An Encounter With A Madman..or Two..

Several years ago I came upon the teachings and writings of a very well known teacher, Jacob Prasch. We have had a little bit of discussion regarding his teachings and his not so nice temperament when others came forward and told of their experiences. I believe I have lost some readers because of his cruelty toward them.

Since there is always two sides to a story I was bothered, but moved on. Well, now I have had my own encounter and this is what I am here to expose. Here is where I will ask your forgiveness. I understand now the gravity of his abuse yet remain shaken.

Believe me, I am not happy to write this but it must be said.

For the last year, I have been listening to him quite a bit. I joined a couple of Moriel Friends groups on Facebook, most importantly for our discussion, Friends of Moriel TV, created and moderated by Tim Wirth. Tim has become involved with Moriel creating videos and doing radio work for the Moriel ministry. I became friends with Tim on Facebook a while back after he found  my blog. He commended me for my work and we often exchanged ideas and short conversation through the private message option on Facebook. I grew to believe I could trust him which was a mistake, in retrospect.

A few days ago, Friends of Moriel TV, put out several videos that addressed the topic of women teaching men, coverings, why they “need a Mordecai”, etc. The teaching in these videos by Jacob was poorly done, more personal opinion than scripture. The points made were, well, not made – disjointed thoughts with very little scriptural backing. We would expect more from a man who is known for his claims of biblical knowledge and understanding of scripture, history and context in several languages.

I began to discuss these videos with a dear friend of mine as both of us were quite concerned. One of our concerns was the way the other women in the group reacted to his teachings. When I say cult-like I am not being dramatic. One poor woman stated that she is waiting for her Mordecai. Huh?

I posed a comment in the group for Jacob. You see, if women are indeed to remain silent, or to teach only women, why is it that I, and many other women like me, who are not married and not involved in a church – aka – not under a “covering” able to speak and explain the word of God?

Here is my comment that I copied from the Moriel group, tagging Tim Wirth –

M’Kayla Kelly Tim Wirth – I would like to pose a question in using my own experience and the work I have done which you are aware of. I am not married, I do not belong to a church. Yet, my work in exposing the false teachings of the International Association of Healing Rooms, the false prophetic movement, John Paul Jackson’s dreams and visions, etc., has proved to be quite effective in helping many, many people. This includes men. And it extends beyond just the blogging as I have communicated through e-mail and had telephone conversations with both women and men who have come to me for help. I have been put in the position to expose and to confront the male pastors and ministry leaders I once worked side by side with regarding their deceptive teachings and followings.

I feel something very important has been left out in these videos regarding women. I have a great respect for Jacob – have prayed for him and his family, the ministry, illness, and have often times defended his teaching to those who do not understand midrash, etc., and unfortunately would rather spread gossip about him than listen to the truth. As I have told you, I hold Jacob in high regard and respect.

Given the fact that God knows everything, it comes to no surprise to him that one day women would be operating in these areas, without supposed need for a Mordecai “covering”. In addition, the scriptures make a clear distinction between wives and women.

There is evidence in deeper study, certain women were restricted for specific reasons, during a specific time frame, but it did not apply to all women throughout all time. I am only a bit familiar with the thinking of St Augustine regarding women, which is horrendous, yet I am seeing it reflected in these videos. We can name Piper, McArthur, the list is long…

I am thankful the Lord restored my mind and my relationship with him. All the learning I did in coming out of the deception in 2008 was through him. There was no one to help me understand, yet through the Holy Spirit the truth of scripture unfolded, resulting in the ability to expose the false doctrine and lead others out, and yes, teach men as well. A great burden was placed on me to right the wrong I had done through my own false witness, false prophetic words and in being a leader in these things. It was huge to me and the grief was worse than what I experienced in the loss of my daughter. However, it was never my plan to do these things, it just happened that way, thru the leading and yes – blessing of the Lord.

I blog, I have done 4 interviews through the internet, blogtalk and a couple of others, and I am currently writing a book and am considering my own blogtalk radio.

Do men listen to me? Yes, they do and just as we see in the NT, they commend me for it. And you are one of those men, Tim. I am asking Jacob to rethink these videos because I believe they are damaging and doing an injustice to Christian women who are being led to battle, side by side with the men just as we have been doing throughout time. And as I said, there is evidence that women had more freedom in the NT than what is being presented.

As for a covering, mine is named Jesus Christ. Please consider there are women all over the world who will tell you the same as I have. We are not usurping men. We are not Jezebels. We are not out of sync. We are certainly not hens. We are true Christian women who are fighting for the cause of Christ in the hopes of saving others. We are the women who know one day it may be necessary to lay down our lives for our faith. Please Jacob, I am respectfully asking you to reconsider. And don’t insist we wear the spiritual burqa, as I for one, will not. There is too much at stake.

Just after I posted this comment, I also sent it to Moriel.org, yet told no one I had done this. Shortly afterward, Tim began to private message me which went on for quite a few hours that same day and began again early the next morning. You see, Tim stated he has read my blog and found it to be quite helpful, yet he stated that what I did was not actually “teaching doctrine”.  He kept trying to reassure me that no one had called me a Jezebel, which I never thought or claimed had taken place. He seemed desperate in his attempts and could not seem to understand that I had several times simply requested that my comment be passed to Jacob for review.

