Freedom From False Spirits of Revival

The following information was a great help to me in getting rid of those wild manifestations presented by false revivals and revivalists, teachers, evangelists, apostles and prophets, the big-named elitists as well as those considered  nameless, faceless but false non- the- less, through the word of faith, false prophetic, healing, and all other ungodly teachings and impartations, anointings, giftings and visitations, dreams and visions through improper teaching and improper use of “laying on of hands”, and the anointing with oil,  and by way of agreement and acceptance of these things by the deceived believer.   The demonic, sensual, and much sought after tangible presence of and voice of “god”,  to entice the believer to expect a physical touch, feeling, experience, or emotional response from God, or to speak in other, often several different languages that he himself does not know, otherwise known as “diverse tongues”. Additionally to expect to receive new revelation, gifts, power, authority, and healings, prophetic or creative ability by way of visitation and impartation by angels or by way of impartation by another person individually or through “fire tunnels” who claims the God-given ability to pass these on.

All these have set themselves against the Holiness of all that is God, His deity, person, and presence of the one and only true Holy Spirit and the infallible word of God through salvation by the blood of Jesus Christ and the true message of the Gospel, the way Father God intended from the beginning.

(I think that covers it.)

2 Peter 2:18-19  For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption,  for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.

Be free in Christ!

Finding Freedom From The Spirits Of “Revival”
Part 1: When Evil Perseveres
By Ed Tarkowski

Article here: http://users.stargate.net/~ejt/Revival1.htm

God is working within the “revival,” not to lead people further into it, but to lead people out of it. We should all be familiar with the phenomena of the “revival” at this point, and there have been many in the past who have hesitatingly experienced things and realized what they were experiencing was not of God. The question is, “How have they gotten free from that which tried to effect them or actually did affect them?” Some of those who have come free of the so-called “Toronto Blessing” have not had much of a struggle while others have, and it to these that I address this series. I have at one time or another heard from people who do enter into what seems like an endless battle to get free of what they had submitted themselves to. Hopefully, this article will help them to move on with the Lord.

KNOWING THIS: Jesus Has Authority Over The Spirit World

A Christian can be deceived if he does not hold fast to the word of God. If you want to be free from the effects you’ve experienced in the false “revival,” the answer is quite simple: GET BACK TO THE BASICS. The question is, what are the basics? It seems little has been written on getting free of the effects of the “revival.” Many end up rebuking demons or praying or fasting and yet the struggle goes on, for some, to be free in spite of such efforts. Their struggle and feelings they encountered when they received “the Blessing” persist or leave for a time and then return. Often, though not always, this struggle is carried on for quite a length of time, even for years, rebuking spirits in Jesus’ name only to find little or no or slow deliverance. Many have rebuked demons over and over again, yet the phenomena persists in their lives. Yet, the Scripture is clear concerning the Lordship of Christ over the spiritual realm:

JESUS CREATED THE SPIRIT WORLD:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

JESUS HAS AUTHORITY OVER THE SPIRIT WORLD:
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.

HIS AUTHORITY OVER THE SPIRIT WORLD IS SEEN IN THE CHURCH
Acts 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which show unto us the way of salvation.
18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

I believe the reason why this struggle sometimes persists is because during this time there is an emphasis on prayer, rebuking and examining oneself and what one is feeling and whether the feelings are subsiding or worsening rather than on what God has FIRST commanded. These things engulf some Christians and they talk much about their feelings and fears and doubts. For some, this cycle only tends to increase anxiety and the desire to be free. For some, doubts creep in to make the battle worse:

1. Maybe I am lost because these things persist?

2. Maybe God is so angry He has given me over to these things?

3. Will I ever be free?

4. Maybe I was never saved to begin with?

5. When will these things leave?

6. Why is God doing this to me?

7. I don’t want these feelings, but can I ever get rid of them?

Why this vicious cycle? Many have also prayed and prayed and yet the phenomena persists. Rebuking the devil and his demons and prayer are good things and they are Scriptural things that are be done to get oneself free from such things. But, to repeat, many do these things for a time and then find the manifestations and feelings trying to come back. I believe the reason this happens is given in these verses:

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and takethwith himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

When a Christian believes on Christ, he is delivered from spirits and sins of the flesh and the love for the world during an initial work of the Spirit of God in his life. This working by the Holy Spirit is to accomplish one purpose: to begin to conform one to the image of Christ in one’s Christian walk (Romans 8:26-29). This work is to bring about two things: to take out of one’s life those things that do not reflect the second purpose: bringing the believer into a walk where they manifest the character of Christ. Being conformed to His life does not mean having all nine gifts dripping off of one’s fingertips or having a powerful ministry. It has to do with the bringing forth the fruit of the Spirit in one’s life. The extent to which this is accomplished by the Holy Spirit in the believer’s life is equal to one’s faithfulness in reading the word of God in its proper context out of a deep desire to be holy as He is holy. Once the fruit of the Spirit becomes evident, one usually finds an increase of gifts and ministry to others.

The “revival” short circuits this work of the Holy Spirit by emphasizing gifts and spiritual experiences as one’s supposed preparation for service to the Lord. These gifts and experiences, of course, are counterfeits and open doors for demons to masquerade as the Holy Spirit. What Paul feared for the Corinthians then comes to pass:

2 Cor 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Notice why entrance is given to the “other gospel” or “other Jesus” or “other spirit” (which “other” there is really not): the mind has been corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. Once the simplicity which is in Christ as related in the word in context is changed, the word is corrupted and one is open to receive the counterfeit “Jesus” or “spirit.” The renewing of the mind is now, so to speak, hindered and instead on its way to being “unrenewed.” The pure word of God is exchanged for a corruption of the word of God. The truth is exchanged for a lie. The sure foundation upon which one was building his Christian life is chipped away and another foundation laid. Such a one has literally moved his house from the Rock to a sandy beach. The softness of the sand, the glorious feeling of the sun, the sound of power of the rushing waves is very enticing . . . until the storm comes one is caught in troublesome predicament.

Notice that the verses from Corinthians point to the subtlety of the adversary that is wrapped around a corruption of the word of God. The good things of the Lord are used by the adversary in a very subtle way, things such as those we mentioned: the word of God and prayer and fasting. If you are trying to get free from experiencing manifestations or feelings that you submitted yourself to and find it a struggle, acknowledge the reason for it: you have forsaken the word of God in its proper context. You have received “another gospel” that proclaimed “another Jesus” who gave you “another spirit.” When a Christian has ignorantly submitted himself to these things and then tries to get free, the ones that seem to struggle getting free are the ones who turn to prayer and fasting and rebuking without dealing with the foundation of why they got themselves in such a fix in the first place: they received “another Jesus” and “another spirit” because they BELIEVED ANOTHER MESSAGE WHICH CHANGED WHO JESUS AND THE HOLY SPIRIT REALLY ARE. David wrote,

Psa 11:1 In the LORD put I my trust: how say ye to my soul, Flee as a bird to your mountain?
2 For, lo, the wicked bend their bow, they make ready their arrow upon the string, that they may privily shoot at the upright in heart.
3 If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?

Without restoring the Scriptural foundations, there will be an ongoing battle of prayer, fasting and rebuking. How many of you have stepped into the “River Revival” only to realize later that what you experienced was not of God? How many of you then immediately turned to fasting and prayer and rebuking, only to find a battle on your hands that only persists? Have you ever said to someone, “Yesterday I felt better, but today it’s all back again.” What you need to do is to undo what you allowed to be changed regarding the foundation of your Christian life, and the origin of your problems is PRIMARILY that you allowed the word of God to be changed in your mind and heart. What you should NOT DO is DWELL ON what happened to you, but renounce those things and repent before God that you listened to another message. You need to immediately get into the word of God and STAY IN IT to get your mind filled with the truth so that where the adversary “unrenewed” your mind can be restored back to its renewed state. How do you do that? Like I said, DON’T DWELL ON the “new” message, the lie, YOU received and believed, but certainly acknowledge having accepted another message in repentance and go over it ONLY ENOUGH to replace the lies you’ve believed with the truth of God’s word and then put the lie behind you. For instance, did the preacher you listened to say, “Don’t think about it, don’t question it, just receive it. It will become clear to you later once you’ve received”? Then repent for that, and read Scripture about discerning all things and how we are to renew our minds through the reading of the word. Read in Scripture how God gives understanding and wisdom and knowledge and expects us to know what we are believing and why and not to forsake what He has said. Read about how we are to meditate on God’s word and how the spiritual man is to discern all things by God’s word. Acknowledge your desire for feelings and how you desired experiencing “the presence of God.” Repent for desiring and being driven by the seeking of experiences and good feelings. Dwell on Scripture and discern the motive behind the desires of your heart:

Eccl 8:5 Whoso keepeth the commandment shall feel no evil thing: and a wise man’s heart discerneth both time and judgment.
6 Because to every purpose there is time and judgment, therefore the misery of man is great upon him.

Why is “the misery of [this] man great”? Because he didn’t “keepeth the commandment.” Therefore, his heart was not wise and he had no discernment because he didn’t keep God’s word. The word of God is our standard and it points to our true foundation: Jesus Christ.

Once you have gone through the steps that led you into the false experience, put them behind you and don’t think about them, but dwell on the truth of Scripture that you have now returned to. Let the desire of your heart be to know Jesus, to know Him better and to realize that He has conquered all the lies and deceits of the enemy and has authority over them.

Don’t get me wrong about praying and rebuking the devil and the like. I am not saying not to do these things. Prayer is necessary and certainly the Lord would have us exercise authority over spirits when they are truly discerned. But, rebuking the devil in Jesus’ name is not a formula or a method or a thing for us to show what great power we have. That is play and show and leads to futility. We are to rebuke spirits we discern on the basis of a knowledge of Him who has been given all authority. It is our knowing Him as the one described in our opening Scriptures. The devil knows when you’re using Jesus’ name as a method or a process. That only leads to an ongoing battle that never seems to stop and can only lead to further oppression:

Acts 19:13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

Rebuking demons is a futile exercise unless they are backed up by a personal faith in Jesus Christ as the one who has power over all principalities and powers and thrones and dominions. Let me ask you this question if you are one who is constantly rebuking demons and things only seem to get worse. Have you ever had this thought while doing so: “I rebuked him and he didn’t leave. It didn’t work.” and you go one rebuking him over and over again. The fault here is with you, not with the authority of Jesus’ name. You would never allow this battle to go on and on if you really knew that you knew that you knew that Jesus’ name is spoken in His authority and that he backs up His authority. Repentance would then be in order for using His name as a formulator method. That’s using His name in vain. Reading the word of God about who He is in relation to the spirit world will bring faith in HIM as you meditate on the word and study the word to know Him more fully in this way. I’ve gone through this rebuking and rebuking until it wore me out. I would rebuke the devil while HOPING he would leave. As I read the word, faith in who Christ is came and my efforts to SOUND authoritative stopped. You know what I’m talking about. I would then rebuke whatever spirit once, and then stand on my knowledge of who Christ is and that He doesn’t lie. Doubts would still come for a very short time, but they could no longer overcome the faith in my heart concerning Christ. The constant rebuking stopped through a fuller knowledge of Him. He is risen. He is Lord of all and all authority is His in heaven and on earth and under the earth.

In Ephesians 6, Paul stated:

Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

Notice: you stand strong in the Lord and in the power of HIS might. Simply put, it isn’t who your are, it’s who He is.

11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Allowing the devil to get you to believe he didn’t leave is only an invitation for him to stay. This is one of his wiles. If you truly discern a spirit, you rebuke him once and then stand strong in the Lord. You don’t talk to him, you don’t accept his doubts aimed at your mind, but you do stand in who the Lord is and when you get your mind on who Christ IS and don’t give the devil the satisfaction by thinking he’s going to be hard to get rid of, you are resisting him and he will flee.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Yes, he will try to get you into his “revival” and yes, he will make it seem like you can’t get rid of what you are experiencing. Turn your heart and mind, then, to the word of God because Scripture says we ARE complete in Christ and we ARE more than conquerors in Him. What I am saying is what Paul said in 2 Corinthians:

2 Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

Imaginations and high things exalt themselves in our lives through the mind when we don’t stay in the word of God. These things can come through the flesh, through false apostles and teachers and prophets or from the spirits themselves. The answer to them all is a knowledge of Christ given us in God’s word because imaginations and high things exalt themselves against “the knowledge of God.”

A good comparison concerning the spiritual mind can be found at The Scriptural Mind

Finding Freedom From The Spirits Of “Revival”
Part 2: Being Established Through Repentance And The Word
By Ed Tarkowski

The blood of the Lamb of God has purchased you and you are His possession. You may fall for the wiles of the devil, but a true child of God will “hear” the persistent promptings of the Holy Spirit within and sooner or later realize he has taken a wrong road. Many believers who have stepped onto the road of deception have all had thoughts or doubts about what they were doing. They have thought thoughts like, “Something seems wrong though it seems so right” or “I am not sure about all of this. I need to be cautious.” In spite of these checks in one’s spirit, many persist and even go up for prayer during “revival” services. But, through it all, God is there, prompting one that something is wrong until the realization hits that this is not of God. When it does, he must gird up his faith that though he has committed a grievous offense in his ignorance, the blood of Jesus still avails for him:

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Notice the words “if we walk in darkness.” That’s what has happened to you when you were deceived into the “revival” and all it entails. You turned from walking in the light of God to walking in darkness. It may have looked like light, but it was darkness. It may have looked like truth, but it was a lie. It may have looked like God and His workings, but it wasn’t. It was darkness, and Jesus said,

Mat 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

This leads to another area of repentance and a turning to the word of God. Being deceived into the “revival” lead you into a fellowship that is totally contrary to the fellowship described in 1 John, yet Scripture says,

2 Cor 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

When you caught on to what you were following, you started to come out of what you were entering into. You started to return to the true fellowship God has ordained for His people, fellowship with Himself and His people. The blood cleansed your conscience from these dead works and the word in its proper context once again was the light that got you back on the narrow road.

As I stated before, some have a hard time getting free of what they have experienced, but not all do get out. I have run across four kinds of people concerning the current “revival”:

1. Those who get so involved, they are absorbed into it to the point where their “faith” will never be shaken. I believe Hebrews 6:1-8 can be applied to some who have fallen for the “revival” teachings, even though these verses in context speak of Jews returning to the Old Covenant:

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

I don’t believe in judging whether God can turn a man from evil when he goes astray, but there are some powerful implications in these verses. I also believe God does all He can to pull a wayward one back to the foundation which is in Christ, but it is the man who has to chose to repent and return.

2. Those who leave because they have been hurt or damaged and consider true Christianity a farce and leave it altogether

3. Those who come out of it immediately because the light of God’s word and conviction by the Holy Spirit is so clear

4. Those who come out of it, but struggle to get rid of the oppression and experiences and feelings

Regardless, God’s mindset, if you will, is to bring all into a relationship with Himself. His forgiveness is readily available. He still wants to establish all in His truth and in Himself. Yet, it is the heart of the individual that limits to what extent God can work to fully restore them. But, know this: God wants to ESTABLISH you again in His truth and He has the total power to do so if you will return to the faith you once followed:

1. God desires to establish you again according to His gospel through your obedience to the faith it presents to you:

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to STABLISH YOU ACCORDING TO my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

2. God wants to establish you in holiness by ridding you of the deceptions you fell for:

1 Th 3:13 To the end HE MAY STABLISH YOUR HEARTS UNBLAMEABLE IN HOLINESS before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

3. God wants to establish you in good works once again and deliver you from the works of darkness:

2 Th 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17 Comfort your hearts, and STABLISH YOU IN EVERY GOOD WORD AND WORK.

4. The Lord will establish you and deliver you from those who have not faith according to your faithfulness in doing what the word of God says. As you are faithful to His word, He is shown to be faithful to his word and will keep you from evil. Many think God will protect them from evil even when they are not responsible toward the word of God. He will certainly warn you, but He cannot force you to be faithful to His word. That is why when coming out of the “revival,” you must return towards a faithfulness to the word of God:

2 Th 3:1 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:
2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
3 But the Lord is faithful, WHO SHALL ESTABLISH YOU, and keep you from evil.
4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.

5. As I said in Part 1, there are reasons to rebuke the devil, pray and fast, but what is crucial is your faithfulness to the word of God, to study it, meditate on it, and know Him in it in full reliance on the Holy Spirit because the adversary’s main goal is to get you to depart from the word of God in its true context. If you do depart from it in ignorance, know that that effort is the adversary’s work to destroy you spiritually. But, through it all, God is prompting and warning and disturbing you that something is wrong and you should immediately check things out in His word through reading the Scriptures and prayer. The following verses has to do with persecution and trials because of preaching the gospel, but they also apply in this case:

1 Pet 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
9 Whom resist steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, ESTABLISH, strengthen, SETTLE YOU.

Notice: God WILL ESTABLISH you once again and SETTLE YOU. I say that because many get really unsettled when they realize what was happening to them. Notice, too, the meaning of the word SETTLE:

SETTLE 2311. themelioo, them-el-ee-o’-o; from G2310; to lay a basis for, i.e. (lit.) erect, or (fig.) consolidate:–(lay the) found (-ation), ground, settle.

SETTLE 2310. themelios, them-el’-ee-os; from a der. of G5087; something put down, i.e. a substruction (of a building, etc.), (lit. or fig.):–foundation.

Notice the very last word in these definitions: foundation. God will return you to your true foundation, Jesus Christ, according to your response to His trying to save you from going too far down the road of “revival” to the point that you cannot hear Him at all.

I don’t totally understand why some have such a hard time getting free of the manifestations they submitted themselves to, but I do know that it is only through the truth of God’s word that they can persevere to the point of ridding themselves of them. Jesus said, “And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” (John 8:32).

One final note for this Part is that many people struggle to get OUT OF what they have brought themselves into with very little vision of getting BACK ONTO something. For some, the effects have been so devastating that all they can see is what has happened and is happening to them and that is what they emphasize. What they need to do is to set their eyes on the narrow road they desire to start walking again and keep the emphasis there. There has to come a point where they do what Paul says:

Phil 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

There is a life and walk and a call on the Christian and after realizing one’s waywardness, one should also keep his eyes on the following as he does all he can against the oppression and then stands against those evils. Those things are described in Ephesians 6:

Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

One word of caution here. I have heard many people say things like, “When I get up in the morning, I put on my armor. I pray, ‘I put on my righteousness and the belt of truth, etc.’” One gets the impression that this is just ritual and method and words rather than a realization of the realities of what the armor is. Check yourself out on this one and ask yourself if you do that, and then study what the following verses mean and that every one is a spiritual reality centered in Christ.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

Having returned to the word of God in its true context, you can now say you have “loins girt about with truth.” You have again placed your faith in the blood of Christ and your conscience is now clean. Hopefully, you didn’t go on and on confessing how wrong you were over and over again, and that you didn’t go on and on pleading the blood of Jesus. You only need to confess your sin once, and God said when you did, the blood did its work in your conscience. Don’t get hung up in trying to feel forgiven or feeling the blood cleansing you. It doesn’t matter how you feel. What matters is you simply believe God’s word concerning your confession of sin and the immediate cleansing of your sin.

Go over the basics of the gospel once again because what you’ve been through has placed teaching in your mind that sounded like the gospel, but wasn’t. Gird yourself with the basic truths of God’s word and God’s gospel concerning His Son. Realize, too, in God restoring you that the righteousness of Jesus Christ is yours, that Christ’s righteous is still yours through your faith in Jesus and His finished work. Such a realization gives great strength against the wiles of the enemy to accuse you and oppress you.

15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

Your going over the basics should be refreshing to your spirit, and it will help set your mind on one of the purposes God has for you: to present that message to others.

16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

The truth of God’s word is restoring you and your faith will increase as you spend time in it. I mentioned in Part 1 about going over, only as necessary, the steps which led you into apostasy so you can replace those lies with the truth of God’s word concerning who He is and what He does. This truth then becomes your shield against the fiery darts of the enemy.

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

You are now on the road of maturity again, having left the road of apostasy. You are walking again in the truths of the gospel. You know what those truths are, having refreshed yourself in them. All the lies have pretty much been dealt with through the word of God, which has now restored your mind in the true knowledge of Him. The gospel and the lies you once accepted have now been destroyed and you realize that these things are the helmet of salvation, the truth of God’s word protecting you against the lies of the adversary.

18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Prayer now becomes a very important part of your restoration to the truth, interceding for others caught in the trap of the evil one. You also persevere in prayer as you watch for the wiles of the enemy and pray for God’s wisdom, strength and truth to deal with them in patient and sure manner.

19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
20 For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

You are now realizing your freedom from that which had almost engulfed you, and you pray for boldness to be a witness to the true Gospel and the true Jesus Christ.

294 thoughts on “Freedom From False Spirits of Revival

  1. Hi, was saved 1977, this site is the best I have found,it has the Spirit of Truth through & through…Loove the pure simplicity of the gospel of Christ Jesus, you have my prayer support…keep up the good work, Ciao Leon Grzesiak.

    • Amen to that last line!

      I want to just admonish you my dear for bringing the truth of Gods Word. I have no doubt you are very good at discerning It is so important in the last days to be led by the Holy Spirit and in alignment with God’s word. Your fans might be interested in the book Dressed To Kill on spiritual warfare by Rick Renner

  2. Thanks so…… much! Such Truth and Freedom – setting the captives free!!
    This article by Ed Tarkowski is ‘spot-on’ and confirms all that is happening in the small group of Believers with whom I meet, whom the Lord has brought together and who have ‘come out from among them’. The Lord is in the process of taking things right back to the ‘Foundations’of the Rock. The ‘scaffolding’ of the Holy Spirit is supporting us as the walls of untruth and deception are being demolished etc.
    I Praise the Lord, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Father of Yeshua our Saviour, for His Grace and Mercy. He is Wonderful!
    Christine

  3. Just found your blog. Good stuff. My family and I have been free from the Word of Faith Movement for two years. Praise The Lord! We are also free from the Crazimaniac Movement as well.

    Keep up the good work. I look forward to reading more good stuff!

    dh

  4. Have you heard of people all over the world seeing 111 or 1111? My friend see them all the time who is the prophetic movement and then I started seeing it too. The other day when she called me, I looked up and it was 11:11. Do you think it could be of the occult?

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  8. I know Ed Tarkowski and know he stands for truth. Thank you for adding your voice to those who are warning of false spirits in the churches. With your permission I’d like to add your blog link to my sit’s blog at http://bannerministries.wordpress.com/ because it’s difficult to find good clear information. We need to support one another. God bless!

    • Hello Tricia!

      Ed’s article was so very helpful to me and I know it has helped my readers. It is an amazing piece of work of great value. Just recently another blogger put up a testimony from his wife who also used the article to find freedom in the scriptures. Since then the readership on Ed’s article went sky high. I wonder if he knows the impact. Praise God there are still people we can turn to after our own eyes have become darkened.

      Yes, you can link, and I will do the same.

      Peace to you in the name of Jesus!
      2 Corinthians 1:3-6

  9. I have a friend who used to experience the supernatural world of ghosts etc… and now since she has become a Christian, she sees angels and actually hears God. I think she may be hearing a false spirit but most of the time she talks to God in her head and something answers her back. Mkayla, do you think that Satan can hear our thoughts? If he can’t, then it must be God who is hearing her pray and then answers her but some of the things she is hearing are really far out.

    • I don’t know that Satan can actually hear our thoughts, but I wouldn’t think that it is so. It is very possible she is only hearing her own mind, the flesh. Many people attribute their own thoughts to hearing the voice of God. The only safe way of knowing if the voice is God is if the instruction lines up with scripture. Hebrews 1:1 – God, who ate various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld His glory.

      We put far too much emphasis on the supernatural and not enough on the word! I doubt the angels your friend sees are of God. Maybe they are of the demonic, maybe they are hallucinations. I don’t mean to sound cold but we have to put this in the proper perspective. Only men were visited by angels and each time they were filled with fear! The angels were messengers sent by God to give direction and counsel. It wasn’t play time.

      Part of me wants to say she is involved with something to do with “charismania” or maybe she is not truly saved – completely given over to Christ. The scriptures would be very helpful to her in this article if she comes to the place where she realizes she needs deliverance. Christians should not be bothered with the supernatural realm in this way.

  10. Right Derek.
    The answer to all of these questions are in the bible. Slinging love-grace stones is typical of modern day nay-sayers. God is very clear on the handling of false teachers and prophets. You are right about one thing -nasty notes such as yours get the can and you knew that going in.

    As for the scrip in Ephesians – only for what is helpful in building others up – I came out of these false teachings that I expose. That is how I build others up. I speak against them because I know from first hand experience they are false. It is called discernment and if my words are discouraging maybe you should stop what you are doing and investigate your activity, weighing them with the truth of the word of God as I did myself. We are only able to see the truth when we allow the Lord to give us eyes to see it. Grace is not given to false teachers and false prophets – -they are liars. It is not easy coming out of the deception, but it can be done. God is mighty to save us! It’s in the book – read it. :)

  11. Hello Mkayla
    I am so Frusted 1… In 1980 I was a new believer and caught up in the shaeper movement. 2…Then I backslide Then found a church 3…Then preacher went gay on us 4…Then whole church went to NAR Dominion Kingdom. Then found another church

    NOW I THINK THEY ARE GETTING WRONG TEACHING

    Do you know Henry Wright????

    Do you know anyone who would know anything about him Thanks and God bless

    Is their anywhere i can give you a donation?

    My e-mail has change
    Danny Nye God bless you

    • Hi Danny.
      I’m sorry, but know that many are experiencing the same situations as you have. We ARE in this TOGETHER!

      Henry Wright is known for his belief that all illnesses have roots and can be healed. Google his name and you will get info that you are looking for. He is used in the (false) healing movement/healing rooms.

