the body(or church). I am sorry and do ask for your forgiveness as well, you don’t know me and for sure know that none of you know personally most of these ministers eiter, what seperates us from other religions, and the tabloids, our negativity, our critical venting or false intercession(not praying for them or for our hearts on issues), or our love. In matthew 18 there is a parable that talks very bluntly about how we become prisoners. In anger, his master turned him over to the jailers or tormentors to be tortured until he should pay back until all that is owed, this is how Our Father in heaven will treat anyone unless you forgive your brother from your heart. I consitantly have been hurt but the i constantly have to forgive daily others and myself but it gets easier and i dont have the hate or anger that i had previous over those i dissagreed with or were rude to me. With all i know this is not a encouraging word but some concern with a solution for one issue, out of these other issues.

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    • Stevens kid – Discernment is NOT a gift from God. Discernment is the ability to judge right doctrine from wrong according to the bible. Matthew 18 has absolutely nothing to do with what you claim it does and has no bearing on this conversation. I don’t have to know a person to be able to determine if the teaching is biblical or not. I only need to COMPARE it to the word of God. Besides, if you had read anything about me you would know that I have first had experience and knowlege of the teachings in word of faith – health – wealth – prosperity doctrines and the false prophetic – supernatural movements!!!

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      • Mkayla, ITA with you that we need to compare all teachings to the Word of God. The Lord specifically commended the believers at Berea for doing that; He said they were “more noble” than other believers who did not. (ref: Acts)

        It is also true that “discerning of spirits” is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, as listed in I Corinthians 12. I don’t know for sure if that’s what “Stevens kid” was referring to, or not. It may have been.

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        • No, he was disagreeing with me based on his presumed supernatural ability to discern that I was simply being critical. As was the reason for my response and I still agree with it. It is not the same as a discerning or distinguishing of spirits listed in 1 Corinthians 12:10, but is a typical response from those who defend false teachers and prophets.

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  27. Hi M’Kayla, I posted over at You Are All Brothers about things I was taught in charismania regarding the prophetic. I’m curious to know if you were also taught that 1. God is always talking (which lead to the idea that we can then ‘get a word’ whenever we want) and 2. that He talks to us in a voice that sounds like us……?

    Also, somewhat related, that there is a ‘blueprint’ for our lives – which we must discover. Do you know what scripture is used for that idea?

    Hope you are doing well.

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    • Hi Ruth. I am well. 🙂 Thanks!!

      Yes, I was taught quite a bit on hearing the voice of God, from John Paul Jackson and also the Vineyard I attended had their own training. Of course those I listened to – Cindy Jacobs, Bob Jones, – that gang- AND the healing rooms – all taught pretty much the same thing. I never heard of the blueprint for life, but I have heard that dreams can be interpreted for a similar outcome. Who teaches the blueprint? Scripture, how about Jeremiah 29:11 I know the plans I have for you…

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    • And God uses things that are familiar to us – a song on a radio, a phrase, color, etc. Everything has a purpose in the prophetic. So, pretty soon, we get signs and words all over the place as “god” is confirming. None of this is true of course! The need for the next word becomes an addiction. People caught up in this false prophetic come to the place they can’t even wiggle without that next word!

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  28. Gonna chime in here. We were taught (KCF-early IHOP days) that the Lord would speak to us in an easily recognizable voice, like a parent’s or spouse’s voice. I can’t remember if it was when John Paul Jackson lived here at the time – but he did teach a group of hand selected individuals how to do dream interpretation – and there was a book floating around that told what colors and numbers meant. We began scratching our heads and wondering where the bible described this color/number thingy and decided it might be bogus. If we’d only known . . .

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    • Hi Julie.
      IF only we had known! I know that afterthefact thing sooo well too!
      Ugh.
      And to think the answers were right there under our noses in the bible! 🙂

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    • Hi. I was over there. It seems to be at a point of contention. Once the truth is told, there isn’t a point to argue. People are either going to believe it or they aren’t. I see this person is pretty supportive of C Blake.

      I can’t speak for Curry Blake, only for what I learned under Cal Pierce. Anyone supporting or teaching healing is for everyone, that it is God’s will, NAR, dominionism, word of faith should be avoided. If you are asking about specifics from my experience I will be happy to help. I will also say that Pierce and Lake had some kind of connection and Pierce often spoke of the same healing angel making an appearance. I will have to dig out the teaching notes for anything specific, but Pierce is how I learned of Lake. Mantles, anointings….none of it has a part in Christianity, its all about the person, elitism and twisted doctrine.

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  29. I have been reading your website and blogs and have found them MORE than interesting…I agree with you on so many many things and have..”been there, done that” and would love to receive your email news letters and blog.
    May God continue to use you mightily as you “expose” the enemy and his deceptions. Blessings, Joy

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  30. Hi M’Kayla, I’ve been a Christian for 25 years and am only now finding all this stuff; i.e. your blog and others. I recently took part in a conference in Israel that was hosted by a house of prayer there. Some things did not “sit well” with me, such as teachings on the “Joshua Generation” and declaring that “this is the last generation!” When I came home, I prayed that I would know Him and His Word and I think that God really led me to pray that prayer because since that time I’ve found so many things that don’t seem to line up with the Word. I’ve been to Toronto, Brownsville, spent hours on the Elijah List, and it only gets worse and worse as I dig. I’ve been immersed in it for years. Like I said, I’m only recently starting to read and I’m afraid for my friends. Most of them are caught up with IHOP, (I did an internship with a local house of prayer), B. Johnson, and the whole lot of them. I would love to talk to you more as time goes on. I haven’t talked to my friends about any of this so they don’t know what I’m thinking and reading, but it scares me that I could lose most of them OR I guess the better way to think about this is that they could see the error, too, and turn from it. I’m not completely out, so to speak, cuz I’m still going to my same church. Could use your prayers!

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    • Hi Nancy.

      Is that house of prayer in Israel Succot Hallel? (may not be the correct spelling)

      I am thankful the Lord is showing you the truth – and that He brought you to the place of questioning to begin with. Praise His name! He is so faithful. You keep reading and praying and I will be here praying for you too. Please feel free to ask anything that you need to. It took me a couple of years to get through and there are areas I still struggle with. Be patient, there is a lot to undo. It was explained to me as a type of deprogramming that takes time, similar to those who come out of cuts. Many believe IHOP IS a cult.

      Yes, you will find that these false teachers and prophets do great damage to the faith, denying the deity of Christ, exalting man above His place – the steering of the false prophetic. While they use the name of God they do not honor Him and instead teach false things under the guise of His holy name. But we are seeing more and more these teachings replacing Jesus Christ and the need for salvation. This is what many of these teachings are about, evidence in the way they pray, their methods of spiritual warfare, worship, marketplace ministry, etc.

      Our God is more powerful and more faithful than any of those false teachings and teachers. I will pray for you freedom in Christ. I look forward to hearing from you again.

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      • Hi M’Kayla,thanks for your response. The house of prayer was Jerusalem HOP For All Nations. I was at a conference in which 2,000 people came from 150 nations. At the time I was pumped, but since I’ve been home I’ve been kind of deflated. Honestly it’s hard to know what’s going on. Is the enemy just fooling with me? It all seems like a bad dream. Today I was reading through an article on speaking in tongues, something that I have been immersed in for years; have been taught that it “changes the atmosphere” and breaks stuff, you know…the article was on bible.org. Maybe you could help me with knowing what websites are “reliable”; there’s so much out there…I’m still reeling and what’s to stop me from going extremely to the complete opposite direction? I don’t want to go from one extreme to another. Thanks for your prayers!

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        • Nancy, at this time it is more important and very necessary for you to read your bible and not so much things on the web that you are unsure of. I know there is a great emphasis put on tongues and I also was very much involved. I watched other people convince those they were praying with that they had the gift. One thing is for certain, it does not change the atmosphere. This is a misconception used in charismania. Where in the word are we told such a thing? We are not.

          I also struggled with this topic for a time. So please, go to your bible and dig there for the truth, asking the Lord to show you in His word. He will do it and you will feel much better having done this on your own. Be prepared that you may go from one extreme to the other. I did this, but it is how I found the middle ground. I questioned every thing I had learned for decades and I still have questions. But the more I learned the more “grounded” I became. This may take some time so just be patient. And forget the devil, what he could be doing or speaking to you. Focus on Jesus.

          I would think this “deflated” feeling may be from being so built up and then having received nothing real, nothing concrete. Once you begin to really dig in the word the Lord will teach you and this feeling will leave. Set your mind on the things of God and not so much on how you feel – emotions can be dangerous and misleading – set your mind to the word because the truth is found there. Remember that song –“Jesus loves me this I know, for the bible tells me so”? It doesn’t say “Jesus loves me this I know because I feel loved”, it says “because the bible says so”. And that is the case in all things as you come out of this. We don’t know things are true because we feel them, we know they are true because the word of God tells us. (I have to remind myself of this all the time.:)

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          • Thanks M’Kayla! I am starting to dig…one topic at at time. There are so many! It seems that one thread leads to another. I’ve prayed that I could find someone to talk to about these things; most of my friends are immersed. So I thank you for taking your time to respond to me and to others. Maybe you addressed this in another place on your blog…but what happened to your friendships when you started to leave things? Have your friends listened to you?

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            • Nancy, when I left charismania I lost the friendships. But in my heart I knew they weren’t true friends because they did not act toward me like other friendships I had in the past. But I have more friends now than I did then, real true Christian friends who spend time with me, talk, pray and have fun just being together.

              I can’t say for sure if those I warned listened. They are still involved altho I put it all in writing to them and could show them scripturally where they were off. Every once in a while one of them will contact me with a question and I give them the truth. But as far as I know they still continue to practice they way they did. Now, there is one woman who did come out of it, but we were not involved in the same ministry. It was someone I gave a “prophetic” word to, and she contacted me thru e-mail and I was able to begin to speak the truth to her. But, God had prepared her before hand and she is no longer involved in charismania. We still “chat” from time to time thru e-mail. That was a great encouragement to me. https://mkayla.wordpress.com/2010/06/09/out-of-the-false-prophetic-a-short-testimony/
              And there are others who come here and are helped. So, I take it in stride that the Lord is taking care of his own. I may not know which one or when but I do know he is faithful. And he will be to you too! Just pray for them and ask for guidance. It willl come.

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              • Hi M’Kayla, how are you? I’m still processing, processing…reading here and my Bible. I still haven’t talked to anyone “in my circle” about all of this; hope that will happen soon. Kinda still don’t know what to make of all of it. We have a leadership conference coming up soon at my church-Marc Dupont, Alan Vincent are the main speakers. Don’t know if that will be the time that “breaks the camel’s back” or not; I plan on going just to hear what they have to say and how they say it.
                Couple of verses I want to run by you; I’m sure you’re very familiar with them cuz they are ones that WOFers use and charismatics rely on respectively: Psalm 103:3 and Jude 20. He heals “all” our diseases and “praying in the Holy Spirit”. Any commentary on those two? I’m not asking so that I can refute anything; I’m interested in your take on them.
                thanks! I’ll be here now and again.

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                • Alan Vincent is still making the rounds? He resides here in my adopted home town of San Antonio. I’ve met the guy before as I wanted him to explain “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” to me using Scripture. He sent me about 3-5 pages in an MS Word doc justifying it.

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                    • Yes, he quoted lots of Scripture and stated the evidence would be by tongues and prophecying. Here’s a piece:

                      It has three parts to it :-
                      a) Being born again.
                      b) Being baptized in Water.
                      c) being baptized in the Holy Spirit.

                      I would say he does a thorough job of it. I totally disagree with it, of course. The MS doc is over 4 pages in length.

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                • Nancy, it is a matter of taking those scriptures out of context and conformity with the whole word of God. Jesus DID heal all during His earthly ministry, but all are not healed now. One day we will all be healed in His presence but not in this lifetime. Praying in the Holy Spirit is to pray with His guidance. I don’t believe in the use of tongues as many do as I cannot find proof of such thing in the word. But again, I have not been trained in the word. I’m just a little grammie warning others of apostacy in the church from my own experience. It would be interesting to hear what is said in those meetings!

                  Nice to see you again. 🙂

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                  • Want to run something by you; I don’t want to be looking for a “demon behind every bush” but everything I receive these days I’m picking apart! This was in a ministry update from some friends who are in YWAM, a ministry I was a part of for 7 years.
                    They were hanging with some homeless guys and “God led” them to do this with the guys: (their conversation)

                    “Are you guys up for an experiment, where we ask God what he thinks about you?

                    Blank stares. I wondered if the idea was really from God after all. Finally, one of the DTS students, spoke up.
                    “Thanks for being the guinea pig, Dustin,” I said.
                    We asked God his thoughts about Dustin and waited silently for a couple minutes.
                    We shared those thoughts with him, which affirmed and encouraged everyone. To my surprise, even Damien and Troy, who don’t have a relationship with God yet, had something to share. Everyone was excited because we all heard from God! We prayed for each person in our group and were elated because God was no longer an idea but real, personal and knowable.

                    It was amazing to experience God together with these three guys. I know they came a few steps closer to God. As our relationships continue throughout the rest of the year, we pray they will encounter the living God and their lives will never be the same!”

                    OK, this is me again…if a person doesn’t “know God”, will they “hear God” in an “experiment” like this? My intention isn’t to come against my friends, but isn’t this some of the same stuff that you’re talking about in this blog? Is everybody out there hearing God even if they don’t know Him??? I don’t want to sound nit-picky; just wanted your thoughts…and anybody else’s for that matter who read these comments.

                    Just to say, too, that I think it’s great that my friends are ministering; that’s not my point. My question is are we misleading people?

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                    • This is the false prophetic, aka treasure hunting, life reading, destiny words, etc. and not different from that of a psychic! These experiences can be very powerful and seem to have deep meaning, affecting all who are involved. But they are false! If this person would have given us the specific message that was “heard”, the lie would be easily seen in it. How do unbelievers hear from God in the true sense? Through the word of God, through hearing the word. Romans 10:17 and how do the hear it? Through preachers v 14. God does not perform for people through these experiements to prove His existence to them.

                      In charismania it is no longer enough that Jesus died because of the love of the Father as we are told in John 3:16. Now we have to give specific words of love or divine destiny to assure people God loves them. There has to be an experience, an enounter. There is no gospel, only a hope that they will one day be saved. we pray they will encounter the living God. If they were the messengers of God, what happened to the true message that would have brought them the opportunity to be saved? They would have had a much better chance if they had heard about Jesus and not about themselves!

                      This is not the way the disciples preached the gospel at all. It is the seeker sensitive, feel good about yourself message that gives glory to man and not to God. Notice how it gives a false sense of hope and security – “Wow, look at what God has to say about ME!” or “Wow! Look at how God is using little old ME!” It is not ministering in a true Christian sense and I am sure it grieves God to see this taking place, to see the name of His son who died being used in such a false and meaningless way.

                      I am sure if God was to answer back the message would be in the form of their need of repentance. We can only have a relationship with God through Jesus Christ. He is the only way to God, and certainly not through some feel good words! Speaking truth to others can be no different than what we read of Jesus and the disciples doing when they were face to face with people. They called out their sin or gave them a piece of truth, but they never gave a “reading” in the way the false prophetic teaches them to do.

                      Yes, this is the same as what I came out of and it is very deceptive. The next step is to teach people to place great importance on these words, to pray over them, post them, read them daily and remind God of them. They begin to take on meaning greater than that of the bible itself. That is where we begin to see people chase after the next word the same as an addict will chase after the next fix. A situation in their lives will arise and they need a “word” to know what to do. So in this scenario we again see an example of what happens when we step away from the teaching of scripture and follow man’s cleverly devised plans and methods. When someone comes with a “word” a great question to ask is “Where’s Jesus?” Revelation 19:10 For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

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  31. Hi Mkayla,

    I am not all that familiar with IHOP/Mike Bickle. When you have time, do you think you could summarize what they are about, hitting on the main bullet points of what people should be aware of/concerned for. From time to time, his end-times class is taught in our church, and it is not uncommon to hear people’s stories of their trips to IHOP etc. And just recently they started doing the prayer room thing, borrowing the “24/7” label for it, so people can sign up for time slots to come pray during that time. Would really appreciate it, thanks so much. Scott

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    • The major concern with Bickle is the false teaching, the emphasis on long worship times, the need to involve and transform the youth, and these man-made methods of prayer. 24/7 prayer models or Houses of David as they are also known are not supported in the new testament, nor are they taught by Jesus. Well, nothing that goes on in there is supported either. While I had very little involvement I do have some information on my blog – https://mkayla.wordpress.com/category/mike-bickle-ihop/

      I have read many behind the scenes stories by people who were intimately involved in the internship training programs (long-term, not short) and their experiences are not happy ones. These stories speak of some pretty bad treatment – crazy, demanding work (ministry) schedules, forced fasts, lack of personal cash, time and living space. Gospel Masquerade on my blog roll will have more information as she came out of IHOP, as will Sadparent as her son and family are involved, and Truthspeaker also has some good articles, one of which I believe points out that even tho Bickle claims to have a moderate income his wife and he own all the property, which is substantial. If your church is taking on Bickle’s teachings it is in a very dangerous place spiritually. Bickle was one of the Kansas City prophets and last year we saw a joining of his ministry to others who are like-minded – false teachers, false prophets all with supernatural mindsets given more importance and emphasis than the teachings of the bible itself.

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  32. mkayla, i am happy to locate you. i am desperate and need advice. first i am not skilled with the use af a blog site.i looked for your e-mail or phone and couldn’t locate it or is that possible to communicate with you like that?
    i have someone that i love whom has become heavily involved with Andrew Wommack she now is enrolled in his college. in 2 short months since she has gone i cant believe how she has been decieved. she is a very wounded person and she seems to fit the mold the want to pull in. it has worked. she started via TV. she has dealt with severe depression, a abusive marrage and a bad home life. i need help from someone whom has seen the real truth and what can i do. she is so wound up about everything. all research about second blessing and how it’s mandatory and how you haft to speak in tongues i can co on and on is right in line with what has taken hold of her. can you help me. i have been praying
    relentlessly and seeking guidance on this. i am dire need on how to approach this. i have intended on asking for her hand in marrage and i am fearful that this may be slipping away. please help
    john williams

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    • John, the best you can do is to pray for her and to help her see and understand the excesses and lies of the word of faith when compared to scripture. It could be you are in a good position to do this given your close relationship with her. Is is possible to read the books/teaching from the school with her? It would be an easy way for you to see what she is being taught and then research it in the word. Make an effort to not speak badly about the school or Andrew Wommack. Stay focused on what she is being taught so that it does not sound like an attack against the person.

      Many charismatics and Pentecostals put a great emphasis on speaking in tongues, that it is necessary or a gift all should have. We don’t find that teaching in the scripture. In fact, we see that Paul put much more emphasis on the ability to expound truth of the gospel in words that could be understood by the hearers. Study those pertaining to that topic and you will see what I am getting at.

      The word of faith promises great things and they sound too good to be true. And they are. Unfortunately, for people who have been hurt a great deal or those who feel as tho they do not fit in they can be even more damaging. The Lord told us we would have great tribulation in this life, but to be of good cheer because He has overcome the world. So we do not need the big escape in blessing upon blessing (wof = materialistic) we have the promise that the Lord would never leave us alone in our hard times.

      I hope this helps you. I have more info on wof here on my blog that can also be beneficial. Let me know. 🙂

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  33. @ Nancy. There are so many of us who can relate to you. I am two-ish? years into rediscovering the pure truth after seeing the mixed truths I learned in Charismania. It was probably four years ago that one specific incident got my attention and got me asking questions of what I had learned about ‘the Kingdom.’

    For me it has taken quite some time, and is still ongoing. There were times I wondered if I’d have anything left, because it felt like so much I thought was ‘kingdom’ turned out to be man made concoctions. But the amazing thing is that as the half-truths and lies are being stripped away, the Lord Jesus shines brighter, truer, purer and holier than ever before.

    I repeatedly ask for the Spirit of Truth to teach me. Sometimes it seemed that was the only safe prayer I could pray as I so doubted my ability to discern the truth.

    He is faithful to do it.

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    • thank you ruthsongs..I appreciate your comments. Yeah, my “ability” to discern is pretty shaken. Right now I don’t want to talk to anyone about anything in fear that I will lead them astray. I guess if I ventured anything it would be to tell them to study the Bible…only! We’ve gotten so off track it ain’t funny; it’s scary. Jesus said this would happen; why aren’t we listening?