Let me add, I do not care whether or not a person believes I am teaching doctrine. I have settled the “woman shut up and sit down” argument years ago after doing research on my own.  I was remiss to not post it here on my blog, but there had been so much going on in my life and things I needed to do pertaining to the blog that I lost sight of it. My apologies.

My concern, if Jacob has such a deep knowledge of the bible and the original languages, why does he come to completely different conclusions than others who have the same kind of education and knowledge? I am speaking of The Key Word Hebrew-Greek Study Bible, edited by Spiros Zodhiates. Or, the writings of Richard and Katherine Clark-Kroeger in “I Suffer Not a Woman”. And I know there are more to be listed but theses will suffice for the point.

I have no qualms and no problem accepting the order God has put in place. I do however believe that women have been given much more freedom to minister in their gifts than man has allowed. I believe in proper context the bible is quite clear on this topic. To proclaim and teach otherwise, Dear Reader, is a grave injustice to the work of the cross.

Here is the response, in video form and posted to the group from Jacob Prasch  and Tim Wirth – believe me, it is not pretty.

 

I wanted to asked the Imam, because these restrictive teachings sound more like Islam than they do Christianity, when’s the stoning?

I immediately said my peace after watching this wretched mess from a madman, and left the group. Tim unfriended me without cause. I don’t understand how it is we cannot have civil and meaningful conversation. What are they so afraid of?

Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beseech you to walk worthily of the calling wherewith ye were called, 2with all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3giving diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as also ye were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all.

There will be more to come regarding what I believe to be biblical regarding women. This will be done with a group of friends so expect to see it on another blog as well as this one.

Blessing and Peace in Jesus. And thank you all for your encouragement, love and prayers over the years. I pray we STAND.

 

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70 thoughts on “An Encounter With A Madman..or Two..

  1. I have read different preachers on this subject and because of respect for them,haven’t really said anything. I have wondered what is the proper context, and for years there was a annoying woman, who weekly interrupted the pastor, interjecting with a story or comment. I thought the woman being silent verse was written for her. I have also learned much, and all stored in my Nogan. What for ? Who for ? Just for me? I’m pretty sure women preached in certain forms. He is Alive. The tomb. Is empty. Women testified, he told me All I ever did. Etc

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  2. whats funny (sad actually) is that he refers to Kay Arthur as someone with discernment- yet
    She is guilty if sharing the stage with other false teachers ! (ie Beth Moore). What he is saying, and the way he is saying it, is NOT in line with Christlike behavior.

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    • That was my first thought to Em. Kay’s been off for some years now ….so it just raises more questions of how unaware he is (they are) about those he does support. Also want to point out that the women he names that teach false doctrines were and are under “male” leadership of those men who trained them up. They aren’t teaching a false doctrine that they have created. They are regurgitating the false doctrine’s of men like Hagin and Kenyon and all those boyz from the TBN properity, little gods club. Ok I’m stopping now…..yes I still have a lot to get out.

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  3. M’Kayla,
    I first wanted to thank you for your blog. I have come a million miles away from where I was when we first had an interaction. This video that I just watched seems like only more of the same legalism that is rampant now throughout organized religion to stifle the truth and the freedom of the Spirit of God to use absolutely ANYONE regardless of age or gender. Legalism has no place in the church any longer. This is not to disregard polite order at all it is only to recognize the spirit of legalism and to know that we must cast it out from among us. With Great haste.
    I will add one more thing. Please do not forget about your blog. It is a net with a wide reach and I suspect that it has helped untold thousands. Moreover, if you are trying to find a public ministry on the face of the earth to find your place in, It is my fear that you will be disappointed repeatedly.

    Your Brother In Jesus Christ,
    Kevin Wells

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  4. Pfft. more like he’s become quite boring. And a bully. I wanted to throw my phone out the window. woman who claim Jesus is their covering are silly? so its your husbands shed blood who saves us? and he’s using Kay Arthur as an example of a good role model? doesn’t she write books on how to interpret scripture? pretty sure men have read them. Well I won’t take up all your space on that mislead uninformed gentleman.

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  5. He has gone mad. I remember listening to him before and some of his stuff was so off and he always yells. I got where I couldn’t stomach listening to him. Really, what craziness and spirit is leading him on. I don’t think he is mentally well. I feel sorry for his wife, and I do mean that seriously or any woman who believes his craziness. ajc I am sick of bullies..

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      • I dint think you are rude and just reacting to what you see/ hear. I’ve often thought just recently that there’s more to his behavior. He was seriously ill just recently and continues to struggle with complete healing. He should be resting, and this is his choice.

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        • I think it is more too. It almost always is. Maybe we should just gently give our take on it and pray for him. I am scared for him and don’t really take offense at what he says because I know he is off, not just the woman thing. Maybe he is scared about his health. ajc Maybe keeping up the façade has become tiresome. Listening to him makes me tired.

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  6. p.s. Yeah, he’s sick of boring women who go on and on with religious gibberish that amounts to nothing but you know what – I’m just as sick of men who go on and on with their religious gibberish that helps no one, is worthless and is born from their egos and imagination. Your site is good because it really helps people get out of the pit. It is real. Most of the stuff that comes out of religious types on t.v. and from the pulpit is just nothing. All it does is build their empire and fill their pockets. ajc

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  7. Wow. Just wow. There wasn’t any humbleness to be found in that video. It was downright mean-spirited. You’re better off not being associated with that group, I would say.