      I don’t take money. Send it to the poor – thanks tho! :)

  12. Hi. This is my first time posting here. I really appreciate this blog and this article. I think an equally-true title would be “Spirits of False Revival”, because the “revival” you’re talking about here is not true revival, when compared with the Word of God.

    RE: The “revival” short circuits this work of the Holy Spirit by emphasizing gifts and spiritual experiences as one’s supposed preparation for service to the Lord. These gifts and experiences, of course, are counterfeits and open doors for demons to masquerade as the Holy Spirit.
    __________________________________________________

    I do believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit, as delineated in the scriptures, are true gifts and are valid for today. I also believe there is, unfortunately, a lot of false teaching and doctrine which has become prevalent in the Body of Christ over the last couple of decades in particular. ITA with your last sentence above, regarding false (unscriptural) gifts and experiences.

    God bless you! :)

  13. Hi Mkayla!
    Thankyou thankyou thankyou sooo much for this blog! I always thought this stuff was a little suspicious. Praise God for truth!!!!
    BTW, I have gone to the healing rooms many times. I know that you have said a lot about them on this site, but do they all really operate the same? because the heaing rooms that I went to actually gave me scripture and a pamphlet of who I am in Christ. But now Im a little iffy if the words that I received there are actually from God. I mean, they were true and I did not feel a demonic presence at all. These healing rooms seemed a little different. What do you think?

    • Hi.
      Who I am in Christ by Neil Anderson? I have to lol and stand back for a moment to wonder who you are, where you are. Because this very same pamphlet was used in the hr I was a part of.

      If they are IAHR the core teachings would be the same led by Cal Pierce out of Spokane WA, under the – mantle – or at least – anointing – (gag) of John G Lake. I am hesitant in my wording here to be quite careful, but I do know Pierce was influenced by Lake as “god” told him to visit the grave of Lake, which he did every day for one year. I know each room is given space to operate independently, and supposedly IAHR is there to offer support and be the “covering” (covering is unbiblical).

      I would take the words to the bible and compare them. We are not looking for a loose fit, or some unused scripture in the old testament that might have the same meaning. We are looking for specifics in the light of Christ, who are you? In the light of prophets, who were they, how were they regarded by the public, what was the core message? You will see a distinct difference. These prophetic words sound good to us, are often accurate, but they are not from God because the core is in the person, not in Christ. This was a difficult area for me and I still trip on it because I still believe we can prophesy. Also please consider that God would not put this gift in a person or organization that did not adhere to his word.

      I would not rely on the ability to discern the presence of the demonic. The true test in is the bible. :)

    • BTW, I gave tons of scripture to people too. I was encouraging, supportive, sometimes emotionally tied in and had a deep concern for people- everything we might suspect as right. But we were dead wrong.

      • wow. I just did some research on Cal Pierce and that is some creepy stuff. but I completely agree with you. When I first got a prophetic word from this ministry and a church that was similar to Bethel’s ways, I was so hungry. I wanted to hear more of what God thought of me. And in a way I got very anxious when someone in the congregation would get a prophetic word about their future, because I wanted to know about my calling. And now after coming out of all of that, God showed me that in a way it is similar to divination. People are seeking these “prophets” out for the latest word. It is self-centered to the core. And usually the words had nothing to do with scripture. Now, I do believe that the gift of prophecy still exists today and have heard it many times at the church I go to now. But there is a distinct difference, and I think you mentioned it several times before on your blog. Those who have the gift of prophecy at my church, when ever a word is spoken, it is always about God and never about self. I have gotten personal words from people there, but there was a difference. It was aligned with scripture and often contained scripture in it. :)
        but I really REALLY appreciate your blog! its been very helpful and Im going to share it with some friends who are lost in this movement! thankyou sooo much! <3 in Christ,
        Anbichan15

        • Hi. I appreciate you letting me know. We thank the Lord together that you have been helped because it is only through the Holy Spirit that we can even see the truth! These places are growing faster every day, gaining momentum and support. It is good to get the word out so that others can be helped, pulled from the darkness they have mistaken for the light.

          Blessings in Christ! :)

          • Yes, Yes! definitely! I have about 6 friends heavily involved in this! and they are actually very wise in the word…so I am surprised that this movement has swept them away.
            btw, I was speaking to a friend who is currently attending a Bethel like church and he was telling me that there are two baptisms: one with water and fire??? He said that when a believer is baptized with the “fire”, the holy spirit is activated and speaking in tongues becomes a sign. He said that its avaliable for everyone and that he prayed and asked for it at this bethel like church and received tongues. he said it is the perfect prayer to God. I have issues with this statement. I know there is the gift of tongues, and we have had 2 tongues at my church, but there was always the interpretation of tongues. are there two different types of tongues? :/

            • The Holy Spirit cannot be activated. He is not some force that man can control or a genie that can be commanded. He is God. He is the comforter, the one Christ said he would send to be with us so that we would not be alone. Speaking in tongues is a gift and there are 9 I believe. Tongues is over-rated in our time as Paul stated prophecy was the better gift, and yet, love, the greatest. Quite a contrast to popular claims. Nothing Godly is coming out of Bethel and tongues is not an evidence of anything, as there are false ones, mostly from these groups with their false teaching.

              Take some time and read the scriptures that speak of the gifts, esp tongues. When a tongue is spoken aloud, there must be an interpreter. I wouldn’t say even a valid gift of tongues is a perfect prayer. We don’t have any evidence of Jesus speaking in tongues or praying in tongues, but simply addressing his concerns to the Father. It is an area that believers do not agree so I am just treading lightly, encouraging you to do some research and prayer regarding the topic.

  14. Hi,I really appreciate this site,Although I noticed you wrote in one of the comments that angels only came to men’….. My question is only this was not Jesus own mom visited by an angel????

    • Yes, I should have been more careful in my commenting. In the perspective of those who claim to have had visitations, out of body experiences, trips to heaven, etc. most often they refer to Ezekiel, Daniel, John, etc. who had them. That was my thinking. Mary is a completely different story – different focus. And of course, there were the women at the tomb of Jesus who had conversation with angels.

      Thanks for pointing that out to me. :)

  15. Thank-you! I was out of that perspective a little I guess-thanks for clearing that up! Also,do you have any advice for me,since my family(out of state) especially my brothers are very involved in the ‘word of faith movement’,,actually a few of them are now going to bethel……(Redding,Cal) do you think its ok to e-mail these articles to them,even though most likely they’ll get upset???? my one brother is in the process of moving there next week which will be the 3rd one to go, Very grieving to me………

    • I had to go back and read it for myself. Just think of all the women who are out there claiming supernatural experiences, but the truth is, God chose men for those things, not the women. And He had a purpose for doing so. But charismaniacs think and teach it is their God-given right to have them too, and that we should all be practicing them. They don’t care about the truth, they only want the experience. The sad truth is, the power behind these experiences are given by their gods. For some. For others I believe they are flat out lies to gain the attention of others, fame and fortune, you know.

      This article was a great help to me in overcoming some of the craziness. :)

      Yes, you can send them the links, of course! Unless they are open to hearing the truth, they probably will have a negative response. If involved with the supernatural, joining with Bethel is a good indication, it is a sign they may believe truth is found not only in the word but in the experiences, the presence, the voice, etc. In fact, the bible and bible teaching is not found at Bethel. Recently I heard a portion of BJ speaking and his attitude toward God’s word was quite condescending.

      The most effective “tool” we have to rely on is to show them scripture and how WOF is blatantly outside of it. And of course we pray. :) So many are joining with Bethel and even moving to Redding, like your family members. And at the same time God is bringing others to expose their lies; that is the hope we have that He will bring them out.

      I believe God wants us to speak the truth regardless of the reaction. He is the only one who can shed the light in their darkened minds.

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  17. I came out of the deception about 2 years ago. It is like a ton of bricks has been lifted from my back and I have my mind back. I thought I was going insane.They could not continue to do this without the money. Here is a website that really helped me concerning tithing.
    http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/ I just stopped giving the money. That was the first step I took to get out of this all. And it was like God just took my hand and led me out of it all.
    I also found excellent literature on the Website for Twin Cities Fellowship in Minneapolis/St.Paul area. Google Twin Cities Fellowship. They have Critical Issues articles based on the WORD. I was so afraid of ever going back into any church. The articles really helped me and then I just called the church and spilled my guts about everything. The truth will really set you free. It seems like this demonic spirit has infiltrated every church.You do not have to get out of this alone. I prayed for God to give me the truth and replace every lie with the truth. I make sure I read the Bible. The bible says my mind will be renewed by the Word of God. I don’t trust anybody anymore. I refuse to have any communication or interaction with anyone still in the “movement”. Jesus Christ, the Gospel, the Cross and His Blood is not a “movement”.
    The Bible says there will be a great deception, not a great revival. I now stand on the finished work of the Cross of Christ. The enemy has been defeated. I repented of all idolatry and spiritual adultery. I don’t even have words to describe it all. I just thank God that I am out and that I did not die and go to hell.

    • Thanks Ellen.
      Yes, CIC is a wonderful resource. Praise God He showed you the way out. He never leaves us and since He knows our hearts, He knows who is and who is not His! :)

      Church has become a very dangerous place for bible believing Christians. I’m still working on a deprogramming of sorts, replacing bad theology with truth. It is a process but I love learning! Praise God for His Holy Spirit who guides us in all things.

      Blessings to you. Comment anytime!

  18. after flip flopping back and forth about my lack of discernment – after walking with the Lord having Knowledge of His Holy Spirit – I have come and gone from the “revival type” church for many years. admittedly hungry for Jesus and the truth, it was also coupled with a long time hunger for the supernatural making me open season for any deception. the tug of war was no doubt from the Lord drawing back to my roots in Christ at the foot of the cross. i have always had trouble being focused on the word – I noted your mention of that and bells rang (not literally!) – only in the very early days – did i passionately devour the word as i entered into the joy of praise and worship and prayer after more knowledge of my Lord Jesus. with each new exposure to prophetic things – i fell under a deeper and deeper “spell” of wanting that short cut to hearing a word for ME. wanting to hear God fill me outside of His word. my bad. thank you for a wonderful, timely answer to prayer, i now know how to get out of this web, and back on track…praying for ears that will no longer itch and time in the word to be captivating in and of itself and it used to be. i know where and what to do now …many thanks fellow traveller…my church was heading Bethel-ward. praying for them too. blessings <3

  19. from today’s reading in the word: Psalm 24: 3-5-
    who may ascend into the hill of the LORD?
    and who may stand in His holy place?
    he who has clean hands and a pure heart,
    who has not lifted up his soul to falsehood
    and has not sworn deceitfully.
    he shall receive a blessing from the LORD
    and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

    now that is TRUTH :)

  20. Beautiful scripture, Mary! The Word of God is precious to me. :)

    I’d like to recommend a book (which I am reading now) to all who have posted here: Forgotten God, by Francis Chan. I haven’t finished it, but I’ve read more than half of it, and so far it is Scripturally balanced. He said so many things which have been on my heart lately. It has been very confirming and encouraging to me.

    Some churches TAKE AWAY FROM the Word of God. They deny Scriptures which teach us things which the Lord meant to bring us to maturity in Him, to equip us to be His faithful witnesses, to overcome the wicked one and endure to the end.

    Some churches ADD TO the Word of God. The things which have been exposed here are examples of this.

    BOTH of these are WRONG, and BOTH of them are in trouble with God! Christ Jesus issued a dire warning to anyone who would take away from OR add to His Word.

    M’Kayla, I am very grateful for your blog here. The Lord has used you in a mighty way to solidify some things which had been floating around in my head/heart (I hope that makes sense). Now I see this whole subject much clearer than ever before. I am SO thankful for this!

  21. hello all, blessings in the name of our Lord Jesus, :)
    M’Kayla – would you please make a comment on the following from your experiences in this area:
    “the power of declaration, decreeing of things, speaking to things to cast out….example “cancer” or speaking health to a person” – just for referral purposes not application… of course i found NOTHING FOR US a followers about this in the word. Peace, out Mary <3

    • Hi Mary.

      These quotes have been taken from twisted scripture and the false doctrine that believers have the same power and anointing as Christ and can speak things into existence, can prophesy, decree, declare and what is spoken will come to pass.

      A biggie is to “call the thing as tho it were” Romans 4:17 as if believers had the same power as that of God to cause a thing to happen –
      (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made you) in the sight of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist. (NASB, emphasis mine)

      These things that are decreed, prophesied, etc. are done out of the will of God and at the will of man, no longer trusting God to provide for or care for the dire situation over the one He loves, which He will do. It is also the original lie “to be like God” to claim such power.

      These differences are the basis of my blog.

      Blessings. :)

  22. 1 Jn 2:26-27…these things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. as for you the annointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His annointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

    Hello all, I am joyfully finding the faithfullness of the Lord to cleanse from all unrighteousness (1JN 1:9) …He continues to lead me into all truth with confirmation and His word which is so laden full of all the truth and light we shall ever need.

    Freedom: citizens, commonwealth, community found in strongs # 4174 (N.T. Greek), and liberty from slavery (O.T. Hebrew strongs #2668)…..that would be ME!!!!!!!

  23. i have been reviewing some of the posts and checking out links…mean while all the time – i am noticing the change going on within me. i have been unfettered as it were – and am falling in love with the Lord all over again. He really is all sufficient. i have a long way to go to erase all the lies tucked away that i have planted down deep – but i am trusting and knowing that the Lord will uproot every single one and replace it with HIM in His time. your blog has been used of the Lord to change my life. you are truly being used by God to reach out a helping hand to those who really seek the TRUTH. you are sooooo right. it is hard to come out. the flip flopping is a strong tug. satan doesn’t want your eyes opened. and he does seduce you back in again. but now i don’t care what lies are left – i shall just turn my back on all of it and let the Lord do the cleaning up. blessings and prayers, mary

    • Praise God!

      Ephesians 1
      17…that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come. 22 And he put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things which is the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

      So as we relearn the things which we should have from the beginning, we do well to realize the power and position of the mighty Lord in relation to the deceitfulness of satan, gaining a new perspective in the battle! The Lord is God! :)

  24. Hello M’kayla…blessings :) would you please comment on the following: do we have authority in the Name of Jesus – if so – for what purposes do we rightly use it? and what is “identity” in Christ – in truth – i know a lot has been attached to that one? thank you

  25. so then to pray correctly for healing, etc is to ASK Him. in Jesus Name. Yes? i have been interceeding for years/have many books as you can imagine. is tongues out now then? we therefore, have no right to command things to go/cast out?? and are to trust God who is more than able and ASK Him. was all healing completed at the cross? …by His striped you are healed. do we just need to apply faith to that word? i need unravelling here. who teaches on prayer that is trustworthy – anyone??
    I have the faith In the Lord totally – i don’t want any wrong lies/belief systems to insult Him any more. also is “grace” that is being so widely taught the same grace message from the bible. Yikes there is so many things my mind is flooding with questions. i appreciate all you input. in Christ, Mary

    • Mary, the most important thing to remember right now is that the Lord is going to see you to the end. He will unravel and remove false teachings, replacing them with His truth. He will do it in His time.

      I won’t answer all these questions for you because it is your journey to do so. I will tell you to continue reading, esp your bible, above all, and do the research, use a concordance if you need one. You will learn so much more if you do your own digging. I will point you to John 17 for prayer pointers :) and also in Luke, I think, where the disciples asked Jesus to teach them to pray, the resulting prayer is what we call the Lord’s prayer. If Christ is our Lord and the One we follow, it only stands to reason we would pray the way He prayed, right? Didn’t He come to “show us the way”?

      The bible is an amazing book – one thing leads to something else and something else, and something else and all that comes back together. I found this when I began to research the false teachings I was under and was amazed. So, find these chapters and read them, and read them, and read them again and again. The Holy Spirit is your teacher and will lead you into the truth – He does not speak on His own, but speaks of the Lord Jesus. John 14-16.

      When you have the how- to- pray subject settled, you can move on to the next thing. Take your time and consider also it make take some time to learn, somethings you may not find the answers to right away. One day you will wake up and “tada” there the answer will be. Be patient. :)

  26. thank you M’Kayla – wise counsel. there i am again seeking the short cut. you pointed me back to the word and Him alone, i appreciate that. this is a hard habit to break. the short cutting. i hear what you are saying about one thing leading to another – when you study the word and only the word – that is already happening with more and more things unravelling from the lie deparment. so much just isn’t IN the bible to be found. (using concordance and strong’s as well). i shall take my baby steps and know that the Lord is pleased to have me back at His feet – my prayers for others shall be honored because I trust in HIM and His promises alone. blessings for such a fast response, many thanks mary

    • Mary, one day I sat before the Lord and asked Him to teach me something that did not even exist. His answer to me was the scripture on the fruits of the spirit. —– I laughed it off, told Him that was nice, but did not answer my question. Some time later I realized it answered the question I had only asked within myself, but He knew. It was the beginning of the way OUT. :)

  27. by the fruit of the spirit do you mean the Lord was telling you that we do not exhibit love joy peace patience kindness goodness faith gentleness and self control ? or the gifts -prophecy, tongues, words, healings, etc. or the actual scriptures on them are wrong or misinterpreted. you lost me on that one. baby steps remember, many thanks, mary

    • Manifestations of the body, attributed by men to the work or presence of the Holy Spirit, so in contrast with the fruits: goodness, kindness, self – control – self – control – self – control…
      ….and it wasn’t the first time I questioned all that falling down, drunkenness, electrical sensations as I couldn’t understand why God who loved me was acting so violent toward me. It didn’t start that way, all warm and fuzzy feeling, but grew in intensity, changing each time someone laid hands on me and became quite ugly. Even the “voice” that I was taught was “hearing God” became pushy and angry. All that to say, it was one moment that turned out to be catalyst in coming out of the crazy house. Praise God!

      If I’ve lost you, it’s ok, I meant it as an example and to encourage you that God knows our hearts and our deepest questions even when we don’t voice them to Him, He knows they are there and He answers them.

  28. I totally hear you now. Last weekend was my finale in the land of the manifestations. Sometime back someone explained why some seem to shake/vibrate more in the “presence” of God than others…..I had that ? so I listened…) the answer was they had more experiences and they pile up and make you more sensitive to Him sooner than others. made sense – sorta. at this Bethel patterned church – i had the biggest “electrical” experience of my life. head to toe, inside to outside uncontrollable vibrations. – i thought it was truly God – the power was so strong. i am surprised i didn’t collapse. i was being prayed for by just one girl and was in front of the whole church….now up to last weekend.- i attended a conference on worship – by a worship trainee from bethel school. while worshipping freely in the “spirit” – it was ME who belted out a loud DECLARATION OF WARFARE OVER OUR CITY FOR REVIVAL…. no one else had any prophetic words. i was the star of the day. never did that before. had words – a few ( from the word of God) but nothing like this. that is why i asked about the declaration thing. i am brainwashed here. i have been flip flopping for years with all of this – i know you understand – it builds up over the years for me it has been about 24 since i entered the world of the “gifts” – i was getting grounded in the word when i got on the “magic carpet” ride to short cut land for all the attractions that may or may not come my way. after last week i just had to know once and for all – what i was into. when someone dear to me sent me info about bethel which contained a link to your blog – and now i am on the other side. today i took another step – down to my basement library to oust some materials. not all – just what i am sure of to this point. many many thanks, mary
    prior to this the main difficulty in settling the issue was the to and fro comments about this prophet is real/this one is false. then the comments would be reversed to support the false one and deny the other….confusion abounding. when it became ME that was on the loose – i knew that i had to find out why I WAS EXHIBITING SO MANY MANIFESTATIONS. I HAVE BEEN VERY ILL NOW FOR SOME YEARS WITH BI-POLAR AND FROZEN SHOULDER, DIABETES, AND THYROID. i am praying – the right way for healing – in His time, His will, and His Name. and humbly asking – not demanding. shame on me. blessings to all those who preach TRUTH – may we find each other. In Jesus Name, Amen

    • Mary, so then this particular article would be of great help to you. :)

      What do you mean by “to and fro” comments about a certain prophet? That sounds like the answer Satan gave to the Lord in the first part of Job. ~ ~

      I think part of the confusion comes from the fact that there is so much to sort out. One thing does lead to another, one question raises another, but like I said – all in due time. Breathe. The Lord brought you out of it! What a mighty miracle, huh? :)

  29. Mary and M’Kayla, this has been a fascinating and, IMO, a very productive discussion.

    Mary, you asked excellent questions about things which are clearly written in the Scriptures, are clearly valid for the Church, for believers, today.

    What I believe has happened in some Spirit-filled churches (by that, I mean churches who have not rejected the ministry of the Holy Spirit, including His gifts) is that well-meaning people, the majority of whom I believe started out walking with the Lord, full of zeal and passionate for His kingdom, have unwittingly received false teachings which go beyond the Word of God.

    Truth and error are mixed together in a very deceptive fashion. I believe the enemy of God, who is also the enemy of our souls, has authored this abomination; we know he is the ‘father of lies’. Christ Jesus warned of “wolves in sheep’s clothing” who would appear to be Godly but would in fact sow terrible seeds of destruction among believers, and the apostles confirmed His word in their letters.

    Those who outright reject the ministry of the Holy Spirit TAKE AWAY from the Word of God, while those who go beyond His Word ADD TO it. Christ Jesus had severe words of warning (ref. Revelation) for people who do either one. Both are equally wrong, and both are in grave spiritual danger.

    It is important to me, as a believer who believes the whole counsel of God as it is written, not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak, by rejecting the Scripturally-valid ministry of the Holy Spirit to believers today.

    I’ve been reading Francis Chan’s book Forgotten God, in which he has confirmed these things which had been stirring in my spirit for quite some time. I highly recommend it; it is sold at Amazon, and I was able to check it out through my local library.

    It seems to me that the Lord God is calling many believers today back to Himself, back to the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, away from things which are not consistent with His Word or His Spirit, which would ultimately destroy our very souls. Praise God for His faithfulness to His children! :)

    • Claire, I don’t agree with many things from Strom and have edited your recommendations of his products from your comments. He was a great help to me in recognizing the false prophetic in the early days of my research. Since then other things I heard him say on his site after that gave way for me to believe he may be somewhat still operating in it. As far as Kundalini, (also could be Reiki or Chi as both claim healing power upon touch) the information is readily available aside from his site and have been discussed here on my blog quite a bit.

      The most important point is not in determining whether the power is Kundalini, or even Reiki or Chi, or how that power manifests in a human, but in determining if that power comes from God. We don’t find evidence of it in the bible. Proper discernment is in the knowledge of who God is and how He operates through the Holy Spirit, which is done through a thorough study of His word.

  30. Praise God Mary that He has set you free! I have a friend who is in the same place you just got out of and can’t believe that God would allow her to feel these things if it weren’t Him. She trusts Jesus sooo much and says that if you use the name “Jesus” that you should have no fear of being deceived. She won’t listen to me when I suggest otherwise. Besides reading the Bible, did you hear that small still voice saying it wasn’t God?

    Erin

  31. oddly enough I never heard that still small voice – and I SOOOO LONGED to hear the voice of the Lord tell me what to do. I have many times heard that voice of the Lord confirming this is the way walk ye in it….and I was in much prayer inquiring if He was in this “movement” even a little bit. SILENCE>>>> but what did occur what ME never be content with the fact that He what SILENT on the matter – it drove me nutty in fact. hence that flip flopping – I was in and then I was out again. – I bought and read books, attended meeting – prophetic ones – then I retreated again and went into hibernation. I was restless and did NOT HAVE THE PEACE WHICH PASSES ALL UNDERSTANDING and mostly I CRAVED ASSURANCE FROM HIM THAT I WAS NOT BEING LEFT OUT OF A GENUINE MOVE OF HIM PERSONAL FOR ME. Being such a hungry believer and not really TRUSTING IN JUST HIS BIBLE TO FEED ME – I CHASED AFTER THE MAGIC.
    In answer to your question I now have a love for His word – He does meet me there – confirming every time i flip to anywhere – He is there saying I AM HERE AND I LOVE YOU YOU NEED NOTHING ELSE I AM SUFFICIENT AND I ALONE WILL TEACH YOU. See1 jOHN 2 :26 AND 27 for example…amazing isn’t it under the recent circumstances. How faithful is that!! It was a divine rescue to be sure…it was that nagging “never knowing for sure” that had me constantly asking and listening for an answer that gave me Peace. thank you for your comment to mine Erin – your friend is now on my intercession list – keep me posted!!! blessings on the Narrow Road, Mary and also…one more thing – I used to think without all the manifestations those “others” were in denial, or had a wall up refusing to let freedom allow them to be open to a new thing. I am still a believer in gifts – just under the control of the Holy Spirit….hmmmm – and that takes discernment which is also a gift of God – I am still listening for direction.

  32. to one and all on the blog! this indeed is one of the greatest miracles i have ever personally experienced!! i have learned so much about the Lord and the trinity expressed throughout this personal deliverance for me!!! He never wastes a thing – does He?! i have such a Peace and sense of freedom – and am settled into a joy of reading the word – in study and meditation enjoying ferreting out the words true meanings in my Strong’s concordance and just basking in meditation of His lovingkindness. in a nice BALANCED meal bites at a time. I am breathing gently now M’Kayla and resting In Jesus. loving Him afresh and back on the Narrow Path. What a wonderful God we serve indeed!!! Mary

  33. Hi Claire….funny you mention that – “don’t throw the baby out with the bath water” was a repeatative phrase i kept running through my mind. in the stew of the mix – there is good from the Holy Spirit and it shall remain with solid roots – I had expressed some gifts and they were deep blessings in the church and to people I prayed with. I had visions that also were an expression of God’s love and touched those in need – including myself. they were limited and never something i could “call up” they were always a product of time with the Lord usually when I went “one to one” with Him intimately in quiet time – even if it was in corporate worship or a prayer meeting. Those I still cherish – Mary ….those were “my baby moments”.