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  34. I don’t know the correct place to post this, M’Kayla, but I was wondering if you know what happened to sadparent’s blog. I just tried to go there and it’s gone. I fear her son may have given her an ultimatum to take it down (like a meeting of some sort). Whatever the situation, my heart goes out to her and her husband.

    Sadparent, if you’re reading this, be strong (1 Cor 1:7) and know that you have many brothers and sisters in Christ who are praying for you.

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    • Diane, I didn’t know she had taken it down, so it must have happened in the last day or two. I did send her an “aaaahhhhh!” e-mail. Thanks for letting me know. I do correspond with her quite often.

      Blessings.

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      • So glad to hear that this is good news! Having come out of a church with a heavy IHOP influence, I have been praying for her and closely following her story. I’ve even commented on her blog a few times. I will continue to pray for her.

        By the way, this is the same Diane that stumbled in here with many questions about a year ago (my posts in this thread start on November 12, 2009). Without getting into detail I want to say- God is so good; he whom the Son sets free is free indeed! Still learning and growing, and I stop by your blog often even though I don’t comment very often.

        Blessings to you!

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  35. mkyla, i am going thanksgiving week to visit her. need advice on how to start this discussion. is there any printed material
    avaliable in a outline form that i could use to organize my thoughts? i have started a notebook with info i have printed and printed every scripture so if necessary for bibical clarity. what would be a good way to start the conversation?
    she isn’t aware that she has been decieved. it may not go good. i realize that my attitude must be in love and truth.
    this week she seems to be struggling. i wonder if she is questioning some things. i know she misses her girls and there are money issues. i keep praying God will open her eyes.
    i feel sorry for all these people. it must be fustrating to really in your heart that all these things don’t add up.
    i guess what i need is some sort of guide line on how to approach this issue. there is so much to cover.
    thanks
    johnny

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    • Hi – I responded to your other comment.
      It could be that she is struggling. It is quite frustrating when we are taught blessing, blessing, prosperity, blah, blah and it does not manifest. We wonder what we are doing wrong, if God does not love us, if we are full of sin, out of His will – on and on and that is the place many leave the faith. These teachings are completely demonic, designed to separate us from our God!

      Like I said, tread lightly. You probably don’t need a lot of information so don’t get overwhelmed in trying to get a boat load of info together. Trust in the Lord.

      🙂

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  36. to others in this link

    have any of you been faced with having to discuss the doctrinal issues with the charismatic belief with someone.
    how did you approach it. how did you cover all aspects.
    how can i just say that you have been decieved? need help
    i need to be loveing and patient and pray God will prepare her
    heart to hear. any assistance would be great
    help

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    • John, I know you are struggling in this. I have approached people who I ministered with on the healing rooms. In letter format, I took their basic teachings and showed where they were not biblically correct. Afterward I took the pages of that letter and split it up into topics and started this blog. These are the articles and should help you as they are directed to basic WOF teachings –
      https://mkayla.wordpress.com/2009/06/06/generational-curses/
      https://mkayla.wordpress.com/2009/06/08/areallhealed/
      https://mkayla.wordpress.com/2009/06/08/holy-spirit-manifestations/
      https://mkayla.wordpress.com/2009/06/08/word-curses-do-our-spoken-words-have-power/
      https://mkayla.wordpress.com/2010/03/01/eating-off-the-wrong-tree/

      This is why I suggested it may be a good thing if you could see her books and the teachings as you would be able to go to the word and show her that the specific WOF teachings she is learning do not come from the bible.

      WOF teaches prosperity and blessings – health, wealth, etc. They believe it is God’s will for all to be healed of disease. So, with that in mind why are there so many examples of suffering and sickness in the NT? It is a good foundation to read about the disciples and what they endured because that is the proof of a Christian life. This is why Christ said we would have tribulation. And in his own suffering – us, being conformed to his image, his likeness will suffer too. Someone recently reminded me that the Christian life is one in which we lay our lives down and pick up our cross; the cross being a place of suffering and death. None of the disciples had gobs of money and instead they depended on God to provide all of their needs as they traveled about preaching the gospel. These WOFers have mansions and fleets of cars, some have private jets, vacation homes, and are rich not because God has blessed them, but because many send in their money! Not the same thing. We are blessed because while we were still sinners Christ died for us!

      Since this is your first “meeting” tread lightly. And if you do find the opportunity to show her the truth I would only do 2 or 3 otherwise it can be overwhelming. It is an awful place to be – mind-boggling to find what we have believed and worked at and followed after is not the truth. It wouldn’t be a good idea to go in with a comment “you have been deceived” right off because it puts it in a negative place. When that happens most often people become defensive and shut down. If she shuts down she may not be open to hear you and that is not what you want to have happen.

      A good place for wof info is “word on the word of faith” blog (on my blogroll). But again, and to encourage you, the bible is the best place to turn. And truly – refuting these teachings is not a hard thing to do. The Lord is with you. It is up to us to show the truth, but it is up to the Holy Spirit to reveal it to the people. He is the only one who can remove those blinders.

      I happened to turn on Godtv for a moment last week and caught Andrew Wommack. Of all the people or programs that could have been on at that time, there he was promoting his Charis Bible College. I was struck by his logo on his shirt which is much like the one Benny Hinn uses. A dove and a circle. I’ve tried to find it on the internet to post but have not been able to capture it to copy and paste. Not a big deal, just a little interesting trivia.

      I understand your desperation as I felt the same way about those I love when I was working on the research. You would feel even more so because of your love for her. Please be encouraged and find peace in the truth that God loves her even more.

      Stay in touch. 🙂

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  37. John,

    I just read a bit of your comments. What you described in your first comment: the “second blessing” must be what is also known as the “baptism of the Holy Spirit” which charismatics claim is evidenced by the individual speaking in tongues and perhaps “prophesying.” They say this may occur at initial water baptism, but does not always occur then. Therefore, the individual should keep trying until they get this experience either in another water baptism or by the laying on of hands by someone who already has this ‘gift.’ Or, they can get it by praying about it.

    I would suggest — if you haven’t already done this — looking up “baptism in the Holy Spirit” to see the ‘pro’ side of the argument; so, that you can know how to refute it yourself.

    Now, I don’t deny tongues speaking altogether; however, my personal opinion is that this is an easy way for entrance of the demonic. I’m not saying all who speak in tongues are of satan, though. However, if one starts speaking in a tongue and no one is able to interpret one must wonder what is really being said.

    While proponents of the “baptism of the Holy Spirit” will say there are no 2nd class Christians and if you don’t have this ‘gift’ it’s OK; the problem is that it is held in such high esteem that the individual DOES feel 2nd class if they don’t have tongues. They feel pressure to ‘perform’ if they don’t get this gift. And, I believe many fake it for this reason.

    Consequently, they may allow others to lay hands on them to ‘impart’ this gift. This is dangerous as Kundalini is passed in this manner (or, if you’re a really good shaktipat you can just motion with your hands or even blow on an individual to pass it).

    The bottom line is that its the Holy Spirit who gives out the gifts as He determines. [I Corinthians 12:11]

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  38. mkala,
    i want to update you on i feel God is doing something. as stated last week. cindy seems very down maybe flustered. i know being homesick has much do to with this. i have prayed that God would open her eyes and ears to hear and she would see that all this does not line up. she is so hung up on the baptism of the holy spirit. i guess when you attain this higher level of spirituallity you think all of us others are lessor. that is the most commented thing she has spoke of and healing second. planting seed’s is third. i am going to focus on one item at a time as you suggested. any additional info you have on the correct way to approach will be greatly appreciated. i believe God is doing something here. if she was walking in God’s will she would not be having these bouts of depression,financial,homesick,anxious and lonely feelings.
    do you agree? also God has not provided the money to appear in her bank account as she has been told. i know for a fact that this is causing some anxiety. i have been praying that God would allow confusion in there classes and to open all students eyes and He would have victory here..
    Please anyone whom reads this pray for Cindy and the others that have been decieved.
    Johnny

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    • Ok. Since she is so concerned with the baptism of the Holy Spirit take a look what the word teaches about it/Him. I sent you the link to the article on Holy Spirit Manifestations. That should be a good beginning. All I did there was take my knowledge in the false teaching I had been exposed to check it against the word. I only used Strong’s Concordance and my bible – it was that simple. WOF/charismania teaches a different work of their “spirit” than the one identified and explained as the Holy Spirit in the word. For example where does charismania find in the word that people are slain in the spirit by the presence and power of the Holy Spirit? They cannot prove it by the word. But they do explain it as being attributed to what takes place when our small frame encounters a powerful God. Look to the word tho – What happens to the men that God visited and spoke to by visitation, often by angels? They became very fearful, usually falling on their faces or on their knees and not backward onto the floor! They had to be told “fear not” and were stood back to their feet to receive the message from God. He does not knock us around, and guess what? He never visited a woman or knocked her down! This sounds more like the actions of an attacker than a loving caring God! Also consider Galatians 5:22-23, the fruits of the Spirit which does not include such acts of violence.

      And yes, they do believe they have an anointing higher than other believers which also does not line up in scripture. The Holy Spirit is given to all believers, He is the one who leads us into truth, reveals and convicts us of sin. That how He functions and He does it in love and kindness and is why He is referred to as the Comforter.

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  39. mkayla,
    check out the 700 club webb site. click on amazing stories
    then click on article jeff markin back from the dead.
    there is also a article on the doctor that did this.
    how can this be verified? there should medical evidence and procedure to document if this is true.

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    • The 700 Club has lots of amazing and miraculous stories. I do believe God still works miracles. I cannot say if this was an act on His part or something set up so more people would send in their money. I hate that I have to be that way but there has been so much lying for the sake of fortune and fame. (I financially supported this ministry for a time.) I have to question if God wanted this man raised why it was necessary to “shock” him. And what of the “darkness”? I have to think if someone is actually raised the story would be rebroadcast all over the world and the media would be nuts about it! Ken Hagin also tells his story of being “rescued” from Hell. The WOFers are full of stories yet so many are still without salvation. This grieves me because I had such a fondness for Pat Robertson. I still hope and pray that these people would find true salvation and return to the real work of the gospel and teaching that edifies believers.

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  40. mkayla,
    again cindy made a statement about the baptism of the holy spirit. she said she wished that i understood how important it was. why is this such a issue for her? i don’t know how to respond. she seems so sure about this and i wonder if she is think that we are unyoked togather because of this.

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    • John,
      Exactly what is she finding so important that you do not? Again, your response is found in the word. These people in WOF are not baptised in the Holy Spirit. They are full of false teachings and all that goes with it. You can come to the place to say her lord is not the same as yours. If they believe something other than what the scripture is teaching then they are no longer following Jesus Christ. That makes the two of you unequally yoked.

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  41. mckayla, thursday night was a disaster. she brought up the same subject again. i responded in love and gave her a reference scripture. she got very angry and defensive. she stated that this issue is a deal breaker for us. anything i said, she refuted and argued no matter what the issue was. she said i was wrong and bibically ignorant to the things of God. She said you can’t argue scripture. it’s all in the Bible. to be honest i got flustered and mad to. God is the only one that can open her eyes at this point. thanks for your love and support in this.

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  42. mkayla, to update you. last night things didn’t go well over the phone. Cindy said we were uneaqually yoked again. this time i agreed. In love God gave me the ability to say some things to her. i agreed that we were unequally yoked and the reason i feel like this is because: you have allowed yourself to be self decieved by your lack of discernment. you have allowed yourself to beleive something other than what scripture preaches. your lord is not the same lord as mine.the false teachings and heresies of Wommack are not the truth.
    this may not be important but, she never once interupted,got mad, or hung up the phone.
    she wants to us to take a break?? i have no choice here.
    i told her that pretty much all that i have learned about this man and how she should concerning anything she is told there to weigh it search it go to God’s word and verify.
    she then aks me about Joseph Prince again in love i told the truth. i have canceled the trip. i ask you and all whom read this to pray that god will remove the scales from her eyes and that he will guide us thru in truth. i also told her that. i also ask her about her salvation in Jesus. that did offend her. there were several comments during the talk
    that were sarcastic. but, do you find it interesting that she allowed me to talk for a change? i don’t know what will happen. i do feel that when the money is gone and God does not put money in her account just maybe she will see the truth. she also said she would listen to Justin Peters CD,s
    on errors of the WOF. and i could send her some info and she would commit to read it as long as i read what she sends me. do you recommend that i do not overwhelm her with this. just a little at a time. thanks johnny

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    • Hi John.

      I do find it encouraging that she listened to you. It is unfortunate that we have been so conditioned in listening to “leaders – those who hear from God” when we should have been trained in bible study and discernment. We have become lazy over the decades not wanting to invest in the time and mind labor that it takes to become true disciples, wanting more of the waaa-hoo supernatural experiences, chasing after the manifestation of that miracle in which so many will be saved, healed, delivered. And as you pointed out, waiting for the cash – the blesssssinng – to make an appearance. Those who wait for these things continue to wait. It is not what we are taught in the word. When these things do not appear they tell us our faith is to blame. But the word of God says that He has given to everyone a measure of faith – see Romans 12:3. So, how is it that we cannot have enough? This scripture also reminds us not to think more highly of ourselves than we should. I have to think when we put out an expectation of God to perform according to our wishes, we do exactly that. Matthew 28:19-20 Jesus tells His disciples to make disciples of all the nations v19, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded in v20. That is what we are to do, and how we are to do it. Again, WOF/Charismania teachings are not found in the bible and it is safe to conclude they are not the teachings of Jesus Christ, but of prideful man.

      I have prayed for you and your friend and I will continue to. Leave room for the Lord to lead you in the next step, what to send her, what to say, and when. Jesus is Lord. Amen. 🙂

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    • Its good to gather and have fun – laugh, talk, play and even drink some coffee! When the focus is on reaching the lost we have to make sure we carve out the time to do that! I liked what the author said about being sensitive to the leading of the Holy Spirit in leading these to repentance. If we are in a hurry we are in the lead and the focus is off. This was a very good article.

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    • Maria, I don’t believe God sends prophetic words through false teachers – even if sermonindex approved it –
      The goings on at IHOP are false and dangerous and should be avoided at all costs.

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  43. Maria, you don’t need to apologize. If you see something and feel it needs to be exposed, please say so. I am not against posting a link if you can show why (scripturaly) it is false teaching. I’ve never heard of him either and I didn’t want to take the time – couldn’t spare it – to listen and research. I don’t do much on IHOP because I was never involved, except to buy M Edwards’ music. yeesh – bad stuff. So, if you would like to take this man’s teaching apart, please feel free and I will have a look at it. 🙂

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  44. There is only one place in the Bible that mentions “seven mountains.” Rev. 17:9–“And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.” I have always wondered why the church would choose that particular terminology because of what it is associated with in the Bible. The only mandate given by Jesus Christ to His Church is found in Matthew 28:18-20–“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, unto the end of the world. Amen.” Jesus came to save souls, not institutions. You cannot save the “media” or any of the other “mountains.” But you can preach the gospel to individuals that work in the media or the government, etc.

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  45. Cyndy, if I remember correctly, seven? mountains surround Jerusalem. That may be significant in the passage which you quoted.

    David M wrote, “In a nutshell, [‘worm theology’] seems to be the idea that God will show compassion to those who maintain a low view of themselves. Crudely speaking, that low self esteem is desirable, a kind of warped interpretation of our need for humility and the danger of pride and arrogance.”

    David, this verse is in both the OT and NT (Proverbs and one of Peter’s letters):

    “God gives grace to the humble, but resists the proud.”

    I don’t see any place in His kingdom for “self” at all, whether it’s self-confidence, self-esteem (He told us in Philippians to “esteem others better than ourselves), or any other “self”- words. I believe this is worldly teaching which puts “self” at the center of our lives. The Lord has made it clear that He, and He alone, is to be the center, the focus, of our lives — that we are to seek first HIS kingdom — and He has promised to meet our daily needs as we do so.

    Yes, He loved us when we were yet sinners. We love Him because He first loved us. I believe His great and mighty love is a reflection of His nature, not evidence that there was anything loveable about us before He made us new creatures in Christ Jesus. He has told us to crucify our flesh (another word for “self”). He has said we cannot serve two masters.

    I do not say this to be negative, at all. Only to try to bring a Scriptural balance to this subject which is sorely lacking in some parts of the Body today. We are living in the days which Christ Jesus prophesied. I am keenly aware of my own need to abide in Him more closely, to hold to Him more tightly, than I have ever done before. And I praise God that He is able to do exceeding, abundantly more than we can ask or think! He is always, always, always faithful.

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  46. 🙂 I’m just glad to have found you. I had a dangerous brush with a church here in Reno that follows very closely to Bill Johnson and Benny Hinn. I seem to be a magnet for this kind of thing. I love our Jesus so very very much and wanted to “hear” from Him so desperately that I was willing to do anything. He was faithful to a prayer I asked of Him many years ago. I said, “Lord, I don’t know what is ahead, but I sense danger. Just prepare me for it.” Your blog has strengthened me and opened my eyes to the fact that just because it “looks” like God, doesn’t mean it is… I reached out to the wrong one in a desperate attempt to have an experience with Him so I could feel special, anointed, and gifted spiritually. Alas, I realize I don’t need that to know I am His. He loves me. Someday I will stand face to face with Him. I long for that day, but know I have work to do here first. Blessings to you, M’Kayla for helping me see truth from lie.

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    • Michelle, that is the same direction many of us go. Praise God that He never leaves us and is faithful to bring us back to Him. Thanks for the kind comments and encouragement. Please let me know if I can help. 🙂

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  47. Bill Johnson’s signs and wonders teaching has been slowly creeping into our church. The leadership is setting up a School of the Supernatural similar to Bill Johnson’s to teach select individuals in the church; the main emphasis is on physical healing. I have heard from people in our church that a couple of individuals have experienced gold dust falling on their shoulders and Bibles.

    My wife was diagnosed with breast cancer last year and has since completed chemo and radiation treatments. My wife and I have had peace during this whole time and rely totally on God. My wife has been able to minister to other women she has met in the oncology waiting and infusion rooms.

    Several people that are following the Bill Johnson teaching have either said directly or implied, if my wife’s faith is strong enough, she will be healed. This has been hurtful to my family and to others in the church. At this point in time, my wife is doing great and her doctor is pleased with her progress. We continue to thank God for his mercy and blessings he bestows on us every day.

    Please pray that God will give me the knowledge I need when I present my concerns to my pastor. Unfortunately he and other members of the church leadership are very interested in this teaching. Thanks for listening.

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    • Tom, my heart goes out to you and your wife. Thank you for your testimony in the way the Lord is working with you both in your wife’s illness. Sad, and I know many are being led astray into the dangerous teaching of Bethel. I get many of these stories. We keep praying for them to see the truth. The Lord can bring people out of it – he did me. I will pray that your pastor heed your words and that the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth to all who listen to you.

      You may want to take a look at the comments under Gold Dust Phenomena. I think you will find some good words there and some comfort in being like minded with others.

      Let me know how/if I can help.