    Thank you, too, for what you said about Jesus being your head covering. It’s good to know that I’m not the only one in this situation. I’m married, though, but to an unsaved man. I became a Christian a few years after we married. It’s not been easy, but it helps knowing there are others in similar situations. I’m obviously not a man, but I love your blog. You’re doing a good job.

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  8. Hi m’kayla,

    I must admit, after watching the very polished opening of the video, that I expected the next thing to be a man in front of a large fancy building full of “followers.” There is nothing wrong with such a man, but so many of them are bought and paid for these days. I was surprised to see the video go from the fancy introduction to a raving man in his office. Raving doesn’t make someone wrong, it only makes someone look foolish. If he had a rational tone and used scripture to back his concerns, he would be much more credible.
    Having said that, I know the scriptures this guy is using and they are problematic for some in our day. There are other verses that one has to look at on this issue. There are the head-covering, silence in the church, teaching verses. I will try to get back here to deal with these as time allows.
    This brief article summarizes my thoughts for the most part:
    https://carm.org/questions/about-doctrine/what-does-it-mean-when-bible-says-man-head-woman

    The man in the video names some pretty awful women teachers, but I think he named a few that he liked, also. I believe one of those was Kay Arthur. I found this article on Kay whom I have listened to a few times:
    http://apprising.org/2012/11/16/about-kay-arthur-of-precept-ministries-international/

    Instead of using scripture, Mr. Jacob Prasch attempts to use logic and fails dramatically.

    He notes many false women teachers and forgets Muhammad, Joseph Smith, Rob Bell, and on and on and on. Women don’t have the corner on false teaching these days and never have. I must admit, some of the best discernment work (like yours m’kayla) is being done by women. There were the Sola Sisters, the one at the Herescope (can’t think of her name off hand), and a blogging friend of mine from Australia, Sherryn Forman of https://thenarrowingpath.com/. There is https://ingridschlueter.wordpress.com/ by Former Christian Talk Show Host, Ingrid Schlueter. There are so many other women whom God has called in one way or another to help others to understand the truth of God’s Word. My Mom taught a Bible study for women for years. She also was a choir director for years. She “led” the choir. She may not have taught as much scripture as she did during her Bible Studies, but the songs she chose were full of great teachings. Many men were in her choir. I see nothing wrong with any of the ministries of the women mentioned above. As far as I know, they are all women of God.

    I must admit to feeling uncomfortable when I see a woman in a pulpit. Both churches I attend have men pastors. Women are allowed to make announcements, however, and they do teach Bible Studies. Both churches have womens’ Bible studies.

    I stand with the Bible. On issues related to leadership, one has to rightly divide God’s Word. I don’t see how what you are doing here conflicts with anything Biblical. If you end up with a radio program, I don’t see how that would be wrong either.

    It is late.

    God’s blessings…

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  9. There should be none of this backwards and forwards stuff between Christians anyway! God sees everyone’s heart and what they do and what they preach whether it be right or wrong! He is the ultimate judge, you Makayla are obviously helping a lot of people, I find it crazy that we need this kind of blog to begin with? Churches and Christians should absolutely not be fighting against one another! What does this look like to an already jaded non Christian world that despise Christianity! It’s madness that there’s even a need for him to film himself screaming like that and not showing love at all! Just sad

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    • The in fighting among Christians takes our eyes off of the deliverer. He came to deliver us (salvation) and to bring the new kingdom and to end the old system in 70 AD. While we are looking up words from the original translation – look up hell and hades and also see who brought the torture and burning forever in to play. God would not take delight in watching people burn in agony forever, only man would. I stay away from people who delight in harm and pain. Seriously, look up hell in old testament. Jacob yells and seems self absorbed. He is also off in some of the stuff he teaches. You know people by their fruit. I am tired of secular abuse and sick of abuse done in the name of religion and have no interest in bondage. I am sickened that I gave money to these people when my family needed it the most. We were poor. Christ gives us a sound mind not sick bondage. M’Kayla’s stuff is real, the real world. So much of the other stuff is just hot air. ajc All I am saying is, he seems irritated.

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  10. Interesting in that he acts as if there are not any male false teachers along the lines of Joyce Meyer. Fact is, I see there are far more male false teachers on the airwaves.

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  11. There are persons who will research the scriptures to understand what God teachers, then there are those who search the scriptures to support / justify their own ideas.

    There are teachers that take the time to help others clearly understand God’s intended meaning of God’s word and there are some who have a childish rant spewing their own opinions with no biblical support.

    Mr Prasch could have used this as an opportunity to carefully teach God’s word, but instead, he chose to deliver a personal rant. Mr Prasch may be knowledgeable but in this case, he let his opinions and emotions take over rather than let God’s word lead him.

    With rants like this, I understand why he does not allow comments on his YouTube videos. He may be good at teaching on some subjects but this was not one of them.

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  12. I need to hear your Biblical teaching on women being used for God’s purposes. I was raised Church of Christ so Jacobs’ way of talking is not new to me. Surely Jesus would not treat women this way. I Know he didn’t but I need to know more. Thanks M’Kayla for all the time and effort you put forth for us women who feel so put down by men like this. I was listening to him but not now.