  34. Day By Day By Grace
    Bob Hoekstra
    September 5, 2011
    More on David and the Lord’s Lovingkindness
    How precious is Your lovingkindness, O God! Therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of Your wings. (Psalm 36:7)
    Lovingkindness is one of the terms in the Old Testament that has profound spiritual kinship with the New Testament term, grace. Lovingkindness speaks of God’s zealous love for His people. This love includes His mercy to hold back the judgment we deserve, as well as His goodness to pour out all that we need. David’s heart for God’s grace can be seen in the way he cherished the Lord’s lovingkindness. “How precious is Your lovingkindness, O God!” In a series of verses over a few more days, we will see why David greatly valued God’s lovingkindness. It involved the far-reaching implications of the Lord’s dealing with us according to His lovingkindness.

    The first implication that David refers to here is God’s protection. “Therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of Your wings.” When people consider God’s lovingkindness, they are encouraged by His desire to shelter them. Thus, they draw near in faith to be safeguarded by His merciful care. “Be merciful to me, O God, be merciful to me! For my soul trusts in You; And in the shadow of Your wings I will make my refuge, until these calamities have passed by” (Psalm 57:1). Like a devoted bird guarding its young, the Lord displays His lovingkindness in keeping those who trust in Him.

    Jesus expressed His desire to care for people in this intimate fashion, even though they might deserve the opposite. “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!” (Luke 13:34). David was one who was willing to be gathered under the loving wings of God’s care. “Keep me as the apple of Your eye; Hide me under the shadow of Your wings, from the wicked who oppress me, From my deadly enemies who surround me” (Psalm 17:8-9). What joy this brings to those who flee to the Lord’s lovingkindness. “Because You have been my help, Therefore in the shadow of Your wings I will rejoice” (Psalm 63:7).

    Dear Lord, forgive me for the times I have been unwilling to come to You for Your lovingkindness. I repent of those times when I neglected, or even refused, to humbly place my hope in Your protecting care. How foolish I was. Lord, every time I have come to You, joy has eventually filled my heart. Please nurture in me a heart that consistently relies on Your precious lovingkindness, Amen.

    M’Kayla….this was my online devotional today – it is so appropriate to the message of this blog and what the Lord is doing in my life by example – i have posted it here for your consideration, blessings mary.

  35. The most important point is not in determining whether the power is Kundalini, or even Reiki or Chi, or how that power manifests in a human, but in determining if that power comes from God. We don’t find evidence of it in the bible. Proper discernment is in the knowledge of who God is and how He operates through the Holy Spirit, which is done through a thorough study of His word.

    M’Kayla, I did not know you were familiar with Andrew Strom. I have found his expose’ and warnings via e-mail to be helpful, and only sought to pass that help along. ITA with what you have said here. AFAIK, I haven’t said or even inferred otherwise. Indeed, the Holy Spirit will never contradict the Bible, which is the Word of God.

    Many blessings to you and everyone else here! :)

  36. I have a friend who is in the same place you just got out of and can’t believe that God would allow her to feel these things if it weren’t Him. She trusts Jesus sooo much and says that if you use the name “Jesus” that you should have no fear of being deceived. She won’t listen to me when I suggest otherwise. Besides reading the Bible, did you hear that small still voice saying it wasn’t God?

    Erin, I have seen this happen in several ways in recent years. It reminds me of the warning Paul gave about believing in “another” Jesus (not the only begotten Son of God) and believing “another” gospel (not the one Christ Jesus taught). I’m sorry I don’t remember that Scripture reference; perhaps someone else can post it, or you may find it by googling “another Jesus, another gospel”.

    I read a book several years ago called The Beautiful Side of Evil, by Johanna Michaelson. In it she tells of her life, of her fascination with the occult from a young age, of her involvement in “supernatural healing” (which involved “supernatural sugeries”) which she observed as a young adult. She even spoke of “Jesus” coming to her in visions. But as time went on, that vision of “Jesus” would change to a demonic form as it got closer to her. Needless to say, this was quite frightening. I highly recommend that book, with one caveat: Make sure you read it all the way to the end, in order to get the whole picture of what she learned.

    Christ Jesus said, “My sheep know my voice, and a stranger they will not follow.” He also said that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth and would lead us into all Truth. It is important to remember that Jesus IS the Word of God (John 1:1), that the Holy Spirit will never contradict, take away from, or go beyond what the Lord God revealed to the faithful men who received and recorded His Word. As the Holy Spirit ministers to us and we abide in Him, His wisdom, knowledge, understanding, perception, and insight protect us from error and keep us strong and secure in His grace and strength. The Armor of God (ref. Ephesians 6) is very important in this day and age. As the Lord said there, He enables us to stand against the wiles of the devil, to stand in the evil day, and, having done all, to STAND. :)

    • 2 Cor. 11:3-4 “But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted– you may well put up with it.

  37. I am still a believer in gifts – just under the control of the Holy Spirit….hmmmm – and that takes discernment which is also a gift of God – I am still listening for direction.

    i have such a Peace and sense of freedom – and am settled into a joy of reading the word – in study and meditation enjoying ferreting out the words true meanings in my Strong’s concordance and just basking in meditation of His lovingkindness. in a nice BALANCED meal bites at a time. I am breathing gently now M’Kayla and resting In Jesus. loving Him afresh and back on the Narrow Path.

    Mary, I find your first statement above to be quite profound. Discernment is indeed one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit! He is God, and He will lead us into all Truth.

    I can totally identify with the last paragraph here; God is so good! His peace truly passes all understanding and His joy is unspeakable and full of glory. He is always, always faithful to His children! :)

  38. HI. This is Ellen and I wrote back on August 27. Been reading all the things people are writing. Sounds so spiritual. Why doesn’t anyone say it like it is. The whole charismatic prophetic thing is pure evilness and satanic. I started to step out of this all about 2 years ago. I look back at it all and it is about power,being powerful, demons, fear, control, fasting, praying, money, books, CD’s, music, and experience. Pure delusion. One day I just asked myself…What is the gospel of Jesus Christ? What could I tell my so called “unsaved” friends or anyone. I had no answer. No one ever could or would tell me. Years passed of always waiting for a “break through”. Being on the “cutting edge”. Break through to what? Cutting edge of what I now say. It is all an illusion. Like the emperor who wore no clothes. Mind control. Spiritual abuse. Fueled by the belief of lies. I just went to church and meetings and conferences and believed I was cursed if I did not tithe. And never got healed and went into a clinical depression. Constant focus on the devil. All fear based. And I was always not doing enough or lacking faith and thus cursed. Circular reasoning. No way out. This whole thing had me convinced that there are demons everywhere and that I was to be walking around in some supernatural realm all the time. I was to serve God and live like this. Wait for my reward in heaven when I die. Things were so bad in my life I figured I would be better off dead then this so called Christianity. Bizarre. Life happens. Everything that happens in my daily life is not some message from God or omen that has some deep spiritual meaning or an attack of the devil. No different than being on drugs or booze and not in reality. They told me that in the garden when Adam and Eve disobeyed and ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that the issue was obedience. And that I had to be in obedience to the pastor and be under his authority or covering so I was safe and protected from the devil. It was twisting scripture as a way for them to get my money, instill fear, make themselves into God. and obey them no matter what. I was just a pawn in their game to benefit themselves while they claim to be leading me. I am covered by the Blood of the Lamb and that is what keeps me covered and delivered. Our God is a bloody God and He satisfied His own laws with the Blood of His Son. I think this whole charismatic prophetic thing IS eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Witchcraft. Forbidden by God. I kept on thinking that I don’t have enough faith. Well…what was I supposed to believe and have faith in? What does it mean to have “faith in Jesus”. Everyone had a different “experience”. That’s basically all I ever heard when I went to church. Some evangelist, or speaker, or prophet, or self proclaimed “somebody” showed up and talked about their previous “experience” at some other meeting. Then we lined up, they prayed, we fell over. So what. What were the fruits. I lost my mind and my life is shattered. One day I just decided that life could not get any worse than it was and if God was going to send down fire and brimstone and curse or kill me if I quit going there and giving them money and participating in this all…well so be it. Whatever I was supposed to be getting I just could not get it and figured it was better to be dead anyway than live and feel and think the way I was. And I walked out. I am not dead, my mind is coming back, my body is not twitching any more, the tears and fear are going away, the extreme emotional outbursts and anger are going away. And I do not have to worry about my “friend” who are still in it. The Holy Spirit will lead them. I have figured out that the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ is that I am totally incapable of escaping the wrath of God except through the finished work of the Cross of Calvary. End of story. God wants me to believe that. By faith. No more trying to hear from God. He has spoken to us by His Son. And believe the record that has been given of His Son. There are no new apostles. Only the original. They were eye witnesses. These “super apostle” are insane. Egotisical nutcases in need of constant devotion. And money. They have no job skills. The antichrist who has set himself up in the temple of God claiming to be the Christ. The prophets of old said a savior would come and it happened. Jesus said He finished the work His father gave Him to do. My job is to believe in the work He did. Thanks. Not even sure why I am writing. I have been duped. At least I am not living the lie. Advice for anyone who has been in this….GET OUT NOW. It is a lie from the pit of hell. Revelation 18:4 “Come out of her…….” God cannot lie. His sheep will hear His voice.

    • Ellen,

      I have figured out that the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ is that I am totally incapable of escaping the wrath of God except through the finished work of the Cross of Calvary. End of story.

      Amen.

      Thank you for such a pure response. I agree with you all the way. This so called movement is nothing but demonic, God is not in it, God does not call people to remain in it to help save others. It is the Holy Spirit who reveals truth to the people of God. We are called out, to be separate from the world and worldly things. That is part of the problem as our churches have been taken over by the flesh, earthly desires and a need to have a name and be famous. It’s all crap. All the so called prophets and teachers that teach gnostic, pagan ways are nothing but spokespeople for satan himself. Long ago I made a connection, and this may be out of context, in meaning, but Jesus spoke of the abomination of desolation, and tho this refers of a time yet to come in the temple built for God, it has already happened in the temple of man’s spirits. These, who peddle this other jesus, this other gospel are nothing but an abomination.

      Thanks.

  39. I AM SORRY IF I OVER SPIRITUALIZED ANY OF MY COMMENTS AND IN SO DOING BYPASSED THE FACTS. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS EYE OPENING COMMENT YOU ARE RIGHT ON I APPRECIATE THIS POST VERY MUCH . I HAVE SINCE ALSO COME TO THIS POINT MYSELF AND AM NOW PRAYING FOR FAMILY AND FRIENDS TO BE AWAKENED TO THE NEED OF JESUS AND WHAT THE CONSEQUENCES TRULY SHALL BE. ETERNAL PUNISHMENT. PERHAPS THIS IS OUR NEXT TOPIC. IT IS CERTAINLY MINE. THIS IS A GOOD INDICATION OF WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE STRAY/ARE SEDUCED FROM THE TRUTH OF THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST. (CAPS NOT INDICATIVE OF ANGER – JUST AN EASIER READ FOR ME,) BLESSINGS AND TY , MARY

  40. Elllen, bless you dear sister…you have an amazing well expressed testimony here. you articulated the “movement” precisely and with your own experiences. we all have a story to tell – some more intense than others. i too went into depression. the Holy Spirit is so very faithful to rescue us from deception and give discernment to be guide into all TRUTH. I shall include you in my prayers as we are all being restored to health in Jesus. the Blood is that miraculous substance – wherein we can safely place our faith and leave it there. We are in the palm of His hand. Help us Lord to share Your truth is wisdom and bear good fruits for Your Glory. Amen

  41. this is a historical thing – other messages, other Jesus-es. God was faithful to deliver the seekers of truth then, and still is doing that today. we are all a clear result of that. Bless the Lord ! He really does give sight to the blind!! Amen.

  42. 2 Cor. 11:3-4 “But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted– you may well put up with it.

    Thank you, M’Kayla, for posting these verses! Yes, they are the very ones which were in my mind.

    This Scripture shows us that not only is it true that “another Jesus” and “a different gospel” are preached today (in many forms, not just the ones referenced in your blog), but, yes, a different spirit also pervades many churches today — a spirit who is not the Holy Spirit.

    Thanks be to our Father who has redeemed us, who has delivered us out of darkness into His marvelous light, HE IS ABLE to keep us, to protect us from the wicked one, to sanctify us through His truth. He enables us to overcome the wicked one and endure to the end. :)

  43. Claire, there is nothing new under the sun. What existed in the garden, exists today.

    Oh yes, I am aware of that fact. Often when I’m reading things which dispute the Word of God, the serpent’s original phrase — Hath God said…? — comes to mind.

    • I’ve heard it said that the things we see going on now existed in the early church – the false prophetic, the wild manifestations and of course, the false doctrine. So, even to some who are just becoming aware of the apostasy, it isn’t as new as we would think. I was surprised to hear these things myself.

  44. Ellen, I see that Andrew Murray’s books are listed at your second link in your post which mentioned Jessie Penn-Lewis.

    I haven’t read all of Andrew Murray’s book (only a few), but the ones I’ve read have been major blessings in my life. I don’t know of any other author whose writings are more strongly based on the pure Word of God.

    One book I didn’t see on that list is titled How to Lead Your Child to Christ (or maybe Leading Your Child to Christ). The Lord used that little book in a mighty way to revolutionize my life! :)

  45. And that I had to be in obedience to the pastor and be under his authority or covering so I was safe and protected from the devil. It was twisting scripture as a way for them to get my money, instill fear, make themselves into God. and obey them no matter what.

    Ellen, my heart goes out to you, about everything you related in your post, including this.

    I was part of a church for years which was heavily aligned with a parachurch organization (not Charismatic, though) which had this same twisted teaching on Authority — I capitalize that word because it was emphasized so heavily in every single sermon I ever heard there.

    IIRC, that particular organization began more than 40 years ago and is still going today, even though some serious things happened among its leadership which should have alerted believers to its problems. Many conservative churches and believers (again, not Charismatic at all) are heavily aligned with this movement today. It is very sad to me.

    • …safe and protected from the devil… by human means? Christ is the head over all principality and power, making spectacles of them, disarming them, triumphing over them by the power of the cross. No man can match that, how dare they say! (Col 2:10-15, Eph 1:21)

  46. …safe and protected from the devil…by human means? Christ is the head over all principality and power, making spectacles of them, disarming them, triumphing over them by the power of the cross. No man can match that, how dare they say! (Col 2:10-15, Eph 1:21)

    In answer to your question, M’Kayla — oh YES. You have to understand that Scriptures were twisted and misused to give that interpretation. I was heavily influenced by that non-charismatic parachurch organization for almost 20 years, from the very year I was born again! Oh how I thank my Heavenly Father for being true to His Word and faithful to me by leading me by His Spirit into all truth — the truth which sets His people free. Hallelujah!!!

    The Scripture you quoted is one of my VERY favorites! That was a precious gift to me this evening, my dear sister. May God richly bless you. :)

  47. Just wondering, but what would you say is the power that Paul was talking about when he talked of people having a form of godliness but no power? (2 Tim 3:5) How is the Christian life lived out here in the power of the Spirit? Can we do greater things than Jesus did (John 14:12)? What were the things he expected us to keep doing like He was doing? It certainly isnt about the miracles. By no means. But is it a logical extension to think that as you pursue Jesus that the miracles are kindof a by product of being near Him and living in the power of the Spirit like He said too? There is always a need to be careful and consider what the Truth is. I certainly do not want to be deceived. But I also want to live the life that God has called us too. Im not so sure that a life of miracles isnt what is supposed to be the normal Christian life. I would also say that persecution is certainly part of the normal Christian life as well. The danger with all of this is that we do not want to get into a place where we deny it because we don’t understand it. (Jude 10) If we can fully understand and grasp everything in our relationship with God then we are off as well because His ways are higher than our ways. Dont get spooked just because you dont understand it. Are there people who try to exploit this line of thinking? Of course. And so we must be careful with who we go to. But there are people who exploit all lines of Christianity. Are we to say that because there is no dancing or outright healing in Baptist churches (at least the ones Ive gone too) that all their pastors are godly and there is no evil motive in any of them? Well, given the amount of church splits, I dont think so. What exactly is it about the supernatural that is so scary? Its because we cant explain it and control it. Ironically, maybe a denial or supression of the supernatural is a form of control rather than the other way around. Im still thinking on this subject. I have just recently been starting to look into this. I am trying not to think I have God all figured out though. Im trying not to keep Him in my box.

    • Nate,
      This article addresses physical manifestations that come from what we believe are demonic spirits. It was written to help people focus completely on the word. It has nothing to do with denying the power of God.

      God in a box. I’ve been hearing that since the 70′s. Just think how silly it sounds, as if God could be kept from doing anything! Really! He cannot. I am glad that you are trying to find the truth and I hope you don’t stop looking at the word of God with great humility, with great sincerity.

      Where did you get the idea that Jesus said we would do greater things than He? It isn’t written in the bible. Ask yourself if you truly believe you can perform greater things than God. If you answer yes to that question you have sided with Satan whose goal was to ascend the throne of the Most High God. Be careful.

      John 14:12 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believers in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

      Read the chapter. What is Jesus teaching His disciples? Then consider the Acts of the Apostles later on. Many were saved, which indeed is the greater work than healing or feeding multitudes. It is the true work of the cross. There is a distinctive difference in the way you have been shown this scripture and what Jesus actually said. Please also consider in 15: 20 He told them no servant is greater than his Master.

      Miracles take place as God wills, when He wills, if He wills. My following Christ will not create an atmosphere for miracles to come into being. If living a life of miracles is what Christians were called to, we would be seeing them all over the place, every minute. To doubt that truth is to indeed “put God in a box”. Research your bible. Christ had one purpose and that was to die in our place for the forgiveness of sins so that we could have eternal life. That is the biggest most important calling a Christian has – to preach the gospel.

      You think I am spooked or that I am trying to control something I cannot? Have you read A Trip in Charismania? I came out of these teachings and mindsets that you are now defending. It has nothing to do with fear, except a fear of God. Believe me, these well spoken, well trained to deceive teachers you follow have nothing in Christ. They are leading you to another god. You quoted Jude 10 which has to do with false teachers. How fitting.

      Everything you need to know is written in the bible. If you are born again you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to teach you. Spend some time alone with serious study and ask the Lord for the truth. He will show it to you.

      Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

  48. Interesting Paul never once spoke of these type manifestations in Fact he clearly said as believers “We are delivered out of satan’s domain and translated into the Kingdom of God’s Dear Son” (Col.1:13). Don’t deal our warfare is fought from a position of victory already won and accomplished for us IN Christ.

  49. regarding the above post…fascinating. we do fight from a position of victory – putting on the armor of Ephesians and above all standing in the Truth of the finished work of Cross. we tend to put so much emphasis on the “things” we can play with and do in the spiritual realm. it is that same old allure with the supernatural that appeals to so many. power. power. and more power… learning to trust in the Word of God and the instructions to rest in Him, trust in Him and use the words of the bible as our weapon of warfare along with the knowledge of who we are in Him gives us all the solid ground we ever need for battle. this life is a journey – one of learning and growth – and of faith in the one who bought us with His blood. your post is right on. IN Christ for sure. blessings mary

  50. M’Kayla, the church I just left had visitations from “angels”. One of the women there, the office help, said she heard “angels” voices. Another woman would say during worship that “angels were flying over our heads” while the women worshiped. Once I couldn’t sing. I had this terrible cough that started very abruptly and every time I opened my mouth to sing, I would have a coughing fit. I went outside and a woman followed me. She said the Lord had told her that I was being bothered by a demon to keep me from worshiping, so she prayed in tongues over me. Then I was fine. Also, this same woman would come over to my house and say she saw demons in my son’s room and visions of serpents trying to get into my house. She also claims to be a prophetess. I can’t find much on these topics. She has been involved with this women’s ministry for over five years now. The lead pastor follows closely to Bill Johnson of Bethel in Redding. Anyway, I just want to know if these could be manifestations from God or are maybe something else? How can I learn to discern these things? Thanks for any direction. You’ve been a huge blessing to me.

    • Michelle, I believe it is more than safe to say these supposed visions and things are false. Either the people receive information from another spirit or they make them up, seeing nothing at all. The reason why, firstly, their doctrine is flat out garbage and will not stand up under the scrutiny of the word of God, secondly, the focus is on the supernatural, the unseen which brings attention to who they are, rather than on Christ, repentance and proper doctrine. On the other hand, I do believe these demons act in cahoots causing you to cough and causing you to stop. It isn’t so far fetched to understand they can influence us, esp when we are in the wrong environment such as this one. I also don’t find reason to believe from scripture that we pray in tongues in such a manner; hers being a false tongue. A place for study is needed there. The new age reports hearing singing voices and other sounds as does a Kundalini awakening. But Christian? Nope.

      It can be hard in the beginning, but a good study on discernment will help greatly. I’ve been doing one of my own with a friend that I will be posting shortly. In the meantime you will be greatly helped in doing a word study of your own using resources from Strong’s Hebrew and Greek to get you started in discernment. :)

  51. M’Kayla, I believe this was the Scripture to which Nate referred in his post:

    “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. John 14:12

    You already know that I have concerns about adding to the Word what is not written therein. I am equally concerned about churches and leaders who deny what IS in the Word, thereby (perhaps unwittingly; God knows) encouraging them to live in unbelief and defeat. Personally, I didn’t see anything unBiblical in Nate’s post and I thought he made some Scripturally-valid points. At the same time, I would not want anyone to take what he (or anyone) says and run with it to an extreme not supported by the Lord Himself.

    As to Michelle’s post, the Word of God warns about the worship of angels. The Lord even said that Satan himself can manifest as an angel of light. The Lord also spoke of believers “entertaining angels unaware” — IOW, this means that these believers will not realize they are in the presence of angels. Todd Bentley’s extreme error (IMHO) seen in his teaching which he said came from an angel named Emma, followed by abusive (even physically-abusive) BAM! “deliverance” was a serious thing, and I was shocked and grieved by the number of professing Christians who were completely deceived by that (including a number of self-proclaimed and “ordained” prophets).

    At the same time, I do not see any Scripture which precludes us from praying in the Spirit, either alone or in the presence of others.

    I have a Strong’s concordance; had always heard it was the best, very comprehensive, had always heard that it referenced every word in the Bible. However, neither the word “devil” nor “demon” is in it. This totally shocked me, and definitely limits one’s ability to use that concordance in a thorough study of spiritual warfare.

    A closing thought: The Word of God is clear that the Holy Spirit gives gifts to believers “severally, as He will”. It is clear that not all believers will receive every gift. “Discerning of spirits” is one of those gifts, so it seems clear that all believers will not have that gift of discernment. IMHO, the very best way to be prepared for the spiritual warfare which is so strong these days, to keep from being deceived by anti-Christ spirits which have gone out into the world, is to read, study, and meditate on the Word of God under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit. Christ Jesus said He is the Spirit of Truth and will lead us into all Truth.

    Truly, we see through a glass darkly (I Cor. 13). None of us sees it all or knows it all. This is why the true Church is the Body of Christ — we all need each other. The eye needs the ear, the hand needs the leg, etc. The Lord has told us how important it is not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together, for this purpose.

    • Claire there is quite a bit wrong with his post, which was addressed. I won’t tolerate protection of Bill Johnson who clearly has no desire to know the truth and is leading so many astray. The misuse or misapplication of the scripture in John is a perfect example. It is carved out of its context and used to suggest we have greater power than Christ. This is heresy.

      My Strong’s is KJV and lists “devil and devils”. Demon is not listed because the KJV uses the word devil, not demon. You may want to check with bible version your copy of Strong’s is written for because if a certain word is not in that bible version it will not appear in the corresponding Strong’s edition either.

      Another great resource is Vine’s Expository Dictionary!

      The Lord gives to each the gifts as He wills. He could very well give a gift to one and not the other, but then give it temporarily as needed and necessary for that moment or situation. Again, this is an area that I am currently studying. If “praying in the spirit” you are referring to “tongues”, the bible is clear on the need for an interpreter if done so in the hearing of others. We are not to assemble with pastors, teachers and other believers who do not hold to sound doctrine. Many people have found themselves without an assembly because of the exploding apostasy. When it comes to these subjects, careful study and scrutiny of the word is imperative.

    • Claire, it seems we are in a constant debate no matter what is said. I’ve deleted your last two comments. Maybe this is not the blog for you to continue posting.

  52. regarding Strong’s as a study tool… I use it myself and find it so helpful with root words and the meanings for so many words we just assume we know the meaning to. not having the words devil and demon – is an eye opener, but rather than turning me away from a help with words in Hebrew and Greek for translating the meanings – I am rather inclined to question “deliverance” techniques instead. speaking to “demons of this and that title” and playing the power card – is what got me into this “movement” in the first place. i was an admitted “power hungry” supernatural seeker – wanted it all to be under the banner of God. unfortunately it isn’t so. the cross and Christ’s finished work has defused the need for me to add my “powers” to any secret warfare and give me that thrill. now that I can humbly admit that – I am able to stand safely under the banner of the Love of God and know that He indeed delivers without my help. Letting go of my super hero status was a hard thing – yet coming to know what the Lord sees in me is a wonderful revelation that brings joy to every day. blessings to all Mary

  53. just saw this post M’Kayla regarding Strong’s ommision for demons. i should check my copy. (wanted to say a thank you for your kind reply to my letter “on the side” – it was very helpful indeed.) i have settle into my new state of being “outside ” of the movement. i am so much calmer and miss NOTHING i left behind. my former church is advertising an event called ” a night of wild worship” – good grief :(
    i left not a moment to soon. i am praying for my former church friends to have an “awakening” of the right kind and see the truth-
    i am reading a lovely book by Tozer called “the knowledge of the Holy” – for the second time. it really puts into perspective the loss we have faced by flippantly treating the Lord so far beneath the reality of who He is. although we cannot fathom the depths of the Lord’s beauty – He has allowed us to know Him by some of His glorious attributes. when compared to the god – revealed in my past churches – there is two different sources being worshipped. sad and heartbreaking.
    as someone who sees the need for intercession – i shall keep this “movement” at the forefront of prayer and trust the Lord to deliver them as He delivered me. blessing M’Kayla and friends, Mary

    • Thanks the the update Mary! :)

      I want to clarify on my Strong’s comment for everyone so that we don’t get confused. The copy of Strong’s I use was created for the KJV. I got it at a reduced rate and so was part of my decision to buy it. My bible is a New King James and I do notice differences, mostly with the form of the word. This was my first clue when it was mentioned the word “demon” was omitted. I checked the Strong’s for “demons” and didn’t find it. But I didn’t think this was error as much as it was reasoning. Then I noticed a verse that referred to casting out of demons, and when I checked, the word was “devils”. I then ran a check for “demons” in the KJV using an on line bible program and the word was not found. That is how I came to the conclusion that Strong’s had not omitted the word, just used a different one. :)

  54. Hi! Thanks for this website! Now, I want to start with saying that I am not catolic, but today when I was on the internet I found these websites (you don’t need to read it all, but look at what it is):

    http://www.a-spiritual-journey-of-healing.com/holy-spirit-prayer.html
    http://carolynspreciousmemories.com/Spiritual/FlowThroughMeHolySpirit.html
    http://www.exceedingfaith.org/free-articles/holy-spirit/move-of-holy-spirit-article.html
    http://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=1404

    What do you think about this, according to your experiences? I mean all the “flowing”.