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  48. Mkayla, I finally started a blog on wordpress and wrote my first article…its crude but I wanted to pass it on to you and others to research it out as the bereans that you are.
    anyway I hid my name on it so family members and people from church that are still locked up in WOF and NAR doctrines could read it and possibly accept it…I will take emails on it and posts and you can repost if you want. but I believe this is Major!

    http://itisthetruth.wordpress.com/2012/03/02/the-truth-on-mark-1123/

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  49. M’Kayla, I was born into/grew up in a full gospel church and was under the teachings of (primarily) Derek Prince. Unfortunately, a few bad apples in the church caused a grievous wound in the young people of our church/school. Many left with bitterness and a skeptic eye for anything that had to do with “deliverance”. My aunt and uncle (who were in their senior years and could no longer be the ministers of our once spirit filled church had to turn it over to the assistant ministers. It only last a few more years before the rest of the members dispersed elsewhere. I strayed away from the whole church scene for many years as I, too, was gun-shy at anything that had to do with casting out spirits and getting cleansed of the curses upon my life and body. My aunt and uncle would have flipped their lids had they known all the stuff taking place in our little church and k-12 school. Anyhow, long story short, I have been returning to the Lord recently and got heavily involved in the teachings of Patricia King and Bill Johnson. Truly, the only teachings I feel (mostly) comfortable with right now are from Heidi Baker. But even she has the whole “WHOA” thing that she does that I am not sure about. I have been slain in the spirit and have spoke in tongues but never experienced this “WHOA” thing. I just recently started feeling a little skeptical of the teachings of the little church I have been attending that is the first in our west Texas area that follows under the teachings of Bill Johnson. I truly was excited at first since I so loved Patricia King and Heidi Baker. I didn’t know much about Bill Johnson tho until recently. Our pastor is one of Bill Johnson’s very own. So, now after doing all this research about him (Bill) I am so very confused and not sure what to believe anymore!!! This is my entire life’s beliefs we are talking about here!! (and I am 34) My mind is reeling. I guess I just need some guidance. I feel like their is a small voice telling me to just stop trying to find a “teacher” to guide me but, instead, to pick of the Word and figure it all out for myself (if that’s possible). I have never been much of a student of the Word (even tho I had Bible class throughout my schooling). I have just always floated through life with the thought of “whatever”. Until I had a powerful encounter with the Lord at a Patrica King/Heidi Baker conference here in Texas several years ago. Since then I thirst for a deeper relationship with the Lord but now find my mind so confused about it all that I just want to give up on all of it altogether. Any words of wisdom for me? I appreciate any and all insight. 🙂

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    • Loyal,
      My dear, you have found yourself in the lap of some very influential and convincing false teachers. My advice to you, and the same for me when I found the truth, is to repent and turn from these people. the experiences you have had are quite powerful, but are not of God. they are demonic. Please pay attention to your concerns because it is the voice of God, the Holy Spirit who is attempting to lead you out. Make no way for further false teachings, Get them out of your house and turn to scripture. the Holy Spirit will lead you to the truth. You may be in for a battle, so be prepared. there is a lot of information to help you here on my blog and the links. the most important step is repentance and then a turn to devoting yourself to prayer and the word of God.

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      • Thank you M’Kayla for responding. Yes, very influential teachers with error in doctrine. I did what you advised and repented for these beliefs that I not only grew up under but took on as my own beliefs. The whole “signs, wonders and manifestations” was not really an issue in the little church I grew up in but I fell for it hook, line and sinker when I got heavily into Patricia King. Regardless, I was under the teachings of Derek Prince and Benny Hinn most of my young life so for that I also repented. Actually, I just repented for my entire young adult life all the way up the present time. I am just so confused that I really don’t even know what all to repent for! Anyhow, I have unsubscribed to all of the Word Of Faith teachers emails that I used to get on a daily basis. Also, I have many books by all of them as well that line my treasured book case. Guess I should get rid of them as well. Yes, I have had some truly powerful experiences that is hard for me to accept that they were not of God. But, I want to start fresh with a clean slate. Let HIM be my guide and teacher. Thank you again for responding to me. I will do as you advise and take advantage of the many information links on your page to help me in my efforts of getting the old mind set out of my life and daily thinking. I will be visiting your page daily.

        With much love,
        Angela

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        • Angela/loyal
          If they are hard for you to accept, try finding them in the bible – a great way to learn the truth. 🙂 This was the direction I took too. One by one, I researched the teachings of the healing rooms and found they were based on scripture twisting, out of context, etc. The research can be quite freeing and a good way to feed your mind. As for the books, build a fire. I like s’mores! LOL! I am confident the Lord will renew your mind. Enjoy your journey of truth – I am celebrating with you!

          Praise the Lord!

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  50. BTW, I just read your story and all I can say is WOW!!! Our stories are very similar! I almost started crying just reading it all…knowing that I am not alone! I was literally born into full gospel, spirit filled, PIGS IN THE PARLOR teachings. I went my entire life to our church (as the owners/ministers were my aunt and uncle to eventually finished raising me after my father died when i was 12 and i ran away from my lesbian mother at age 9). I itch to share my entire life story with your but my fingers would fall off before I could type it all out. Anyhow, my entire existence has been based on the teachings of Derek Prince, Benny Hinn, Jan and Paul Crouch, John Hagee and so many more. Heck, I remember in our little shcool of about 40 when all of the kids in the school were “flushed” they would put on Benny Hinn in the middle of our little school and turn it up real loud to help cleanse the air or whatever. Then, the “bad apples” would use deliverance as punishment for doing something wrong like kissing a boy. The two or three of ‘them’ would take us nextdoor to our little church next to our school building and there we would put our noses into the carpet and start deliverance of the evil spirit that had caused us to get into trouble. Most of the time it was us teens that would get put on the carpet and poked and prodded to the point of leaving bruises. Apparently, it took DIGGING with their thumbs and elbows to get the UNCLEAN spirits to leave. *ROLLING EYES* This was pretty regular for us. And we were really not allowed to associate with other kids outside of our little school and church which I look back on now and think , um….CULT. Sheesh, just typing all of this out makes me want to crawl under a rock. Anyhow, I saw many spontaneous deliverances take place out our little church growing up…so much so that it became no big deal to see someone (usually strangers to our church) fall on the floor during alter call and begin writhing and foaming at the mouth while making animal/growling sounds…heck, i have even seen a few whose voice literally turned into something out of a nightmare and begin speaking with MULTIPLE voices. Of course, the deliverance team would converge on the writhing stranger and do their casting out of spirits routine until the stranger was vomiting a substance that very much resembled FROGS. Yes, this all sounds very ‘out there’ but this was just normal life for me. I just accepted what I witnessed on a regular basis and experienced as “the way it was”. It was our way so it must the be right way and only way. Right? LOL

    I guess I just want to give you a little taste of where I am coming from here…I, too, became very bitter after turning 18 and getting married. Many of the kids in our shcool/church became angry with what all had taken place in our lives (things that my elderly aunt and uncle knew nothing about). Years later, I got the nerve up to tell my frail little aunt about the things that had been done to us…things that had been said to us…things that had been shown to us…all to instill FEAR. She sobbed for hours. She literally could not stop crying over the atrocity. Those bad apples were eventually kicked out of the ministry but by then the damage had been done. So, there ya have it…a little glance at what I grew up under.

    All I care about now is finding the TRUTH. Following the TRUTH. But I hope that along with that truth comes a true father/daughter feeling with the Lord as well. I had that once with Him many many years ago…I was a happy Christian…happy because I could feel the love of God for me in my life on a daily basis. We communed through prayer. I felt for the FIRST TIME in my existence that I finally belonged. I belonged to the Lord of Lords and He loved me with all of His heart. Of course, I know that He still does but I no longer feel Him in my life. I feel as if I am just talking to the flys on the wall when I pray. This breaks my heart. 😦

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  51. Loyal,

    Whether you “feel” God in your life or not, His Word tells you the truth. Seek Him out in His Word, for Who He is.

    “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our LORD Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so, but we rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out His love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom He has given us.” (Romans 5: 1-5)

    So, hope does not disappoint us…not because I say so, but because the Word of God says so. And that is the truth.

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  52. I wrote to you last year on October 27 regarding Bill Johnson’s teachings creeping into our church. Since then, it has been a roller coaster of emotions, pain, and heartache.
    My wife and I met with our pastor and his wife and voiced our concerns about Johnson’s teachings. I asked why he felt they needed to use that particular curriculum for a class. He said it was material already prepared and he would omit any teaching that was not Biblical. I also think part of the reason was someone had already purchased the course curriculum for ~$6300.00. At the end of the meeting, our pastor and his wife wanted to come to a point where we could agree to disagree. I told them that that was not an option for me and my family.
    The school was started at our church using Bethel’s School of the Supernatural curriculum. There are 20-30 people that have been attending the classes with our pastor as the spiritual leader. I have heard that people have been finding gold dust, gemstones and also seeing angels alongside the video screen. There are people starting to attend our church because of the class and the Sunday preaching which has a bent towards signs and wonders.
    There have been several incidents where I and others have been verbally attacked for questioning Johnson’s teachings. I have asked friends of mine that are taking the class if they have ever done any research on Bill Johnson and the other teachers in the series. None of them had and also had no interest in doing so.
    We finally got to the point where we had a letter signed by a number of people in the congregation asking for Bill Johnson’s teachings and the curriculum to be examined by our denomination’s Board of Theology. The church council agreed and the wheels were set in motion. The board had a visit with some of the people that had a concern with the teachings and also with our pastor. There have been phone conversations and e-mails traded as the board makes a decision on how to handle the situation. Our pastor will be meeting with the board again this weekend.
    I feel horrible that the situation had to come this far. I know my pastor feels as if I have betrayed him. I feel like I am floundering without having a pastor to go to for counsel and advice. Luckily I have a strong network of friends from our church and other churches in the area.
    I am not sure how this is going to end up. I am afraid that it will ultimately split the church in one way or another. I have often wondered if I would have been better off leaving the church quietly and not calling the teaching into question, but I know it was something I had to do. A pastor friend of mine gave me encouragement yesterday with the following quote:
    If I profess with the loudest voice and clearest exposition
    every portion of the truth of God except precisely that little
    point which the world and the devil are at that moment
    attacking, I am not confessing Christ, however boldly I
    may be professing Christ.
    Where the battle rages, there the loyalty of the soldier is
    proved, and to be steady on all the battlefield besides
    is mere flight and disgrace if he flinches at that point.
    -MARTIN LUTHER Works of Martin Luther. 18 Vols. 3:18.

    I am sorry if this was a bit disjointed. Thank you for lending your ear and providing the truth to others.
    In Christ Alone,
    Tom

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    • Tom, I am glad that you took the stand that you did because, hard as it is, we are called to speak the truth, to warn others and to flee from all forms of evil, including false teaching. To agree with the false and to allow this kind of preaching/teaching to go on is to share in it and to be found guilty of the same thing.

      God is calling His people out of the false church, which has become a playground of Satan. Many people, because of their pride and desires of the flesh will be swept away. They are blind and foolish.

      You have lost nothing and failed no one.

      Continue to stand in knowing that these things that you face, the words that you have spoken are shared by many true believers in Christ throughout the world. It will become harder and darker in the coming days, so let’s resolve ourselves to stand strong, shaken by nothing.

      You have friends here. 🙂

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  53. Loyal,
    My two cents worth…
    1. Do not ignore those nagging little questions.
    2. Be patient.
    3. You are not alone.

    God is not afraid of honest questions. God is not put off if you need to take a step back and look HARD at what you have been taught. If it is truth, it will stand up to the scrutiny. If it is not, then you will have done what every believer should do- test and discern as you compare what you believe to scripture. If anyone even implies that honest questions are rebellious, run away as fast as you can. They do not know the power of God.

    You don’t have to be a Bible scholar. Just take a little time and read the Bible. Pray and just keep reading. The Holy Spirit is amazingly good at opening our eyes. He loves you, knows everything you’ve been through and knows exactly how to teach you.

    When I was in a similar place, I went to the Lord and laid it all on the table. I couldn’t repent of specific things. I was way too confused and full, full, full of questions and doubt. It seemed like my whole belief system was at stake. Well, almost all of it. Basically I prayed, ‘It’s all up for grabs except the very basics; that You are the only begotten Son of God, Saviour of the World, born of a virgin, crucified, buried and risen and now seated at the right hand of God. Other than that, I submit every thing I think I know to your Word (as written in the Bible, not prophetic words from people in my or other churches) and Your truth.’ He very gently began to show me some of the false beliefs I held/ had been taught.

    It took quite a bit of time before I could even articulate any of it, and I came to this blog often to bounce things off of others (and sometimes do a little venting).

    You may be very confused right now, but He will sort it out. You may not know what to repent of at this point, but a pure heart cry of willingness to let Him show you the truth will set you on the path of truth.

    My experiences were not as “out there” as yours, but that whole school/church thing sure rang a bell, only I was in the teacher’s shoes. Nothing as severe took place in my former school, but “deliverance” was definitely vastly mis-understood, mis-applied, and magnified into something completely foreign to scripture. Every conflict, or stupid thing a student did, was perceived as some kind of demonic influence and blown way out of proportion -spurring a deliverance session, instead of just calling it for what it was- our human nature’s bent toward sin and rebellion.

    What was really needed was good, solid teaching to open the eyes, especially with teens who are becoming aware of their personal responsibility to respond to the Gospel. Instead of a “deliverance session” what was needed was the Word of God preached and taught, calling us to God, and teaching us how to submit to Him and follow and obey Him.

    One more thing. That ‘distance’ you feel when you pray, I know it well. It is no cause for heartbreak. I think it is part of the way the Lord works in this situation. You will have to BELIEVE what He says in the midst of the dry feelings. Looking back now, I see that it was actually very important in letting me discern actual truth from all of the highly charged experiences I had had.

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  54. Tom,
    I’d also add to M’Kayla’s message to remember that, even if others fight against you now, you have planted seeds of truth. That is really hard to do sometimes. But, God is so very patient with us, and maybe He will work truth through those seeds into the hearts of people who aren’t listening now.

    I went through a period of really yearning for that church home and a good pastor, and it was so painful to stand agaist people who I had thought were brothers and sisters in the LORD. I thought the word-of-faith church that I was attending was awesome (at first). I really believed that God had taken me to the most loving church family on the planet. I just loved these people so much. As soon as the false teachings were addressed and questioned, those “loving” people turned out to have fangs and claws…and they knew how to use them to greatest effect. It was brutal, but it was a really important wake up call for me. God used that cruelty to drive me away from a very dangerous place. Through it all, the LORD kept reminding me that He is my Shepherd, and I shall not be in want.

    My mom used to challenge me all the time: “If you saw all your friends jumping off a bridge to drown, would you do it too?” Spiritually, that is a great deal of what is happening in these churches. If your church ultimately splits (or if you end up having to walk away), just remember that Jesus came to divide….and His Word does just that.

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  55. M’Kayla and just1of his,

    Thank you for the encouragement. As I mentioned, sometimes I second guess myself and wonder if I am doing the right thing going against my pastor and my friends.

    Unfortunately our church is not the only one in the area that is being infected by Bill Johnson’s teaching. By having support amongst themselves and also in the BSSM curriculum having Bill Johnson encourage them to remain firm in their beliefs, it makes for a hard road.

    A few members of the BSSM school are more steeped in Bethel than others. At least a couple have visited Bethel in Redding and have been through fire tunnels. One person has been prayed for to receive an impartation. Hopefully this weekend, light will illuminate the darkness.

    In Christ Alone,

    Tom

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  56. loyaldidymus,

    If I could jump in here for one moment…

    Before you throw away your material, I may be interested in (some of) it for research purposes – that is, unless M’Kayla would like to have the material. If you, loyaldidymus, would like to consider this, you could contact me through the “About” tab on my blog (just click on my name to get to CrossWise).

    Thanks,

    Craig

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  57. M’Kayla:
    I found this on Elijah’s List and posted it to Craig’s website in response to his last post (regarding Chuck Pierce and One New Man). I wasn’t sure what to post it under here, so you put it where you want:

    From the desk of Steve Shultz:

    This is a very encouraging word from a very accurate prophet and a dear friend of mine, Bob, and his wife Bonnie Jones. Read it closely because it refers, in my opinion, to at least a dual interpretation if not at least three interpretations.
    Also, would you do me a favor? Please help us keep sending you words by buying as many prophetic items as you are able to from the Elijah List at this link: http://www.elijahshopper.com. You might save a buck by buying it online through Amazon, but you’ll help us build the Kingdom more effectively if you buy things through us. Will you consider that “proposal”? Thank you for supporting us!
    ________________________________________

    A Time of Completion and New Connections

    By Doug Addison:
    Saturday August 18th as Bob was taking a nap he went into a trance and began to prophesy in rhythm. The first section of this message is what he spoke in that trance-like state while the second section is what he was shown.

    Mercy-naries
    “Shortly there will be a war that I will declare and it will be a great victory! For I am going to hire mercy-naries, you see, and I shall pay well when they work for Me. Health and peace of mind will be their pay and joy they never knew. Money will be the least of things for I will prosper them in all ways. Mercy-naries are professional soldiers that have fought in many lands and fought in many battles. They are well trained in the sword, you see.
    “The Word of God I will put in them and that will be their victory. They shall know defeat no longer, but they shall be victorious. They shall know honor in Me. There will be no defeat for them. They are warriors and I will give them the victory. My pay to them shall be love, joy and peace that they will have within themselves. This shall be the tip of the sword of which they touch many. They have been warriors in many religious churches. Now I call them unto “the Church” and they will have a victory in Me.” Amen.

    Battle Proven Warriors
    Bob was shown that these mercy-naries are old warriors; scarred and battle proven. They are going to fight for a nation that they are not a citizen of (Ephesians 2:19). They have fought in many battles and scarred by the religious spirit. This religious spirit will no…(more) This religious spirit will no longer be able to touch them because they have been healed and delivered from it.

    These mercy-naries know how to utilize every weapon in the armory of God. They’re familiar with each weapon and His battle plan. As many of the old leadership have gone home, these warriors will replace them. They will be the ones on the front line of the battle field and total mercy will be their mission.
    Joel’s Army!

    Joel 2:1:
    Blow the trumpet in Zion,
    And sound an alarm in My holy mountain!
    Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble;
    For the day of the Lord is coming,
    For it is at hand:

    These are the days Joel prophesied! The Father will blow the trumpet in Zion and call His army into formation (Amos 1:1). These are not battle weary soldiers but warriors well-armed in the power of the Word and the fear of the Lord. They march forward in the might of the Holy Spirit never breaking rank. They never strive against one another but move in unity forming God’s most powerful army.

    Joel 2:7-10:
    They run like mighty men,
    They climb the wall like men of war;
    Every one marches in formation,
    And they do not break ranks.
    They do not push one another;
    Every one marches in his own column
    Though they lunge between the weapons,
    They are not cut down.
    They run to and fro in the city,
    They run on the wall;
    They climb into the houses,
    They enter at the windows like a thief.
    The earth quakes before them,
    The heavens tremble;
    The sun and moon grow dark,
    And the stars diminish their brightness.

    God is Declaring War!
    The Father declares war but the mercy-naries fight it at His command. We are the soldiers of fortune on this land. Our fortune is to do His Will. There will be great prosperity in His peace of mind, joy and love. The voice of the Father is the only one they will hear as they march forward into battle. Their life is spent on doing the Father’s will. Not one will cower to the fear of man or be led astray by the enemy.

    Joel 2:11
    The Lord gives voice before His army,
    For His camp is very great;
    For strong is the One who executes His word.
    For the day of the Lord is great and very terrible;
    Who can endure it?

    Note: Mercy is not getting the judgment that we deserve.
    Nary simply means not any; no; never a: nary a sound.

    Bob and Bonnie Jones
    The Prophetic Ministry of Bob and Bonnie Jones

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  58. M’Kayla, do you know who Eric Ludy is and if so do you know much about his ministry? He is one of the men who helped with the video on the roots of the emergent church movement. What he says seem right on and I want to like his teachings but I feel as though I am not yet in a place to be able to decide what is pure doctrine and what’s not. I feel as if I am grieving in a sense from all of this new information. Thank you.

    Angela

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    • I watched about 20 minutes of the video you attached. I have never heard of this man, but what I did hear from him did ring true to me. When I was doing my research, I referenced Lighthouse Trails, Apprising Ministries, Moriel and later found Critical Issues Commentary – Bob DeWaay. You will find more information on the side bar by their names and the catagory for Emergent. I also recommend the videos by Roger Oakland.

      A good video here done by a former Catholic Priest. I found his information quite valuable.

      At the very bottom of the Emergent church movement is nothing but plain old rebellion to God. How often in that 20 minutes of watching did I hear over and again that these leaders did not like Christianity? Well, I am sorry, but there is no changing God’s plan. It is what it is! And my! Having to wake up every morning and decide whether or not I even believe in Jesus?! You see, this is another example of who is and who is not truly a Christian. Yes, we can have doubts, but we give ourselves over to His Lordship and in return we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth, to reveal Christ to us.

      These men in the video are quite dangerous, yet their churches and following have grown leaps and bounds.