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  13. Well you stated lets hash it out. Ok But this will be my only reply and I just wanted to point out some inaccuracies.You stated on your Facebook page this exact quote “M’Kayla Kelly A testimony to all the famous people he ran with. There’s no Jesus story there…and that “speaking words of wisdom” comment, laughter…why is this funny? end quote . Well as for the famous people I played with that was just my job and I would ask your readers to go check this out for themselves. I was quoting the Beatles lyrics from “Let it Be” here is what I said Speaking words of wisdom, let it be. And I was laughing at the total absurdity of playing a beatles song in church even a Catholic church. I went on in my testimony not to raise up my lifestyle but to say how wicked and how I deserved hell. But again I would encourage your readers to just decide for themselves. In your above statement you state “You see, Tim stated he has read my blog and found it to be quite helpful, yet he stated that what I did was not actually “teaching doctrine”.”Here is exactly what I stated for your readers to see “So would you like me to ask if you can teach doctrine to men. Because I have gotten great information from your blog but you did not have to teach me sound doctrine because I already had it. I mean no offense or bragging. I just want to get to the meat of your question and what your asking. I will read your comment to Jacob but I want to understand if you think you can teach doctrine to men?” You than state above “Tim unfriended me without cause”. I guess being referred to as a side kick and a mad man gave me the silly impression that you did not want to be friends. You also state above “Let me add, I do not care whether or not a person believes I am teaching doctrine. I have settled the “woman shut up and sit down” argument years ago after doing research on my own. ” end of statement. No where in Jacobs teaching does he imply that women should “shut up and sit down”. The question we keep coming back to my sister in the Lord is this-Where in the scriptures does it state that women can teach men doctrine?”nThat is the only issue. The issue is what does the scriptures teach and Im still waiting for an answer to that )from anyone). I wish you well and continue to pray for you and your ministry. You are one of the best resources on bethel and Bill Johnson I have found and I wish you well. I apologize also publicly that I upset you. Blessings In Jesus-Tim Wirth

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    • Tim, I never posed the question if women could teach doctrine. I was not asking permission. This has been the phrase that you have continued to throw in my face even tho I keep correcting you. My question, if you would again care to read that comment, was to ask how God uses women like me if we are prevented from teaching because (1) we are women, and (2) we are without covering. And as far as you quoting the FB conversation, it has no relation here and was posted by another person and is not up for discussion here, but I will be happy to on FB where the video of your “testimony” is posted.

      But be assured, your motives have been deeply called into question. Why? Because you were the one who was editing that fateful video and you had the opportunity to jump in and correct Jacob on my points. You chose to not do that even tho I had trusted that you would be clear. If there continues to be doubt in your mind you can go back and read all of our PM’s which I will be more than happy to post here for clarification. Don’t come at me speaking out of both sides of your mouth. It won’t work with me.

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      • Well Tim, since my questions to Jacob Prasch concerning these recent “women” videos by way of you; have been successfully flushed, due to you and I will assume Jacob also determining that the only question that really needed to be answered was “where in scripture does in say women can teach doctrine to men?”. Which was asked by Tim, go figure. Kind of odd that you would choose to end all discussion on this topic with one last video by Jacob who ends up saying or rather raging, he is quite tired of the silly, feminist questions (much more will be said on this and the other videos another time). All because Jacob was tired and bored. Actually he couldn’t accurately answer the questions without stumbling over his teaching errors. Not to mention the fact that I commented and told you there were more issues than the one you posed that needed to be addressed…did you delete that comment Tim? Because I posted it twice and it was gone from the comments both times. Funny how you only responded to my first email and didn’t acknowledge the rest….why is that Tim??? So I will humbly ask M”Kayla to allow me to post my questions for your readers to see exactly what I stated so they may judge for themselves if they are silly , feministic or boring. What say you M’K?

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        • He isn’t going to answer because it is his way to create confusion by twisting words and then running off. Both of them must believe they don’t answer to anyone. Even after being told to “do your own research” and the offer of supposed “help” though offering Q&A, this is what it comes down to. I am very concerned about the women sitting under this teaching without question. Through this video, Jacob has denied the truth through the word of God regarding women and has gone against all teaching in regard to expected temperament required of a teacher and in handling women. I don’t know why Tim continued to insist on focusing on a question I hadn’t asked. There is no other answer than “SPIN” and I am sure it came as part of an agenda. I hope people attending the churches on Jacob’s itinerary beginning this week take notice and take up the battle. I would not be surprised to find us mocked during his talks.

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  14. M’Kayla, from a man’s point of view, I’m deeply grieved at the lack of character of both Tim Wirth and Jacob Prasch. Watching this mess play out is troubling. It seems most men are more concerned about the authority of ministry than the service of ministry. Which only means they don’t understand the biblical role of ministry. My study on this subject continues, however, this whole doctrine centers around on verb use only once in all of Scripture. Also is the connection this verb has with the mystery cults of the Amazons and how the word was used throughout history to mean many different things. It’s a little unsettling to trust the current English translation as when you study the Greek meaning the word is extremely complicated and can have many different applications. I’m a convinced that 2 Timothy 2:12 has little to do with limiting women from ministry. And as you said there is a clear difference in Scripture between “wives” and women in general. One rule does not necessarily apply to the other. Also, when I see verses in Scripture which appear to limit women in ministry I’m amazed at how it always centers on the marriage dynamic, i.e. the husband and wife relationship rather than the churches role. You hold your head up, we are here as support and stand behind you!

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    • This is exactly why I have begun to question his knowledge of these languages. Either he does no know them or he is putting his own spin on these topics. Either answer should cause everyone to start researching and questioning Moriel as a whole.