    Thanks.

    • Swed, these are examples of false teaching in regards to prayer and the Holy Spirit. I am sure they are every bit as dangerous as the teachings passed around in charismania. The bible does not teach us to pray to the Holy Spirit. His power and indwelling is dependent upon our repentance and His function is to guide believers into truth, revealing Jesus Christ, convicting the word of sin, etc., as described in the book of John. Anyone who follows the teachings at the links you provided will be following after false teaching/teachers, possibly invoking a spirit guide.

  55. Hi M’Kayla. I was involved in the “Word Of Faith” movement for about 25 years and just learned that their origins are very Masonic(Rooted in Freemasonry). Bishop Keith Butler(Former Bishop of Word of Faith International Christian Center in Southfield, Michigan) was my Pastor/Bishop and has now relinquished all responsibilities to his son Pastor Andre Butler.
    I love being a part of Word of Faith although I had been snubbed by Bishop Butler and Pastor Andre on more than one occasion. I never quite felt like I belonged there and as if their standards were way too high for me to keep up with, yet I stayed and did my best to walk in love with them and serve the Lord. The Lord began instructing me to leave in the middle and sometimes at the beginning of messages and led me to stop taking notes! Then one Sunday he led me to leave and told me NEVER go back there! After my departure the Lord reminded me that up until 1995 we used to have all our Easter Sunday services at MASONIC Temple of Detroit! I then learned that Kenneth E. Hagin(Bishop Butler’s mentor) was a 33rd Degree Freemason who used to steal his seromons form E.W. Kenyon. I was devastated. I was wondering if you have any info about Hagin, Butler or the Word of Faith MOVEMENT if you could please reveal it. So many under the WOF ministries are still being deceived! It’s time they woke up before things get really out of hand.

    Things began to get super fishy for me about June of this year. I noticed that I could no longer bear up under the ministry of Pastor Andre as he began seemingly twisiting scripture out of context and telling the congreagation that the job losses we experienced were due to our own laziness, unrighteousness and lack of faith in God’s promises. I knew that he DID NOT KNOW my personal situation and that he was speaking on things he was not familiar with. He was practically born with a silver spoon in his mouth and has NEVER KNOWN & NEVER WILL know a day of unemployment. His father has run several megachurches for the past few decades.

  56. Continued.. So I really did not appreciate these allegations. Believe me, leaving what had been my home church for so laong was quite difficult and I checked my spiriti several times to make sure I was not being out of order and rebeliious. Thing is, I understand the word now better than I did under Bishop and Pastor Butler’s ministries and have been in the word more than ever getiing the revelations for myself. They have bothe preached quite a lot of scriptures out of context. They are rich and have NO job programs to help the members who have been out of work and Bishop Butler was once witnessed by a relative of mine throwing someone out of his office after she explained that she’d lost her job and had no food! He really needs to be outed more. This is not fair to the church. This is the kind of thing that Paul warned his churches about. We are living in the era of the false prophet/teacher/evangelist/apostle!

    • Hi Lakeya M.

      I am glad you are out of WOF. I know some things about Ken Hagin and still have his books that I took while studying through Rhema. What kind of information are you looking for regarding him and WOF?

      What kind of connections did you find between WOF and Freemasonry?

      Thanks for your comment. I do believe the Lord is calling people out! :)

  57. Dear M’Kayla. I do appreciate that you have invested much time in writing your messages but could you please condense for me whether you believe God works in our lives in Supernatural ways today and if so how and if not why not ?

    Christian Love Anne.

    • Yes, I do believe there is a supernatural work of God, but I believe more in His word than I do in experience. Many believers have been mislead and have turned that around trusting in experience and the word of man over the word of God. Anyone can have a supernatural experience which is proved by the many books and stories passed around in our society. We need to compare the experience with the teachings of the bible, even with great scrutiny if need be – as “Bereans”. The supernatural events found in Daniel, Ezekiel, Acts, Revelation, for instance, were performed upon the will of God for a specific purpose which caused people to respond, usually in repentance. When we take the time and have the desire to see the truth the Holy Spirit leads us to it. Those of us who would rather have the experience and think God is still revealing new truth through those experiences -not written in the word- will find themselves standing before the Lord as judge one day, not as savior. It is that serious.

      I write this blog because the Lord brought me out of great false teaching taught throughout the prophetic movement, signs and wonders, dream interpretation, and healing rooms. There is a great need for Christians throughout the world to begin taking our faith more seriously and to stop making excusing for the many leaders, teachers, pastors and prophets who spread false doctrine, ideas rooted in the occult and eastern religions. The n.t. is quite clear on how we are to handle those who bring a different jesus or another gospel.

  58. Dear M’Kayla, thank you for responding to my question I do intend to read more of what you have written previously but needed assurance that I was not understanding wrongly what I had already read. Much of what you said to me personally I agree with and have even spoken of its Truth to others but we have to be very careful we don’t throw the baby out with the bath water, experience is also important as the Scriptures show us and so are our emotions and feelings.

    Jesus experienced emotions but as he knew the heart of man and that they were mostly walking dead and that His own people would reject Him and all that was to come, this would have caused Him great grief as He Loved all Mankind, it was not His will that any perish the same as His Fathers. Jesus Christ was known as man of sorrows and acquainted with grief and although like us He would have been able to laugh it is not recorded that He did when He was on earth but He did weep and Loved deeply.

    I agree with you M’Kayla our foundation must always be the inspired written word but we need to remember without Jesus Christ our only Teacher who through the empowering of The Holy Spirit Teaches all things we can still be deceived. This is why I would like to ask you some very important questions. Do you believe in The Godhead or The Trinity as They are called today ? and have you personally experienced signs and wonders or Miracles that were genuine ? and who told you what you now believe to be True or where did you receive your confirmation from, was it God or man ?

    • Freedom, why are you asking me all of these questions? Every so often someone comes on the blog and does this. I simply don’t get it and don’t feel the need that I should have to answer them. If you are curious about what I believe there’s tons here already written.

    • Freedomborn/Annie-

      Did you bother to read the guidelines on posting? I wrote them so that people would have a clear idea on how I deal with people who choose to misbehave. It does state that I delete these kinds of rants! How many of yours have been deleted? 4? 5? !!!

      Obviously I am a believer in Christ as taught in the word or I would not be able to do what I do here, nor would I answer your original comment in the way that I did – which by the way gives quite a bit of info into my beliefs and my experiences.

      As I have already stated, I don’t see the need for these questions you are asking me. I find them to be quite odd in fact. I have had them before and from experience I have found they go no where but an endless debate. I do not argue or support these kinds of postings on my blog.

      You have already concluded strange things about me -
      that I am afraid of the light
      that I am deceived,
      that I am in a cult
      and why—-simply because I will not give into your repeated postings and demands. That behavior is manipulation, it is judgement and quite unfounded! These things come as no surprise, as I’ve said I’ve dealt with them before and as soon as I saw yours I knew we would end here. And believe me, we are finished!

  59. Hi M’kayla and faithful friends of this blog :)
    I have a question for you…perhaps others may also have a similar one. With regard to the “authority of Jesus”…did He give that to us as well? I see in the word that it was given to the 12 then the 70 but I don’t see the word AUTHORITY used towards the rest of us…which brings me to a second thought…regarding the supernatural gifts: words, prophecy and DISCERNING OF SPIRITS>>> is that something to be bought into? I ask because when praying I want to be accurate, non offensive to the Lord and effectual for the Kingdom and a blessing to others. I spend a lot of time in intercession. I have a lot to “undo” in habits – so basically I went back to the beginning. I don’t pray in tongues now…and am wondering also if you are familiar with books by “Charles H.Kraft”? I have one called Defeating Dark Angels….Shall I just remove it? This is still one area that I cannot seem to see clearly on. In your opinion…is spiritual warfare – for us or not? any answer is appreciated – I really want to pray correctly to honor the Lord. blessings all, Mary

    • Mary

      Luke 10:17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”
      18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven.” See that emphasis in v20??? So often the teachings of authority leave that out.

      Colossians 2:15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

      I don’t subscribe to a type of intercession that attempts to remove principalities and demons. They have an allowed place to be, and even tho they – Satan – can be quite powerful, they remain under the allowance of our Mighty Father God.

      Intercession is prayer for the lost, and we make our requests for things that we need to the Lord. Have a look at John 17 in how Jesus prayed and you will see what I mean. In addition, Christ taught His disciples to pray in the same manner, in what we call the Lord’s Prayer.

      Hope this helps, let me know. :)

  60. thanks as always M’Kayla you were right to the point. I too had Luke 10:20 in mind and see my name written in that book as the far greater thing!!! Amen and amen!!! I also have Col 2:15 in my study notes and was meditating on that and saw that triumph as a conflict to the “deliverance” teaching of today, so thanks for bringing that verse up to me again as well. I don’t really want to be messing with demons or concerned with them in prayer, however as an intercessor – my main focus IS SALVATION AND workers being sent out to reap as led to. I started my “recent new beginnings” in the word studying John 17 and found it to be like a warm bath to cleanse sore wounds. I truly believe that by your definition here I am an intercessor as my heartbeat is truly for the LOST and I pray daily for many I know who are out there. I also pray for the persecuted church, missionaries and the Lord’s prayer is my pattern to cover keeping me on track. Your answer was very very helpful and I shall keep my focus on this main thing. I think I know this to be my calling, blessings Mary

  61. Hi Mkayla, God bless you sister :) would you tell my from you experience and knowledge of scripture are there such things as soul ties that have to be broken or generational curses. i keep getting distracted by topics such as these…such a lot of cobwebs to sweep out as yet. thanks mary <3

    • Have a look at this article – http://mkayla.wordpress.com/2009/06/06/generational-curses/
      Sad that we can find many books to the opposite, one of which by Larry Huch (may be misspelled) which has gained quite a readership. Christians do not have gen curses on their lives, nor our we responsible for the sins of our ancestors – Jeremiah 31:30.

      As far as soul ties, there is no such thing in the bible. We repent, and set ourselves to learning, renewing our minds in Christ. Romans 12:2 I believe soul ties falls into this warning Col. 2:8, reading considering also vs 6-10, Romans 8:1.

      As a part of the healing rooms we often found 10′s of 1000′s of reasons for soul ties. However, they don’t seem to fall into scripture anywhere that I can read and I don’t ever remember having heard a sermon on it in the past. We are called to put off sin, a part of the transforming of the mind, grace is granted to the believer for this purpose. Looking to worldly and new age teachings to explain our problems and to find solutions is not the answer.

      Happy to help! :)

  62. i have another question for you M’Kayla…is there such a thing as “transference” referring to someone passing demonic influence to you by physical contact, like laying on of hands or i thought perhaps by hugging someone. can demons pass back and forth among us in such a way? sound like “hitch hiking” – is that real? i hear this phase used a lot in churches now. thanks again. you are being so helpful… you are confirming for me what i am learning in my studies – mostly what just does not appear in the bible.

    • Mary, I kind of have to laugh because it hits me the people who have to be worried about demons jumping on them are the ones who teach it. WOF/Charismania people are so suspicious and in such bondage they have to go about performing their useless rituals wherever they go and on whomever they touch. It is crazy fear induced by the enemy and his strong influence because of their false teaching, doctrine and prophecy. Isn’t it also so strange they speak of what great authority they have but live in fear of some silly demon hopping up on their shoulders. I believe when a Christian allows their thinking to be overtaken by false doctrine that they open the way for the demonic to influence their thinking and in other areas of their lives. I used to think it was a form of possession, but I am not so sure now. I don’t believe a demon can exist in the spirit of a person where Christ is said to dwell. But in looking at the strange behavior and manifestations I attributed that to possession. (Still learning!)

      I believe we can be influenced by them, of course –
      I Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour
      Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in heavenly places.
      They are subject to the authority and rule of Christ as we have already discussed.

      So, for me if I shook hands with a person who had a demon, it could not jump on me just because of the touch. I would think the Lord would grant me discernment and I would cast the demon out, or off, speaking truth to the person, rather than becoming subject to it. See how they have flipped the truth, making the demon more powerful than God….. not so surprising since Satan (Lucifer) wanted that place all along, and has convinced some people he has. Interesting thought pattern.

  63. to the point and a wonderful answer as usual…what a blessed help you are M’Kayla. many thanks. so much old rotten teaching all mixed together nowadays into all the denominations it seems. you meet a friend happy to find them a believer and share in that joy…down the road you hear of all the nonsense they believe and so very strongly. i am not the best debater and shy away from it. i do however pray often for them that they too will have an awareness of the need to seek for the whole truth and nothing but it. blessings mary

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  66. M’Kayla – do you still speak in tongues when you pray? I have been sticking with just the English for about the last two months – any comments on this for us, blessings Mary

  67. Tongues is something that I am still confused about. What confuses me the most is how so many people can do it – including me. Do we have this gift but there is not enough interpretation or is it just a mental thing that pagans and Christians can do? I have read and re-read Corinthians and feel that Paul was not speaking in tongues as a heavenly language but I still doubt myself.

    • Tongues is a gift. If spoken in public there must be an interpreter. If spoken in private it is between the person and God. There is more written on tongues for the preaching of the gospel than there is as related to speaking in the spirit. There is also a greater emphasis placed on the edification of others, so that hearers understand and that things are done properly. So, there is a gift, but rules as to how the gift is used.

      Far too much emphasis has been placed on tongues and many are confused. This should not be because God is not the author of confusion. It the subject is too hard, I say pray for understanding and leave the study alone for a time. God will bring you understanding.

  68. i have another in my line of many questions for you Mkayla…I go for therapy for frozen shoulder pain and posture pain as well as an ongoing type of massage. I am trying to find out if she is using Reiki on me – she says no. Yet her style of hand pressures seem like it. various positions of touch pressure, etc. How could I determine on my own. Perhaps they don’t call it by that name. tips??
    blessings, Mary

    • I think they are required to tell you but I would do some Reiki research on the internet. I found a shot of cortisone brought my frozen shoulder back to life. Regular exercise keeps it there. :)

  69. Mary, I’ve had lots of massage therapy and they go to classes throughout their career and learn all types of massage. She may not be do Reiki in her mind but her hands might be. I don’t think that the hand position is as important as what is going on in her mind. Ask the Lord to show you the truth and pray for her while she is working on you.

    • I believe true Reiki power to be the same as Kundalini and probably Chi. All claim the power to heal and to bring energy from an “imparted” force, or as the healing power residing in us all. Yet we as Christians know that power does not come from God. Reiki is growing and used throughout the medical community.

      I won’t go into details but I recently witnessed it used on a friend who was grieving the loss of her son. I had already been standing behind her with my hand on her back while she wept out loud. When the Reiki/new age touch and lies started, I simply prayed to the Father silently for her protection. I felt she was being taken advantage of in her grieving-spiritually weakened state. God is much more powerful than the lies or touch of the enemy, no matter how good that touch may feel.

  70. thanks again MKayla and Erin…I shall indeed pray for the therapist and also ask some point blank questions about the training. In general I am finding it really isn’t working lol – go figure. as for the cortisone shots – I had them too but over time the pain is much much better almost 2 years now. blessings mary

  71. Finding this website and reading your information regarding Bethel Church has truly given me hope for my son Xavier. He is lost, yet he feels saved. He is so malnourished from all the fasting and soaking he does. He is so weak, yet he says he feels strong. He looks just horrible. He walks around dazed and is unable to keep his train of thought. This church has messed him all up. Just yesterday he said that Xavier is dead and is now full of only the Holy Spirit. I need someone who has been there and seen the light of how this church is charismatic in their ways. This church is a cult and I need someone who could meet with my son and help him. Please let me know….From a desperate Mom in Redding who is in need of help for her son.

    • I’m so sorry. Please feel free to use the information you find here on my blog to help out. There are no quick answers or easy solutions, – and how I wish I could tell you “just say blah, blah” and he would see the truth! But the Lord is able to save him from Bethel, as He has many others. Keep praying for him and let me know how I can help you from here.

  72. Dear M’Kayla,
    Thanks for taking the time to share all your learning and warning us!
    My experience is like that of many others: in and out of charismania… I’d started to write my full testimony but it was way too long to post here, LOL. I’ll try to summarize: I was raised a Roman Catholic, devout for about five years, then big nervous breakdown for personal reasons plus desertion by church people. Then basically far from God for 5 years. Brought back to spiritual things by a lovely couple who loved God and the Bible and were yet ignorant of many things.

    Had a true born-again experience in that Evangelical, seeker-sensitive church. I know it was a true new birth because I was really repentant of my waywardness, experienced great fruit of huge changes in my life which noone but the Holy Spirit could have caused, became radically passionate about Jesus and the Bible… and soon enough, the same Holy Spirit who brought me conviction and repentance led me to websites and sermons to download where little by little many of the lies I was being taught at the church I was at were exposed.

    It was heartbreaking! I loved my church, my leaders, my friends, but I loved the Lord so much more and my overriding fear was, Will I lose my salvation if I ignore these warnings I’m receiving? And that panic kept me researching and praying, and I lost my peace. Of course, I didn’t know at first if it was truly the Holy Spirit warning me, leading me to read all the passages that seemed not to exist in my pastor’s Bible (typical ones were the messages to and about false prophets given by prophet Jeremiah, the second letter from Peter, Jude’s letter, the warnings from Jesus about false teachers and prophets). The other alternative was, It’s the devil accusing this anointed of God and causing me to doubt him, when externally I see nothing radically wrong in his preaching. I was in doubt for many months, prayed so earnestly for confirmation one way or the other, and the fear kept increasing, the warning voice becoming stronger. The worst is that I was newly married, and my husband at first didn’t see any of what I was seeing. I prayed so much for him, and slowly he began to receive what charismanics would label a “critical spirit”. Slowly the Lord confirmed all of my concerns in his mind too.

    We left, after writing a longish letter for the pastor which we sent through one of his “12″. (The church in question followed G12 teachings by César Castellanos, a Colombian pastor who “received” a “vision” for “evangelism” which led to great church growth IN NUMBERS, and then exported his success to many churches in Latin America, including mine, a mega church of about 20,000.) We believe the pastor never actually read it or dismissed it completely, for to date he hasn’t changed his teaching style. Always so artificially sweet and sounding so deceptively loving and friendly it made me sick. Very WOFish and psychology oriented. On his radio shows he sounds more of a motivational speaker than a pastor. He speaks for half an hour and only at the end gives a very brief Bible reference. Don’t remember ever hearing him explain the Gospel in full.

    Anyway, we prayed for discernment and started attending the church of a pastor we usually watched on a TV show. It seemed to be so much better. Mostly expository, verse by verse teaching, a guy who seemed to just love the Bible and the Lord. Unfortunately, this good man of God was deceived too, by a NAR kind of church that provided “covering” to his church. This “apostle” from Guatemala and a group of other “apostles” and “prophets” named my new pastor an apostle and that was the first huge red flag I saw, right after joining the church.

    Why did we stick around? I guess we were so confused and hurt and this guy seemed to love the Lord so much… In many ways the new church was better than the old one. In some ways it was much worse (such as the idea of imposing “authority” in a rigid, non-Biblical manner), we would in time discover. But I believe, as has been the experience of many here, that the Lord allowed my being here because He wanted me to see the monster firsthand.

    Fast forward four years: big personal crisis in my pastor. Don’t know all the details but end result: he breaks ties with this “covering” church and relations with this “apostle” whom I believe an apostate. My pastor is still in the cleansing process, with ups and downs. I believe he belongs to the Lord but there’s still residual false doctrine (a little WOF here and there, belief that apostleship is still for today even though he admits most apostles and prophets are false). Our church has dwindled from 400 to about 40. We’ve stopped attending, then come back for a while and we cannot seem to find a better church and we feel we are being used by the Lord to sort of help him with a Word here and there. We live in Buenos Aires, BTW.

    Thing is, we need wisdom. We don’t know FOR SURE if the Lord wants us to leave this church for good, and if so, where to go? Churches we’ve visited are like, “Ok, but not for us”. We’ve visited two Baptist churches which my husband didn’t like because the worship was sort of dead, very non enthusiastic, and one conservative Pentecostal congregation which seemed also dead in worship except the people clapped. I don’t mean to sound like we expect charismanic wild worship, you know, just a little bit of enthusiasm with moderate physical expression (not really dancing, but perhaps moving your hands or feet a little to the rhythm) and more lively singing. I don’t make any big deal about that, but my husband has been led to believe if he doesn’t sort of “connect” to the worship and experience some peace and love through it, it’s not worship.

    Could you please comment on this? I believe “worship” with songs in church is so overrated. My idea of worship is that singing a song is just one of the zillion ways to worship, most important of which is obedience in your daily life.

    • Hi Carina and thank you for your testimony!

      I am with you, I don’t believe that singing is all that important and there has been so much false belief and teaching surrounding it for me that I moved into a “who needs this” kind of mentality. If you were to read the book of Acts you will notice in all that Holy Spirit work, not one note was ever sung. If we sing to the Lord to attain a certain feeling, we aren’t truly worshiping Him, but the feeling or experience that the music brings. It is very hard to find true Christian music as so many have been taken over by the big name, worldly recording business and many have joined with false apostles, prophets and goofy prayer movements that change nothing.

      Yes, wisdom is needed in your decision to leave your church or stay, or even join another. Be very careful in considering the reasons why you believe the Lord would have you stay under false teaching, when scripture clearly calls us out of it, warning repeatedly that we are to stay away from false teachers. Christ is the Messiah, and as much as we would like to think we are “helping” it is never our place to lead a person out, or to convince them, but to speak the truth to them and allow the Holy Spirit to move them in the correct direction by convicting them of sin. John 14-17. Many of us are being led out of church not to join another. It is a scary proposal, I know, but also consider Christians in other countries who have long time found themselves in that very place. I believe that when we come out and be separate the Lord will take care of us, oftentimes more powerfully than before. I would suggest you and your husband study this out in scripture before coming to a decision.

      Feel free to pop in anytime. It is my prayer the writing and research I have done over the last several years proves a value in yours.

      Blessed be the name of the Lord!
      Be well! :)

  73. Could you please comment on this? I believe “worship” with songs in church is so overrated. My idea of worship is that singing a song is just one of the zillion ways to worship, most important of which is obedience in your daily life.

    The word worship is a contraction of worth and ship; so, your understanding is right on the mark. Because of God’s worth we are to revere him in all that we do. Well, that’s the goal anyway – which we can only achieve by submitting to the Spirit inside of us.

  74. Regarding worship with music, for some reason or other, I haven’t been able to do it for years. In a way what happens to me is similar to what I used to experience in my Catholic days when trying to say the rosary. My mind wanders to work I have to do, what I have experienced during the week, trying to get the right tune, any thought except the words I’m supposed to be concentrating on. It doesn’t matter if my eyes are closed or open. You know, they say if you close your eyes it’ll help you focus. Doesn’t work with me. Perhaps the Holy Spirit doesn’t want me to be caught in this emotional teary stuff? There have been many times when everyone was so feeling the presence of God (or whatever it was) and I was so cold, wondering what they were talking about… And that makes you feel so unspiritual… Because we tend to associate those who get in the mood with true worshippers. But I know it’s not always the case. Your comment about “worshipping” for selfish reasons is right on.

    One thing that keeps me from being in the mood, I feel, is that at times my life is so messed up. Like, How can I sing “I love you Jesus” when I’m not that sure I do? I don’t want to be hypocritical, the kind of person of whom God would say, She blesses me with her lips, but her heart is so far from me. I feel an offering of praise when there is sin you’re not quite giving up is an abomination. How can we offer lies to God and expect Him to be pleased? So when I feel that way, I usually don’t sing at all, just sit through it trying to listen to the lyrics and pray silently that God will help me to love Him the way I used to.

    My biggest challenge is that I seem to have lost that zeal I used to have, the desire for seeking God no matter what, that first love. I’m slowly forcing myself to come back to daily prayer (a lot of confession and prayer for true personal revival) and Bible reading. During the last few months the Lord has brought our family through a very traumatic process of moving house (long story). At first it was horrible but the Lord has brought me down to my knees in repentance and now I’m feeling better. I’m letting go of my idols as I learn to identify them.

    My husband is struggling with a very strong attachment to this pastor I’ve mentioned. He found it very hard to leave the first “Evangelical” church we attended, and now it’s much harder, because we’ve been here for 6 years and this pastor is so much better than the other one. In many many ways he’s a very good teacher of the Word, and I would say 90% of it is pure doctrine. I know what you will say, there is still a 10% of poison, and that’s the point. I will continue praying both this pastor and my husband, and wisdom to know if we’re supposed to leave now, start a small group at home, find another church or what.