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  59. Good morning M’Kayla ,

    When I first found your site, I was at the very beginning of my education on Bethel , Word of Faith, and signs and wonders. I have come to realize how naïve I was at that time thinking that I and a small group of people at church could convince the church leadership that the teaching they were following was false.
    Our church had a very active prayer ministry for many years and we saw God at work in many instances. A few years ago, things started to slowly change. A Theophostic Prayer study was formed and a group was started using Ed Smith curriculum. During regular prayer time, the leadership started telling folks when they prayed not to say “your will be done”, because we know what God’s will is for us… to be healthy and not financially strapped.
    Andrew Wommack books started showing up in the church and were being read by people attending the TP sessions. When challenged about Wommack’s aberrant teachings, it would be brushed aside with comments like: “you eat the meat and spit out the bones.” We started hearing that people were attending conferences with Wommack, Johnson and others as speakers. Later we found out that some had gone through fire tunnels and been prayed over to receive impartations. There started to be talk about a Bethel School of the Supernatural in our town.
    After meeting with our Pastor and other leadership, we thought maybe the BSSM school would not be started at our church in an effort to try and maintain unity. It opened anyways with little fanfare. Our group was fairly discreet in informing a few people in the congregation about what was happening. We provided material and asked them to do some additional research and form their own opinions about the teaching. There were a few people concerned about the teaching but the level of concern has died off as the months passed by.
    In the past, I watched a friend try and bring truth into his church when the Synod Wide Assembly voted in favor of disregarding God’s Word. I saw him stand up to his clergy and friends, and ultimately he was asked to leave the church. I could see people start to get tired of hearing him try and speak the truth. I can see the same thing happening to me and others in my group. They just don’t care.
    A few nights ago, a prophetess was invited to come into the church for a prayer session. This was done under the radar without a general announcement to the congregation. I was given a call by a friend to see if I wanted to attend. I could not make it but my brother did go to observe. He was sitting near the back of the room when the lady said there was someone in the room that thought her teaching was from the devil. She looked at my brother and said “could that be you?” Then she laughed and brushed it off as if it was a joke. She gave her testimony and started prophesying about the great revival that was going to take place in our state. Our Pastor asked her “what do we need to do to help this take place?” She rambled on for quite a while and my brother left the meeting. The friend that had invited me to the meeting contacted me the following night to give me an overview and her impressions. She told me there were two people there that saw a feather floating around in the air and started praising God for the miracle. My friend was wearing a down vest to the meeting and it was leaking some down. She told one of the people about the source of the feather but the other person remained mesmerized.
    The night after the meeting, my brother approached our Pastor with a question about one of the statements the prophetess made. The Pastor got in his face and shot back a barrage of statements regarding people opposing the teachings. He told my brother that our opposition was hindering God’s work.
    I have come to the realization that we will not be able to convince the leadership the teaching is bad. I had the opportunity to speak with Justin Peters earlier this year and he told me if the leadership was involved in the teaching it would be nearly impossible to bring the truth forward.
    I understand part of the reason for this site is to let others in the same situation know we are not alone. It has been cathartic to be able to write this note along with a couple of others I have posted.
    There has been some good in my life that has come out of this; I have studied the Bible more and examined my beliefs
    For the people reading this that have gone through a similar situation, was the false teaching ever stopped or did you end up leaving the church?
    Thanks for this site!

    In Him,
    Tom

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    • Thank you Tom.
      We are told in the bible to warn of false teachers and false prophets. Doing so is a matter of obedience to the Lord as much as it is an act of love toward Him and others. If we go in with the idea that many will listen we stand a great chance of disappointment. We know we will be rejected but we do it anyway. And then, we get out, thankful to the Lord that He loved us enough to show us the truth; our ears that heard and eyes that saw were gifts of discernment through the Holy Spirit.

      I left the Healing Rooms Ministry, The Vineyard church and all the connections I had between them, the teachings, the worship music, the books, dreams and visions and their interpretations. I began attending a “bible” church and just as I began to get comfy I found they were “emergent”, involved in contemplative prayer, lectio divina, etc. When I and 2 other ladies met with the pastor with our concerns it was quite ugly. Nothing changed, and after seeing them become involved in other things just as damaging, I realized the leadership, elders, those put in place to “guard the flock” weren’t paying attention. I left that church about a year ago and haven’t been to another since. Those two ladies still attend. The bible says to allow this to go on is to share in it and to be guilty of the same.

      People believe what they want to believe. They will tag the name of Jesus on anything just so they can have what they want and feel safe about it; a very dangerous place for all of them to be at.

      As painful as it is, Tom, rejoice and be glad that you have been given a nugget of wisdom and guidance that many others have not. We are called to unity, but not to join with others who even have a hint of false teaching and certainly not for the sake of “meeting”. Ask the Lord to guide you and give you opportunities to continue sharing the true gospel. You will find healing and strength as you continue in this journey! He is bringing others out and it is greatly encouraging for me to hear those stories.

      Colossians 1:21-23, 2:5-10
      2 John 10, 11
      1 Peter 3:8-18
      2 Timothy 3:1-7, 4:1-5
      1 Timothy 5:22
      2 Peter 2

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  60. Tom said, “There has been some good in my life that has come out of this; I have studied the Bible more and examined my beliefs.”

    So, God is working everything for your good. I am so absolutely grateful to God for that, brother!

    “For the people reading this that have gone through a similar situation, was the false teaching ever stopped or did you end up leaving the church?”

    Though incredibly heartbroken, I ran for the door. Delusion comes to people, because they don’t love the truth (see 2 Thes). It is a judgment from God. While I continue to pray for those our family fled from, we fled anyway. I believe there are many who read and post to this blog who would tell you similar stories.

    If you stay, they will likely label you as “having a demon” (or more politely say you have a “religious spirit”…same thing). You will likely become the scapegoat for the healings and things that don’t flow from the church. They need someone to point the finger at when God doesn’t do all the things they say He must; and, in my experience, it is always those who are questioning them through the Word of God. If the church leadership has completely bought into all the BJ garbage, then you will be the one they want to protect their members from. The word-of-faith crowd is a very superstitious bunch. Your words of truth from scripture will be deemed as something having a negative “force” that can harm the faith of others. It is just so backward and hurtful. And it is a devestating thing to experience from brothers and sisters you have loved in the LORD.

    Peace in Jesus to you, Tom. I pray that God lead you where He would have you be.

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  61. absolutely: just one of his is right… gentle questioning led to some serious allegations against my character.. ( i have enough discernment to know this was going to happen before it did too….). & 2 other ladies who brought up similar issues at the same time (independant of me)… the leadership were desperate to proove some sort of collusion between us which there was none because we had all heard from God seperately in the first instance.. if a faction had be prooved they would have probabaly asked us to all leave there & then… there was noooo way they could consisder that what we were bringing was actually of God,, no way under heaven that they would entertain the thought, even slightly, that it was possible they were mislead about Bethel/ BJ

    you see if you are under a leader/ship that belives it cannot be decievd because they are the elite – why the need for discernment (from anyone)…. using my God given gift of discernment & my biblically endorsed right to bring a question & a challenge ended up with me having an accusation of having “attitude problem” behaving childishly & having not been “discipled correctly”

    we were basically told, get in the river or find another church!

    devastatingly thats what it comes to… be strong in your choice

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  62. Thank you, M’Kayla, for responding about the video. You provided some very good info to help me with my research. I search and search and begin to think who am I to trust (other than the Bible, of course). I will read what someone says about this or that but I have to tell you that I always end up coming back to your blog and all of your info along with re-reading your own personal story. Ultimately, you and what you provide for research are the only trustworthy sites I have found that I can be at peace. Thank you so much M’Kayla for dedicating yourself to do all that you have done here. It has blessed me greatly.

    PS…I have struggled with depression and anxiety most of my life (I know now that it has much to do with my very troubled childhood but I was told and was treated as if it were demons when I was young). I would love to know if you have any info on dealing with these issues from a Christian perspective?

    With much love,
    Angela

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  63. Dear “loyal”,

    Here is a video clip of ax-murderer Karla Faye Tucker who would become the first woman executed in Texas in 100 years. My friend, you have been truly set free. Just believe!I I apologize for the foreign subtitles…couldn’t find this particular clip without them.

    When I was at my lowest point, Jesus reminded me that I needed to keep looking ahead to Him, everything else is a lie. It has no hold on you if you cling to Him.

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    • Diane Keaton played a lead role in the movie about her, Crossed Over, staring Jennifer Jason Leigh. It was quite good, as was the book Set Free. I remember hearing about her all those years ago.

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  64. just1ofhis, thank you so much for posting the video…i researched her a bit more and all i can say is wow!! what an amazing testimony!!! btw, do you have a blog that i could follow? i have read many of your posts on other blogs and they very much remind me of m’kaylas…i want to be able to reference stuff on the blogs of those whom i trust.

    Like

    • Just remember, there is nothing special about US who write. We are dependent on the Holy Spirit for guidance, counsel and wisdom. The Lord will lead anyone into greater understanding in the knowledge of Him who truly has a heart to know Him. All any of us has to do is ask, spend time in prayer and a bit of research and the truth will unfold. Please don’t put us above you in these things because that is the first step into deception. We need to hold each other accountable.

      John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
      Matthew 7:7-8 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

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      • I understand. Still, I am so thankful for your blog, M’Kayla.

        On a different note, have you ever heard of Grantley Morris at net-burst.net?

        This is the testimony of a woman who struggles with bipolar disorder and feelings of rejection from God. This hits so very close to home with me yet I have never shared this with anyone. I often wonder if I, too, am bipolar. I had a very unstable childhood and was witness to things involving my mother that no child should ever have to see. I have large gaps in my memory and there have been times that something will trigger a memory to surface and because of the wretched feeling that comes over me because of the memory I shut it down by whatever means possible . So much that I could write about but I am unable to articulate most of it.

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        • I won’t be posting the link you left. I understand your concerns regarding bi-polar and having had a bad childhood myself you should know that is something we share. I put my faith and trust in the Lord. I have great rejection issues that continue to be with me but I have finally realized these are lies of the enemy from the past. It is something I am learning to live with and to not give weight to when those thoughts or feelings come.

          I hope that you can find someone trustworthy and biblically sound to help you with your needs. I do believe God can heal us of past trauma. I know from my own time in therapy that these gaps are the mind’s way to protect us from further harm. It might be good to leave them alone and just deal with what you can remember. Trying to open dark and closed areas can bring more harm than good. You would greatly benefit from someone who can help you understand that the past cannot hurt you now, and take to heart that you were a child with absolutely no control nor choice in those matters. Once that happens the need to shut down will diminish and eventually disappear altogether. You are an adult with control now of how you think, respond and live. 🙂

          Blessings to you and may the peace of the Lord rule your heart and mind. 🙂

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  65. Awesome reminder, M’Kayla, and I don’t have a blog. I learn so much from M’Kayla’s blog and others like it, I wouldn’t even know where to start with one. But the greatest thing here is the reminder often given that Jesus alone is the Head and His Word is our greatest pursuit. If any of us make any worthwhile contribution, it is ONLY because the LORD put it in our hearts and on our minds (and provided computers to type on).

    Case in point, several days ago a dear friend reminded me about Karla Faye Tucker as she was giving some of the “Set Free” books away. I didn’t even think of posting that on my own. God had to plant the seed as I hadn’t thought about her in a long time. So that was a message from HIM for you, and I was little more than the fingers that did the typing. That is why we need each other and a big dose of humility, and we need Him above and beyond anyone else.

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  66. “O God, you are my God,
    earnestly I seek you;
    my soul thirsts for you,
    my body longs for you,
    in a dry and weary land
    where there is no water.” (Psalm 63:1)

    “On my bed I remember you;
    I think of you through the watches of the night.
    Because you are my help,
    I sing in the shadow of your wings.
    My soul clings to you;
    your right hand upholds me.” (Psalm 63:6-8)

    My soul finds rest in God alone;
    my salvation comes from Him.
    He alone is my rock and my salvation;
    He is my fortress, I will never be shaken. (Psalm 62:1-2)

    As to God’s opinion of the help of man:

    Give us aid against the enemy, for the help of a man is worthless.
    With God we will gain the victory, and He will trample down our enemies. (Psalm 60:11-12)

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  67. I keep thinking of Paul’s “thorn in the flesh”…do you think this might have been his past that kept him humble or something else?

    just1ofhis, thank you for posting those scriptures! I really do not read Psalms enough and I forget how beautifully David speaks to God…it really it quite soothing.

    M’Kayla, I am glad to know you understand where I am coming from…so many do not. I, too, have great rejection issues and I struggle with this almost daily. I know that I am not supposed to respond to “emotions” but I am only human and am still learning to know that our Lord is bigger than anything that tries to pull me down into depression such as severe hurts from childhood and old memories that are triggered here and there. Did you have a Christian therapist to help you through your past or a regular psychologist?

    Thank you, again, M’Kayla. You are truly a blessing!

    Angela

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    • No one knows for certain what Paul refers to in that verse. But whatever it was was left intentionally by the Lord to grow Paul. If we allow Him, the Lord will grow us right from our circumstances, but we must be willing and many are not, seeking ways to miraculously escape.

      My counselor was not a Christian and I was not walking with the Lord at that time. I was quite angry at Christians and believed God hated me because of the things I went through as a child, as a Christian, but without wisdom. Some kids come out ok, some do not, and some fare much worse than I.

      God remains sovereign.

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  68. Angela,
    God first showed me the living Truth of His Word through the Psalms. It was where He first touched my hard heart. I often turn to them for comfort and encouragement.

    The Bible says that Jesus WILL wipe every tear from our eyes, not that He has wiped every tear already. Bible texts that you aren’t likely to hear in a word-of-faith type church:

    “Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.” (James 1:2-4)

    “On the contrary, we speak as men approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please men but God, who tests our hearts.” (1 Thes 2:4)

    “Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in His holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.” (Heb 12:10-11)

    “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.” (Rev 2:10)

    “Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. The believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.” (Luke 8:13)

    “In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith–of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire–may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.” (1 Peter 1:7)

    Consider that 1/3 of the angels fell away to the lies of satan, Adam and Eve disobeyed God on the lies of satan, the nation of Israel was barely out of Egypt before they had made a golden calf to worship in the desert, and today you see a “christian” church that is falling away for the sake of gold dust and feathers and a drunken stupor. You face many trials now, but keep looking ahead to Jesus. He will deliver you from each one.

    And, whatever Paul’s thorn, it was a torment to him. Yet, he welcomed that weakness so that the power of Jesus might be made perfect in him. How unsearchable God is in all His ways, but it ends in glory!

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  69. I beleive that God the Father is supreme and nothing is taken him by supprise. But the word of faith teaches just the oppisite. They beleve that God has to get our permission from us to act When we relize that even Satan has to get pemission to even act here on earth. He does not have free reign here on earth like he would want. So Paul had a thorn in the flesh. This thorn was a messanger from satan. Paul asked God Thrice to remove it and and God finally said My grace is sufficent for you. Some times we go through valleys and trials. We love the mountain top expierences but we really find out what we are made of and who god really is. We ask god why did this happen to me or woe is me. In stead count it all joy when we fall into divers temptations because god is building up character. When we get ourself in trouble we say god why did you allow this to happen when all the time we got ourself into it. We must become mature and focus in on Gods word. I belived one time that God gave me a new name like he did Abraham. In the Assembly of God church church we use to sing “There is a new name written down in glory and its mine.” Will I thougt that when I get to heaven I will have my new name.
    You may laugh but I really though that I had a new name. Or how about the time I when to the pastor and told him I have a brain tumor and he said who told you. And I said the devil did. He laughfted but I was serious. But praise god because Im growing in the Lord. Rejoice not for the sircumstances but for god giving you the privlage to see what God will do.

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  70. Makayla I want to deeply thank you for your blog it has meant so much to me for the support I have gotten from you and the comments are so excellent. Since we have left the word of faith church a month and a half ago we have went through a rollercoaster of emotions. I have been so happy for the space you have given me on your blog to post. If at anytime I fail to live up to your expectations in any way I will adjust. I want to thank god for your blog and the true liberty that we have on it because the Holy Spirit at least in my case is healing my heart. Thanks so very much and may God bless you in everything you lay your hands to.

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  71. M’Kayla,

    It has been a few months since I last left a message. Since my last message, our denominations Board of Theology reviewed portions of books on the BSSM reading list. Their response was the teaching is not consistent with our denominations beliefs and is not even Christian in many instances. Our Pastor and the people attending the class, of course did not agree with the Boards assessment. The next evening at a full church council meeting, the four of us that were questioning the teaching were viciously attacked by the man and his wife that brought the teaching into our church. The Pastor and his wife just sat there without saying a word. They knew in advance that we were going to be attacked.

    The man that attacked us, had been a very good friend for the better part of a decade. I let him know that he changed the rules in how we would present this to the whole congregation.

    Is it wrong of us to inform the congregation and make them aware of the false BSSM teaching knowing it may cause a church split? Many of you reading this probably have experienced this for yourselves. Please let me now how it turned out in your situation.

    In Him I Put My Trust,
    Tom

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    • Wow Tom. No, it is not wrong to warn about false teachers. Scripture teaches us to do just that, to warn and to get out of it. No one that I gave warning to took me seriously. Even some of the people who came in with me who were aware of the false teaching continued to attend the church. We have to be able to make a stand regardless of the outcome and in how others view us. I have learned more about the Lord and His word being out of the church. You did the right thing.

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  72. Makayla you are so right in what you just said. We must stand up for what is right and true. Let me give you a short picture that is in the word of God that Hagen and Co will never give you. It is found in Act 16: 22.. And the multitude rose up together against them: and the magistrates rent off their clothes and commanded to beat them, And when they had laid many stripes upon them, they cast them into prison,charging the jailor to keep them safely: Who, having recived such a charge, thrust them into inner prison and made ther feet fast in the stocks. And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them, and Sudenly and Sudenly and sudenly. The wof preacher will never read this scripture to you unless it is out of context because to them this is to much against their feel good messages. How could any one be in a situation like this much less praise god after being stripped naked and beaten. Lets look at where they were. They were in the inner prison. Its the last place a wof preacher would find himself in. This is the place where in comentaries it is where all the sewage and human debree wind up. This was a place where the most harden criminals would find themselves in and paul was just preaching the word. The mob hated him so much that just beating him wasnt good enough. I wonder if the prisoners around them heard the praise and worship god. Their feet was in stocks. Their feet was sore and they hadnt eaten a desent meal all day. At midnight the Spirit of God moved on them and they prayed and sang praises to God. And Suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken:and immediately all the doors were opened, and every ones bands were loosed. When God moves and things happen Faith is not a crative force but it is placeing your trust in a supreme being and watching God move.
    The power of God was manifested through their praise and worship. This is old time religion at its best. The word of God must get out and it cant be contained. My hat is off to Makayla.

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  73. I walked the earth 2000 years ago after I left my father. My father gave me the best parents a kid could ever have . I grew up in nazerath and became a carpender. When I was 12 I was in the temple teaching the scribes and pharasees When I it was time I left home. I was baptized by my cousin John. I performed many miracles and went about doing good. But my country man wouldnt accept me.They brought me before pilate. He could find nothing I did to deserve death but the crowd did. Take him away they said and crusified him. They stripped me naked and took my robe off and scourged me. They scourged me untill I didnt even look like I was a human.They Put a crown of thorns on my head and pressed them in my scull.. When I was carrying the cross up the velidarosa I fell down because it was so heavy. This nice gentleman was ordered to carry it for me. When I got to a hill called Golgatha they tied ropes on me to hold me still and then punded nails in the palm of my hands and my feet. Then the soldiers put the cross up and put a sign the read king of the jews. As I looked around I saw my mother I so much love and told John to take care of her.I shed my blood for you so you could spend eternity with me and oh I want you to meet my father when I see you. Who am I. My Name Is Jesus.

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  74. Hi,

    I recently came out of Bethel. I have a lot of problems, but mostly with their sexuality. I don’t agree with (my Bible says a pastor should be a one-woman man…) So, if some of the pastors are married and some of them also have another woman on the side – I haves a problem with that.

    What do you recommend that I do? My roommate (that will be here for at least one month) attends Bethel. I live in Redding, CA still.

    How wise would it be to move from Redding? My job commitment is only 2 months longer.