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  15. M’Kayla, Tim Wirth asked “where in Scripture does it state that woman can teach doctrine?” Well, first of all, no where in scripture does it say they can’t! Secondly, I can show example after example of women, both in the Old and New Testament who had “authority” over men. Godly women, who both Tim and Prasch diminish simple because they were women. For example, Deborah and Barak, It is clear by the “context” in Judges that Deborah was the “Spiritual leader” over Barak. It was Deborah who commanded Barak, speaking prophetically, to go to war. Of course Barak needed a “women” to hold his hand so the glory of the victory went to a “women.” There are numerous examples of women in authority in the New Testament, women who where in ministry. This idea that women can’t teach a man doctrine is something vainly puffed up by the egotistical mind. Show me where it specifically states a women cannot teach doctrine. The only verse they have is 2 Timothy 2:12 and if you take the English at face value women are to teach anything. They are forbidden to “teach.” Like I said, the answer to this verse lies with the Greek verb authenteō which can be translated as:
    “doer of a massacre”
    “author of crimes”
    “perpetrators of sacrilege”
    “murder of oneself”
    “perpetrator of slaughter”
    “murderer”
    “slayer”
    “slayer of oneself”
    “authority”
    “perpetrator of evil”
    “one who murders by his own hand”
    This Greek verb has many possible meanings yet during the 400 years that spanned the New Testament era the word never meant “authority.” The verse has more to do with prohibiting women from perpetrating or supporting violence, sacrilege or even murder against men. Maybe Tim and Jacob need to do their homework as they is sorely wrong.

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  16. Hi M’Kayla, (I didn’t customize the Gravitar. lol) I found your blog when I was really questioning myself and my doctrine. I had a christian counselor trying to send me off for a week long “seminar” at Henry Wright’s ministry. It felt hinke and I researched it and found your blog. I asked some desparate questions that you answered and I have found were correct. About women teaching, I’m not sure how I stand exactly about women teaching men. I think there is a context for when it is ok and one when it is not ok. I have learned a lot listening to Alistair Begg at Truth For Life. (this plug is not endorsed by or paid by TFL) He has some old fashioned values, but I have found he has an understanding of scripture that surpasses any others I have found. He is balanced, humble, authoritative and gentle. He has done several teachings on women in the church. Even when I feel a bit stung by his words, I also find peace in them …..like the truth does. It may sting, but if heeded, brings peace. Again, I haven’t worked it all out yet for myself, but part of that is because I am not in a venue that causes a need for clarification on it. To me it is a secondary issue. I just left a church community that seemed determined to marginalize women, less educated people and divorced people. Ding, ding, ding!!! I hit all three. 🙂 Oh well. I know there is a church home for me. People are frightened and are scurrying to any covering, even if it is malicious. I would rather stand in the lightening and raining darts of the enemy than run under anything but the shadow of my Lord’s wings. Give Pastor Begg’s teachings a listen and more than just on Women, and see if they resonate with your Spirit also. – Lani

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  17. I don’t claim to be an experienced Greek scholar but the context in I Timothy seems to point to the husband-wife relationship more than any other interpretation to me. It just makes more sense to read it that way, I think.
    Most men who get hung up on this, in my experience, forget all context and go on and on about authority, leaving out the dimensions of responsibility and service that go hand-in-hand with possessing authority. Such men (and women are not immune to this) act as lords rather than real servants, in direct contradiction to the instruction of Jesus, namely Matthew 20:27, 23:11, 24:45-50, Mark 9:35, 10:44… just to cite a few places.
    I didn’t watch the video. When you tell me the guy is raising his voice, that’s an instant ‘no’ for me. Passion is one thing, crazy is something I don’t need.

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    • women not allowed to cut their hair??????? Is that also in the NT????? I think that was just a hang over from Judaism The bible was compiled many years after Christ’s resurrection. Read about how it came to be and it gives you a clearer picture.

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    • David I couldn’t have said it better! The heart of ministry is “service” to the body of Christ. That’s what Jesus demonstrated and taught and that’s what the Apostles demonstrated.

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  18. I am an ordained minister (female). My denomination had female pastors as early as the 1860’s, long before the “feminist movement.” One of the first of them baptized more that 2,000 (adults) who were brought to faith in Jesus Christ through her ministry. The “spirit” controlling Prasch knows about things like that, and is fighting hard to prevent it from being repeated all over the world. God wins! It is clear from Scripture that sons and daughters are to prophecy (preach) because the Holy Spirit has been poured out on both. Priscilla taught Apollos, and Scripture makes us clear that (for EVERY believer) there is only ONE mediator, Jesus Christ (1 Tim. 2:5). Jesus said that those who were His would not “lord it over” others like Gentile leaders did. If someone behaves that way, they are not acting as one of His (and may not actually be one of His if the behavior is consistent). (Matt 20:25-28) The one who sent Mary Magdalene to the other disciples (many of whom were men) to tell of His resurrection is still sending women all around the world to proclaim the Gospel. I sometimes wonder what the world look like today if the “spirit” with “enmity” between itself and woman had not been able to seduce men into quenching the Holy Spirit’s work through women.

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  19. 2co.3:6 who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament: not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. God gives his spirit to women and discernment to women as well as men. why would he leave half of the human race out of things. It is how we function – by heeding the spirit I don’t mean to be bashing Jacob but he just sounds angry and maybe tired or discouraged. He might need rest and help. ajc I as a woman have no interest in teaching. I think the teaching is pretty much all done in new testament. But it is good when another believer helps believers to avoid being deceived or led astray.