    • Carina, I think one of the problems with the structure of the church is the stand up, sit down, now sing this and mean it, kind of an attitude. If you don’t feel like singing, don’t do it. The Lord already knows your heart! The fact that Jesus came to earth to experience life as a man means that He understands what we go through. So, is it that you don’t love Jesus during those times, or just don’t like what you are being asked to endure? Our walk is not easy, it is very hard. We don’t understand what loving God with all our heart, mind and strength truly means until we try to truly lay down our lives. The fact that we are transformed by the renewing of our minds is not in an instant, but through a process. The most awesome part is that we will never walk that alone! :)

  75. Exactly, Craig and M’Kayla. The problem with church structure is that it forces you to do lots of things you don’t necessarily feel like doing, and condemns you when you don’t. I have seen it many times. “Worship” leaders and pastors pushing the congregation to sing louder, lift our hands, clap, and sing the same song a zillion times. Singing a series of songs may seem more spontaneous than following a rigid liturgy, but it’s not necessarily so.

    I think pushing people to sing (one thing is encourage, which I would say is ok) is as unbiblical as the opposite extreme of forbidding clapping, lifting hands for fear of resembling Charismatic churches. What I felt during the Baptist churches I was at is that I found it hard to believe that people who loved God (and most people I talked to were so friendly I have no reason to believe they didn’t) could adopt such a rigid posture. Who am I to judge, anyway, it just didn’t strike me as a natural attitude to singing to such an awesome God. I think balance is the key here.

    But again, I don’t mean to make a big deal of this. It’s just that it’s an issue for my husband, who loves worship services (and is a very good Christian, would say). What I don’t like is that idea so prevalent in Pentecostal churches that the presence of God is necessarily what comes when you sing a bunch of songs. I think if the presence of God actually came it would take out the Annanias and Sapphiras among us. Wouldn’t that be scary? I associate the presence of God with repentance and changed lives much more than peaceful feelings.

  76. Worship comes from within your heart, that which makes you “you”. God wants your heart, your attention, confessions, brokenness, your devotion, your obedience, your energy and allegiance. He wants you willing and eager, zealous to reach out for Him, acknowledging you’re a sinner and He is the almighty, sovereign, holy and righteous God, that He is good and gentle, kind, and His ways are better than yours. Worship is fearing Him, in awe and reverence for the one and only true God. Worship doesn’t come from a church musical service that has rehearsed its songs and prayers, performing before an auditorium filled with overly excited and emotional people. Worship is a posture, it is on your face surrender to the sovereignty of God, a surrender to Him. Worship is being entirely comfortable with Him in complete control of every aspect of your life. Worship is communing with Him constantly. To worship is to choose Him over anything and everything else when you have the choice. Oh, how I fail, but Oh, how I long to worship Him in spirit and in truth. I used to think worship was only through music. I’ve come a long way since then.

  77. I went so far as to stop saying “I am on the worship team” to saying “I help lead music at our services” because that small, small definition of worship really started to get on my nerves.

    Right now I guess I look at it this way: For some (not all) singing and music is a primary mode of expression. Just like for others it might be talking, writing, telling a story, etc. So for those who express themselves through music, the seemingly dry, stoic singing can be a little hard to understand. I try to just take it for what it is. Not everyone is drawn to music. Some people don’t find it easy to pick up a new melody so to them it is not a wonderful time of expression. I think we have made too big of a deal out of the music portion of our gatherings. Especially in those places where emotion has been equated with God’s presence.

    But even after going through the ups and downs of being in and leaving charismania where music is BIG, I still find myself primarily drawn to music -only now I am very careful about the lyrics. I am aware that a few particular songs have really meant a lot to me at specific times and I am grateful to the musicians and writers who point us to Jesus.

    @Carina I’ve been in those times when I felt like a hypocrite to say something in the lyrics and had preachers say “If you don’t feel like you can honestly say that, then consider it a declaration of faith and say it anyway.”

    Baloney.

    The psalms are full of real life, heart breaking cries for help, assurance, deliverance and confessions. There have been long seasons in my life when those were the songs of my heart.

  78. The whole emphasis on music within hyper-charismaticism is largely based upon a faulty understanding and proof-texting of Psalm 22:3 specifically in the KJV:

    3But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.

    From this is drawn the false doctrine that “God inhabits our praises”, thus God’s presence is manifested (inhabited) in “worship” music. From there, this is used as manipulation via the repetitious music/lyrics which induce at least a mild hypnosis to set up the audience to expect “God’s manifest presence” and subsequently because of this hypnotic state the congregation will accept whatever false teachings come out of the speakers who follow.

  79. Yes, I’ve heard that verse many times when the “worship” team where leading us. I’ve seen one or two people really get carried away (one lady in my church used to make humming noises as if she was in a trance-like state and that freaked me out) but most of us just sing and I doubt many of us really feel any manifest presence. Anyway, I think God sees our hearts and as long as the songs are truly biblical and God-centered (too many are not!) I don’t think it’s wrong to spend an hour (even two) singing to the Lord. It can be a wonderful way to leave behind your worries and concerns. (I’d think prayer is much more effective but well, that’s me).

    And regarding the topic of deliverance from dark spiritual influences which is mentioned in this page, the following article really got me thinking:
    http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue78.pdf

    When I got involved in my first Evangelical church, I received an eight-month course on many topics. One of the topics included was deliverance. The practice of this methodology for exorcism has always bothered me. From the very beginning I thought there was something seriously wrong when we had to spend so much time ordering demons to come out of people.

    One of the passages that the Lord gave me was Jude verses 8-10. Archangel Michael didn’t dare to rebuke satan, but we mock him and insult him as if all authority had been given to US… (If we really had that much authority, demons would leave immediately after we said Get out in the name of Jesus). I’ve always preferred to spend my time in prayer in worship, thanksgiving and supplication and not even TALK to these fallen beings. I think God is more than able to deal with whatever spirits may be bothering us. And if He doesn’t, He has a purpose in allowing demons to hurt us in some way. I think prayer, Bible study and having faith in the Gospel is much more effective in expelling demons than anything else we can do.

  80. @Craig, Oh yeah, how could I have forgotten that one? The catholics teach that Christ actually inhabits the wafer, and charismania does the same with praise. There is an implied belief that our singing somehow enables or empowers God Almighty to move or act.

    Shaking my head saying ‘sorry’

  81. I believe God CAN actually move His hand mightily in our worship services if what is done there is actually worship. I mean if people sing out of the abundance of their hearts, not only feeling the songs but actually believing with a Hebrews 11 conviction, and with a surrender to God’s will (not a “means-to-an-end attitude”) and God sees that our lives actually go hand in hand with our words, then I don’t see why God wouldn’t want to respond to that faith and trust… I see worship with songs as one more of the many means of grace. For some of us, singing is a great way to worship, some of us don’t appreciate it all that much and worship best by praying with our own words or using psalms as models, for example.

    But just like prayer doesn’t automatically work in the way we expect (because we may, for example, consider prayer as a way of demanding that God grant our wishes like he’s a genie or a santa claus), worship is not the way to get things but an expression of gratitude for what He’s already done and trust for what He’ll continue to do for us. I believe when worship (whether it includes songs or not) is sincere, God does like it (especially when it comes at moments of great tribulation when things are not going the way we’d expect and we still proclaim that we trust Him no matter what) and respond by granting true peace.

    What’s really wrong is taking ANY means of grace (prayer, worship, Bible reading, etc.) as a METHOD to be applied in a how-to, step-by-step manner by people who may have absolutely no desire for God’s Kingdom to rule them!

    You’re totally right that, just like Catholics think that saying certain words renew the sacrifice that was totally finished on Calvary, we can, just by singing the right lyrics, bring God’s presence. My concerns are precisely that enthusiastic singing says nothing about the condition of the heart! But God sees the truth and knows who are worshipping in spirit and in truth and will reward those who truly seek Him.

  82. @ Carina. I’d agree things happen with any heartfelt, honest communication with the Father (in Spirit and in Truth) whether it be accompanied by music or not. Bowing to His Will and Person IS worship, and a genuine expression of that can build our faith by reminding us Who He is. A song that expounds on His character and faithfulness can be a part of renewing our minds. There may be a change in circumstances and/or there may be a change in our attitude or understanding, a deepening of our relationship with God, a refreshing and strengthening, etc.

    If I miscommunicated I’m sorry- I was referring to the charismaniac practice of singing and singing and singing and saying the song itself is somehow ‘anointed’ or a condition to make God ‘show up’ because He ACTUALLY inhabits the music and so if we sing enough he is going to ‘show up’ because we have created a place for Him to inhabit. I don’t know your experience, but it is hard to explain if you have not witnessed what I am talking about.

    And is seems that as humans we are always about one half step away from making a method out of almost anything related to walking in grace.

  83. The catholics teach that Christ actually inhabits the wafer, and charismania does the same with praise. There is an implied belief that our singing somehow enables or empowers God Almighty to move or act.

    Two things are of utter importance to me: 1) submitting every thought to the Word of God, and 2) being careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water.

    Yes, there is error in virtually every type of church. Yes, error needs to be exposed and forsaken.

    At the same time, let’s not forget to let God’s Word be THE reference for every thing we say and do.

    It really is written in His Word that “God inhabits the praises of His people.” It is written in the Psalms.

    When His people are truly united in His Spirit, singing TO Him and worshipping Him as the One who is Worthy of all praise, honor, and glory, there often does come a holy anointing in the place — sometimes a holy hush. In such an atmosphere He is glorified, and He often does move in a mighty way to show Himself strong in His people’s lives. I have even seen unbelievers delivered out of death into Life in such an atmosphere, have seen them delivered out of darkness into His marvelous Light.

    Christ Jesus spoke of the power which results from His people being united in His presence and love with each other. He even spoke of the importance of this several times in the OT.

    So, while I too am concerned about abuse (which comes from not following the Lord in church services), I am equally concerned about the opposite extreme of grieving His Holy Spirit by not allowing Him to move in church services as He will, but rather holding Him back with such attitudes as fear, pride, and unbelief.

    This is a tough issue for today’s church, for His people, for sure. This requires great discernment at all times — and discernment is a gift of the Holy Spirit which we cannot afford to ignore and discard. EVERY gift of the Holy Spirit is vitally important in EVERY congregation of His people, at all times. We simply cannot afford to ignore HIm in any way.

  84. Claire, you wrote, “It really is written in His Word that “God inhabits the praises of His people.” It is written in the Psalms.”

    You misinterpret the meaning. The subject is God and He is enthroned when we praise him.

  85. OK, that didn’t explain it very well… God is always ON His throne; however, when we praise Him we are recognizing Him as the Almighty. By giving Him praise we recognize that He is on the Throne (capital “T”) and there is none higher than Him.

  86. Here’s Psalm 22:3 in the NIV:

    Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
    you are the praise of Israel.

    The writers of the NIV changed the clumsiness of the KJV. God is the praise of Israel because He is the Holy One on the Throne.

    Here’s the Mercer Commentary on the Bible: (Wisdom) Writings on this verse:

    …Yahweh is addressed as holy and enthroned on the praises of Israel [NKJV]. This strange phrase is similar to “enthroned on the cherubim” in Ps 80:1 and 99:1, a reference to the ARK of the covenant. The expression reflects the concept, known elsewhere in ancient Near Eastern religions, of a deity whose throne is supported above the earth by the loyalty and praise of his subjects…

  87. Craig, I do not disagree with your last post (the one before it, not so much, lol, as He is always enthroned whether anyone praises Him, or not). Do you disagree with the gist of my statement above? I’m not going to quibble about that verse. I just know that God’s Word does say that God inhabits the praises of His people.

  88. Mkayla thank you very much, for sharing this article….I found your blog on greycoats…after researching the Ihop situation, any way as I was reading this thru I remember trying to get free of a false belief system/spirits from people who had gone up to Ihop and to toronto from the church I went to in Tulsa ok. like going under the shepards rod and so on…anyway I started to renounce today any false Gospel, any spirit and manifestation and I can already feel the difference..this is very Important…so I posted the link on my Facebook…I had come to know about what was going on when Todd Bentley came out and I told a couple of Christian friends about it and they both told me it was not of God…these two friends didn’t even know each other…so I took a step back and started researching…
    thanks again…keep up the work of ministering the truth!

    Byron Wilson

  89. Claire,

    Since I’m not sure you got a chance to see my post at Feb 13 8:20pm, I’ll give you a chance to respond to that one – that is, unless you can find another Psalm which states “God inhabits the praises of His people“. Can you explain, using your own words, what you think this phrase means?

  90. M’Kayla and everyone,
    I think we’re basically in agreement. Claire has clearly expressed what I was thinking. I don’t like extremes, either of too much formalism and fear of everything that sounds emotional or of extreme emotionalism. Balance is probably around the middle.

    Yes, it is true that God inhabits the praises of His people. I think noone here is denying that. The point is how do we define praise. I think what’s wrong is defining praise as “a group of people singing to God”, because that’s just one of the many ways we can praise as a group. Praise could also mean people sharing testimonies of the wonderful things the Lord has done in their lives or their week, and prayers of thanksgiving for the Lord’s faithfulness. I think what the passage says is basically that when we have an attitude of praising the Lord for who He is and what He does, He will make His presence more real to us. I believe it does include feelings, too. We’re thinking and feeling people, so I don’t think it’s wrong to desire to feel thankful and joyful when thinking about Him. Again, it’s all about balance.

    Ruthsongs, I understood your comments and didn’t take offense or anything. And Craig, yes, we do need to be extra careful about not becoming idolaters of any method we think works.

    Yes, the Lord can and does make us (even a whole group of people) feel His presence when we’re in one accord seeking His face. It happened at Pentecost. It can in a way happen to us… It may result in miracles and healings, why not? What I’ve always felt is a horrible presumption is to print flyers announcing our services will include miracles, as if we could force the Lord to do miracles or bless us in any way.

    I think the same happens, come to think of it, when we pray “in Jesus’ name”. Some think the mere repetition of His name means He will grant us any request… I don’t think Jesus can be used as a magic formula.

    • Agreed Carina. When there is a formula, when we have expectations of God hidden in our “praise”, we’ve stepped away from the true meaning of worship. If we do not approach Him with hearts of thankfulness and instead approach with selfish motives – “I want, I get”, we’ve lost the reason for our worship/praise. God is to be honored and worshipped because of who He is, period.

  91. It looks as though this comment got lost in cyberspace; so, I’ll repost:

    Here’s Psalm 22:3 in the NIV:

    Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
    you are the praise of Israel.

    The writers of the NIV changed the clumsiness of the KJV. God is the praise of Israel because He is the Holy One on the Throne.

    Here’s the Mercer Commentary on the Bible: (Wisdom) Writings on this verse:

    …Yahweh is addressed as holy and enthroned on the praises of Israel [NKJV]. This strange phrase is similar to “enthroned on the cherubim” in Ps 80:1 and 99:1, a reference to the ARK of the covenant. The expression reflects the concept, known elsewhere in ancient Near Eastern religions, of a deity whose throne is supported above the earth by the loyalty and praise of his subjects…

  92. Carina,

    Now that my post has made the light of day [Feb 15, 3:00pm], I ask that you read it, then follow that with a reading Psalm 22:1-4, preferably in the NIV or NASB, thereby putting it in its proper context. You will then see that this verse does not state “God inhabits our praises” as it’s not really about praise at all. It’s about David’s anguish that God seems not be listening to him [vv 1-2]. Then [v 3], David acknowledges that God is “the praise of Israel” [NIV]; and, that God does eventually answer prayer [v 4].

    Jesus even quotes a portion of Psalm 22 [v 1] on the Cross. (See Matthew 27:46.)

    What does “God inhabits our praises” even mean? Those involved in hyper-charismaticism were taught that this means in praise/worship that God will manifest His presence as already noted by proof-texting Psalm 22:3 [in KJV or NKJV]. However, yes, God can ‘show up’ so to speak when we praise Him. I was even personally healed as I praised God (no one else was present).

    So, I suppose I agree in part with your comment.

  93. Craig, the NIV was not translated from the original languages. The ESV (English Standard Version) is said to have been translated from those original languages. I copied and pasted this info at BibleGateway.com:

    Psalm 22:3
    English Standard Version (ESV)

    3 Yet you are (A)holy, (B)enthroned on (C)the praises[a] of Israel.

    Footnotes:a.Psalm 22:3 Or dwelling in the praises

    Cross references:A.Psalm 22:3 : Lev. 19:2
    B.Psalm 22:3 : [Ps. 80:1; 99:1]
    C.Psalm 22:3 : [Ps. 9:11, 14; 65:1; 102:21; 147:12]

    Again, I do not wish to quibble about this verse. I would ask you again — do you disagree with the entire context of my earlier post (February 13, IIRC)? Or not?

  94. Carina, your most recent post is a breath of fresh air to me, for I can see that you truly understood what I tried to convey on February 15. Your second paragraph was particularly meaningful to me. I am so glad to see that someone understands the full context of my post. :)

  95. What I’ve always felt is a horrible presumption is to print flyers announcing our services will include miracles, as if we could force the Lord to do miracles or bless us in any way.

    Amen, Carina. Years ago I heard of a church which advertised a week of special services this way:

    Special Services (dates and times)

    We are praying for Revival!

    Now that was an honest church. Only God can send true Revival. :)

  96. My previous comment was meant to be directed to Claire rather than Carina. Sorry for the confusion. This comment is also directed to Claire in answer to her comment above.

    The ESV is apparently translated from the Hebrew Masoretic text (OT) and from the Greek in the NT. The NIV is translated from the Greek in NT, however, in the OT it is translated from the Masoretic Text while comparing this with other sources such as the Dead Sea Scrolls which had fragments of all the OT books (except Esther) which are also from the Hebrew and, more importantly, 1000 years older than the oldest extant OT manuscript. This was done as a cross-check in cases where it wasn’t clear which word or phrase was likely original.

    A similar thing is done in the NT as manuscripts are compared to each other and each variance is weighed and determined by a team of scholars which is correct as we don’t have the original documents from the ‘pen’ of the NT writers to be absolutely certain. This is called Textual Criticism. And, it’s for this reason there isn’t one single Greek New Testament to translate from. The two most common are the United Bible Societies and the Nestle-Aland Novum Testamentum Graece.

    In general, the ESV is a bit more literal (though not quite as literal as the NASB) than the NIV which is more, shall we say, conversational or readable. This takes some of the clumsiness out of the colloquialisms and idioms. As an example, I’m originally from Pennsylvania near Lancaster and one of the phrases my mother used to use was “go read up your room” which, while other Americans may be able to figure this means “go clean up your room”, foreigners may be lost as to the meaning.

    No Bible translation is perfect and each one has strengths and weaknesses. It’s best to use more than one. I prefer the NIV and NASB (as noted the NASB is more literal).
    CRI did a comparison of Bible translations and here’s a snippet:

    …It is my opinion, however, that it would be ideal if the church would use more consistently formal versions (the range of NASB to ESV to NIV) in regular teaching and worship, with the teaching elders doing the “interpretation” based on a solid knowledge of the original languages…

    I had already stated above that I agree in part with your post. However, I don’t think “God inhabits our praises” is a satisfactory way to say that God is pleased with our worship of Him (irrespective of the way this worship is conveyed whether in music/song, verbal/spoken praise, etc.) and hence may “show up” so to speak. I must say each time I see/hear “God inhabits our praises” I envision our words coming out like a talk bubble (like comic strip characters speaking) with God somehow ‘inhabiting’ one of these!

    Since this phrase is known as it is in hyper-charismatic circles, I think it best to find a better way of phrasing it.

    In addition, as I pointed out Psalm 22:1-4 is more about David’s frustration at God seemingly not listening to or answering his prayers with verse 3 a simple acknowledgment that God is worthy of “the praise of Israel”. As the Psalm continues, David is recognizing that God has answered prayer in the past and he is confident God will eventually answer his own despite his current circumstances.

    So, to conclude, Psalm 22:3 and the entire Psalm is saying nothing about God ‘inhabiting our praises’ as it’s a Psalm of anguish and frustration although with hope for the future based on God’s promises and past answers to prayer and/or response to praise.

  97. Craig, I thought the info at Bible Gateway was very interesting. I do not wish to argue about this verse, as it can deginerate into straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. I just know that I have sensed the marvelous saving, healing, delivering presence of God both alone and in a congregation when praising God. I do not move in “hyper-charismatic” circles at all, just plain Bible-believing Christians.

    If I may ask again: Do you agree or disagree with the gist of my earlier comment, apart from the verse itself?

    • Claire, I believe this thought pattern has been exhausted and Craig has already responded to your earlier comment in this latest response in how he feels the verse has been translated and biblical context and meaning. Let’s just leave it alone now before I have an overcoming desire to slam my head into the wall. :)

      Thanks!

  98. M’Kayla, Craig did not ever respond to my main question — more than once, he ignored it. In fact, it was he who continued on with this subject after I had answered him.

    However, this is your blog, so I defer to you here, as usual. God bless you. :)

    • Claire, its just that enough has been said on it. If we want to continue the conversation aside from that point and getting back to the topic – Freedom From False Spirits – which music plays a tremendous part inn the deception, that would be fine with me.

    • Claire, I would like for you to find the scripture you are referring to from your comment (which I am holding) regarding 1 or 2 Chronicles. I don’t have time to look it up via search, and if you are deferring, you need the back up. I am VERY interested in putting this together and hearing you, but I need the scrip, dear!

      Thanks for your co-op!

  99. Claire,

    Perhaps we’re just not communicating well. I thought I had answered your question agreeing with you in part. My point of departure was the faulty interpretation of the verse in hyper-charismaticism which promotes the idea that God is expected to ‘show up’ when He’s ‘praised’. Now, going to the subject of the post (this is the reason I brought it up to begin with): If ‘praise’ is seen as a formula to bring about ‘God’s’ manifest presence and the ‘worship’ is repeating the same lyric (as in merely one word in some cases) with the same chord sequence or drone ad infinitum and ad nauseum, my contention is that false spirits are drawn rather than the Holy Spirit. And I believe this happens quite often in these types of ‘worship’ services, just like they do in other false religions.

    This does not negate your point that God can and does ‘show up’ sometimes when He’s praised as I’ve menioned above irrespective of one’s interpretation of Psalm 22:3.

  100. M’Kayla, I sincerely hope I can appeal to our highest authority here and reference some incidents from Scripture which lend support to God inhabiting — or at the very least honoring — our praise.

    The first is in 1 or 2 Chronicles — I don’t have the exact reference, but I feel sure everyone here knows about the time when God’s people were praising Him and His presence filled the temple so that they were not able to stand.

    Another is from the life of David, where his praises to God brought deliverance from an evil spirit which oppressed King Saul’s life, and others’ through him.

    Another one the Lord has reminded me of lately is the incident where Paul and Silas were praising God in jail at midnight, and the Lord sent a mighty earthquake which opened all the jail cells and set them free. As a result, the jailer and all his household were saved.

    I hope you realize I am not supporting any unBiblical practices in any way, shape, or form — that is as far from my intent here as the East is from the West. I only seek to bring out the positive things in God’s Word which sometimes seem to be ignored or minimized in well-intended attempts to bring Scriptural balance to things done in churches today.

    Yes, there are churches/pastors/believers who are in dangerous waters — absolutely. ITA with that. I know it is true.

    At the same time, though, God has a faithful remnant who worship Him in Spirit and in Truth, and will always do so, throughout eternity. The Scriptural examples I cited above are examples.

    While it is important to warn people of destructive influences in the church, I do think it is just as important to emphasize the positive things the Lord does in His people’s lives, both individually and corporately, as they worship Him in purity of heart. Otherwise, people often tend to throw up their hands with a “what’s the use?” atttitude. But that’s never the answer. The Lord always shows us His answer to every need in His Word. I sincerely hope this will encourage someone today :)

  101. A bit of a correction here:

    Another is from the life of David, where his praises to God in music brought deliverance from an evil spirit which oppressed King Saul’s life, and others’ through him.

  102. Here it is, M’Kayla — from 2 Chronicles 5:

    13 It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD;

    14 So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God. [KJV]

    Thank you so much for the opportunity to post this Scripture. God bless you, dear sister. And everyone here who is seeking Him in Spirit and in Truth. :)

  103. P.S. This reminds me of the Scripture in Acts 2 which tells us what marvelous things happened when those believers were also worshipping the LORD as one, with one heart and one spirit. All that Christ Jesus had prophesied came to pass as they obeyed His command to wait for the promise of the Spirit before setting out on the ministry He had entrusted to them.

    • Yep, Claire and no one here would argue with the point you are getting out. God deserves our praise period and we should be worshipping Him in spirit and in truth as the word directs us. The problem comes in as unbliblical when there is an expectation of God to act according to man’s desires. That is the danger zone and the basis of much fallacy in varied forms throughout charismania. Worship comes in many forms, not just musical. :)

      Thanks again!

  104. The problem comes in as unbliblical when there is an expectation of God to act according to man’s desires.

    I totally agree. On another point of the spectrum, I grew up in a church which also required God to act according to man’s desires — the Spirit of God was never able to move as He wished. This is the reality of many churches who are totally opposed to the gifts of the Spirit.

    That is the danger zone and the basis of much fallacy in varied forms throughout charismania.

    I realize your focus is on the misuse of spiritual gifts (the meaning of the word ‘charisma’), but we should also note there is just as much neglect and abuse in churches which would be horrified at the mention of spiritual gifts. I do think it’s important that we not lose that perspective.

    Give thanks to the Lord, for He is good! His mercy and goodness endure forever. :)

    • I agree Claire. How can the Holy Spirit operate when believers’ services are planned and scheduled, leaving no room for Him to teach His people or experience the true gifts?! I know that we can still learn and get some benefit from those services, but it is very limited. I don’t miss church services much at all. Too restrictive!