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    • jupeter24, I responded to your comment on the other thread. This is something that you need to take to the Lord for the next step. I can’t tell you what you should do, I can’t even figure out what I should do – lol! 🙂

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  75. Hi M’Kayla,
    I wanted to give an update of what has been happening in our church since I last posted. It was apparent that the current church council was not going to ask the BSSM school to stop using the church facilities. The leadership did not feel that there was much division being caused by the classes.
    About a month ago, between church services, the pastor gave an overview of the school and what they were doing. He told the congregation that Bill Johnson was a very nice and kind man and great things were happening at Bethel. He said the theology presented in the curriculum was very middle of the road; he played a couple of clips of one of the teachers in the DVD series discussing the divinity of Christ. The pastor continued until it was time for him to start the second service so there was not time for questions. There was quite a large group that listened to the explanation and I knew that this would be the only time that this large of group would be gathered prior to our church’s annual meeting the following Sunday. I stood up and told the group that I was the one that initially brought forward concerns on Bill Johnson’s teaching. I mentioned I had talked to 15 different pastors of varying denominations and they all said the teaching was faulty. I mentioned our own denomination’s Board of Theology found parts of the curriculum that was brought forward for review to be at odds with Christian teaching. The pastor asked if any of these pastors had healing ministries and experienced healing. Each pastor had told me that they believe God still heals today. A couple of other people from the congregation then voiced their concerns about the teaching and the division within the church. Two men in leadership of the BSSM school got up and were defensive at which time the council president closed the meeting. God used the words of those two men to give the congregation a wake-up call. If those two men had not spoken, and they only spoke for maybe a minute total, I do not believe things would have turned out as they did the next week at the annual meeting.
    It became obvious that the only chance to remove the BSSM school from our church was to gain control of the church council. At the annual meeting, people were nominated from the floor to challenge incumbents on the various boards. This was unprecedented and I only expected a couple of people nominated off the floor to actually gain a position on the council. When the votes were tallied, all of the people nominated off the floor won the election. We were installed as board members at the annual meeting as the next church council meeting was the following Tuesday.
    There was quite a bit of commotion following the meeting and the next day. There were people that did not understand what had happened and why it happened. Some people thought it was too calculating and political.
    The next evening at our council meeting, the pastor resigned his position stating he would preach at the next two services coming up in the coming week. A number of church council members and Sunday school teachers , some of which were students of the BSSM school, also sent in their resignations to be read that evening. The next few months will give us a clear picture on how many people have left.
    Right now, as a church we are standing strong and people are stepping forward to help where they are needed. We have pastors helping us out until we find an interim pastor.
    Please pray for the people that left our church either to follow the pastor or because of hurt feelings. Pray they find a church that will preach the truth. Once again, thanks for listening.

    In HIM ,

    Tom

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    • Tom, thank you so much for sharing. WHAT A STORY! I am so very THANKFUL that The Lord revealed the truth!!! Yes, I can see where this has been and will continue to be hard, but what a blessing!. I found myself sitting here thinking I wish I was there in the middle of all of it. It is a great change for all of you. God is faithful. Hang on tight…we have no idea how many may have been saved from the corruption of Bethel…entire families!!! WOO-HOO just rejoicing right here!

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  76. Jupeter24 — I would like very much to meet with you. I also came out of Bethel and live in Redding. How can we meet each other? Could M’Kayla send to you my email address privately? I very much am in need of true Christian “fellowship”. Thanks!

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  77. Hello. I too came out of this demonic stronghold and like you started researching them heavily. I knew there was something wrong with their teaching but couldn’t quite put my finger on it but on some more than others I would get a real creepy feeling almost like they were hypnotic or something but The Holy Sprit not their spirits kept nudging me and showing me different things about them so I didn’t get too far but THEN I started researching them back in 2000 and I couldn’t believe what I found out and then just recently spoke to someone who had seen behind he scenes and I truly believe this person is very credible but can’t mention the name here and you think you had heard it all and then—well you can only imagine or maybe not?!? These people are sick and I believe some are demon possessed. Some are satanic infiltrators for real and they have been feeding this new age occultic teaching twisted with scripture and are very very subtle with their slick con artist teaching that is purposely designed to draw the person back into superstition and bondage! It is very sad that people are still getting sucked in by these pulpit pimps! Is is shameful to Christ and He is very unhappy about the whole ordeal but they are about to take a fall I believe and people are waking up and gonna be drawn out of all false doctrine! Thank you for being brave. I look forward to hearing from you.

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    • Doug, yes I do agree with you that some have been set up into place to destroy us. But Christ is the head of all principality and power! We were warned in the bible of the great falling away and it is more than upon us. The Lord does bring people out of it, but then HE IS MIGHTY TO SAVE!

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  78. Jeremiah 2:13
    “For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters, And hewn themselves cisterns—broken cisterns that can hold no water.

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  79. Hi M’Kayla,
    I wanted to give an update on how our church has been faring since our ex- pastor resigned his position and moved the BSSM school out of our church. There has been a bit of “figuring it out as you go” taking place since he resigned with very little notice. Our denomination has been very helpful with providing Pastors to preach during the services coming up to Easter. The congregation has been excited to hear the Gospel actually being preached instead of stories and skits. People did not realize how far we had slipped away from the narrow path.

    I had some really mixed feelings during the week following his resignation. I knew what happened was right, but our ex-pastor had 22 years of history with the church. The week after he gave his last sermon, a visiting Pastor came and preached at our church regarding false teaching and had a Q&A session in lieu of our usual adult Bible Study so people could ask questions regarding Bethel’s teaching. Before the class, I spoke with the Pastor about the way I was feeling and he told me something that clarified the situation for me immediately. He said to read John 10. He told me our ex-pastor had at some point in time gone from being a shepherd to becoming a hired man. The hired man runs at the sight of trouble and leaves the sheep behind. The shepherd gives up his life for the sheep. Our ex-pastor first left us when he started down the path of chasing signs and wonders and ultimately ran away when he came to understand, through the change in our council, the BSSM school would have to go. He left us to fend for ourselves, but we found out who our true shepherd is-Jesus Christ.

    The ex-pastor and the leadership of the BSSM school along with another 25 or so members of our congregation have found a rental facility in a town 5 miles away. They have started a church and are starting to hold services. Again, this shows he was only a hired man in relation to our congregation, he is trying to lure people to follow him.

    I write this and will update you in the future in order to give others hope if they are facing false teaching entering their church. Justin Peters told me that if the leadership is involved in the false teaching, it is almost impossible to get it out of the church; but, Justin then said…with God, nothing is impossible.

    In Christ,
    Tom

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    • Tom, I am so happy for the way things are turning out and again, I want to express my appreciation with your honesty and being so willing to share. People are greatly encouraged. Great scripture reference of John 10. We get so hung up that they use the name of Jesus and so many other bible truths, yet the teaching is haywire – it is confusing! But in light of scripture it all comes together. Praise God that He does not forsake His own. I agree with Justin, nothing will be impossible for those who believe!

      Be well, be blessed! 🙂

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  80. Hi M’Kayla,
    I feel like I could cry, explode, run or possible hide after reading much of your blog today. Long story short…(well, I’ll try at least) Raised Catholic, changed to a denomination as an adult (felt grace for the first time ever), moved, needed more, found total weirdness out there and felt creepy about it. Have been searching, found more weirdness. Read the books, have the t-shirts. Much of it helped, but you realize at some point, something is NOT right. Then you realize that the people that you most trust are all involved in something that doesn’t seem right either. (And these are my spiritual mentors-and the best friends I’ve ever had) Good people with wrong ideas I suppose. Where are the people and where is the church that will not lead you down the wrong path? I know that the Holy Spirit is my guide and that He will teach me all things that I need to know…but I guess I’m a little slow here…I need help in the flesh too…God tells us to be in fellowship with other like minded people…where are they? ;o) and most of all, I don’t want to drag my adopted children into weirdness. I want them to be totally free in Christ to live the life that God has prepared for them. I want that for myself and my husband. I feel the prompting to rid my home of books and cd’s I have, like a total cleansing and a new beginning. Letting the Lord teach me instead of depending on the opinions of others and “their” take on life and the Word! That is enough to start! ;o) Thanks for your blog, I will visit often!
    Blessings,
    A Work in Progress

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    • Tj, that is how I felt too! The Lord will lead to you the right people, and them to you. First learn to lean on the Lord…we think we understand how that is done, we think we do it…but we simply do not. Many Christians I know are in this place. There have been great upheavals in our lives and circumstances, great losses and we count it as gain because through it all Christ is leading us and teaching us His way. Things will get much worse than they are now so we take this time to prepare.

      The Lord be with you! Comment anytime! xoxo

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  81. Tj,
    Our family began “homechurching” about two years ago, for the very reason of protecting our children from all the bad things we were seeing in and around the physical churches we tried (and for the bullying that they received in one church). We gather in the Word and in faith; and where two or more our gathered, there Jesus Christ is among them. The important part for us has been to listen and read and talk about the Holy Scriptures. That is a daily walk…our daily bread.

    As you stated, you have the Holy Spirit of God to lead you through this. He will not fail you ever.

    I think there are people who are still managing to find solid Bible-teaching churches to fellowship with others, and I long for that myself. But the grace of Jesus Christ is sufficient for us, as He is for you and yours. God bless you!

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  82. Hi Tj. One thing to remember, is that you are not alone. In this we are united in Christ Jesus. It is a daily wrestling match that we are in, striving for the truth that is only found by continuing in the Words of Jesus. He is our refuge and our strength. He has given us the Holy Spirit as comforter and to lead us and guide us until Jesus returns for us. Be of good cheer. Praise God.
    Luke 21:28
    “And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.”

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  83. Thanks M’Kayla…just so I understand how your blog works…This is a place to share and help one another correct? I won’t bare my soul, but I have some serious questions, and I have been asking God for someone who will share the truth. I don’t want a Rah-Rah session, I want the truth. And although I know no one knows everything, just wanted to make sure I understand why I (we) are here? :o)
    With that said…When I was reading yesterday, one thing that stuck with me was about our sin. We sin, and seek help, but don’t want to change our ways…we seek people for answers and not God. I think God gives us the answers, but we seek people because we want sympathy, understanding, etc. God gives all those things to us and more…I actually know which friends will soothe the part of me that is hurting…because we all have different personalities…isn’t that silly? I believe that friends (especially girl friends) are a gift from God…but I especially value the ones that will listen and love me in spite of my warts, yet ALWAYS send me back to Jesus with my questions. Now…when those same people are doing what they think is the Lord’s work, but you have questions about it…WOF, Heidi Baker, IHOP, inner-healing, therapy…(different people doing different things)…how to you not throw the baby out with the bath water? I know the Lord has taken me away from all these people. (Physically) and I have had glimpses that I was supposed to move on. Love them, but move on, and I have refused to do so in my heart. They are not bad, they are lovely warm accepting people that have loved me through a lot of my adult life and journey. I can’t imagine the things I have done and said to lead people in the wrong direction. I always pray that when I speak, if it is not of the Lord, it be blown away in the wind. I guess continuing on your journey, and pressing into God for the answers is always best. It is not that I sought to be “wrong”, but I have always said, “You don’t know what you don’t know”…but I want to know the truth, I want to be free, totally free. We are even separated from family too…we have been on this island for almost 8+ years now. I can’t help but think God is preparing me to go somewhere where I can and should ONLY depend on him? I have had enough lessons! ;o) Thanks and God Bless, tj

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    • Tj, I understand your thinking in that people we have known are warm, loving, kindhearted. Well, so are unbelievers. There are many do-gooders in the world that seem to be loving and kind, and are in the way of humanness. However, a person who comes in the name of the Lord in love, concern, kindness and yet has nothing else in Him other than His name are worse than the unsaved. Having these kinds of characteristics without Christ adds nothing!

      The phrase “throw the baby out with the bathwater” like “eat the meat, spit out the bones” are set in place to further trip people up. Show me a scripture like-minded with these…you will not find one. There is no lukewarmity, no middle ground with God. It is either hot or cold. This is what I say – if the baby is found to be demon possessed it is tossed out. AND our Father in heaven would never feed His children bones. What father would? The sayings sound good to the human mind, but when applied scripturally, they do not hold up.

      The Lord has taken you out of the grip of the enemy. You must honor Him, be thankful to Him and LEAVE.

      One more thing I would like to add. We do need each other. We need bible believing, teaching, spirit filled people in our lives. Why? Not for a pity party. We weep with those who weep – we rejoice with those who rejoice – and in all things there is a time for everything and all of us will experience much. True prophecy in the sense of the NT is to admonish, it is to build up, it is to encourage each other. We all operate in the gifts of the Spirit, and where 2 or more are gathered, there He is with us!

      There is a balance between seeking out friends and seeking the Lord. We should walk together if we agree, but always seeking the Father for direction, for answers, but also seeking Him alone and with each other for each other.

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  84. One more thing! ;o) What about the numerous people on TV? I know what I think about most of them and have done my own research. JMeyer is the one I wonder about. I don’t listen or watch her anymore but I cut my teeth on her, and much of her stuff helped me…I would say, just to lead a better life. Before I trash all her books and cd’s I was wondering what you thought? Thanks

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    • TV preachers are of the world. Joyce Meyer is a wolf, her teaching is based on Word of Faith/prosperity and self help. She sounds good on TV, but she is only on for a few minutes. This is the TRAP! Joyce has made herself quite wealthy “preaching the gospel”. Have you seen her property? It is a compound of multiple houses – mansions, really, and a temp controlled garage to park her fleet of cars.

      http://apostasywatch.com.previewyoursite.com/teaching5/page8.html

      You can google any TV preachers’ name and come up with information. I ask, if Christ stated He had no place to lay His head, if He was buried in a borrowed tomb, if the disciples were sent out with nothing, were persecuted, hid out, imprisoned, beaten, stoned and killed, how is it these TV preachers think they deserve better?

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  85. I was not sure where to put this, but it needs to be said:
    M’Kayla, please put this where it belongs; I think it is in the wrong place.

    About a year ago I was attending a Sunday evening “service” at Bethel. The “preacher” that evening was Kris Vallotton. He is openly considered to be Bethel’s chief “prophet”, and is the top person in charge of Bethel’s school. When there is any teaching on how to prophesy, or to become a prophet, he is generally the chief teacher.
    That evening’s “sermon” was openly considered to be a long prophecy.
    In it, he was saying many direct predictive prophecies, such as that China would become the world’s chief benevolent country when other countries had disasters. During his speaking, he had a snicker on his face. He said that all these things would happen within a year of then (spoken last spring), and if they did not, he would “apologize” {snicker}.

    I, and my friend who cares for me, keeping me alive, were both incensed. How dare he call that prophecy! I felt very sorry for him, in that I would not want to be in his shoes on Judgement Day!

    True prophecy is speaking the words of God, and therefore is to be regarded as holy, and not to be tampered with nor taken frivolously, although not on a par with Scripture.

    (My personal opinion): I regard Bethel as teaching people how to be false prophets as fast as they can.

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    • TenderHearted, you are correct. I can find no excuse for their continued behavior and blatant disregard for the word of God, except that their moves are deliberate. We continue to warn and pray!

      Be well. thanks for the comment!

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  86. Thanks for the input everyone. I have had a super, healing week. I pitched a giant bag of cd’s and books straight in the trash. I’m going to research the ones I’m not sure about, but know God will help me sift through to the truth. I was wondering a few things. 1. As I’m sitting here thinking about everyone (in my past) that I know is into something I don’t believe is from God. Inner Healing (with visualization), Bethel, WOF, Sozo’s, physcology, IHOP, “experiences- gold dust, lots of healings, raising cows from the dead, etc.”, Prophesy ministries (where the pastor prays over others for hours with a “word” for them.) The WORD is supposed to make you closer to Christ. To know Him and be known by Him…and I’m scratching my head here. No wonder I’ve been so confused for so long. I feel like the Lord has protected me not only from myself, but from the destructive ideas of others. Wowsa!!! 2. Are there ANY Bible schools that regular Christians can go for teaching? I would love to go somewhere and soak for a while and get some solid teacing. There are a bunch out there, and everyone that I have seen thus far has been hurt by them in some way. I would be interested in a discussion about schools (Not theological with a degree type) but short term mission-ministry type? It is SO hard to figure out where to even start to find someone you trust to seek information from. 3. Are there other “watchdog” sites that are good, or that need to stay clear from? I homeschool 3 of our adopted children and I have limited time! Because I’m so leery now, I researched discernment blogs and the like and EVEN that was scary. The Word, The Word, The Word. 4. Since I feel like I’m starting over correctly this time, I don’t want to fall under false teaching again. is there anyone that you CAN recommend to read and study under? (besides the Holy Spirit of course?) Thanks so much, thank you for listening and your prayers.
    Blessings,
    tjmc

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    • 11blessings. You are missing the point in coming out of deception and false teachers. Sit with your bible alone and ask the Lord to teach you. Stop depending on people to do what God can. I have done this, as have many of my readers. You will be amazed at how the word opens up and feeds your spirit. We must get past the point in needing people to do what the Holy Spirit can! I am not saying never listen, never read, but take the time to understand and learn on your own for a time. This is the only way you will be able to spot false teachings by yourself. It is very important, especially for the time we live in. Most every organization have been overrun with false teachings, charismania, emergent, etc. For me the very thought of trying to find one is too exhausting to bother with!

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  87. 11blessings, thanks for sharing your story and for your questions.

    If I may, I’d like to recommend a book called Christian History Made Easy (CHME). The reason I am suggesting this book to you is because I think you will find it very helpful in giving you a start to understanding the Bible and figuring out how God has been able to preserve the truth of His’ Word throughout more than 2,000 years of human history.

    Having been to Bible College myself, let me just say that depending on the personal beliefs of the person that started the college, you are likely to find a wide range of different Bible teaching. If, for example, you went to a Pentecostal based college, you might be taught that physical healing through prayer is applicable in today’s world. If you went to an ultra-conservative school, you may be taught that physical healing through prayer is not applicable in today’s world.

    What I loved about the CHME book is that all comments from the author on moments in history are taken directly from the Bible. So when addressing heretical teaching, for example, the author will use scripture to show why the heretical teaching was strongly opposed by the early Church and how it is in conflict with the Bible.

    This book will encourage any true believer to read their Bible and to try and understand what it is saying and how it applies to their lives today. I have personally found it very helpful as a resource in examining what is being taught from the pulpits of today’s Churches.

    I hope you find this helpful and I’d like to encourage you to continue to ask questions and seek those answers in God’s Word (Acts 17:11). I think we are often in danger of being deceived when we stop asking questions and we stop going to God’s Word for the truth. God is not immune to your situation, nor will He leave you hanging.

    In Christ.

    Shawn

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  88. Thank you Shawn, I appreciate your suggestion. The main thing I’m learning is to learn from the Holy Spirit and not lean on my own understanding. I know that God works ALL things out for good…and I hope that through this journey (like our adoptions) I learn and can encourage others along the way. We are here for each other to “speak the truth in love” and that is important. But we also need to be Berean’s and take everything back to the Word of God. I’m learning to do just that and thank God for his limitless patience with me. Thanks again, Blessings,

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  89. Shawn, just a side note…I home school our children and am always looking for good books to supplement our history. I ordered some from Rose Publishing last week. Yesterday when I received your suggestion on CHME I was going to look it up, but didn’t have the time. When I returned home I had a box from Rose and guess what book was in there? CHME. I forgot that I had ordered it along with some other resources. God is so good that way! I call them “God winks”. It goes along with the History we have been studying and I look forward to reading more. Thanks again, Blessings

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  90. Hey TJ,

    That’s a cool story and I’m thrilled it worked out for you. The book is a very good and easy read. I love that it challenged me to put my brain into gear and to think about what I believe and why.

    This past Sunday, pastor Jack Hayford spoke at our Church. He said something that I immediately caught. “Jesus absorbed our sin while on the cross.” It immediately struck a note with me because it sounded almost like the “Jesus became sin for us” position that I have seen before. It forced me to ask the question, “what do I really believe?” That Jesus became sin or that he was a sin offering?”

    By applying critical thought and looking into the Greek, I was able to get my answer (thanks primarly to my wife deciding to research it as well, she found some great articles which helped! What a great helpmate).

    The CHME book has been such an encouragement to me to really study the Word of God and to apply critical thought to what I’m reading/hearing. In the past, I would have simply accepted pastor Jack’s opinion as 100% correct because of his standing in the body of believers. Yet how lazy I was! I did not follow Acts 17:11. Had i done so, I would have saved myself a lot of heartache and delusion.

    Blessings to you!