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  20. Dear Sister in Christ Jesus,
    Although I too have had issues with Tim and now Jacob, you sharing with men the truth about false teachers is not really preaching because preaching to men is not biblical. We, as women are told to teach the younger women. Paul’s praise of the women in his ministry for the work they did and even the suffering of prision, does not specifically describe the work they did, so reading and understanding, in context, I have to assume that they took care of the needs of the ministry in the arears they were acustom too, cooking, cleaning, etc, as well, I believe, included sharing with men, but directing them to other men in the ministry. Scripture is quite adament about the appearance of wrong doing.

    We cannot assume they preached and taught men, otherwise Paul telling women to be quiet would not have been written, and even that verse has been put through the mill unnecessarily.

    I have researched women in history for three years now, only leaving it temporarily to organize conferences in my area.

    I have much to teach men and women about the religious cult movement called Woman’s Sufferage, now known as Feminism. It is not a political movement, but a cult.

    I am thankful that the Lord has given me a ministry to expose Feminism in the church, but He has not told me to teach men doctrine, or lead, as in the position of Pastor, as we see many women doing today.

    I encourage you to continue what you are doing, but it sounds like you want to do more than what the Word of God says, and that is not biblical. My head covering is the Lord too, but please be careful of how much you think biblically you can do.

    From a historical prespective, our world has strayed very far away from the first century church model and we cannot assume we have the freedom you say. I’m sure you are a praying woman, I hope so anyway, but I have watched Godly women fall into apostasy by the very thing you spoke of, without Godly discernment, not realizing they were too into the “ministry” and forgetting the Lord they thought they were serving. Satan is subtle, and unless we really understand who we are in the Lord, we too will stray.

    I teach women, I disciple women, I will talk and share with men, but by no means, do i think that it’s okay for a woman to teach a man. We cannot, although women do all the time because they want to be heard, take bits and pieces of the Word of God. The Whole Counsel of God is what the Word says we are to refer and adhere too. I would be sad to see a woman with Godly intentions, have to stand before the Lord and answer for something she thought was right but went against the Word of God.

    Philippians 4:3 – “Yes, I ask you also, true companions, help these woman, who have labored side by side with me in the Gospel together with Clement and and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.”

    There is no mention as to the specific work they did, so we have to go back to other areas of the Word of God to understand. If we just take one area of Scripture, and not consider the other writings of Paul, we will assume incorrectly. I do not think the Holy Spirit would let Paul contridict himself. We must be careful not to read into a text what is not there and if it leaves a question, seek the Lord in prayer and rely upon other Scripture. Your heart is showing, and I admire you, but don’t let your zeal cloud your understanding, I speak from experience and I’m grateful to God for His correction.

    My blog’s motto is, you cannot be a Proverbs 31 woman until you realize you’re a Genesis 2.22 woman.

    I Praise God you are doing the work of Him who we all serve, and I’m heartbroken that Jacob had allowed wolves to surround his ministry and has allowed them to cause pain , especially to the women.

    There is another being brough into his ministy, I fear will also go astray, because of pride, ego and frankly, the lack of love, true love for the brethren, if he doesn’t address this issue.

    Dear sister, I pray God’s hand on your ministry and I also pray that you really discern it’s future. It is no put down to be a Genesis 2.22 woman, which leads to being a Proverbs 31 woman, but I pray you return to a real biblical prespective, and not let zeal and pride cause you to go over a boundary God has put in place for our good.

    The Word of God emphasize’s forgiveness, Jesus is our example. Forgive, give them to the Lord, and keep enduring to the end. Respectfully submitted. God bless.

    your sister in Christ Jesus,
    Cherie c.

    Like

    • I am confused. First you tell me that what I do, I don’t really do. Then you say I am wrong, and then you say you Praise God for the work I am doing. Listen, your words are as confused as Jacob’s and Tim’s sound. I do not understand what you are getting at other than to say what you do is right in the Lord and what I do is not.

      First of all, I never claimed to “preach”. I came here blogging from my own personal experience in false doctrine, as a false teacher, false prophet and interpreter of dreams and visions. It was the Lord who pulled me from that fire and helped me help others. And I cannot equate how such a thing is wrong. I also don’t agree with your stance between women and men and what they do. The bible is full of stories who served along side men and who did not just cook and clean. Where did you get that idea?

      My question to Jacob is if we, as women do not have coverings how does he explain the fact we are effective in our work? Other people keep twisting that simple point to say something I never asked.

      Like

      • Makayla this website (ministry) is definitely needed! You have helped and encouraged both men and women. Stay strong and cast all your cares to Jesus! Goodday

        Like

  21. Why do people have to be ordained? It can’t be so that they will be watched over and stay on right track. Because obviously, it isn’t working. This whole bad system involving these preachers and churches is dangerous.

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  22. Famous (or infamous) comment of Tim Wirth on the Moriel TV and Radio FB group:

    “I want to start this out by saying that Im not mad and I actually think
    its funny but I will change the outdo. music on the films. Someone
    shared with me that people were calling it new age and that there was
    heavy breathing in it. Its just a sampler I put together with garage
    band. But hey if it causes someone to stumble so be it I will change it.
    Whoever made that comment needs to know this was done with synthesizer’s
    and drum machine’s no one is doing any heavy breathing in it for petes
    sake. People are so ignorant these days. If we don’t use King James we
    get shot at, if the music is to rocky we get shot at. Face it folks many
    people calling themselves Christians are trouble makers, ignorant and
    stupid. And why the person couldn’t write or comment to me directly is
    really ignorant and not scriptural at all. Thats the one reason I don’t
    allow comments on U Tube. If you don’t like what we say or what bible
    translation we use or the music we put on there thats fine. I don’t
    force anyone to watch the video’s we post. Again Im not mad at all
    ignorant people calling themselves Christians are what make the world
    not want to be Christians. But your accountable to Jesus for your
    ignorance not me”.