  105. How can the Holy Spirit operate when believers’ services are planned and scheduled, leaving no room for Him to teach His people or experience the true gifts?!

    Well said. I totally agree. I’ve been in many service where the Spirit of God was quenched. This is really, really sad to me because so many people are hurting and desperately need His ministry.

  106. Craig, somehow I missed your most recent post when you posted it. I’ve just now seen it. You said:

    Now, going to the subject of the post (this is the reason I brought it up to begin with): If ‘praise’ is seen as a formula to bring about ‘God’s’ manifest presence and the ‘worship’ is repeating the same lyric (as in merely one word in some cases) with the same chord sequence or drone ad infinitum and ad nauseum, my contention is that false spirits are drawn rather than the Holy Spirit.

    I share these concerns. As a church musician of many years, though, I can honestly tell you that there are times when it seems the Spirit of God will direct a sensitive music leader to ‘rest’ or meditate on a certain song or phrase for a few minutes as He ministers to people through its message. It is my understanding that the word David used often in the Psalms — Selah — meant to do this too.

    IMHO, it all boils down to this: Is the Spirit of God leading, or not? He can (and does) do unexpected things sometimes. But there will always be decency and order in whatever He does, whether there is exuberance (as when David danced before the Lord) or whether a hush comes upon the place as He ministers very quietly. At any point along that spectrum, my main concern is that God be God, without human machinations or hindrance.

    Yes, I believe that false, counterfeit spirits can be drawn to a service, or may already be present in someone (in my experience, usually to distract from what God is doing or wants to do), and I also believe that human spirits can simply limit/hinder God, whether through fear, pride, unbelief, self-seeking, or any other motive. I’ve seen the latter far more than the former, though I’ve seen both.

  107. Thank you so much! I came out of WOF/prosperity gospel last September and the first thing I did was an intense bible study of who the Holy Spirit really is. I engaged in all the “drunkeness.” I was saved in January 2009 and when I moved to TX i just automatically went where my bio fam went. Thank the Lord that He led me and a dear friend I met out of it! I have this vision of what is going on in these churches. I cried my heart out to my bio mom about it and even though she says she agrees she still cannot pull away and has gotten further i to it (if that’s even possible). Anyway, to me I feel like if we put a face of the Holy Spirit, what these churches are doing is binding Jesus (not that that’s possible) and commanding God to perform. I wrote a poem about it…it’s really quite disturbing that people can be exposed to the truth, acknowledge it, but still choose to believe the lie. I also have not “prayed in tongues” since I left and don’t feel like I’m not “baptized in the Spirit.” in fact, I feel closer to God then I ever did in that mess…even after doing a year of their “Bible school.” Anyway, my ex church pastor is not big here (though he’d like to be..he’s very full of pride) but is quite well known in South Africa. His name is Theo Wolmarans and if you search him on youtube you can find a video of him giving a tongue and the interpretation..which we know is unbiblical, yet still people follow. Anyway, I’m glad I found you and all the other brothers and sisters in Christ who have come out of this deception. Have a blessed week!

    • Wow, Ashley. That is an incredible story. Praise God He lead you and your friend out. This is what many of us are still praying for and we are thrilled when we see it happen! What a stark contrast to the WOF/Charismania spirit and the Holy Spirit of God, huh? I know the study I did really opened my eyes too. They are not at all the same, but then, what is?

      Blessings, pop in anytime!

  108. Just sort of chiming here: The first time I ever saw Rodney Howard-Browne on TV years ago, I had not yet heard of the “laughing revival”; I had no preconceived ideas about him at all, and the people hosting the program apparently loved him. However, as he told about the “revival” (it was fairly new at that time), he kept laughing and laughing a very guttural laugh — it didn’t sound like a normal human laugh to me. To be honest, it sounded demonic. I didn’t say anything to anyone about this for a while, as I didn’t hear him or the “laughing revival” mentioned anywhere IRL for quite some time after that.

    I know the Lord gives us joy — absolutely! — but I also know that everything I see in His Word concerning revival is about repentance, confession of sin, getting right with God, often back on track after being away from Him for a time. I haven’t seen anything there which remotely resembles what RHB did and promoted. JMHO

    • Yes, I’ve seen RHB on TV a few times. He is quite rude and aggressive, much like Todd Bentley. In fact, right around the time of Lakeland RHB’s ministry issued a statement in regards to the moving of the Holy Spirit (not) there, that Brown had been there FIRST. Sounds like he wanted to make it clear to Bentley and his followers he was in his territory. Such pride and arrogance.

      Who needs the word of God when we can just laugh? I’ve seen this demonic hysteria displayed, along with drunkenness many times. It has nothing to do with an anointing or a gift and that laughter is not about joy, but possession.

      I agree with your points Claire! :)

  109. Completely agree about the laughter! The pastor would have special “Holy Ghost” services where the whole point was the laughter nonsense. Then if you were really caught up he’d call you up on stage to talk about it, then everyone would laugh with/at you then he’d touch you and you’d fall back down. I cannot believe i thought it was actually the Holy Spirit. Anyway, thank God He opened my eyes and ears :-) what’s also interesting is that the scripture that God kept pressing on me to start the process was the Fruit. You had mentioned that He brought that to you also. Anyway, thought that was an interesting tidbit!

  110. Hi there. I wrote to your last summer a few times about getting out of the “charismatic prophetic movement”. It has been over 2 years since I left. Am feeling better. Going to Twin Cities Fellowship here in Minnesota. Still trying to process the whole thing I guess. Am furious that I handed over the money to those pastors all those years. I really believed that I was robbing God if I did not give them 10% off my gross. Unbelievable. Some days I just want to write a letter to them and tell them they are liars and to give me back the money. They are deceived and deceiving others. Anyway I am writing to give you a website about the institutional church. Been reading about brainwashing and trying to figure out what has happened to my mind and altered states of consciousness. When I was in it I really really believed it was the Holy Spirit. Now I think of it as paranormal demonic activity. The great falling away from THE FAITH. The antichrist. A delusion. Just a bunch of hot air and waste of time and money. How did I ever end up there? Some days I just shake my head. At least the fear is gone.

    http:www.angelfire.com/in/HisName
    Page 7 to page 9 gives a nice explanation. It was like an addiction to drugs.
    Hope you are well. I periodically read your blog. See so much of my old self and old thought processes in the people who write. Staying in the WORD.
    In Christ,
    Ellen

    • Hi Ellen. Nice to hear from you. I believe there is a great amount of demonic activity going on in these churches and organizations called “ministries”. I know I have had quite a few discussions here and in other groups on what is and is not demonic possession. I have found it safe enough to say if it is not of God it has no place in our lives. So whether the manifestations and craziness truly is possession or oppression, the bottom line aside from word games is that it is not God. We will not find the true fruits of His Spirit in these areas! Glad you are out of this and the word of faith garbage. The power of God will restore you as you read and meditate on His word!

      Blessings! Be well! :)

  111. We are a few days away from sitting down our precious daughter who “married into” the New Apostolic Reformation.

    She was greatly used of God in meaningful ways before she started attending this church (New Day Community, Summerville, SC). Scripture is read but not expounded, just personal revelations are expounded upon. Now she acts high, like a doped up teen and sees bizarre visions everyday. I believe her husband has serious spirits all over him, there is an odd sensual way about him.

    She is planning on attending worship school at Bethel (Bill Johnson’s church) in Redding CA.

    There is a real rebellious air surrounding all this too, they see the manifestations as proof they are on the right track, “…it’s a blast you legalistic, Bible-worshipping geezers!”

    They also receive money out of nowhere, free phones, gift cards, jobs etc. Is God allowing the delusion through blessing or is Satan propping the whole nothing up? She looks at our struggles as if we are not right with God.

    My daughter used to rub shoulders with the likes of Chuck Smith, she has lead worship for many ministries including Summit Ministries, has given awesome Bible studies for young girls and now she looks and sounds like a loon.

    Please pray for us. We are about to confront the two of them about it all and they HATE anything negative as you may imagine. We feel we must tell our daughter to stay away from her two younger brothers…we are torn in pieces about all this.

    • I am so sorry to hear this news and yet I am glad they will be hearing the truth. It is a seed no matter if it is not accepted at first. I will pray it will be a seed of doubt for these practices that will take root and that your daughter will begin to cry out to the Most High for the truth. Keep praying, know that you are not alone in this battle or in your tears for the lost. God is faithful to bring his children to a right standing again with Him.

      Stay in touch.
      Blessings and prayers in Christ. Be at peace.

  112. Skip, I am praying for you and your family right now. I pray for God’s mercy on your daughter and son-in-law, that He might open their eyes to the Truth and set them free.

    Anytime I hear critical words like “Bible-worshipping”, red flags go up in my spirit. The Lord said that He has exalted His Word above His own name (Psalm 138). David’s psalm about the Word, Psalm 119, is replete with powerful statements which we would all do well to engraft into our hearts.

    One of my favorite is this one:

    “Order my steps in Thy Word, and let not any iniquity have dominion over me.”

    I often pray this prayer for myself. I will be praying this prayer for your family.

  113. Bless you both!

    It went well…it was good in the sense that my daughter is obviously conflicted about all of this still but the way my son in law responded surprised us. His eyelids kept closing when we spoke…? Never saw him do that before. He could not seem to grasp the idea of using scripture to discern the various things in this movement. He just kept repeating how he loves these people and how much fruit there is (healings, relationships, miracles etc.) and when we agreed that God is miraculous but we must discern by His word…eyes closed again and again. I have never seen him do that before.

    • I have been praying just that thing for your daughter, and I know others who have been too! As for the son in law, sounds like a form of hypnosis, the demonic, huh? Keep praying! This love they think they have for the people and this passion for “jesus” is not what they think it is. Still, the Lord delivers His own! Praise God!

      Blessings!

  114. I too am dealing with people from nar…my inlaws! on my wifes side…its all been the same rhetoric too about financial blessings and so on. however financial increase is no proof of God in fact 1st Tim 6:5 says Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thy self. its not about personal prophecy or visions its about that I might know him ,Jesus Christ! The common thing that I have seen in NAR people is they don’t know the word at all, period… some people make claims about “getting stuff” but a lot of that could be an exaggeration. or another example is when people state they are going to do something for God ( like go on a missions trip or go to some school)they tell people about it giving them a “hint hint” then later on people give and then you get stories of money coming out of no where. I would avoid striving about it and to pray because when get into it with someone deceived it gives them ammo to justify themselves…I have even got into it with my inlaws on facebook and it was a waste of time…Skip, I pray right now,,,, Father In the name of Jesus I ask and I pray that eyes of Skips daughter’s understanding would be enlightened that she will know the will of God and that she would know the voice of the Good Shepard Jesus Christ and the voice of a stranger she will not follow I thank you Lord that Skips daughter has an unction from the the Holy One and she knows all things and I ask you father that you cause her to know your voice again as she had in the past. In Jesus name amen and amen

  115. Great blog M’Kayla, I have found a huge amount of useful information. Both my wife and me were very involved in soaking and some of the weird manifestation that came with it. God opened my eyes and I am no longer involved in any of that, Praise God!!! My wife on the other hand is still involved and it is getting worse, but I know God and He will save her from that. I have a question though, my wife is also into all these fragrances, believing that a specific fragrance presents something supernatural, the list can be found on Kathy Walter’s website. Every time she smells perfume for example, she believes “Jesus” is there. What is your opinion on these fragrances, I find it all a bit weird?

  116. Thanks for the truth. I once years ago had an anointed pt or and wife pray for me and I fell and broke my wrist. They never had anyone behind me or even acted co cerned. Well this took me to God desperately asking what just happened in church. I forgave …stopped going to fanicatical meetings and dove into the Word of God to heal me. Yes, we really need to test the spirits.

    • OUCH! I got pushed down when I wouldn’t fall on my own. There was no catcher and I hit my tail bone on a very hard floor. Was in pain for some time.

  117. i fell on the floor and hurt myself too. and many a time i felt people find that “special spot” in the upper forehead that tips you off balance. yet on the other hand, i had a dear and trusted friend – whom i prayed for many a time and several of those times – when i spoke a clearer word to her need – she would crumble like ashes under the lightest touch of my hand – straight down and never backward – without anyone to catch her. every time i checked for her well being – she said – “this happens whenever the Lord does something special and i have never been hurt in the slightest.” – btw. M’Kayla i now worship the Lord at HOME with the word and pray with a couple of trusted friends. i have suffered serious TREMORS in face and hands and sometimes even full body since my “church” experiences. since i also take medications for things which have that as a side effect the roots are not sure – i am having further motion testing done at the hospital this fall. what do you think – ever hear of TREMORS being a “hangover” from ministry at the churches of bethel type?? love to hear your views on this. blessings from Canada, mary

    • Mary, I don’t believe that God puts people on the floor because there is no evidence of this in the bible. It is either demonic or a conditioned response/expectation of the person who falls.

      As far as the tremors, they sound like a continued manifestation, but getting medical advice is a great idea, too so that we can rule out illness or side effects from the meds you are on.

      I have heard some scary things resulting from false teaching, sozo, etc., and people needing psych drugs as a result, which to me is demonic in that situation. No one receiving healing from the Lord would need meds after the fact. But, this goes to show the level of deception and that it effects sound reasoning. A few months ago I heard of someone committing suicide too. We are seeing some serious results which show how dangerous this teaching truly is.

      Let me know what the docs say, and we can go from there.

  118. thanks for the quick reply as always M’Kayla. i am so curious too to hear the doc’s report. i was diagnosed as bipolar in my teens- some 40 years ago. most meds i have taken are for that. the specialist i see for that suspects that the tremors (which are also connected to long term use to a drug i was on for over 13 years) – are caused by meds. i didn’t get into my “adventures” into anything else with him. oddly enough – when i went to “church” for prayer it was for the bipolarity – and i shook like a trembling leaf in the wind for most of the rest of the day – and ever since then ( July 1st- a year ago now) it has become progressively worse – with no other med able to remove it. my close prayer partner and i have prayed about removal of any “by products” causing this from the “churches”. apparently the testing i am in for takes a good three hours and i will have plenty to exhibit now – my mouth and tongue squirms around, hands shake quite a lot – to the point of food falling from utensils, etc

    as for the falling on the ground – my friend included – i agree. no falling in the bible. as for the shakes – not in the bible either – i don’t think.

    i will keep you posted. keeping me close in prayer, but limited socially which is cramping my style and my ability to have a job. :( i quit three years ago. do you have any comments on bipolarity?? the meds i am on now for that have been tremendous in enabling sleep and regular hours, with productivity and balanced mood for a continuing period now – and this for the first time in decades….it has indeed been a journey. i am also diabetic type 2 with neuropathy in my feet ( new med last week for that -so far so good) and fibromyalgia – just sort of used to the aches and pains of that.

    thanks for your concerns, and appreciate your feedback and honesty. appreciate prayer anytime,
    blessings, mary

    • Mary, I think it is a good idea to have the docs evaluate your meds. Personally, I go back and forth as to the need for them, but everyone needs to decide that for themselves and I don’t judge that. I can say from personal experience there things that I suffer from, have been on meds for, but no longer am. I submit my bouts of depression and panic attacks to the Lord. I do take herbs for the panic when I need them because they affect my ability to focus and it does help. A much better choice for me than an rx because they are taken on an as needed basis, usually only once per day, a few times a week. I take them when I am facing new challenges because that is when they appear. I’ve prayed quite often about these attacks and have experienced a noted lessening. This is the reason I encourage the same for others!

      As to the tremors, you have noted the connection between them and the meds. The curious part is they worsened after the “prayer”. For me, this indicates the demonic because no way would God worsen the condition. I would look into that with the Lord – and I have prayed for you in this today. All you need is to get with Him and the word and I know He will reveal the truth. Again, from personal experience the manifestations continued to occur after I repented on a much lesser degree. Some were of satan, and some were “conditioned”. Either way I submitted to God and they stopped. The ones I felt come from my own mind I laughed at and told myself “stop!” and they did.

      You have a lot going on. I did spend some time on your behalf in prayer this morning, for all these things, and for the will of the Lord to be done in your life. I have no doubt the Lord will bring you exactly to where He wants you to be. And be encouraged, as you already know, these things are allowed in our lives to strengthen our spiritual being and trust in Him. I think oftentimes the blessing comes in knowing that, experiencing these things first hand.

      (((prayer and love to you)))

  119. what is “sozo” – the reason i ask is because just as i was entering this last church – so was the influences from bethel church in redding, via speakers, guest visitors, etc. no doubt they were bringing some of their stuff to me that day. the girl who prayed for me did two things: she sang over me “in the spirit” and she told me to express to the Lord my heart. to which came out of me ” i want more of You ( fully meaning the Lord JESUS)….i shudder to think what i opened the door to as i began to vibrate to the point where i could barely stand. i noticed later several others in that gathering also exhibited that intense shaking of the hands with bent elbows raised to the skies. sigh :(
    mary

    • Mary,

      SOZO is an inner healing method originating from “new age” which has entered the apostate church and used in healing rooms all over the world, and bethelized churches. It has nothing to do with true Christianity, but taken from methods and practices of people who are not Christians, aka inner child healing, memory healing and the like. It is very dangerous. I was trained in it and also went thru several of my own sessions and the result bordered on my own madness. SOZO is very powerful, and it is not the Lord’s healing, but a playground for demons to gain ground of operation in a person’s life. We are wrong to think that a Christian cannot be taken over by demons. When we give our will over to tactics such as these, not being grounded in the word, operating outside the leading of the Holy Spirit, we will find ourselves overtaken by them, chasing after the next experience and the next, as a drug, as an idol. I do believe it will leave to possession because there is a marked and definitive parting from the Lord. In addition, lease be very careful and quick to go to the Lord in what this woman “sang” over you if you haven’t already.

      If you search my blog I have a couple of quick articles on it, as does Closing Stages which you will find under my blog roll. Any specific questions I can answer let me know. I’ve been saying for over a year that I was going to put together some writing on it, but haven’t. Still, the Lord brings people to me to ask about it, so the word gets out that way. :)

  120. many thanks dear friend. i shall seek the Lord on the matter with bible in hand and wait on Him for clarity. i trust Him to deal with all that concerns me – and am aware He knows the whole adventure – past, present and future. keep you posted, blessings mary <3

  121. very informative about SOZO – exactly what i was exposed to. someone there once asked me if i had ever attempted suicide – (in front of everyone) – to which i honestly answered “yes”- barefacing myself. i was then told to repent allowed in front of them all, which i also did – i thought it to be a word of knowledge. i now think it was all more of a “cult atmosphere”. i just ( for the first time) prayed specifically about the “singing woman” – and gave it to the Lord for clarity. i did repent for seeking “experiential shortcuts to see the spectacular” instead of being obedient to His constant proddings to me to “read the word and pray” – many times over the years. to me “tingles and electricity” HAD to be God. now that is all i do, shake. i have asked Him to break the bondage and any ties to the demonic i have partnered with/agreed to – and forgive me for making an idol of any manifestations.
    once again, many thanks, especially for the prayer, blessings mary.

  122. Hello I am just reading your blogs and many things are barring great witness with me but I am finding myself wondering what is that has brought you to think that bethel I false! I have listened to many messages by bill johnson and been extremely blessed and found much spiritual wisdom applicable for my growth and walk with the new season of my life. So can you please inform me! Thank you so much

    • Tiffany, my blog and the links show over and again how it is BJ is a false teacher. Open your bible and compare his words with God’s and you will see the difference.

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  124. I think we all want to see revival. But will it happened, that is the next question. When our spirit is revived we witness different manefestations of the spirit. But what we are witnessing is it truly of the spirit or is it of the flesh. We can ask ourself why isnt God moving like he did in times past. Joel olsteen is from the word of faith persuation. But hands out the word of god like it is candy. We must turn away from sin and turn to christ. Where is the alters in the church. Church has become a place to have coffie and cupcakes. To dress anyway you want and if the true word is preached it offends you and “Im not coming back their again” Im going to go to a church with a spoon fed gospell. The preachers who prostitute the gospell and give you a coffie cup with 21 proclmations are giving you nothing. All the while they are laughing to the bank. We recently left a word of faith church after 16 yrs. I can honestly say that now I am very carefull what I listen to. God is the same yesterday today and forever and doesnt change. He is not taken by suprise because it is the same thing that approached adam and eve in the garden! Here is a quick accid test to decern if it is from the Holy Spirit. Does it lift up jesus or man. enough said.

  125. NOW THE SPIRIT SPEAKETH EXPRESSLY, THAT IN THE LATTER TIMES SOME SHALL DEPART FROM THE FAITH GIVING HEED TO SEDUCING SPIRITS, AND DOCTRINES OF DEVILS; (Timothy 4:1) It is no supprise that today the church is being bombarted by so many false publications. When I did accid, and other allusigenics Back when it was the age of aquarious.Not unlike today that the church is fastly approaching what the bible says, “will I find faith when I return.” I have never read the shack but people today our adopting what is in that novel. Why must we always belooking for something outside the bible to fulfill our walk with god. The word of faith basicly says that if you find a scripture in the bible that if you speak faith filled words like god did when he created the world you to can shape your own destiny by using these scripture. This is nothing more that witchcraft. When witches cast a spell they are using their faith filled words also. We gave a mother and her baby a ride home the other day from walgreens. They had no car and it was cold. When asked her if she was a christian she said sure Im a sothern baptist but my husband is a witch. I respect his religion. The Word Twisters today are feeding the body of christ Threw differnent media outlets and one said if what I say is not true may my tounge cleave to the roof of my mouth. Some day it will but not right now. This may be harsh but isnt the bible harsh at times When warning us. We need a wake up call today because as a whole we are asleep. There are so many schesims and false voices in the church today and the sleeping giant must awake before the United Sates becomes like China. Warning!!!!

  126. Please….I live in Redding. I am aware of much demon influence in my life, starting long before I got into this. Do you know of any group specializing in deliverance that can help me. I love God, but no longer go to church. I need deliverance from some evil stuff, and I need a group of believers I can have true fellowship with and worship with. PLEASE!!!
    -Gloria omega (numeral) seven alpha at yahoo dot com.

    • Gloria, speaking from personal experience, you do not need a group of people specializing in deliverance. Usually these groups operate out of a grandiose belief they possess certain gifts and power that others do not. All you need my dear is the cleansing forgiveness of the One who bought your salvation in the first place. All you need is Jesus. So I strongly suggest you go to Him in prayer with your need. Dig into the bible and let the word of God establish, strengthen and settle you. Still, I am here for you as well.

      Hebrews 4: 12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

      14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens,e Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin. 16Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

      Peace to you. :)

  127. Hi
    I’ve been searching for answers about something I recieved in 2010. I came across your blog about an hour ago. So I have been trying to find someone to talk about this and have found no one. I thought I’d share my expierince and you could give me your view on it.
    In 2010 I had this expirence with Jesus, never told anybody. If I tried they thought I was nuts. So at that time I wasn’t reading the bible and recieved these words. I got 10 pages, and it says..I am Jesus Christ the lord repent onto my father God..etc. So for awhile I was flipped out, I started to read the bible. I found in this one scripture where it says, if it says Jesus is in spirit then it not of
    God, for Jesus is of the flesh not spirit.
    I posted some of these words on sites and people have responded..”have you tested the spirits lately”
    Anyway, even though I recieved those words, I didn’t really do anything with them. The spirit or entity wanted me to make it into a book and give it to people. I tried, and every attempt failed. Imagine that….
    Since then, it has got me intersted in Jesus and God. I have been a Buddhist for many years praying to a scroll. I got rid of the scroll, and stopped praying sanskrit.
    I have been since.. 2010, repenting, reading the bible daily, and praying directly to Jesus and God. From this my life has gotten better. I am growing more away from this world, as I no longer desire to sin, or have material things, or worry about my job. I have found that the more I read, the more I pray, the more I come closer to God.
    I feel we are getting to the end of days, and the tribulation is beginning and the book of revelations is the truth. Of course, it’s really hard to tell people about this, cause no body wants to hear it.
    I was wondering why that happened with that writing from that spirit just to get me into Jesus and God.
    So I prayed today after two years about the reason for this bogus writing..the message I got was, for many will come in my name, and lots will be decieved.
    I don’t understand why a entity from whatever dimension even being a demon would encouage someone to go find Christ..

    Thanks for listening..

    .

    • A demon wouldn’t encourage a person to seek out the Lord. A demon would pretend to be the Lord with false doctrine and signs. Your salvation story is amazing and I am thankful that you have found Christ and are walking with Him. When someone says to test the spirits it means to test the message against the word of God. Any message must line up with the full counsel of the word of God, not just one scripture. Unfortunately, many do not do this and are led astray for indeed many have come in His name. When the disciples asked Christ of the signs of His coming the first thing He did was to warn them that they not be deceived – Matthew 24.

  128. Linda,
    I think the passage you were quoting is from 1 John 4: By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God.
    The error the Apostle is addressing is that of the Gnostics, a cult that was around in his days (and is still around today as new age beliefs) . It was a group that believed the body and everything material is bad, and they thought that Jesus was not really a human being of flesh and blood like you and me but a Spirit who merely seemed human. The passage refutes those who deny the Incarnation. It doesn’t really say that Jesus can’t show up and speak to people these days.
    Jesus spoke to Paul on the road to Damascus, and Paul saw a strong light that left him blind. But Paul didn’t see Jesus in flesh and blood then.
    I believe many many “apparitions” from Jesus in modern days fail the test of comformity to Scripture. Most of them are false because of that reason. But in your case, if the fruit of the experience you’ve had has led you to true repentance and salvation, it is possible that you did have an encounter with the true Jesus of the Bible.
    I strongly encourage you to continue testing the spirits. Keep comparing each thought, intuition, revelation against what you know of the Bible. Seek counsel from people who have more experience and have studied the Bible in depth. And don’t take anything for granted. Sometimes it’s better to be a bit skeptical of anything spectacular until you really feel at peace that it matches what you know of God and what is revealed to us in the Word.