    Shawn

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  91. Hi M’Kayla…couple of fragmented things going on today, hopefully I can work through them as I write. As always, open to scripture and light on the subject.
    1. Got a call from an old friend and she proceeds to tell me about her life, working in Southeast Asia, orphanages, etc. All the things a believer wants to hear. Kids helped, people saved, ministry and God’s Word going forward…etc. Then as the conversation goes forward, I hear the words, “sozo” Bill Johnson, Iris Ministries, Bethel, deliverance, etc. etc. Can you NOT get away from all of this? I still don’t know enough to refute what they say, but I do know enough that God has called me into His Word and His Ways…and not to listen much less follow a man or woman…regardless of how “spiritual” them seem. Are you naturally on edge, when you hear these things? Everything she said was awesome…is all of that from the devil? because of who they are associated with? Sometimes I am so confused.
    2. Case and point, have another friend, seemingly the most Godly person I know, that has sold all they own, went to Andy Womack’s Bible School in Denver…daughter gone all over the world with Iris MInistries, to have Andy basically go back on his word with my friend and basically they are destitute …and I’m sitting here wondering…what destruction these people leave in their wakes…The thought, “seeking experiences versus God”…keeps coming back into my head…and I feel SO bad for my friend…and I want to say something, but I’m not sure what to say. It has been nagging at my heart for months. I have read a few good books “Christianity in Crisis” and got a new one called, “Wandering Stars”…that speak to the craziness going on. How do you get through this??? How do you approach people? I’m okay with them not talking to me if that was to happen…I have family members that haven’t talked to me in years…for the reason, I know not…but the craziness is so strange to me?
    3. I’m actually going to Southeast Asia next week for two weeks and would like prayer for that…I feel God is going to open my eyes to many of the questions I have been having.
    4. My adopted daughter is as wayward as they come. She contacted me this week, but unfortunately I have a difficult time trusting her based on our past. It’s not that I don’t love her, but I am weary of trying to help her and not understanding what kind of relationship I need to have…(love her where she is at)…in all the muck…or let her go and let God work it out…

    I know this is a lot, but gosh, when it rains it pours. The Lord gave me Jer 33:3 during and since our adoptions the last 10 years…and I’m believing that He will help me in due time…and for me to not get weary. Especially for the other kids that I still have at home.
    Blessings to all, thanks for getting this far. tjmc

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  92. Tj,

    You aren’t alone in trying to work through all of this. I can share with you that all of those testimonies are often not what they seem. The only “healing” that I know of that came out of the WoF church I attended resulted in the woman dying suddenly several years later. She had been controlling her lifelong disease successfully with medications, until she was “healed”. Now she is dead. You will never hear that part of the testimony!

    I have seen far too many people with a microphone stuck in their face in front of a crowd being urged on by a pastor. What are they going to say? “I don’t have enough faith” or “it isn’t working for me”. No, of course not. They go along with the show.

    I believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, including healing; but I have only ever witnessed them in quiet and small places where the glory was to none but God.

    Just keep holding it all up against the Word of God. Jesus Christ who is the Word of God made flesh will never leave you. His Word promises that!

    Praying for you….

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  93. A verse I have found helpful: Habakkuk 2:4 the WHOLE verse:
    Behold the proud, his soul is not upright with him,
    BUT the just shall live by his faith.
    [my own emphasis on the word but].

    this verse shows me when i see the contrast, that people who are proud will have trouble with having faith. therefore the preachers who are obviously proud, and tfrying to have some kind of healing ministry, are probably not able because of their pride, to have sufficient faith so as to actually work the miracles they are claiming.

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  94. This may sound off-topic, and if so, I apologize, and M’Kayla, you can omit it..
    I have found a spiritual principle many of you probably know, but it really hit me today again:
    Each decision each day toward God makes the next decision toward Him that much easier; contrariwise, each decision made toward the world (like watching TV instead of privately worshipping) makes it harder to decide for God the next time and makes it easier to make a decision toward the world net time. The accumulation of small decisions very slowly and imperceptibly determines our eternities.
    If/When you finally get to heaven, this world will seem so insignificant, just as for many of us today heaven seems so far away and insignificant. Amazing! I prefer the eternal view!
    A verse I love on this is the one probably very familiar to many here, is II Thess. 2: 10-12.
    “And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish, because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusiuon, that they should believe [greek “the”] lie; that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had plesasure in unrighteousness.”
    So at each step, we, I, must love the truth and believe the truth, and not take pleaasure in unrighteousness [at all]. Otherwise as the big lie comes, and I think it is already here, when we take pleasure in the things of the world, and do not [intensely] love the truth, eventually we will be damned. This is one reason why so many today who think they are Christians have already been fatally deceived.
    And it becomes a matter also of whether we each will tremble at God’s Word, taking it very seriously, as in Isaiah 66:2&5. And the correct translation (in this case, the old KJV) of Is 66:5 shows us that if we take God’s work very seriously, tremblinbg at it, we may expect to get thrown out of the (organized) church.

    One more point: I, along with Tozer, do not believe all Christians will be part of the Bride. A way to differentiate is in Rev. 19:7: “The Bride hath made herself ready.” Those who think they are Christians, but do not make themselves ready are not truly part of the Bride, even if they do get to heaven. They are daughters of Jerusalen (S of S), but not the bride. They are her companions (Ps 45:14). Do not expect the heavenly Bridegroom to come for a bride those who are filthy and never bothered to purify themselves (I John 3:3). Parallel is I John 2:3-6; 15-17.

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  95. Hi mkayla, I’m quite worried about some friends of mine and one in particular who is more into bethel than everyone else. She exhibits some jerking symptoms which is meant to be ‘God’ and makes the typical ‘ho’ noise while she does it. It looks like kundalini?
    All this time I thought it was just a personality quirk but now I’m worried she seems such a sincere and on-fire christian but now after some online reading and investigation I think she is either deceived or becoming deceived…

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  96. You are correct. Your friend is in danger, and is probably deeply infected with a “spiritual germ”, or a whole colony of them. You may want to ask her where in Scripture did Jesus or an apostle exhibit this kind of behaviour. Just because respected people such as Heidi Baker do it is no excuse. God bless you!

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    • People such as Heidi Baker are respected for all the wrong reasons. What about Christ, huh? What about the word of God? They have thrown Him out and are following other gods and their sheep do the same.

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  97. How can you help people escape deception if the resounding cry is that you are being judgemental/pharisaical or unloving? Any criticism is seen as negative and unity is more important than truth apparently…I guess after warning people in the ‘new prophetic movement’ all we can do is pray…

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  98. The jerking thing…. Our church secretary came back from Brownsville many years ago with the incessant involuntary bowing whenever there was an anointed worship service, or ‘the spirit’ was moving.

    Makes me wonder what ‘spirit ‘was moving back then, if you catch my drift.

    MacArthur says the kundalini involves the spine, with involuntary bowing and head movements…

    Thank God I never received anything from Brownsville!

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  99. I know someone who is a nice enough kind o’ guy but he really brags about his spiritual experiences; he has seen heaven and hell can see the father whenever he wants to, ‘soaks’ to loud noisy secular music and can leave his body if he really wants to and travel. BUT he insists it isn’t astral travelling oh no that is different and unsuprisingly he listens to bethel teaching and buys bethel books. I actually believe him but paradoxically he supports biblical concepts and sounds like a christian except for his wacky experiences…there is ‘no grid for his experiences’ he can’t really find what he does in the bible but doesn’t seem too worried about that.very worrying but he is one of the worst in the wacky group….its disturbing what is going on in christendom but then I look at my own life and see my own inconsistencies and hypocrisy but I don’t believe I’m deceived like that!!

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    • None of us believe we are being deceived. That’s the deception. Try telling someone in the midst of their psychosis that they are mentally ill. They will never get it….and neither do we. That is the flesh world we live in and that is why we need Jesus. But love that person to Life and everything changes, even if they never come out of their psychosis.

      I respect this blog site, but after reading so many posts I often wonder if this hasn’t just become an alternative form of superior religion. ‘We have it right because we have the Word of God’……..but isn’t that what every single other believer/church….just like Your friend says. It’s not entirely about whether anyone has the ‘Word of God’, as many people have been slain by those who operated out of the Bible. It’s always about relationship with Jesus Christ…..the true Word of God……not head knowledge of scripture alone. ‘Scripture alone’ is just the opposite ‘false teaching’ of ‘Spiritual only’.

      In the original statements by M’kayla (whom I truly appreciate for her courage and testimony) she stated that the false teachings were built on truths that were completely biblical, but then it’s what ‘came after’ that was the problem. But now, if there is any similarity to their teachings of God’s Love, or people healing in Jesus’ name it defaults as ‘false teachings’ because of those that are proclaimed here as ‘false teachers.’ I sincerely appreciate all that I have read on this site, but there does appear to be some tails wagging the dog rather than other way around…..or babies through out with the bath water.

      One of M’kayla’s great strengths is that she refers people to go to scripture and see what it says there also. Only Jesus’ truth can separate the lie and pierce to our very soul. In the meantime we have Jesus’ commandments to keep. That has become my default for everyone’s teaching and advice. May God richly bless and be with You all.

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      • Ed, I don’t think I have it all right. I do understand that the things I was once involved with, which I based this blog on, and continue to provide information about from time to time are the opposite of biblical teachings. We are speaking here of the healing movement, the prophetic movement, dreams and visions/interpretation, the role of a seer…etc.

        I have a list of things I struggle with understanding still. I think most of us could say the same if we are honest. But the things that God has revealed to me, thru simple bible research, study and prayer, and the leading and revelation thru the promised work of the Holy Spirit, are as clear to me as can be. These are things anyone can understand in the same way.

        As for the repeated cliche’ “the baby thrown out with the bath water”…I have my own. I found the baby to be a demon and threw it out. A little tongue and cheek there. Seriously, if something specific offends you here you may want to point it out a bit more clearly to me so that it can be addressed.

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        • I hear You M’kayla and thank You for taking the time to read and post my statement. I appreciate it very much. Let me just say it this way. The baby demon You threw out isn’t the healing, the prophecy, the seeing in the Spirit, the dreaming, the visions or the interpretations. The baby demon You threw out was selfishness and Your selfish desire to do selfish works that imitated God’s works.

          Two people will prophecy, heal, see in the Spirit, dream dreams, have visions and/or interpret them and heal many people; one will be with God and please God because they believe on the name of Jesus Christ and do the Glory works of God that were created for them from the foundation of the world, while the other will also do similar great works but they weren’t the works created for them. The second person did the desires of their own heart not the desires of God’s heart. The first person does what Jesus and Paul called us to do, while the second was warned of by Jesus Himself, for they never knew Him.

          It’s not the work that keeps a person separated from God any more than it can get a person into the presence of God. It’s the motive of one’s own heart. God is with the humble and contrite of heart, yet He resists the proud. Since we cannot see a person’s true heart, like God can, which is why we are called not to judge, but only God judges (not that You or I are judging) we are called to repentance so that we may turn to God in every moment with a humble heart, that He would judge us through His Holiness and then His Spirit will guide us into whatever works He has called us and set us free to do.

          Oh goodness, another cliche’……….we cannot judge a book by it’s cover. It’s what is on the inside that counts, not the works on the outside. So the warning to people isn’t to distrust and rebuke everyone who heals or sees or dreams in Jesus’ name (even Jesus warns against this in Mark.) Jesus calls us to repent, to be humble before Almighty God and to keep the commandments that Jesus set before us: To love God with all that we have an are, To love one another as ourself & To love each other as Christ so loved us. This is the determining factor. John said that Moses brought the law, but Jesus brought Grace and Truth, yet the world did not recognize Him. Because there is not Grace or Truth outside of Christ, so inside Christ we can see others in Christ, as there is Grace and Truth. One person heals in the name of Jesus by the ‘dunamis’ power of God preaching the True Gospel, while another heals using the name of Jesus but God says ‘their lips are far from Me.’ One is wheat and one is a tare. You were a tare and now You are growing into wheat. Should the tares be pulled out…..no, not yet. This the angels will do, we are called to harvest and keep planting seed, while also coming into a harvest ourselves of the fruit of Christ….love, grace and truth.

          I send to You the Love of God our Father and the Peace eternal that is in our Savior Jesus Christ. Much Love to You brave one.

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          • Ed, that is the point of my blog. I don’t believe tares become wheat. I believe tares are the ones that are set in place specifically to deceive and divide God’s people. And yes, they grow together. It is not my place to remove them, nor is it in my power to do so. However, it is my place to warn against them. I’m really not brave. 🙂

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            • The thing about tares and wheat is that they look exactly the same throughout their growth until it’s time to bear fruit. That is my point. A transformation takes place and has taken place. Bless You in Your testimony and Your work 🙂

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  100. Hi M’kayla, I recently came across an interview you did about leaving the Bethel Church and discovered shockingly that we’re both living in the same location, and there is a church I’m involved with here that is associated with Bethel. In fact they recently were the first church to host Todd Bentley since his alleged restoration process. Needless to say I’ve had a few interesting experiences of my own, but I’m still searching for more concrete facts to help make sense of what is false and whether or not I should break fellowship. I don’t want to give out personal info on this site but if you would be so kind as to exchange e-mail with me it would be greatly appreciated. Perhaps my experiences could add to your cause and efforts. Thank You.

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  101. Hi my name is harry phelps and I run a healing room under cal pearce in Sydney Australia. All I can say is that in any group or organization there is the genuine, the fake and the counterfeit. My healing room is all about Jesus. We operate out of a evangelical church of christ. I can honestly say that its been all positive. Jesus is the center of the ministry, have have seen many healings and salvations with people added to local churches. I think there could be bad healings rooms but from what I know they are genuine people wanting to reach the lost through signs and wonders and loving people in our community

    How can we be doing this via demons, if we all worship Jesus, love him and pray for people to be healed in his name.
    I agree that in charismatic circles there is not good stuff, but I think we are doing things correctly.

    Its all about extremes of people but there are good guys in the midst don’t throw out all these ministries.
    Bless you
    Harry Phelps

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    • Harry, I wonder what you thoughts are on a man and ministry which is led by “angelic” visitation, supernatural experiences and doctrine based on the occult rather than on the bible? Are you aware that the healing room ministry is rooted in Word of Faith which is not biblical teaching?

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      • M’Kayla
        I have doing a lot of research on the difference between soul power,chi energy and the electrical energy in the human body and such.
        Watchman Nee wrote a book called the latent power of the soul and think he is close to what I think could be possible in what is happening in a lot of Churches.
        Don’t get me wrong I also believe there are people who operate in a spirit that is not the Holy Spirit.
        that Being said I think Humans alone can emit energy and combine that with demonic influence or not…
        not every energy that is felt is the Holy Spirit or Demonic..

        We all have heard of the saying that we only use 10% of our Brains and things like that and another things is people can carry electrical energy like when you rub your feet on carpet and then shock someone.
        so I think what happens to people that get deceived is they could get a zap from a person which then they can be deceived into thinking that’s God because they did not “sense” a demon from the person and then later a spirit could eventually trick them like a gradual set up.

        by the way I was at a conference in a bible school in Tulsa OK. back around 2000 and peter Wagner was there and he was praying for people at the end of the service and I went up to get prayer and he was praying for some guy and I felt like some electricity from being near him when he prayed for the guy. he looked like he wanted to leave so I did not get prayer…and now I am like wow I dodged that bullet…Thank God for that!

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        • Byron, I felt a lot of that power, that electrical energy. Zapped others, got zapped myself, fell down, knocked people down, with NO effort on my part. It is quite demonic – I am convinced of that and the longer I am out of it, the more convinced and creeped out I get. What was I thinking?? I believe the absolute clincher for me was when I realized all that power, all that zapping was changing no one. And that was when I asked the Lord why that was. Not much longer till I found out. I believe it the same as Kundalini, altho I didn’t at first, but my understanding grew. I also believe it to be the same as reiki that has become so popular, or chi…or or any other name it is known by.

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        • Watchman Nee did not write the book Latent Power of the Soul. Witness Lee wrote it, claiming that Watchman Nee wrote it. There is some truth in that book, but as usual, it is mixed with error. You know the devil’s usual:  99% truth, and when that is accepted, then slip down to 98% true, then 97%, and so on.  This is what has happened in the healing ministries, and also with that which is associated with Bethel.

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          • This is the very reason I am either hesitant to post articles, links, book recommendations and videos until I have reviewed them, or not at all. These days I don’t have the time for that and often I delete the info before posting the comment. We need to be quite careful, don’t we? Thank you!!! and thanks everyone for your diligence. ❤

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  102. Yes this energy known by different names is universal and a necessary part of life. The energy is neutral so it becomes a question of how they are used not a question of if they are to be used. Running from Chi is running from life. Learn to use this energy wisely and with heart

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      • maybe sitting under some one preaching all the time and not having dialog(like in a true house church setting I think can lead to someone being mesmerized into to receiving soul power/ getting in a trance and then thru suggestion the person becomes open to a wrong spirit…and of coarse not allowing or teaching to try/test the spirits.

        Tesla had experiments that showed he could thru his devices pass great amounts of energy thru his body.

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        • I have no doubt there is power. I have felt it, been a part of it. I however, because of a large amount of research and reading have never found a biblical claim that the power of God could be felt, experience or passed from one person to the next. We need to take care in how we view things. The power I experienced, as strong as it was never produced one ounce of healing or transformation in any one. That realization proved to me that power was not of God. If it were, miracles would have happened to many.

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    • No. We believe as Jesus taught, the only way to God the Father is thru Him, the Messiah.
      John 14: Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
      This belief has nothing to do with energy or power. All power belongs to God, El Elyon, the Most High. The way to Him is thru Christ, thru the belief in who He is, and through forgiveness of sins. There is no other way, and any other ideology is not of Him.
      🙂

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  103. We need to be ever vigilant about the internet…. On investigating WordPress I find that Ryan Boren, lead developer, claims to be an Aethiest Vegan and a Transhumanist Libertarian. His picture was a bit creepy too. Godlee4life used WordPress in theie link on the comment on the first page of this website. We must all be alert and aware of what w get involved in.

    Dee

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  104. Testimony: My wife and I began to attend a Bethel Church in northeastern Ohio about four months ago; we became engaged, active, attended every service, including an inculcation into a bunch sort called ‘Firestarters. I was always skeptical to begin with of the imitation revivals, word of faith and signs and wonder’s crusades. Notwithstanding, the fact that we do support/believe in healing, prophecy as founded and guided by the Holy Spirit. (Peter 1; 16-21.) One thing we do not aspire to do is go after individuals or pastors, as the truth be known, Jesus would have us merely to unmask the absence of light as in strongholds, deceitful doctrine(s), instructions, heterodoxy and not so much people who may be caught up in these. Matthew 24; 24; “For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.” Honestly, folks; we are persuaded that this, at this moment in time, is in fact very much the argument, especially where this Apostolic Reformation Movement is concerned. After going to the actual leadership, locating relevant scriptures and asking them to contemplate our conclusions, we were hastily diverted away, rejected, ignored and notwithstanding, treated to a certain extent, with derision, contempt and condescension. This is very sad but only suffices to authenticate our allegations that whenever you push the adversaries controllers (buttons) he invariably shows his (himself) own fruit? The quandary is, whose prophecies are genuine and whose are the spirits of anti-Christ? Press in folks and you may get a riposte, we did?

    Our terminations were as such. If you yearn for ‘hype’ not hope, if you fix on ‘circumvention’ over divine intervention, then do not be thunderstruck if your reawakening/revival leads to a coup or revolution?

    We cursorily discerned that during the ‘Firestarter’ classes, we were subtly indoctrinated with absolutes. And of course, the million-dollar query that tarried in our minds cooperatively was, whose ‘nuggets’ were these, Bills, or the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacobs? Many times when I questioned certain practices I was scolded or steered towards their ideas and plan. Many times when I probed certain applications, or teachings, I was softly rebuked or shepherded with respect to their hypotheses and program, even if it did not line itself up with the Holy Writ. Time and again, I challenged that giving words of forecast/prophecy short of pressing into the Lord, waiting on the Lord, even fasting, was unfailingly met with vehement denunciation. Which lead us to postulate these folks were literally, electing to annex the power of the Holy Spirit and possibly awaited him to slog for them? Again, 2 Peter 1; 19-21: “We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as the Holy Spirit carried them along.” We can see that giving carnal jurisdiction for human beings to choose to speak by their own resolve/will, at any given time they choose, is anathema in light of this scripture. Bethel enlightens that anyone, at any given time can prophecy, heal, with or without waiting on God, or even being instructed, directed, or guided by His Holy Spirit but instead, His sovereignty is also their sovereignty. In 1 Peter 5: 6; Jesus said; “Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time.” In due time through the crucible of the refiners’ fire, we are made whole; we learn his thoughts and ways over ours, and so are practiced in the measure to perform more wholly, as He alone conducts.