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  23. I think it is abuse – sure feels like it. What is behind all this authority thing? It smacks of bondage and bullying and degrading someone so you can be king. ajc

    Like

  24. He seems to lack the fruit of the Spirit. He comes across as very angry. It’s hard to have a rational conversation with someone like him, even if he does have a lot of knowledge.

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    • yes, he does seem angry or upset or both. I bet he would difficult to carry on a conversation with. I wouldn’t even try. It’s bad and sad. ajc

      Like

  25. o heap personal insults and to attempt to belittle others within the Body of Christ is unworthy behaviour of any Christian, let alone a leader/teacher. We should be particularly careful about damaging the Body of Christ and grieving the Holy Spirit:

    “Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. 30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.” (Ephesians 4:29-32 cf.Colossians 3:8)

    The Bible tells us not to associate with verbal abusers (revilers) bearing the nam of “brother” (1 Corinthians 5:11) It appears that there is a very ugly side to JP and Moriel – JP is a habitual reviler… the trickle of those complaining about his verbal abuse has grown into a positive stream. Moriel is not a nice “ministry”.

    I have actually proved scripturally that the tribulation is NOT SEVEN YEARS in my recent post. JP must find it very humiliating to be wrong… but nevertheless his 7 year tribulation invention is entirely wrong. Perhaps this explains his appalling behaviour in calling my exposition “nonsense” – I suggest that this is a smoke screen/defence mechanism to cover his scripture twisting.

    We all have a choice… if we do not turn away from error, then I believe that God will allow us to fall into greater error – a little yeast. If we do not love the truth or respond to correction then there are serious consequences.

    Teachers have a greater responsibility in this area and will be judged more strictly (James 3:1)

    If we judge ourselves, we will not be judged by the Lord (1 Corinthians 11:31-32).

    I have a sense that if JP does not put this matter right then the Lord will deal with him. I have had some thoughts about Pharoah hardening his own heart (Exodus 8). JP and Moriel are playing with fire!

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  26. As far as I can see, the positions of Elder/Pastor, and deacon, are off limits for women. “Husband of one wife” kind of limits it. However the bible is clear that there were prophetesses, even in the Church-Age.

    Paul himself was discipled by Priscilla, and her husband Aquilla. I would say the difference is that this was not in the assembly, but in their home. Was Priscilla under the authority of her husband? The bible does not specifically say so, but I guess we could surmise she was.

    What you are doing is not within an assembly, but on the Internet. Those of us who read your writings are free to check-out everything by the Word of God, and I think you would agree that we should.

    What you are doing is exposing error, and using your unique experience, and the Word of God to do it. There is nothing in the bible that prohibits you from doing so.

    Even David Cloud, on the subject of female pastors, once said that “it is better for a woman to teach the truth than for a man to teach error”.

    Jacob Prasch is not answering legitimate questions, but is looking for excuses not to. That is a problem for me. I agree with your expose of his video.

    One thing I have noticed, and I am sure you have too, is that a great many “Christian” teachers who once appeared sound, and even exposed New Age practices creeping into the Church, have grown silent, and now many of them are actually promoting it!

    Chuck Swindol, Beth Moore, David Jeremiah, and Ravi Zacharias are but a few of the names who can no longer be considered teachers of sound doctrine! So the need grows greater every day!

    Keep on exposing error! This is a command of Scripture!

    Ephesians 5:11
    And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

    And remember; the closer you are to the Lord the more attacks you will face!

    Dan

    Like

    • I have a problem with women preachers. I don’t know why but I don’t think it is a good idea. I don’t know why a woman would want to preach. M’Kayla’s site is not about preaching. It is about some of the terrible things that we can get caught in that are everywhere – churches, t.v. ministries and books. Stuff that has captured and damaged people through out history. Same old, same old. Nothing new under the sun stuff. What I found that was such a drag with J.P. was his yelling and never a thoughtful comment. Plus, I think he is really off on some of his takes on scripture.. He like so many others seems to be taken away with something other than a relationship with Christ. I don’t know why these men don’t work normal jobs to support their families. The statement that the closer you are to Christ, the more attacks you will face bothers me a little because people like Benny Hinn and the rest use it to put down legitimate criticisms. I think a pastor I knew used it to make himself the victim for his adultery. Really, I think most preachers should give up the high life and get a honest job. Most people into this false religion system just aren’t normal anymore. ajc

      Like

      • ajc, if you don’t know why women preachers isn’t a good idea maybe you should do more biblical research. We need to know why we believe so we can support those beliefs when questioned.