  129. Linda,
    Another thought on this….

    Consider the posibility that this “spirit” was instructing you to do something outside of what the Bible says. Remember from the Bible we know that demons also recognize the children of God in Jesus Christ. So, you were repenting and coming to the gospel. That part is awesome and is absolutely the Holy Spirit. Praise God for that! This is just my opinion, but, the other stuff….writing down things and passing them to others…I would say is outside of scripture. If it had been the Bible that you were told to hand out, I might think differently. What you were instructed to do could discourage you in a number of ways:

    –things don’t happen the way the “spirit” said, and you turn away from Jesus, because you had believed that message was from him.

    –you experience so much ridicule from people for something outside of the Bible, that you turn away from the truth. (example, Harold Camping, who was predicting the end of the world, had at least one follower commit suicide when it didn’t occur as they believed and there are documented examples of other really bad effect….including people falling away from Jesus, because He “let them down”.)

    –pull you into a “works” based idea of salvation that keeps you from truly experiencing peace and joy in Him.

    –create a sense of elitism in you (i.e., I am the only one who knows this is truth), and keep your faith in Jesus from bearing fruit for his Kingdom (it doesn’t sound like this has happened to you, but I have witnessed it in others)

    For example, if we aren’t entering into a final tribulation; would what you had been telling people have you really discouraged in 5 years…in 10 years….in 40 years? During the Black Plague, 1/3 to 1/2 of the world’s population died. That was hundreds of years ago. Many people thought they were right at the end of time; but God took away the hand of judgment and kept things going. Each of us can die any day, and then judgment day has come for us; so the true believing Christian should be living like any day could be IT. “Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is near!” is a message that all Christians for all time have proclaimed.

    God will keep you safely in His Word, who is Jesus Christ in the flesh. He sanctifies us by the power of His Word which is truth. Praise God for working that truth in your heart!

  130. Well after my Jesus experience this entity or demon appeared as a gray form matter in the shape of Jesus and asked to write a book. It could of been a demon cause at the time I didn’t have a relationship at all with Christ or God. But when I moved here from a city, on this land way far away which is a state with not much population, I stood one day outside my house as the neighbor said, “this is a very special place” and I looked over to the hills to see a vision of the sermon on the mount and I looked at her, and she smiled. I looked back and it was gone. I didn’t know why I was shown that, so I started doing research on God and Jesus. I then had the Jesus experience a few months later, the the entitiy appeared about the writing. The more I look at the writing, it doesn’t match up and this morning I found that scripture in John about the anti Christ subject.
    I saw two more visions around that time of stars falling to earth, another of a large comet with a tail going across the sky. Oh and my lightning thing… about 6 months ago I was online reading Christians sharing and I read a sentence that someone said..in this form..ITS THE END OF THE WORD! as soon as I read it, it started raining. I walked out to the living room to look out in my driveway and it poured real hard and a lightning bolt hits this tree and splits it with wood flying everywhere. It was like seconds after I read the sentence, what timing..
    There are signs that we are shown, but I’m still glad I’m on this path. Thanks for listening.

    • Linda
      I am glad you came on that scripture because it bothered me all day at work that I didn’t address it with you in my first comment. I am glad to see that my other readers are doing just that and are giving you some great biblical advice! Thanks guys! xoxox So to add to the scripture Cari put up and to provide a bit of clarity in the area of confessing Christ, see 2 John 9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. The reason why I posted this is to show the connection that first one must confess Christ and then must continue in the truth of the doctrine of Christ. We have many, many false teachers and prophets who are widely followed that speak of Christ being the Son of God but after that point, they turn and preach a completely different doctrine. I know this is not your experience, but I wanted to point that out to you to show the connection between the two scriptures and also provide a connection for others reading who struggle with coming to terms on how to test spirits and how to weed out false teachers who so blatantly use the name of the Lord and do not know Him. So here you are seeing how to connect scripture, that it interprets itself in a manner of speaking. We never stand on one scripture for truth. So, we can also apply this to your situation in dealing with these experiences you are having which takes me to the next point in your comment – the gray form of “jesus”.

      Jesus would never appear in gray form. The reason being is that He is called The Light! I guess we were told not to make images so that we wouldn’t be easily misled into thinking we are seeing the Messiah – Christ so easily. We go by what we think He looks like, when we really do not know for certain. But Christ is not gray, the color which implies darkness – He is the light of the world John 3:19, John 8:12, Revelation 21:23.

      The things I and my readers have been involved with in the past, and are quite experienced in dreams and visions. This is where we must test things. God can speak to us in those ways, but so can Satan. So, we must be careful.

      I am thrilled that you chose my blog to share your experiences because it not only gives us a chance to learn and grow together, but also gives us a chance to give glory back to God. I am in awe that He is taking you through these things and that the leading of the Holy Spirit is showing you the truth and the error. See John 14, 15, 16. This truly is a walk of the children of God. I am thrilled for you!

  131. That’s right …Jesus us not a gray form.. He is as bright as the sun, that you can look at without getting blind, yet you know its as bright as the sun, and he lets the bliss feeling of Love so strong go all through your body, something you can’t explain. The purest Love I ever felt, never felt anywhere else through anything pysical on this earth. There’s a knowing he gives you in your heart that its him, a famaliar knowing like this strong bond of someone you know and are close to. That’s what the real Jesus is. I don’t think any demon can mock that or produce that, it is not capable of such Love or light. Described perfectly in that one scripture where Jesus walks with these two appostles up in this secluded place then changes to light in front of them
    Yeah it is known that demons willl appear as angels of light, but the’yre like a ight bulb only fake. I believe we are entering the tribulation, and I was reading about the different churches mentioned in revelations at the beginning, how they represent groups of people that will either be here or survive the tribulaton.
    However I do think that God shows us, his children things like it is said at the end of days God wil give visions, dreams to men and women. I tired to share my experience on other sites and people just ignored me. So here I’m happy that people here at least will listen and respond and give their feedback. Because I’m llooking for people to talk about this and it just goes over ppls head. Thanks all! for your input, and for this place.
    Oh one more thing,, I read recently somewhere that this guy says to let the holy spirit burn your sins away for 10 minutes in the fire. I find the most interesting sites and ppl have these different ways, but how can one let the holy fire burn your body so you can become pure.
    Here’s his writing from his site:

    The Holy Spirit pointed
    out to me that are very important.
    First say, please forgive (repent) all
    my sins till the second of the rapture.
    Then it is very important for us to be
    totally submerged in the holy fire of
    The Lord for a full 10 minutes that
    will burn all residue of sin away.

    can you burn away your sins with holy fire?

    thanks again..

    • Hi Linda.
      First, let me apologize for the delay in approving and responding to your comment. I wanted to take the time to consider the things you have written here and I spent some time today doing just that.

      I want to warn everyone reading this. We must be very careful of these visions of Jesus. I don’t see anywhere in the bible that we are told He would visit us, or if/when He did how He would look to us, or how His presence would feel. I do see many, many warnings of spiritual deception and Jesus’ own warning in Matthew 24 to the disciples. These warnings we have discussed over and again on my blog so I won’t go into them now. I will be happy to answer questions along those lines. I will again point out that yes, these deceiving spirits can be quite convincing. If not, there would be no need to warn against them. Remember, our answer is always according to the word of God. So, yes, we are told that there will be dreams and visions, but again, we must test them according to the word.

      Linda, you mentioned the transfiguration of Christ (Luke 9:28-36, Mark 9:2-10, Matthew 17:1-9) and I believe if you would take a closer look at these scriptures you would see that event in a clearer way. You will also notice that Jesus urged his followers to tell no one of what they had seen until after His death. Just after the transfiguration we are told that Jesus met up with a man whose son was demon possessed. Jesus cast the demon out of the child. I believe the scripture was written this way to show again that Christ is the Son of the Most High God, first in the wording from God – “This is My Son…” and then the display of power.

      Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; – - I believe it was mentioned that Jesus is the word (see John 1). Hebrews 1:3 who being the brightness of His glory and teh express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right had of the Majesty on high, – so here we are told that Jesus is seated next to God. Remember Linda – context, context!

      1John 1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life – 2 The life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us – 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4These things we write to you that your joy may be full. – - Here it is important to note the writings are done by those who saw Christ, those who had first hand experiences with Him, who attest to what He was. This is important.

      Let me add, there is a belief out there that God can do anything He wants. I believe this is true. But I don’t believe He does things that are outside His word. It is the only way we have to prove if what we see, hear, dream, etc. is truly of Him. There are many who hold to that idea that God can do anything, therefore He did this….but it is dangerous. There are many deceiving spirits who are quite powerful. I know this because I was led by one for a time.

      There are also many false teachers and prophets who will say that the Holy Spirit to them this or that. Again, we need the word of God. So if this person is stating the Holy Spirit told him that a fire was needed to remove sin, I would ask that person where in the scripture does it say that? I did some searching and found these on sin and forgiveness –
      1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
      Proverbs 28:13 He who covers his sins will not prosper, But who ever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy.
      Ephesians 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
      Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

      So, accordingly, forgiveness comes out of confession of sin, not sitting under a holy fire. Now, there are scriptures that refer to being purified through a fire, or a refiner’s fire. But, I believe this to be an example of the result of following the Lord, rejecting the world and it’s ways, being true to what we believe, the life of an overcomer. But, this thing about sitting under a fire for 10 minutes, sorry, gotta have a chuckle at the time there. How did he come up with 10 minutes? What is time to God? Stay away from this man. He is greatly confused, he is a deceiver and has nothing to offer you but more of the same of this false god.

      One more thing about the visions of Jesus. in Acts 1:9-11 consider the direction given to the disciples after the departing of Jesus into heaven. – 9Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” – - The next time Jesus is to be seen is publicly, in this way. These are the basic scriptures that helped me understand that Jesus does not appear to people. I know that can be shattering, it was to me, but just because this is true does not remove His love for us. If you read the accounts throughout the bible of men who saw angels and messengers of the Lord they were all filled with fear. They had to be stood on their feet again, and comforted, each and every time.

      Remember, John 20:29 – Jesus said to him. “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

  132. Yes, the gray “Jesus” looks definitely suspicious. But it’s awesome how God turned what seems to have been an attempt to mislead you from truth into a true search for the Jesus in Scripture, the real one.
    I was wondering about your background before you came to the Lord. Did you dabble in the occult? Did you have any previous experience with tarot cards, seances, witchcraft, astrology or any other new age practice? Because this kinds of visions tend to come to people who are involved in such things. I have a cousin who is very into these things and once he told his mum that he had conversations with and visions of the Virgin Mary, Jesus and the archangel Michael. So that could be an explanation of why you had those visions.

    • Cari, a great question to ask. To that I would add, if there has been any agreement in prayer, laying on of hands, etc. to receive a special “gift”, aka, “impartation” that has grown so big in charismania. These are important things to consider, Linda. Remember, we are free in Christ. Any spirit bothering you is not welcome and must flee at your command in His name. Must.

  133. M’ kayla is absolutely right – anytime the devil can get Jesus to be misrepresented – he will.. There is no deception he would not stoop too.. He knows exactly what Jesus looks like & he knows the scriptures better than any of us.. The word of God says he Prowls round like a lion waiting to see who he can devour..

    this is why we must be so very careful with dreams & visions- right now there is a lot of supernatural activity being promoted, even by the church which gets people into altered states of conciousness — the same when you’re asleep.. anything recieved from God on that basis needs to be very thoroughly considered against the full counsel of the word of God…

    if in doubt – chuck it out….

  134. The devil is a liar and never changes. God’s word is true and never changes.
    Who are we going to believe? Don’t walk by feelings. Walk by faith. If we stand firmly in faith we will stand. If we do not stand firmly in faith, we won’t stand at all.

  135. Hi. I will be interviewing one of the key figures in the charismania movement and would love to e-mail with you as a resource for questions and answers that are in the word. I don’t want to put any details here but would love to e-mail with you. If that is acceptable, please reply by e-mail!

    Thank you,

    -Still in “recovery” from Charismania

    • VW, the best way to get information is to do your own research. I will be happy to help if you get more specific on what it is that you are looking for. Feel free to ask right here on the blog. You will get more input that way.

  136. This is very helpfull. When you realise that you have been deceived , you become confused and some times you lose hope to the extent of thinking of giving up. Thank you for the post. This one ting i ask pliz let me know the name of your church.

    • shingie, I haven’t attended a church for about a year and a half and I don’t intend to. Welcome to my blog. Our God, LOrd and Savior does mighty things!

  137. Psalm 91 King James Version (KJV)

    1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
    2 I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
    3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
    4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.

    5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;

    6 Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.

    7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
    8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
    9 Because thou hast made the Lord, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
    10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
    11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
    12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
    13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.
    14 Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.
    15 He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.
    16 With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.

  138. M’Kayla- I’ve tried to read most of these posts here, but I’m behind by a couple of years ;) I come back and keep reading and reading, sometimes unsure of why I’m drawn to keep reading. I have been reading my bible as well by the way.

    I feel somewhat led to not attend church myself. Once I realized of the deception I was in, I immediately went back to my First Baptist Church comfort zone. But having gone to several meetings the last couple of months, I’m seeing that the deception is there as well.

    “People are getting healed, some charismatics are attending the sunday school and people are impressed with what they have to say, the pastor said something about a revival breaking out in Korea, which got me all upset on the inside.”

    Ummmm….my biggest problem with leaving a church is that I have such small Children. I know if I put my mind to it, I could teach them what they need at home in order for them to come to know the Lord, but I still have my concerns. I feel more safe going to church and getting help there with my children. I feel perfectly comfortable reading my bible, blogging and coming to your blog, or finding sermons (usually from your blog) that help me to continue to grow.

    I know, I know….I should just pray and ask God for wisdom here.

    Thanks for letting me babble.

    -Char

    • Char, I would think that your children would find the same comfort in the simplicity of personal bible reading and prayer as you do. Besides, you don’t want to see them caught up in false religion, do you?

      We make it harder than it has to be.

      Thanks for the comment! Be comforted in the Lord.

  139. N.B I got to your blogger after reading about a man ” deliverance from extreme metabolism ” or so. Most of the Rhetoric question you asked above. Your post are things I have askedself.
    .,………………………..,….. . …

    I read some of your post o word press ( regarding Kundalini )

    I gave my life to Jesus 3 years ago, I remember one day meeting a man online d help told me the lord (I don’t believe it was the Living God ) ask him to tell me to fast 5 days ad he prayed for me over the interest. after that was crying while he prayed and started feeling like drips of oil falling from my head I prayers or randomly.

    To cut log story short…. I continued I so many new age church without knowing, false doctrines, everyone laid hands on me and started having strange dreams (those use to have some good dreams, )

    last year good dreams stoped, then faced allot of spiritual ad physical attacks, the now started feeling coldish feelings around my body till date, been repenting ad renouncing things and felt the True Living God has forsaking and cast me out, so went into drinking, tried hard to commit adultery with other women, but I always fail or run away from them.

    I felt god has forsaking me, cos no longer had dreams that I realise the Living God was using to warn me (like seeing Israel army fighting foes or standing and being friendly with enemies etc)

    But seeing mark of the beast in dream and dark things, and finally during deliverance last year, the pastor praying over cancelling the mark of antichrist upon me (though never told him about seeing all that in my dream before prayers)

    Am still praying and seeking God and am hanging on a little hope that He Jesus Christ of Nazareth will come through and restore me.

    Also not to forget seeing so many 1 or triples 1 at times.

    God bless you bro Job Austra

    • yefet
      1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
      Let me encourage you to spend much time in the word to restore your mind to the right thinking that can only come from the Lord. He is faithful to forgive and to restore, so put your faith in that truth. Forget feelings or emotions because they can be a trap for us. I’ve learned this the hard way myself. Cling to the truth found written in the pages of scripture and give yourself over to prayer and worship.

      Stay in touch!

  140. “Cling to the truth found written in the pages of scripture and give yourself over to prayer and worship.” AMEN!

    After I was born again and facing all kinds of false doctrines and testing of various sorts, NO ONE told me to just stick to the Word of God and test everything against it. It is so simple, isn’t it? Jesus Christ is the Word of God made flesh…we cling to Him/He dwells in us.

    Thanks for saying it again, M’Kayla. yefet…God is Faithful and True even when men are not. To paraphrase M’Kayla, trust what God has to say about Himself as documented in His Holy Word…test everything (even your dreams) against this. You are already set free in Christ Jesus, if you believe.

  141. Thaks so ,much for your response.. I have started Listening to audio Bible ( NKJV ) Mostly at night while asleep or in the morning. I have kept on prayers, I lost my passion to worship while going throuygh all this but am sure the Living God will restore my Garment of Worship in Jesus name.

    I still experience the dark dreams, but I hardly or do ot give them any meaning but will Trust in Jesus Christ.

    Thanks for all your coments God bless you.

  142. Hope to bless anyone for the Lord Jesus Christ! A number have brought up Bethel in Redding. I had a neighbor who’s boyfriend was leadership. What I tell is horrible-Bethel assisted in kidnapping my daughter w/ illegal papers and she was sent to Second Mile Charity tied church and even used this to manipulate prophecy when they had a hand in it. They also tried to pay my dad 100% to lie on healing. I did not regularly attend Bethel though and notice suttle twisting of scripture. After what happen to my daughter I found out a high ranking Priory Magus admitted being behind infiltrating charismania- -I do not have time to tell my entire story. Run from this ministry!! These people involved accessed my preadoption records and confused w/ my birth mom-they tried to “prophecy” when they had foreknowledge. They also tried to frame me as a drug dealer, tampered w/ my car, slandered me, also attempted murder on me several times.

  143. First time here. I tend to agree with your comments on healing and prophecy. My son was instantly healed of a bleeding skin condition 40 years ago. One day he had it, free ever since. But your site has a VERY negative overall teaching/view of healing/prophecy. I am certainly aware of events in churches and lives attributed to God, but are not. Your site leaves the impression that if your are deceived, you may not even be a Christian, and to examine your relationship to God. It is not what you write that is wrong, but your over emphasis on what Satan does. Yes, there is a lot of healing and prophecy in the church that is not of God, but please make it abundantly clear that if you seek Him, you will find Him, His ways, and His truth. Emphasize what God is and does. I currently attend a church that permits children to pray for the sick, the elders do not even monitor the kids (hard for me to understand why). But God wants me to stay in this church because He has a plan of correction and redemption for this body. Every Christian and church has areas where they can continue to grow, learn, and be corrected.
    Nuf said. God bless
    ps looks like you are in Astoria. Maybe I’ll look you up. I’m on the coast.
    Jim C

    • Jim in Newport
      I started this blog to help others come out of the crazy and false teachings that I had been a part of. If you think helping others out of false teaching is negative, then that is your opinion. I will ask what you do with the many, many scriptures where God calls for the same. Negative?

      No, I am not in Astoria.

    • Jim, you also say that God wants you to stay in a church…that is what…false??? Please research, read your bible and find a scripture that would assure you God has actually told you that. God calls us out, not in, regardless of the building. We are part of a “church” not made with hands. I hear this same thinking often and I cannot figure out why people think God is so wishy-washy that He would actually want one of His blood bought children to be at risk of further deceit and spiritual manipulation. We are called to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, are we not? If a Christian is deceived, is he really a Christian? Can we follow Christ, thru the leading of the Holy Spirit and still follow Satan? And yes, we will find Him when we seek Him. The problem is many are seeking another “jesus” as we have been so warned of in scripture.

  144. First of all I want to say that finding this site a couple years ago was blessing especiall the above article “FreedomFrom False Spirits of Revival” I am unfortunately quite framilliar with many of the people mentioned in these blogs who are promoting the prophetic movement. I will keep this short right now but may share more of my story another time. I recall when reading M’Kayla’s story I could relate on much of what what was written. I came out of the movement and the church I had attended for several years about 3 years ago. I have done much research during and a couple of time since and realizing not only how far this has spread but also tracing back how far back and how the deception goes. When I left the church that was pretty entrenched in this movement I sought out another church who was not into that movement at all but still operated in the gifts of the spirit, my thinking was anything less would be like a dead church and I didn’t want that. Well right now I am at a point of drawing back even from that church, basicly feeling like I just need to seek the truth and the true Lord Jesus Christ. I also have been struggling with not knowing where I am with the Lord, like have I ever really been truly saved? I know that I had received a false Jesus somewhere over the past 19 years and since being involved in the prophetic movement that I had received the kundalini spirit. I am not saying this because of the research I have done, it’s more like the research had in MANY ways confirmed the experiences I had, suspicions/red flags I ignored because I was afraid of judging and much of the spiritual warfare I had gone through whereas at the time I did not know what was going on, but thought I was constantly being attacked because I was such a “mighty warior for the Lord”. Now I look back an see it all differently. I have been thinking about seeking a home church. One of my hesitations on leaving the church I have been currenly attending is my son (16), I donl’t want him to think that I am a flake by up and leaving this church too. Feeling really lost lately, just not sure of I am a lost sheep or goat! I have been seeking the Lord in his word and sometimes get excited by what I am finding/ understanding but also often I get concerned at what I find because I think and wonder what have I been doing all these 19 years I have called myself a christian. Why havn’t I takin the word more seriously and litterally

    • Deut. 4:29 “But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul.

      I have no doubt the Lord will lead you as you seek Him. Our interest and desire cannot be for a “church”. So many of them have gone bad, and it is risky to attempt becoming involved with another so quickly. I know we need fellowship, but above and beyond, we need pure, uninterrupted fellowship with our Lord to bring us back to Him and to establish right thinking. Your son will understand when you explain it to him. He is old enough. Stay in touch!!!

  145. Crystal,

    When our family left the Word of Faith “church”, my teenage son was upset. The kids at the church had been nice to him and welcomed him in, unlike another church we had attended in which he was bullied.

    Different times he would ask me if we could go back, until we sat down with open Bibles and talked about some of the things going on in that church. I showed him Bible passages that contradicted much of what we were seeing. We got past the “yes, but the people were nice” faze pretty quickly. The Word of God is sharper than any two edged sword after all. As he has matured in faith and grown in the Word, he has developed a better understanding of what was wrong. Now he prays that God will deliver his former friends out of that bondage. And he thanks his Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for getting him away from it.

    I can’t speak to your current church, but I can tell you to really pray hard and consider those red flags you are seeing. Children are impressionable, and they are the number one target in hyper-charismatic churches, precisely because they are immature in the Word. The youth program in the Word of Faith church we were in was on its way to being “Bethelized”, several of the youth joined “IHOP” as adults, and “Aquire the Fire” (Ron Luce) was a yearly event. All of those things went spiritually beyond what was going on in the main “church”.

    Scan the book shelves in your church. Ask about the youth programing. I have relatives going to a church where Rob Bell and his NOOMA videos (New Age to the core) are being held up as the latest and greatest thing. They didn’t know who Rob Bell was and the material is being shown to the youth and NOT the adults.

    You are already doing the right thing by keeping yourself in the Word of God and trusting Him. You sit at the feet of Jesus, and He will take care of the rest. The greatest gift any of us can give to our children is a solid foundation in the Word of God.

  146. It realise from my own experience that Christian leaders are not always right in every teaching and practice and regret that you have struggled with your experience of such churches. Divisions and in fighting gives unbelievers an excuse to reject the Gospel. From a Biblical standpoint unity and fellowship with other Christians remains important, and if we recognize that none of us are perfect then taking the splinter out of our own eye must come first. It is easy to make accusations against others and every denomination seems to have practices that or teachings that another would consider unbiblical.

    Looking at your own statements encouraging others by your own example to leave a church without finding them a new spiritual home appears to be separating the believer from the vine and that is not supported by any scripture – which tells us not to give up meeting together.

    Clearly the word also speaks of going out into the Highways and By-ways and bringing in the lost, most conventional churches fail in this, although John Wesley Pioneered such and Bethel is effective in doing this today.

    In a post Christian pluralist culture those who demonstrate a living Christ in healing in His name are both fulfilling the commands Jesus spoke and will be far more successful than those who merely preach – something that barely worked a generation ago.

    It in important to understand that those who go into New Age Fairs to reach the spiritually lost, do so under the permission of show organizers, so cannot directly attack the other exhibitors or the event itself.

    It is a case of following the example of Paul in order to reach Greeks (becoming like them) and Jews (giving no offense. Having talked with those ministering in this way, I have heard that many unsurprisingly sense the presence of goodness and are drawn to the Christian stands. Paul spoke of the alter to the unknown God to introduce Gentiles to Christ.

    • Geoff, Have you even bothered to compare “Bethel” teachings with the word of God? They are not the same. I only encourage people to leave churches that teach unsound doctrine, a concept also taught in the bible. Don’t come to my blog and take things out of context for your own purposes. It won’t fly here.

  147. The words you shared and the conclusion
    “…This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” – – The next time Jesus is to be seen is publicly, in this way. These are the basic scriptures that helped me understand that Jesus does not appear to people.”
    In that case the book of Revelation is incorrect as it was written some years after Jesus ascended.
    It is a common error to read verses like this and build doctrines on them, but ignore the rest of scripture.

  148. M’kayla, I have shared portions of my story a couple of other places in other sections of your blog today so I won’t repeat myself. I have seen and experienced just about everything that has been expressed here and your responses are refreshingly honest, balanced and completely Biblical. Thank you! I have been comforted, strengthened and encouraged. I have a question for you. I too have found it difficult to find a church so I also have not attended a church for quite some time. What do you do in place of church? I hear so many sound pastors encouraging people not to give up fellowshipping together and so I struggle with guilt about this. I know there is no such thing as a perfect church, but I am convicted of unbiblical practice(s) and/or tradition(s) in every church I attend, my conscience just can’t take it!