    Over time we witnessed a continual controlling, manipulative effort for everyone to align them with Bethel doctrine, over and again above the scriptures. The focus was primarily on signs and wonders to the exclusion of helping the poor, being cognizant of actual physical needs or concerns. The antidote was glorious proclamations given by youth, children, adults or anyone who happened to be in the vicinity of your concern. James 2: 16; “If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? Jesus said in James 1: 27; “Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.”

    Bethel is fundamentally absorbed in outmaneuvering the tangible existence of the poor, the widow in duress, the fatherless and frequently, supersedes these conspicuous obligations instead by fabricating glory cloud adventures, lacquering over and outfitting forged countermeasures to genuine needs. They want to navigate God’s potency rather than channel it pragmatically to reach the calamitous indigence’s of the outcast, homeless and wanting. Their prayers and attestations always point to self, self-aggrandizement, their personalized sensations and needs, their sophistications, glory bumps, luminosities and starry imaginations. Affirming healings throughout the service that never really manifest but yet they constrain that you verbalize counter to the legitimate attainment of your healing. I was prayed over 35-40 times and thank God; I have good healthcare. 2 Timothy 4:3: “For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.”

    This Apostolic Ministry is irrefutably to a great extent, not all; self focused, self-aware, and unless we are disposed to serve one another extraneous to and of our idiosyncratic needs, craves and ambitions, then the pure gospel of love, thy neighbor as thyself is also largely non-existent. To express verbally that God does not work through all men, blesses the crops of the righteous and unrighteous, that everyone who participates in such an organism is not saved, evil or lost? This of course would be half witted to infer such a thing, period, and this is not our wish. Matthew 5:45; “that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous”. What we are emphasizing is this; when you add and or take away from the scriptures, practice disproportionate schismatic guidance’s and prioritize your mandates in an asymmetrical, lopsided fashion, then you are leavening God’s Word, reinstating by altering His original mission statement and so contriving another Christ, who is subservient to your thoughts and ways. Revelation 22:19; “And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.” This is the comportment of a cult, and this is the commissioned testimony of Bethel. I am vetting the systematization, an institution, and adjudging the undertakings of people, not the people themselves. Judgment is reserved for God and God alone. We are permitted to test the spirits and search the edible growth of plants and anyone who says, there is no perfect Church, and you’ll never find one. This is because God is perfect, and we forsake conforming, heed, obey and follow Him, and by implementing our own government, we consequentially fail every single time. 1 John 4: 1; “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.”

    Matthew 6:4; “A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.” Jesus then left them and went away.” Matthew 7;21-23; “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’” These are serious allegation folks and it’s high time we really take a hard look at all the different Christ figureheads and make a decision as spoken in Joshua 24: 15; “. But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”

    The rationale will always be, your judging us, like the Garasene demoniac who cried out; Matthew 8;29; “What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?” Many of us are so weary of our ‘Houses of God’ being consecutively hijacked by hirelings, dishonorable souls pursuing ill fame, self-fulfillment, control and it all spell’s religious origin. 2 Corinthians 5;1; “For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.” We are all high priests under a new and better covenant, and each person is to work out his/her own salvation with fear and trembling, not other’s salvation. A study of the New Testament reveals that all Christians are priests. Peter said, “You also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.” (1 Pet. 2:5). Thus, all Christians are of that holy priesthood and can offer spiritual sacrifices to God. All have the right to go directly to God through Jesus Christ, our High Priest (Heb. 4:14-16).

    Peter continued, “But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light…” (1 Pet. 2:9). Rev. 1:5-6 says, “To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever.” We are to simply love and serve one another, preach his four gospels, come alongside one another and allow God, through the (completed) final act of redemption in and through Jesus Christ, who left us his comforter to guide us? Instead, there is always the blind leading the blind and in the end, they both fall into a pit. Matthew 15;14: “Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.” We are to follow only the Holy Spirit and His directives not men. John 14: 26; “But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.”

    In concluding; the worship at Bethel we also found to be fleshly, carnal and reveal a cryptic itinerary other than worshiping Christ crucified, died, was buried and on the third, day rose again from the dead and sits at the right hand of the Father. John 4:24; “God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.” We witnessed rhapsodic, sugary content employing edicts like ‘wide-eyed and mystified’ that left us frequently feeling uneasy as if we were worshiping power, or the perception of exploiting it, preferably than surrendering instead to worshiping a mighty God. 2 Corinthians 10:5; “Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.” The music, loud and sometimes pontificating, repetitive, lacked the adoration and fetched down imaginations rather than one’s ability to focus on Christ. We also noticed that by and large only the youth were permitted to vanguard worship and there was no answerability or accountability. If someone took the alter that recently came from some depravity or transgression, no problem. In other words, rather than use wisdom, prudence and teach the requirements for deacons, elders, and pastors as summarized in the scriptures, it was a one for all, free for all; anything goes, you’re forgiven, let’s rock? Of course were all forgiven, but whatever happened to the refiners’ fire, studying to show oneself approved like a workman who need not be ashamed, but rightly diving the word of truth? It seemed that mature elders or those who have stood the test of time, had wisdom and things to impart were set aside, became irrelevant, as the juveniles (some orphan spirited) were sanctioned to take jurisdiction over the church. They would empower these with dazzling prophecies that were undeniably sensual, unreasoned, unrestrained and more than sometimes controversial. I would see some adults and older people put out of the way and untrained youth taking over all. Sometimes the seniors were asked to fetch for the youth, literally. Requirements for deacons and elders: 1 Timothy Chapter 3; Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full[a] respect.5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.8 In the same way, deacons[b] are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.11 In the same way, the women[c] are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.
    12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.

    When a young individual came from Redding authoring something called ‘The Jesus Games’, this was our cue to leave this organization. This individual fired away prophecies that were so horrendous and outlandish it made our skin literally crawl. I had to finally get up and go outside, having Jewish blood, I am not surprised I did not rent by shirt off of my body.

    I will stand firm in saying we loved the people but Bill Johnson’s, Apostolic Reformation Movement is truly yet another cult. It is not safe and we also experienced spiritual warfare while exiting. Of course part of this came when I/we felt compelled to speak out ad the same knowledge of the word that expose darkness also delivers those in times of need?

    Does God work through donkeys and use His power to reach every living soul. Absolutely, and we have seem Him do so through belief systems that were seriously questionable. God unlike his creation has but one goal. John 3: 16; “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. I thank Yeshua/Jesus that we were able to experience another deceptive theology, get free, and have our peace return to us. Matthew 10:14: “If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet.”

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  105. Mkayla, this is a long shot but is there any way we could have a phone conversation? I Have so many questions, feeling so overwhelmed with all this heavy twisted doctrine. Been in it for 10 years. Out now. Friends at Bethel. Bethel infiltrating other friends churches etc. aaaaah!! Caelene Peake

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  106. Found you observations interesting and certainly as the scripture says “iron does sharpen iron”. However I also found many of your comments and conclusions to be no differently arrived at than many of those you contradict. (From your experiences and personal interpretations) There is no doubt many claims and eroneous things are done in the name of Christ as have always been, even since the early church. The apostle Paul himself fought against such things in his day. We are commanded not to be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. (Eph.4:14) However to generalize and cast dispersion on any who don’t agree with your personal foregone conclusions and scriptural interpretations is as dangerous and reckless as those that you decry. For all of your negative experiences in some of the groups you’ve encountered, I can also give you positive, life changing, Christ transforming examples of many who experience absolutely the opposite. It is true that revival is messy and there are always excesses when God starts moving. John Wesley the great reformer himself once prayed, after the revival had died out for the time: “Oh Lord, send us the old revival, without the defects; but if this cannot be, send it—with all its defects. We must have revival.”
    The bottom line is that when someone walks away from an encounter with God or with His power, were they are changed in some way to be more like Christ? Many followed Christ for the power they saw but ultimately were left unchanged by the encounter. However that in itself did not reduce or discredit the legitamcy of the origin of His power. It is in fact human nature to desire the power but to refuse to surrender on a heart level to the Master.
    And while I won’t get into a doctrinal debate in a comment box with you on some of your forgone conclusions, I do believe you have encountered some very negative experiences and should speak out about those. You absolutely have some very legitimate concerns. Many of your criticisms however are a matter of your personal opinion and conclusions drawn your personal experiences and not necessarily grounded in an objective approach to Scripture. It could easily be said that one man’s interpretation of Scripture to support his own conclusions are not the same as God’s Word even though Scripture be quoted. What you refer to as false signs and lying wonders seem more to refer to anyone who does not agree with your personal theological conclusions about how you believe things should be done. And while it is clear in Scripture that the coming and revealing of the antichrist will be accompanied by signs and false wonders as well as false prophets (2Thess.2:9; Mark13:22) it is also clear that God confirms His Word by true signs and wonders (Mark16:17;Heb.2:4). To attribute all manifestations as lying signs is a dangerous mistake. It seems your way of determining if something is truly from God leans more toward your personal experiences and your private interpretation of Scripture than on an honest and methodical approach to God’s Word. Careless statements about who and what is from God in absolute terms based upon your own private interpretations of scripture personal prejudice to the issues is not a collegiate approach and theologically sound method. It will crumble under close scrutiny. And while I believe that we live in an hour that it will not serve the Lord’s people to be naive and gullible about spiritual things, I also believe that all things must ultimately come back to a sound and educated approach to Scripture and the God of the Scripture.
    I do love your quest for truth and your love of the Savior. Perhaps we can all benefit from an honest and humble approach to these issues.

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  107. Hi , I’m just wondering if you knew of any denominations or churches that stay away from that whole new age kundalini junk. I’m not sure where to go from here I’ve had a lot of “them” lay hands on me from when I was about 13 I’m 32 now and I got saved in 08 and there’s a lot of visions and voices going on all day every day. Also how do you pray to get this stuff out of you?

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    • Hmmm if you want a denomination that stays away from it..you can try Reformed..they are way away from it..or Baptists. Each non-denominational church is different. There are churches who are mildly charismatic and believe in healing but haven’t gone off the NAR cliff, but you just gotta watch and observe. If the church starts talking more about experiences vs the word of God….run.

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  108. Hi,
    I hope i’m posting this in the right place.
    I recently found your site by doing a search on John Paul Jackson out of curiosity. I saw the Daystar people promoting a book of his. I never watch christian television but i happened to be passing thru and thought what are they promoting on this station? Like you, I check everything. Basically i know a ministry by their overall message/balance, are they awake and warning etc.

    Please bear with me I am not good at wording things.

    I like your site that you are warning and honest enough to admit you struggle with some subjects still.
    There are too many contentiously contending in a scornful way when they actually should be getting along but are proud and want their group to be right about everything.
    I am against ecumenicalism like what’s going on these days, but there’s a difference in some cases we should not be fighting. (long story.)

    I wanted to share some things with you that i truly believe will be a blessing.
    Please believe me I am sharing this with you after narrowing down so much thru the years and I don’t like to waste anyones time or mine.

    Please try and check whenever you have time. Not trying to overload you just wanted to say enough in one shot.

    I thank God I found these sermons. Maybe you have already heard of this church.
    http://www.tscnyc.org/media_center.php?pg=sermons

    I dont know your schedule but if I can convince you to hear anything please check some out whenever you can.

    Don’t draw back (is a good one about losing the supernatural when you look for it.)

    A temporary God appointed wilderness

    The battle that rages for your mind

    speaking for God in a hopeless time

    The cry of the shipmaster

    Shouting glory in the temple

    Returning to divine purpose (sounds ecumenical but he’s not,other sermons bear that out)

    There are so many great ones but these came to mind. I take notes from all the learning I get from these.

    Pastor Carter Conlon is not a cessationist, has never gone off into these weird movements and has spoken against the false revivals, prosperity gospel etc and said the true church(remnant) always suffers the false one. This man stays in the word,points to it always and is afraid to mishandle it. He often digs deep into the scriptures and points out things many overlook but when he says it you realize it’s there, whereas liars i’ve heard cause a reaction of huh? They left me confused for a while.

    He preaches the whole counsel of God and I am thankful we found this church.
    He has even preached things, sorry to admit I didn’t want to hear but I know it was God.
    Basically because of all the things he says I believe he is hearing from God and a true shepherd.
    There are many false, but a handful of Godly shepherds.

    I dont want to build up a man. He has said the same, no more christian superstars and that God must get the glory. I just mentioned these things to give a little background.

    Pastor Carter also believes God called them to do a world wide prayer meeting
    http://itstimetopray.org/
    So they fast every tuesday and pray live. You can submit prayer requests too.
    He said it’s the little things God wants to deal with in our lives and all the prayers are in vain if you are not willing to repent and get things out of your life causing powerlessness to be able to have a testimony to help others for a harvest because Christ is coming soon.

    There are 1 minute daily devotionals
    http://itstimetopray.org/radio-devotionals/

    People who start asking God whats going on, seem to be getting drawn out of all this balogna and also about all this endtime deception & apostasy, & the wolves seem to be linking together.

    There are some good write ups over at another site i found recently
    http://safeguardyoursoul.com/nar-new-apostolic-reformation-delusion/

    There’s also a program called frances and friends
    http://www.francesandfriends.com/about.html

    Some days are more interesting than others. Also depends on what panel members are there. They have regularly spoken against NAR, hebraic roots, wof, theophostic prayer, etc.
    Sarah Leslie, Johanna Michaelsen, Warren Smith(came out of the new age and sees it in the church now). They have been guests and other people like them who warn. So whether people think Frances and Friends are off a bit or not I like to tune in because where else has a ministry on tv been letting on people who warn? I don’t see any.

    I try to share TSC sermons and prayer meetings with some friends I told them just check it out and they haven’t found the time to see even one, but they just love and won’t miss a Sid Roth It’s supernatural episode…..

    Anyway, they have a good balance on Frances and Friends as far as the panel members.
    Mike Muzzeral in particular when he is there. He used to be involved in a christian cult and God told him never put your salvation in another mans hands. He really started studying and now regularly warns ppl not to go by dreams, experiences etc. Some viewers challenge that but they stay on point. They discourage this.
    Jim Nations is another researcher and well there’s alot of deep info there.
    John Rosenstern ex catholic. Very bright person.
    Dave Smith ex psychologist totally against it now.

    Interesting thing, a panel member there said of all the groups he’s been around he had no witness in his spirit that the NAR were even christians.

    I notice most people are caught up in one thing or another and when ppl try to warn them they think it doesn’t apply to them or the warners are judgemental or less spiritual or in fear or trying to say we know it all or just off on our own little side interest like them and it’s not really needed.

    A famine of the word is the reason ppl are being swept up here and there.
    There are also many who innocently think because a christian came to share with other christians nothing could be wrong. Thanks to some weird experiences and Frances and friends I was cautious when something was introduced and then I’d go check the scriptures and all over the net. Everyone else jumped right in.
    (My sheep hear my voice)you know it when you hear it(the truth)again.

    Sorry so long but I have a few questions.

    Everyone I know including myself do not believe christians can be possessed,
    so when ppl get these feelings and manifestations etc etc what do you think is happening?
    I have my own opinions but i’m curious what you think.
    Have you read what some Alice bailey said has to happen to the churches?
    Please get back to me when you can.

    Thank you for your site and time.
    God bless

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    • Hi Terry. Yes I am familiar with most of the links you have posted but don’t really follow them and even less so with Swaggart. Do I believe a Christian can be possessed? It is a loaded question! LOL – This is what I now believe. When we allow other teachings that are not found in the word of God, new revelation by dreams and visions, god told me this and he said that, to become our teaching we have followed other gods. When we allow others to lay hand on us and impart gifts and things from those who teach false doctrine we get a part of that. We manifest, we become hungry for more of the same which isn’t the Lord. I will tell you the improper laying on of hands is most dangerous, and we are warned that no one lay hands on hastily! God allows this as judgement and he will allow us to follow as long as we chose. I do not believe a true Christian can be possessed. I do believe they will become oppressed, and heavily so by the workings of the demonic. Who is to say how long until they are allowed to burn in their choices, and at that point possession is possible. The real question is whether or not a person is teaching true doctrine, not on whether or not they are possessed. A true Christian will not be allowed to continue for very long. The Holy Spirit will pull out whoever is willing to see the truth and dare to break free. A false teacher cannot remain that way because of the leading and conviction of the Holy Spirit. If someone continues in false teaching they are to be questioned because they are out of alignment with the Head, which is Christ and we should give great pause to their teaching. Instead, we find ways to excuse it. We are told to test all things, to hold fast to what is true, to work out our salvation in fear and trembling and to check teaching against the actual word of God that it be so. I am almost finished reading Johanna Michaelsen’s The Beautiful Side of Evil, and I highly recommend it. Tho it was written in the 70’s it has great place in our time. It is a warning from a sister who has been there!

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      • Terry, let me add that I have grappled (is that a word??) with this topic myself from the very beginning. I will say in my own experience that I did feel possessed at times, tho I didn’t call it that then. It was after coming out when I began to see the huge place the demonic had taken over, the voice, the dreams, the visions, the words, the tongues, the inability to stand and to manifest like one ridden with disease, the sensations of heat and cold and the presence of beings or what I thought were angels. As a true Christian and one who kept calling out for truth, I was so granted that. But it was a horrific process coming out and I was alone in it aside from the power and presence of God. There were days I didn’t think I would live, and other days I thought I would lose my mind. Neither of those happened. God in his mighty unmatched power and love, made this blog happen, helping many see the truth. To Him I bow.

        I started to say a true Christian will be pulled out – we know His voice and I do believe the unveiling of the demonic is one way I saw the truth. You see, it all started so nice – the feeling of heat, just barely warm, peaceful kind, guiding – the words of prophetic (false) but with great accuracy, all took a turn, when the voice became pushy and rude, even threatening, and the warm became like fire or electricity – no peace, but pain. That is where I started to really press in to the Lord if you will, asking why – – I found out. And you know what? Jesus Christ still saves. 🙂

        Blessings to you.

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        • Hi. Thanks for answering. I was thinking only recently that your answer might be the right one. I will lean that way for now. Like when Hitler used to give speeches many ppl said they would get a feeling (that was a little more than an emotion), or when ppl are attacked by demons they can feel it. This happened to someone I know that was backslidden.

          I guess how it will be when most accept the strong delusion that will come in the future .

          I do believe in making multiple choice /reasonable “excuses” for ppl but not. Hard to explain, i’m prolly not wording it right. This goes for all subjects I think about. Example: there are ppl who roam the net and go defend say Osteen, so they make up every excuse in the world but pretend they went to be fair.

          But then for example there was a guy who said he warned a pastor and now he won’t listen to said pastor because he didn’t respond how he thought he should. Then started listing every condemnation judgement scripture as tho his house will burn and they’ll all die etc.
          I’m exaggerating to say that even God doesn’t leave ppl that fast and the guy shouldn’t have decided to use every judgement scripture in the bible for that pastors supposed future downfall. He even went to do a youtube video against the pastor which i know is overdone so of course don’t believe everything i read or hear on the net.

          The fruit is there & overwhelming & I prefer he be there than not. Think hes more a help than a problem. The pastor isn’t perfect, no church is. Even the guy admits the ministry is great and he has a burden for it and such(no im not talking about Swaggart).

          A person can die in some deception/error and all these judgements won’t befall them. Sometimes ppl (like the pastor) lean on their own understanding in some area and take time with it but will be willing to stop or wutever if they truly believe they hear it from God. The fruit is there and too much fruit for me to ignore. I know I can still get learning from them. That’s the “point” of a preacher etc.

          I mean if they were around I would fellowship with them. I do a weigh in the balance type thing, otherwise we would end up “alone”. Surely we are to have fellowship.

          I think some ppl make up their minds too quick without hearing enough to make sure.
          I leave things alone and say im not sure until I really decide to check.

          I think also anyone on tv can be judged easier and you will pick up on more negative. I thought about it and realized if i were there i’d look worse probably.
          I won’t ask why you don’t “follow” swaggart, please don’t bother, I have heard it all.
          many dif reasons all over the net and i leave room open for multiple choice reasonings, but I personally would rather they be there than not with all the warnings and such, and alot of ppl really have been rescued out of some deep doo because of it. That means God used the truth and them in all their imperfectness. (by the way I don’t follow them either I like certain programs and tune in depending on the topics. )

          Also the safeguard site I don’t like that they call everyones salvation into question i mean some could be a horrible back slider not an unsaved wolf. I haven’t read it all yet.Basically I still like alot of the articles because they think some of what I believe only they word it better.

          Let’s say you don’t believe worship is that important but I do. ( I think I read that here on your blog somewhere). I would not stop reading your blog because I think you got that wrong.
          Too much good here. 🙂
          Also you said you don’t believe ppl can intercede for a nation but some ppl I know including myself think we are hearing 2nd chronicles 7:14. This is i think to get us right with God and maybe spare us some time and mercy for the harvest who will come in. Also I believe God can heal a land, though the world will get worse and no one I know thinks there will be a world wide revival. The world doesn’t revolve around one nation if it overall turned for the better. Kinda how the U.S was for a short time.(with all it’s faults. It was a christian nation.)

          Good example: Pastor Carter travelled to a small place in another country, he didn’t want to at 1st and ppl said there’d be danger etc . He obeyed and went and the overall area including the mayor responded. That doesn’t contradict scripture because it was a small localized area.

          Maybe you meant in the NAR way? since they think they can just roam around and make all nations christian or whatever they say.

          I have a friend who started to listen to some wof preachers, an older lady that’s forgetful and not that good at doctrine, but she does love God and without God working thru her I might be toast. She has a ministry called in His loving hands, she has a heart for abused ppl and nursing home ppl and well she helped me out of some deep trouble. I wouldn’t cast her away as a friend cuz she is a bit mixed up, I’m just patient with her. Thankfully for her she doesn’t always watch them or fully grasp what they are saying since they are “fast” talkers.

          To me, anyone close enuff definitely helping with the fruit scale tipping more good than bad is fine for now as in for fellowship.

          You do believe there are good pastors and churches still right? (flaws and all.)

          Anyway I still have questions so disturbing to me that they’re between me and God for now.

          But I like to read your site and about others experiences and how they’re figuring thru it.

          Sorry for all of my talking, and it doesn’t help that i’m bad at wording things.
          I just found your site to be very interesting.

          I’ll give you a break now. 🙂 Thanks again for your time.

          God bless you and your site.

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          • Yes, there is a specific context for the things you are mentioning. I do believe in worship when it is the right kind. The worship I was involved in, stemming from charismania, goes on for hours, induces visions and experiences, manifestations, etc. It ends up being about the worshipper and not the Creator. As for intercession, I don’t agree with public meetings and all the emphasis on doing so will change the course of the nation. Excuse me? What is happening in America? Yet we see these same things go on over and again and most of them are supported by the very people I warn about, yeah – NAR false and self-appointed prophets and apostles. So something is happening indeed as we see the entire moral and Christian backing of America turn mushy and into sin – wrong is called right, and all that so called intercession changed nothing. However, I do believe in true intercession, I do believe in real prayer and remember where the bible speaks to go into the closet and shut the door…etc., in light of the context here – these people advertise and want to be seen and noted by others for their good works! See the difference.

            A request that in the future if you would comment on the specific article, rather than post all of your concerns here – it is a bit confusing and it would make for better discussion so I can see what it is you are referring to, especially if you are somewhat quoting me. I do appreciate that and encourage your comments in this way. 🙂

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  109. O.K.Sorry. I’m so used to talking in person not on the internet. I Write on the net once a blue moon. Prefer to spend my time reading.

    I hear ya. i see the difference. But with the world wide prayer meetings that’s not their point. He said we will be falsely accused, mocked etc because we are in a dark time and it will get worse until the end and only one in a score will hear but they are worth it. & that we need to be a testimony and to stop being light about things and many christians are wanting freedom in their life etc compared to the laodicean type church. A sentence he says regularly is: for the glory of God and the souls of men.
    He words things better though.

    Thanks again, keep up the good work & God bless.

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  110. I am terrible at getting my point across over the net because I am used to “lazy” speaking in person and people eventually get what i’m trying to say. I almost never type anything( talk) over the net (hard enuff for me in person) & making matters worse I’ve been drained lately from getting over an illness and lack of sleep, so I guess I have gone and done it again.
    In person I can keep rewording things till I get it right. on the net, not so easy.

    When you say you don’t know what I mean are you talking about my comments on the prayer meeting? or your comments?

    when I apologized it was cuz i posted in the wrong spot. I know now to post under what I read instead of bringing it all here in this part.

    If it’s your comments about worship, nar, and prayer and what you were involved in I understand.

    If it’s about the world wide prayer meetings, I was saying they aren’t praying on behalf of the nation like to “save” the nation. I can give many quotes this pastor has said to explain that’s not the point. You can go hear it now for yourself. They pray for the persecuted church, ppl who need jobs, the sick, drug addicted, basically struggling/hurting christians who join together to pray for one another. (longer story but thats the basics of it.)

    I don’t know when I’ll be able to get back to you because we’re fixing to get a tropical storm.

    I hope I clarified. If not let me know.

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  111. Forgot to add if you meant what I said about 2chronicles 7:14. I have heard some examples like the one i gave somewhere in one of my posts further up(although I didn’t go into detail but the preacher delivered a messageGod put on HIs heart, the place had a repentance, forgiveness between tribes moment) where an overall turn around has happen in an area and makes the place better than it was. That this is an example of this helping but it does not contradict scripture.

    If scripture says the world is going to get worse and for example the majority of jamaica turns christian that made that area better but clearly the world is still going downhill, the mideast turmoil etc, is still happening.

    I hope I explained better this time. Also some pastors believe God is going to do or allow things to happen to get peoples attention. and that it is His mercy that He will do this. That in those times a number of wayward christians and some unbelievers who mocked us will come back to ask us about what we were telling them because we will have Gods peace.
    That still won’t be a “revival” but a harvest. Meanwhile the rest will go on and still get worse. I so hope I worded this better this time.

    I believe I have heard God about worship, prayer, and well all of this deception stuff to be on the look out.

    God Bless

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  112. I believe God could heal this country because it says if my people…. it doesnt look likely but more like we can still pray and hold back alot. A temporary stay on some things I guess.
    There is still a sizeable amount of christians here who are concerned and awake.

    Does this sound like double speak? Maybe i’m being too optimistic.

    Think about it, if God were to heal this land that’s not unscriptural because one area(the U.S) isnt the whole world. The world doesnt revolve around the U.S. (again, I don’t think it will most likely happen, but I have heard of these examples in some areas in other countries.

    Just one or a few desperate christians prayed to God(in areas steeped in idolatry), God sends them help by way of missionaries etc and next thing they know there are wells, farming, schools, etc and more ppl around them coming to Christ because of it. it benefitted them and the surrounding areas.

    There is also a place where some thugs etc from surrounding areas “out of towners”started bothering them trying to extort money, food, etc, because they saw the area doing well.

    Again the itstimetopray.org prayer meetings are not for the purpose of praying thinking a huge revival is coming. The pastor there doesnt think that.

    There are still some good churches.
    One church I went to some years back, the pastor said I dont believe the name it and claim it stuff. Also got hated on for rejecting the Howard Brown laughter stuff.
    A congregant there tried to introduce it there and when the pastor said no, the congregant said he would not step foot in his church again because he rejected it. Some ppl left with him cuz they wanted what they believed were greater moves of the Spirit.

    Another bible study group i went to, tried to introduce Rick Warren stuff but i had already heard about it from Frances and friends.

    The church I attend now, the pastor rejects the Rick warren,wof, and all that other list of stuff.

    A lady i met at a low point in life tried to do theophostic prayer on me and back then I didn’t know what it was but I reasoned if I ain’t ever heard of it or needed it before, I don’t need it now.
    I was desperate for answers and such, but decided to be cautious. She viewed my response as not really wanting help. Now that I know what it is I am glad I rejected it.

    What I see from alot of aquaintances, they seem to be getting the strange stuff from t.v like soaking prayer and things like that that sound spiritual.

    Around here, I haven’t run into a church that has tried to introduce Bill johnson type stuff.

    So when I say I am hearing 2 chronicles 7:14 I mean im using the majority of the scripture to explain what I am trying to say.( maybe not the heal our land part). That God wants to do a work in ppl who care especially now because of the times we are in.We need to humble ourselves and pray ,repent, and seek His face etc. Prayer instead of all this other stuff ppl have been trying to get God’s attention with.

    Did I explain better this time?

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    • Terry, I do believe Go can change a nation, but he does it thru one person at a time – repentance. We are not living in the times that this scripture refers, tho – wow! It would be wonderful. I believe we are living in the end times, the time of the falling away – 2 thess, a time when all things wrong are called right and people have forgotten God, or would prefer a more palatable social gospel. Still we pray for the lost, the deceived – and things go on in that way as always and we keep doing the work of the kingdom because God does not change.

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  113. Well i’ll leave it at this, I do believe it’s one person at a time too,
    I do agree we are in 2 thess. also.
    and you said: Still we pray for the lost, the deceived, we keep doing the work of the kingdom.
    AMEN!
    God Bless you,

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  114. Pingback: so let’s hash it out… | Valse leraren in de Eindtijd -- False teachers in the Endtimes

  115. I meant to tell you that this link you have on your site:
    Reinventing Jesus Christ by Warren B Smith
    doesn’t lead to this write up anymore. It’s some person that thinks the bible is all flawed etc.
    Just thought i’d let you know.

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  116. Hello, My name is Mindy….I just found out about you on youtube from a radio interview I happened across. I wanted to share my recent post with you. I was curious what your thoughts were on where I’m currently at. I’m hoping God will make clear to me what is deception and what isn’t. There’s a link in my post to another post I recently put up explaining what I’m currently going through. Hoping to find answers! My spirit feels like it’s in turmoil.
    https://thisgirlcalledmindy.wordpress.com/2016/05/10/deception-unveiled/

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  117. Oh man, I haven’t even gotten through half this thread and I’m finding I have even more questions! And I’m exhausted. I have one distinct moment in my life where I do believe God spoke to me. I was desperate for His help and I believe I heard Him say (in my mind) in response to my question of why, “Because I don’t want you to be dependent on anyone but Me.” It calmed me immediately and the next day my prayers were answered. Was this not God?!? Because it most certainly seemed to be Him. It was one of those I new that I knew that I knew moments and it’s never happened again. Also, my Vineyard church endorses the School of Kingdom Ministry where they try and train you how to hear a word from God. It has always frustrated me because they will ask what I’m hearing and I say every time, “NOTHING.” Sometimes I may share a thought that comes to mind but I’ve never felt it was a direct word from the Holy Spirit.

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  118. This whole movement freaks me out the more I see of it. My relatives suddenly got into the whole NAR thing at the suggestion of one of my very strange relatives who were “soaking” 3-4 times a week at a place on the east coast somewhere. Their attendance at the soaking event led them into a series of weird decisions. First they married someone else who also attended in a hurried manner- to the point of where even their pastor told them “no you guys shouldn’t just yet” but they ignored his advice and did so anyways. Then they ran a franchise type business and wanted to give prophecies out to customers. Needless to say the owner told them to stop. Then they got offended and left, and claimed it was “god who told them to move” around 3,000 miles away. They were having their home and everything paid for by the franchise owner. Their kids were given weird words about who they would marry, etc. Two of them (because of the words) traveled with them halfway across the country. They called themselves “ministers” and took donations from all sorts of people. Their ministry was basically giving prophetic words randomly to people. Meanwhile they were ill and their health deteriorated. One of them had a stroke… however that didn’t stop them from driving to every NAR event that was happening all over the country, even illegally at times since they were prohibited from driving! One of their kids went off to IHOP to get even more weird. The other one got heavily involved in Bethel’s healing rooms. The couple would go to the healing rooms as if it were their “church.” They had it playing in the background everywhere they went 24/7. Everything is about being on the “cutting edge” to them.. (i.e. NAR junk). Meanwhile their health continues to deteriorate. Their one child married some other Bethel attendee….then they cranked out more kids for Joel’s Army…naming them all something weird and old-testamenty… Every person influenced by NAR thinks they need to produce as many children as humanly possible (this is something I’ve noticed), because of the whole Joel’s Army crap. If its not crank out children then you have to live as a holy nazarite or something else weird like that- almost monasticism. They gave me several false prophecies on a number of topics… Later I wondered why I was so upset about where my life was at, and I realized it was from these weird prophecies that never happened. I had to repent for believing them, but also started to notice how entirely WEIRD everything was/is with this couple. They were living entirely unbiblically (the husband doesn’t work or anything and doesn’t support his family at all). They run to and fro at each “prophecy.” And jump in lines to get “words” all the time…that is their god. At one point they were promoting a book that clearly had unbiblical Hindu junk in it. Of course it was ok since someone at a NAR conference was handing the book out. All their children feel pressure to have Joel’s Army babies. Meanwhile one of their kids dated an unbeliever, the other spent 10+ years trying to get into art (probably due to some word someone gave them), etc. Its whack! And their health continues to deteriorate. They are basically destitute, but afraid of the government so they refuse to go to social services to get assistance in any way. Their eschatological NAR insanity has led them down the paranoid trail to the point of not even wanting health insurance! It’s garbage. It is sad when you look back to their pre-NAR days. The one was apparently successful at their business, and the other was finally rebuilding their life. NAR and its prophecies basically sent them down a vapid rabbit hole.

    But that is not where it ends. I know a couple of other people whose relatives have been into NAR and it hasn’t helped them at all. In one case, (they both attend the same NAR denomination) a friend’s mom was into NAR to the point of her completely turning her daughter off to ANYTHING Christian and the girl became an atheist. The other friend has again a family member who goes to a NAR church and they are obsessed with eschatological conspiracy theories to the point of where that is their god. They live in fear 24/7 to the point of it damaging their relationships with everyone they know, including their family. They live entirely unbiblically, but run around acting like they are Christians and quoting NAR junk. Once their kid, my friend, and the other friend (the now atheist-pre atheist days) went to a NAR youth service at one of the parent’s churches….. yeah that didn’t go good. They felt what was going on made them uncomfortable. When they decided to leave the church via the back door the youth minister confronted them and acted like they were not “spiritual” enough or even Christians for not wanting to partake in the insanity. You can’t blame them. Except that is just what the pastor did. As a result the one girl got extremely turned off to Christianity, the other one did as well for a long period (maybe a good 7 years to the point of not even calling themselves Christian anymore). Luckily the one has turned around… but the other is still entirely turned off by anything Christian because of the NAR garbage. Her mother went around “purging” everything this girl owned they thought had a “demon” in it and whatnot…and I’m sure accusing her of being possessed as well.

    What I see as the fruit of NAR is anything but what you find in the Bible. I dont see love, joy or peace…I see a large group of youth motivated out of a self-centered desire to be “important” to God…vying for “greater and greater anointings.” This isn’t what is preached in scriptures. To me it is an offshoot of the entire “me generation,” garbage. It appeals to youth because it makes them feel special. The gross part is that people ruin their lives based on “words” people told them. They are ambushed in parking lots, NAR conferences, etc. But no one can discern if it is God or not. Most NAR people do not know how prophecies were given in scriptures…if you point out that Jesus’ prophecies were not feel good- and that He gave very few, they just blow you off. The idea that God is talking 24/7 and you can just tap-into the God stream is insane.

    The last time God really spoke to me (of the 3 times in the last 3 years), it was to tell me to not let a NAR person lay hands on me. I felt sick when they were praying for me..like something horrible was getting in me. I then very clearly heard God say “DONT LET THEM LAY HANDS ON YOU.” They were annoyed when I pushed their hand away. I had to push them off REPEATEDLY. (Unfortunately I was in a situation where I couldn’t entirely avoid them praying for me without making a scene—but i could stop them from trying to “impart” some garbage).

    The sad part is so many see the NARs as on the cutting edge (whatever that means- I thought God doesn’t change). If you point out that a lot of what they do is unscriptural….you get blown off. Their favorite argument is that “the devil imitates the Holy Spirit,” so they say the yogis who have a kundalini is just a mimic of what God does. (WTH?!) I don’t know how to scripturally point out this is complete garbage. I always keep saying “a wicked generation looks for a sign.” Since it seems that NAR is obsessed with signs…. sigh..

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    • Hi, could you PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE explain what you mean by the statement about the Kundalini being a false Holy Spirit? I am right at this point in time, fair smack in the middle of trying to get free of all these false teachings, and get to God’s truth … THE TRUTH. Not this NAR/IHOP garbage, and rot that has spread the world over via the internet. The thing is, I have am still experiencing physical manifestations of something that is certainly not of God. To me, from what I have extensively researched,it is the Kundalini spirit. And I am praying that as I learn the TRUTH… THE REAL CHRISTIAN TRUTH, I will get free of this entire hiddeous experience (including physical manifestations and shocking physical health along with it). I believe it is only the grace of God (the real one) that I am still alive. Some of the stuff that I have experienced is just mind blowing. And I want out of the entire thing. I want God’s truth, and health and a decent life again. Could you also please recommend which type of Bible is the most accurate (truthful). I am at the stage where it’s better to consult several. Some people are full on into the KJV and swear the others are of the devil. Yet, I have heard the same argument in reverse! There is SO MUCH contradictory information and teaching out there, that to try to become a follower of Christ (a Christian) it is like navigating a day trip through hell itself. It’s a minefield.
      If M’kayla has any advise or help for me, I would greatly appreciate it. My life and my son’s life is truly depending on getting out of this hideous deception and delusion. I pray to God this is not just another dead end, journey up the garden path. I am sick and I am tired. Truly. I want the TRUTH OF GOD. The REAL GOD OF THE BIBLE… NOT THE ENEMY. What a nightmare! I put my faith in Jesus Christ (the real one) along with the Holy Spirit to guide me out of this mess. All I have left is faith.
      Ronda

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      • Ronda, the connection between Kundalini and the Holy Spirit is worded in such a way because the power that makes people feel, fall down, have supernatural experiences is not of the Holy Spirit. Some people call it Kundalini, but I believe there is more to it than just that. Either way, the power is not of the Lord. If you are serious of being free, repent and turn to the word of God. Have faith that the Lord will restore both of you, because He will. I would suggest reading https://mkayla.wordpress.com/2009/07/27/freedom-from-false-spirits-of-revival/ as it has proven to be very helpful.

        I came out of the false teachings of Word of Faith, healing and prophetic movements and false signs and wonders of dream/vision interpretation. The Lord restored me and I started this blog to help others in the same way. I hear stories and know it still happens. Please be encouraged and stay in touch!

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      • Hi Ronda. I’m gonna give you some info about ‘which Bible’ to use.
        First of all, you have to know that the Bible wasn’t written in English. The English language didn’t even exist when Jesus was walking the earth, so every version you get that isn’t in Greek, Aramaic or Hebrew is a translation.
        The KJV was good for its time, but its time was in the days of King James. In fact, the version that most people use isn’t even the original KJV, but is a revision published more than 100 years later. We don’t speak or write this way any longer in English, and for some- if not many- people, it can be very confusing to try to understand. Imagine if everyone around you was telling you the most important things they would ever say, but speaking like they were in a Shakespeare play! That is how King James English is heard today. It almost requires a translation itself!
        That being said, some versions are better than others. Now, I was raised on the KJV, so I can read it easily, but I also use the NIV, NASV and ESV for comparison. I also use blueletterbible.org, as it has many translations available that one can compare if necessary, and you can check out the Hebrew and Greek as well if you want to study that deeply. Keep in mind the Bible is not an English document, though it has had great influence on our language.
        Anyone who tells you the KJV is the only one the God approves of is an unlearned idiot, like Gail Riplinger, for example. (A review of her terrible work was published in 1994, you can read it here: http://answers.org/bookreviews/newagevers.html ) How are the Russians and the Spanish and the French, whose languages have been around longer than English, ever supposed to know what the Bible says? Was God waiting until the 1600’s to let everyone know what was going on? Of course not.
        I think that one thing people miss a lot in reading the Bible is that is was meant to be read aloud and be understood by its hearers, who may not have been able to read themselves. The books of the Bible were not written in an overly literary society at any point, so people would have heard and understood it upon hearing it aloud. You may try that approach as well.

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  119. God enlightened me about false Prophets I’d been serving under 5 years ago. When I first realized all the false teaching I’d been taught my jaw nearly hit the floor. I suddenly understood why I never got the SAME “revelations” of the word that the “teachers” were getting. It never lined up and I was always reluctant to go home and do my own study of the sermons I’d just heard in church. Now, I allow God to lead me in the word and allow the Holy Spirit to teach me. I finally get it.

    I have noticed that the false Prophet will always make you feel there’s something wrong with YOU and “you’re not perfect or righteous enough” when you have a sincere heart to serve God. It’s almost as if they hate you. I just had an experience like that with someone on Twitter. I don’t mind a word of correction when it IS called for. But when I lovingly tell you when you’re wrong and your ego takes over< I'm no longer listening to the false spirit speaking through you.

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