    @ Geoff you said to M’kayla, “Looking at your own statements encouraging others by your own example to leave a church without finding them a new spiritual home appears to be separating the believer from the vine and that is not supported by any scripture – which tells us not to give up meeting together.” …but my understanding of the scripture of the vine and branches is that Jesus is the vine and we are the branches, so, as believers in Jesus Christ, how can we possibly be separated from the vine just by not attending a physical church? (John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.) I have no way of knowing if M’kayla is meeting together in some form with other believers,(perhaps via this blog?) but It certainly seems to me as if M’kayla is bringing forth much good fruit!

    On another note M’kayla, have you written on the subject of the Hebrew Roots Movement? I have done quite a bit of research on the subject and have found this to also be an unscriptural teaching even though they claim to believe in the Messiah. I have close relatives involved in this and am quite concerned, I have tried to reason with them, with scripture, but to no avail, they have their own unique way of twisting scripture.

    Still Contending…

    • contending, I have only attended one church service since leaving the bible church which embraced emergent in 2/2011. What do I do? Lean on God, study, pray. But I had been doing much of this on my own since God began to open my eyes in 7/08. Believe me, this blog has had my nose into the word more than not! I have learned more out of the church than I did in one. And to be honest, I cringe when I think I have to listen to a sermon because of what it may contain, or often times even music, because so many of them have gone off too. My experience has not been in finding wrong on Sunday mornings, but in knowing it is in those back room, closed door meetings that most are not aware of. This I found in the Vineyard and the bible church.

      I am not, nor have I in any way encouraged people to leave, unless there is biblical reason to do so. Without repeating, we are told to mark those that cause division and to have nothing to do with false teachers or false prophets, to warn others and to flee. More and more we see people soft on this issue and we should not be. Imagine how Paul would have reacted had he witnessed the things we do now. Would he have allowed it? No. He would not have and we know this from his writings!

      We are however encouraged to meet in unity, which can only happen when sound doctrine is taught. For a time I skyped with another couple, did bible studies. God does provide for us. I addressed this some time back – Starving in the wilderness? Not at all. Besides, we are “meeting together” right now. And another point, we need to be aware that very soon there may be no church, we may need to hide bibles or meet in secret. What then? Prepare now, I say. The government is putting some real heat on, homeland security considers us as terrorists. How long until churches are no longer allowed to speak against the things it was set up to address? Will your pastor stand for the truth or bow to the gov for a paycheck? These are serious things we all need to be aware of.

      I have nothing on the Hebrew Roots Movement, tho I am a bit familiar. It seems someone came on here and gave some info or a link some time back, but I couldn’t say for certain. You may want to check Lighthouse Trails, Critical Issues Commentary (Bob DeWaay), Let us Reason, as these are some research sites I trust and have used in the past. You can also check the blog roll to see if any of my fellow bloggers have done work in that area. I trust them too.

      Blessings contending, thank you for your encouragement. It is an honor to help others see the truth and I know this can only happen thru the leading of the Holy Spirit. Blessed be the name of the Lord!

  149. M’Kayla,
    Your last comment resonates with me. Right now I’m in two minds about my current church. There is a lot of good, Christ-centered teaching and the pastor usually makes proper emphasis on character-building, death to self, etc. But on the other hand, I sense a religious spirit. I get increasingly restless and frankly bored at the monotony of the services. It’s always the same: an hour of songs, then the offering, then forty minutes preaching, then prayer, then people are dismissed and free to stay and talk… This is a supposedly Pentecostal church but I don’t see any of the gifts at work except the pastor’s teaching gifts. And even though the sermons are good and biblical, I hardly receive any personal exhortation from God through him. The sermons hit home in a very general, intellectual, theoretical way, but doesn’t really get to my heart.
    I participated in more “charismatic” churches before and I certainly DON’T miss that. In fact, I joined this church because the pastor seemed much more careful about doctrine and sober in his mindset. Yet, I can’t help feeling a certain deadness… I really can’t put my finger on it, but something seems not right and I can’t feel that church environment as my home (perhaps because of the depth of the hurt I experienced in my former church?)
    The good thing about this is that the situation has brought me much closer to the Lord, in the sense that now I’m depending much more on the Holy Spirit to teach me and my prayer is to abide in Jesus.
    My question would be, How can I tell if it’s really the Lord calling me out to the wilderness, meaning specifically to be unchurched for a while (or for good)? I have received the wilderness call specifically in Isaiah 40:3, but I’m not really sure if it means to be physically out of church or if it just means I need to learn to depend much more on Jesus and not at all on man. So far I’m waiting for instructions, asking the Lord A LOT OF questions, reading the Bible more than ever, praying a lot, and for the time being attending that church (less), but finding myself less attached to the people. Can any of you who have been through this share your insights? How do you know the situation is bad enough to repudiate the system altogether?

    • Carina, it is dangerous for me to tell someone what to do. I can only point to the signs and back it with scripture. We all need to lean on the Lord and wait for Him to lead. If you do not have clear direction, if there is not a biblical reason for you to leave the church you may want to consider why you are feeling the way you do.

  150. I totally get that… And that’s why, until I get clear direction from GOD I’m staying right where I am… Just wondering, what would be a good biblical reason to leave? Perhaps this monotony I sense is a call for prayer for God to move among us more freely. (I think sometimes when we know the extremes of Charismania we can become overzealous not to let in anything that feels like disorder and this may be what’s going on here). But whenever I’ve talked to the pastor about the need for personal revelation of Jesus (I don’t mean extrabiblical revelation, I mean knowing Him in your heart of hearts, not just intellectually as many do) my comments went right over his head… Perhaps I’m being unfair. Just because he doesn’t show much emotion doesn’t mean he doesn’t feel. Just because he seems cold and stiff doesn’t mean he doesn’t really care. I don’t know, but there’s something about the pastor that doesn’t seem right… Yes, perhaps it’s me… Perhaps it’s the fact that I’ve suffered so much at the other church and I’m oversensitive. I’m praying a lot for God to show me.
    Last Saturday the service was ending and I asked the Lord why I was feeling so uncomfortable if I didn’t see any visible signs (as I could clearly see in the other two churches) of anything being wrong (except that stiffness and coldness which may very well be MY subjective perception). Then I opened the Bible at Acts 4. That’s where Peter and John are confronted by the Pharisees who demand that they do not continue to preach in the name of Jesus. Again, religion vs. spirit. Still wondering what it means in my situation. I see too many positive things to equate this pastor with the Christ-hating Pharisees… I don’t see myself as a Pharisee either, because I’m more than ever seeking Jesus as Truth and my Everything.
    No, I don’t expect you or anyone else to tell me what to do… This is precisely what I want to avoid at all costs. I was more interested in getting a tip or two on how to figure this out and hear the Lord more clearly.

    • Carina, that warning in your head is there for a reason. I had it too, all along, but doubted myself and chose to ignore it. There have been times since I left Charismania that again, I had warning signs. We call this “discernment”. It may not be clear what is wrong exactly, but the warning is there. You are doing the right thing in waiting on the Lord to show you and He will.

  151. M’kayla, I completely understand what you mean when you say you have learned more out of the church than you ever did in. As I have studied, the last four years, everything from church history, doctrine, Calvinism, and just simply methods of correct Bible interpretation etc.(things I now consider basic, fundamental knowledge we should all have as a practicing Christian, especially if we don’t want to fall into deception) I have asked myself repeatedly, “where have I been? why have I not been taught this stuff?”. I am 56 years old and have gone to ‘church’ my whole life and was never even taught the basics, that is just so sad, and scary! My knowledge and understanding of the Word of God was so shallow it’s almost too embarrassing to admit.

    I also understand your concern about what goes on in the “back room, closed door meetings”, that’s scary too. One of my personal pet peeves, that I voiced concern about repeatedly, was the completely unscriptural methods used to choose elders and deacons in our church. Basically they asked for a list of suggestions from a ‘committee’, committee members then made a visit to the nominees home and asked if they were willing to fill the position, and if they were a church member and they said yes, they were in! The Biblical standards for being a deacon or elder were not even discussed. I know because I took part of that process from both sides, and voiced my concern each time only to get a shoulder shrug and “that’s just the way it’s done”. Frustrating!

    I am also having a hard time with some of the music being used to worship our Lord, it is simply so void of scriptural anything! And the more aware of all the false stuff that has crept in to the churches the harder it gets, because so many times it hits me in the face as soon as I walk in the door via the promotion of certain books, teachers, programs (how about a labyrinth or prayer stations/Stations of the Cross at Easter) etc., my stomach just turns as soon as I see that stack of free books or information promoting a false or undoctrinal teaching sitting there for the taking. It brings me to tears honestly.

    You said:…”And another point, we need to be aware that very soon there may be no church, we may need to hide bibles or meet in secret. What then? Prepare now, I say. The government is putting some real heat on, homeland security considers us as terrorists. How long until churches are no longer allowed to speak against the things it was set up to address?”… I wholeheartedly agree that this is a legitimate concern, and my personal thought on this is that it is coming sooner than we might think. When I read about how they are treating Christians in the military I think that is a good indication of what is on the horizon. Sometimes I think I come off sounding like a conspiracy theorist, but the Bible warns us clearly of what to expect in the end… and besides there really is a conspiracy against Christians from our #1 enemy Satan himself!

    You said: “We are however encouraged to meet in unity, which can only happen when sound doctrine is taught.” Amen to that, and I do ‘fellowship’ with other doctrinally sound believers also, just not in the formal setting of a church service.

    Thank you once again for your honesty, openness and transparency, that is so refreshing and I am greatly encouraged. I know you take a risk every time you are so honest and open yourself up especially in a public forum such as this, but I believe as Christians, if we are to make a difference in the lives of others that’s what we are called to do. It takes true courage to do what you are doing.

    Blessings M’kayla,

    Jesus said: John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

    …I love the worship offered up to our Lord by the heavenly host in the book of Revelation…..
    …something to look forward to :) …..

    Rev 4:8 And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say, “HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THE LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME.”
    Rev 4:9 And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever,
    Rev 4:10 the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
    Rev 4:11 “Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”

    Rev 5:11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands,
    Rev 5:12 saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”
    Rev 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”
    Rev 5:14 And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.

    Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
    Rev 7:10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
    Rev 7:11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
    Rev 7:12 saying, “Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

  152. M’Kayla and just1ofhis, Hi, this is Crystal, I had posted here back in July, and have meant since to reply and thank you for your responses, so Thank you! I do appreciate and had considered what you both said. I ended up for the most part taking a break from my current church for much of the summer. My son had spent a lot of time with his grandparents which meant I had a lot of alone time to seek the Lord and the truth in his word. I relate to condendingearnestly’s comment about learning (or relearning the basics). I started out desiring to know the true Jesus of the bible. I had found that when I would come across certain scriptures like how all things were made by him and without him was nothing made, and how God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, basically any scripture that revealed the deity of Christ, I would find myself like somewhat surprised. I had read these scriptures many times before, and if asked if Jesus was Lord or God I would say yes. But for some reason they were hitting me differently like as if to say or think “REALLY?”! At first I wasn’t sure why, but then it had occurred to me when thinking or asking the Lord why am I reacting this way to these types of scriptures and then I thought about the trinity. I have had a tendency to take things very literal at times and I think that over the years hearing about the doctrine of the trinity being one god in three separate distinct persons, I took that too literally, and had literally separated them that way to a fault, and because of that, it like diminished my understanding of the deity of Christ. So one thing led to another and before long I was comparing the oneness belief vs the trinity, Lordship salvation vs easy believism, & Armaneism vs Calvinism. Now, a couple of those terms (above) I had only heard about but knew nothing about them really, but those things are very foundational and Iv’e discovered that I have had some wrong beliefs that I wasn’t aware of. I know we have to these days not be too quick to just take mans word as truth no matter how scriptural he may sound (not to be skeptical of everybody), but we really need to learn to compare everything we hear with the bible ourselves and trust that the Lord will guide and teach us. I see now I have taken mans word over Gods word on a lot of things over the years. Initially as a young Christian because I did not know enough of the word yet, but over time unconsciously choosing mans word over Gods because it was more comfortable. So this past year I feel like I have been by necessity having to go back to some foundational basics.

  153. Well looks like I found this site a few years after it was first written – your blog was recommended from Crosswire and how right they were.

    I would like to ask a question that is probably off topic but I am desperate for receiving some help. Please feel free not to post on your blog if you feel it is inappropriate.

    Have you in your experience ever come across a situation where a person is burping every day as a result of words being spoken against them or projections or spiritual attacks – where the burping is seen to be as a result of deliverance – and i don’t mean during ministry, but perhaps when driving, watching television, just chatting etc.

    • Hi Philip. There’s nothing in scripture that I am aware of that would cause a person to burp. If we are speaking of a Christian, the person is in no need of “deliverance”. I am aware of, and have seen instances in false deliverance of different types of physical manifestations including spitting up, which is believed to be the evidence of a demon leaving. Again, there is nothing to support this in scripture. The power of Christ is mightier than any word or curse spoken against a believer.

      I do believe when we come into agreement with false deliverance, prayer, healing, etc., the words spoken can have a hypnotic or even demonizing effect, rendering the person subject to their power. It is a type of witchcraft, used in the name of the Lord.
      :) Thanks for the kind words.

  154. thank you for your reply. Now that blows the whole of the Deliverance Ministry as practised wide apart.

    However, deliverance ministry does not always deal with demons directly. there is inner healing, pulling down of strong holds, removal of legal rights as well as the casting out of demons. Your point of coming into agreement with the false deliverance is one that I would really like to agree with. However, the problem I have is with the reality of many people that I have seen that do not experience something. Just for the record, I have never experienced anything in my life, have never had any manifestations of any sorts whilst prayed with.

    You are correct in saying that there is nothing in Scripture that speaks of burping or any of the many other manifestations. I, however, cannot come to the same conclusion that just because it is not mentioned that it does not happen, As an extreme example, Scripture mentions almost nothing on the process of SRA the impact on the individual and also how to minister to impacted people.

    Your point on witchcraft is also one that I can agree with. I am still left with the scenario of someone who continues to burp and who genuinely believe that they are receiving genuine deliverance – this is “evidenced” by the freedom that they have received.

    • Philip, anything not addressed in scripture is not for our knowledge. We are told to not go beyond what is written – 1 Corinthians 1:6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other. As far as the phrase “removal of legal rights”, it is not a part of the scripture you refer to and, again, I know of none that actually tell us this is true.

  155. Thank you M’Kayla. Paul starts verse 6 saying ” Now these things…” so what are the “now these things” Paul is referring to? Verses 1-5 speak of what not to exceed, and that is the truth tht v1 “men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the secret things of God.” That in itself raises questions about secret things of God, but that is another thing.

    I agree that phrases like “removal of legal rights,” “soul ties” etc are all phrases that are commonly used in ministry. But then also terms like “inner healing” are not included. So the question is, if in ministry ministers use these “tools” to help people be free, are they a) being deceived or are they b) working within secret things of God?

    This discussion still, however, leaves me with the dilema of people who “burp” a lot when ever they are going through ministry. This is still a concern

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  157. The other day, it accidently slipped out (or possibly the Holy Spirit had it “slip out” on purpose) when I was speaking with someone who potentially has access to Bethel’s higher powered (physically) people, I told them that I think Kris Vallotton is a false prophet. Even though at Bethel he is considered to be their prophet “of last resort”, and acting in the Eph 4 idea of what a prophet is. In fact, every other year he teaches a weekend conference at Bethel on what a prophet is (as distinguished from one with a simple gift of prophecy).

    What I am asking for is specific ideas so that when I am directly challenged for saying that, I will have adequate defense. Or is this a situation where in being brought before a king, not to prepare beforehand, but rather to rely on the Holy Spirit to give me, at that moment, what to say.
    At the moment I opened my mouth, and was simply gently asked why I felt that way, I referred to a major predictive prophecy given as a sunday night sermon, and regarded by (almost) everyone present as predictive prophecy given by an Eph 4 prophet acting in his “office”. It was given about 1 1/2 years ago, and he specifically said, snickeringly, if it does not happen within a year, I will apologoize to you. Things very obviously did not come true, and to my knowledge, he never did even apologize.
    Kris’ arrogance and flippance about speaking for God was at the time, and still is, absolutely nauseating. As my friend heard from me, “I would hate to be in his shoes on judgement day!”

    In the past, when speaking to private individuals about this, I have been thrown their Matthew 7 “Do not judge” taken out of context. And when using OT verses such as Jeremiah 23 or Ezekiel 13, I was bluntly told that that is Old Testament, and therefore irrelevant for today.

    Although I have been taught the answers to their objections, I myself am at a distinct disadvantage, since I have significant brain damage with memory loss in some areas, and find it necessary to be on very high doses constantly of high potency prescription narcotics for pain (which leaves me often in a brain fog).
    BUT: “Christ’s power is perfecfed in my weakness, so I would rather be weak, so that the power of God may rest upon me.” Please pray about that.

    Do you have any more advice or suggestions for me when I am challenged more directly? I know one thing they will present is that for many years Kris has been able to see and hear into the spirit world.
    I can remember Jesus’ words, quoting these people….”Have we not prophesied in Your name?” And Jesus saying back to them, “depart from me. you who practice lawlessness [sinfulness]; I never knew you!”

    I do not wish them bad; I sincerely desire that they each one would come to repentance and the acknowledgement of the truth as it is in Jesus!

    Thank you!

    • TenderHearted,

      2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. This being pointed out, how can they toss out OT?? The way I understand it is, we view OT thru the eyes of NT.

      The point is not the debate between a true prophet or the office of one. The point is that EVERYTHING coming from Bethel is a lie. Sure, there are moments of truth, there must be so that the lie and deception can be swallowed, correct? That is how it works – the truth and the lie are mixed together, or as some say it, side by side.

      You may want to do a study on the gift of prophecy in the NT. I did one and found it to be most helpful. One day I will post my findings here for others. But in short, it is not that we prophesy in a future-telling way, but it is to build up/edify/strengthen, admonish, speak truth to, other believers. A good word study would be most beneficial. I am of the understanding that Christ was the last prophet. We know what is going to happen in the future by reading the word of God. I can attest, being a forgiven, x-false prophet, predictive and personal prophecies, such as the ones coming out of Bethel are lies from familiar spirits and foaming mouths of men who have no truth within them.

      Above and beyond, lean on the Lord for all your understanding and for Him to speak through you when necessary. Indeed He will and when that happens you will see yourself operating in the gift of prophecy. It is very exciting! Praise His Name!

      Blessings dear one!

  158. I have witnessed these lies. A young pastor tried to prove speaking in tongues by showing me one verse 1 corinthians ch 14 verse 2 and I felt crushed. Then I went home and read the whole chapter behold it speaks against this jiberrish. They like to trick you with one verse and take it out of context. They also ask for money twice. The second time people put money at the pastors feet.

  159. i have a family member who has been influenced by the teachings at bethel church. it seems now that person is convinced by the babel that bill johnson has spewed on him. he says he could care less about websites that conflict with bills so called high regard of Jesus. i would like any thoughts or ideas or ways to open the eyes of a lost sheep.

  160. i have also heard of someone who will not want to hear anything against Bill Johnson or Bethel, I find it very difficult when people do not wish to speak at all about anyone or their teaching.. sacred cows spring to mind

  161. David, feel for you. Family members are the most difficult esp when they have no interest in listening and are convinced that they are right and hearing from God. I am at a loss what to say, this is something for prayer or prayer and fasting. It is so entrenched sometimes that they can not see a way out need some Holy Spirit light i think

  162. Kaz and David,
    This is a widespread problem. We Evangelicals speak against Catholics who worship statues, but we worship people of flesh as if they were demigods. It’s this idolatry of people that totally blinds us to the truth.

    The Scriptures clearly state that we shouldn’t go about looking for human teachers to explain every single point of doctrine but should mainly rely on the Holy Spirit to lead us to all truth (and we should constantly ask God to warn us when some teaching we hear is not right). We should get to know God in our own private prayer closet, not mainly rely on corporate worship and prayer times for our relationship with God. This dependence on “the building” and “the leaders” is what creates or reinforces the problem of dependence on people (which leads to idolatry and then to confusion and error).

    John said,
    As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

    So unless we solve the problem of loving men more than we love God, God will respond to us according to our idols. He will not show us the truth because we don’t want to see it. That’s why people can remain for 20 years in a place that teaches some Bible truth but with some blatant distortions. We don’t see because we love lies. Start to love the truth and you will begin to feel very uncomfortable in environments that mix it with falsehood or tell you half-truths.

    We should pray for those idols of flesh and bone to make enough mistakes that the people who blindly follow them will begin to understand this is just fallible people, not God incarnate. We should pray that the ditches people fall into after following those blind leaders will teach them a lesson, so that people begin to see that not all affliction comes from the devil, but some of it is discipline from God for straying from the straight and narrow.

    And we should make sure that, while rejecting the “human idols” who promote false doctrine, we don’t put our trust on the “great men of God” in the apologetics camp, who also make mistakes. Jesus said not to call ANYONE teacher, because we have only one teacher, and we are all brothers. And I could go on and on about church hierarchy…

  163. thank you Carina. It is good to put things into perspective The difficulty is that so many do not feel confident in their walk so that they look for guidance to others, surely that is part of the five fold ministry to “for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;…” This does not mean that it does they get it right all the time, nor do we. And yes we are called to test everything. But can we have look at teachers as “guilty” until they prove themselves innocent? Yes we have only one teacher and it is not about the education a person may have recieved or how little we have recieved that proves whether someone is likely to be right or wrong. Take this site for example. How many times has someone written that this site is like a breath of fresh air, or thank M’kayla for speaking out etc. As humans we have need to look to others for affirmation, sometimes we choose the right crowd sometimes the wrong. I think that there are many teachings which people have genuinely believed have come from God but which over time have proven to be false. So any use Gods word to make a point I would not say they dleiberately twist the truth ( although I am sure some do) but people honestly strive to seek God. And right now “For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully know”

    • k4kaz, there’s been a lot of serious testing going on here. We are called to judge teaching and prophecy, and we are also called to unity of the truth. We are not supposed to go it alone, so people coming together in like-mindedness as is done here, is biblical, not so much out of need of affirmation.

    • Kaz, Yes, the guru Bill Johnson and false prophet to the nations, Cindy Jacobs. It is the way of charismania/NAR to pull others inside their camp, and they do a good job. This video is nothing more than another recreation of man trying to imitate a move of God,(Pentecost) which cannot be done. All attempts to do so, becomes a play ground for the demonic, where fools rush in.

  164. Thanks for the blog. It has confirmed my thoughts about what is going on in today’s church. Especially what is coming from across the Atlantic via GodTV not all of it bad but chunks large enough to cause me great concern. I to attend as church which is like this, full of people wanting an experience rather than as Abraham who walked by faith.
    Again thanks there is some really good stuff on here.

    • I used to watch notGodTV and can’t imagine anything of value being broadcasted today. The owner Wendy Allec is a false prophet – they are out riding the cash cow and have no truth to give people of God!

  165. Well said, M’kayla!
    We ‘fellowship’ in the Word and in the Spirit- it is the Truth that sets us free- but when we are blinded spiritually, we need another Believer who has ‘been this way’ before us, to help us understand(2Cor1:3-5) ….’that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.’
    I, too, have been down this road and it was a painful journey back on to the ‘narrow way’. However, the experience does create better discernment, and I do believe that The Lord is drawing many who are willing to be totally obedient, to ‘come out from among them’.

  166. Hi M’kayla,
    All I can say is ‘wow’ and thank God for this site which I stumbled on.
    After reading a magazine which is published here in South Africa “Prepare the Way” – Preparing the Bride of Christ for the return of Christ’, exposing ‘spiritualized counselling!’, I went on line to view TPM Ministires (Ed SMith) and found your site!
    It is great to know that God is still on the throne and He will not forget His own!
    Your site has exposed the deceptions of many under the guise of Christianity!
    The other aspect that I found disturbing was that I attended a ladies spiritual camp last year and the speaker of the day was attending a Sozo training. I actually attended one of the sessions out of curiosity. I now realise the extent and subtlety of the enemy of how a number of Christians are misled into desperately wanting to experience a ‘power’ rather than basing their faith on the Word of God. The true church of God must apply biblical ways of ministering based on God’s wword.
    Thank you for your insight and clear discernment in this area.
    Janet

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  168. M’Kayla – hi again. You know some of my story. I worked at a Pentecostal church and poured a lot of energy into preparation for visits from (guess who – can’t say his name but his initials start with Steve Hill). The mantra at this church was revival, revival, revival but very little fruit if any came out of it. What saved me out of this mess – Kundalini demon spirits et al was a brother who was an airline captain said “you need a rest – spin the globe and I’ll give you free tickets anywhere in the world.” My wife and I chose Prince Edward Island lol for the lobster festival. Before we departed, someone got a copy of Hannegraf’s “Counterfeit Revival” in my hands. That helped big time but long before this, the scripture from 2Thess. 2:1-4 kept coming to mind and I was asking people in the church “why are we looking for revival when the word says our gathering together unto Him doesn’t happen until there’s a falling away first?” After we finally broke free, We were unchurched for about ten years. Now this is the part I really want you to get M’Kayla, after much prayer a couple of years ago the Lord gave my wife and I both a witness about a church we came across by “accident” while out biking. It’s not perfect – in fact if was perfect it became imperfect when I walked through the door :-) but the people have a firm belief that the Bible is the inspired word of God and that’s a biggy for a lot of people at your Korner here too if I’m reading it right. Next month our church will host another “Learn to Discern” conference and that’s something a lot of your readers can relate to as well. So what I’m saying M’Kayla is that it’s a good thing to be in a Bible believing fellowship especially when we see that day approaching. I pray you find one as well. – Blessings from Alan

  169. One thing I left out. What we’re seeing now is a major outpouring of a counterfeit anointing. If the enemy holds to his pattern of usurp or destroy it means we will see the real anointing soon according to the blood fire and pillars of smoke prophesy in Joel. From now on this scarred old believer is holding out for the real thing.

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