        Like

        • Just saw this . It is a personal thing with me. Maybe it is because all the women who preach on t.v. are such a turn off. But same with the men preachers. Useless, false and just worthless or downright dangerous and deadly. Taking money from people who can’t afford it but are told God demands it I’m not saying that some of their talks don’t have the side effect of making a person be aware of Jesus but……. Their lives do not match up with what they say. I’m not sure the system that is set up with preachers being the leader and everybody else their followers is the way it should be. I am no longer going to be part of something like that. I am embarrassed that I almost was for awhile. It’s sick. No more superstition or fear for me. No more following monsters that hurt people for their own gain. I don’t want to get in arguments with people about this stuff. It’s wrong and rarely changes their mind. What happened to the time when just knowing somebody believed in Christ like you did made you happy. AJC p.s. Claude Bowers is really saying terrible things recently to get people to give money to buy God’s promises. He should be ashamed.

          Like

  27. I take no pleasure in exposing Jacob Prasch’s faulty eschatology. However, it is critical that the faithful church understands the 70th week of Daniel correctly rather than submit to JP’s forceful personality and skewed eschatological teachings. When teaching about the 70th week of Daniel, JP frequently says authoritatively “PAY ATTENTION”, as if he were speaking for God Himself. I strongly recommend that those who read this post study the scriptures for themselves and PAY NO ATTENTION to myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth. (Titus 1:14; 1 Timothy 1:4; 2 Timothy 4:4), teaching as doctrines the commandments of men (Matthew 15:9).

    BUSTED! JACOB PRASCH’S PRESUMPTUOUS TEACHING ABOUT THE RESTRAINER: 2 THESSALONIANS
    http://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.co.uk/2016/07/busted-jacob-praschs-presumptous.html

    Like

    • All,
      Any conversation regarding Treena’s article should be directed to her blog article. I don’t want to confuse the conversation here but I also know she has some great things to say and I want everyone to have that opportunity. I won’t be approving any comments that should have been directed to her.

      Thanks for your understanding as we continue to learn together. ❤

      Like

  28. I have been informed that the Facebook Group ‘Friends of Moriel TV’ has closed down. I also note that the introductions to Jacob Prasch’s recent teachings have changed and are no longer dominated by Tim Wirth. I do hope that these changes indicate some kind of self-assessment on their part and repentance. God bless

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  29. In the words of Mordecai: “relief and deliverance will rise for the Jews from another place” (Esther 4:14-15). There is always a price for being stiff necked and disobedient. The Lord’s arm is not too short to find other ways of ensuring that women have a voice. I believe the Lord is using women “outside the camp” as it were…. their exclusion is finding other ways of expression, as we are witnessing…. and JP et al do not like it. Just a thought. God bless

    Like

  30. 1 Timothy3:1 This is a true saying, if a man (any, whosoever) desire the office of a bishop

    The classic, standard teaching “Women cannot be deacons or bishops”; Is spring boarded off of 1 Timothy 3:1-2 and verse 12 as scriptural “proof” that women cannot operate in these positions of service to the body of Christ. Let’s look.
    verse 1 “This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
    2. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach:”
    Verse 12 ” Let the deacons, be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.”
    What we see is specific instructions to the men who desire these offices. Case in point, the “husband of one wife”. Now depending on the type of the four walled church one attends, this little phrase has been taught two ways, one is it means, only one wife, not two or three (polygamy). Of course there’s no need to instruct women to not marry and have more than one husband. Two it is taught to mean a man cannot hold these positions if they are divorced and remarried. Again men were the ones that had the power to divorce, in Biblical times it was the men that “Put away the wife/divorced”.
    So if you didn’t read in these verses that women cannot be a bishop or a deacon, well that’s because the verses don’t say it, nor in its context it’s simply not there. But here’s the mindless “logic” used to interject denying women these positions of service in the church by using these verses.
    The standard supposed logical argument for this is:
    [Women can’t be a “husband of one wife”, so that means that only men can hold these positions.]

    Reading these verses and in context, it’s not even logical but certainly mindless for one to believe this is referencing women not holding these positions.
    Whether these verses are stand alone and or in context, these verses are addressing and instructing men on how they should conduct themselves if they desire these positions, period. Nowhere does it deny women these positions. As a matter of fact, by declaring this section of scripture as proof that women cannot be bishops or deacons it clearly contradicts other passages of scripture that speak of women holding these positions, as in Phebe for example. We all know that scripture does not contradict itself.
    Romans’ 16:1-2 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea. The you receive her in the Lord, as becometh the saints, and that you assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you, for she hath been a succourer of many and of myself also.

    NOTE:
    Servant is the same word as deacon; Greek diakonos which translates; to run on errands; an attendant, that is generally a waiter (at atable or in other menial duties: SPECIFICALLY, a Christian TEACHER and PASTOR (technically a deacon or deaconess: deacon, minister, servant.

    It’s highly probably that Phebe was a pastor, but that’s assumption….like women can’t hold these positions is an assumption and a poor one at that. At least Phebe was a deaconess of a “church” and apparently there were no “extraordinary circumstances” surrounding her holding this position (that’s for the Calvinists out there). It’s ridiculous to continue to twist the scriptures to make a doctrine work for one’s own belief system, so that it fits nice and neatly into the four walls of the institutional church and one’s religiosity.

    That my friends is not “the church”. So when bloggers, particularly “women” bloggers are deemed worthy by some; to speak and teach and preach (doctrine) on their blogs because they are not doing it in the church service …so it ok…your just sharing information or as Prasch would say “disseminating information” it takes on a whole new level of ignorance; and those who say such, are foolishly trying to make a false doctrine work and ultimately dangerous and unhealthy to the body of Christ.
    If women truly can’t teach doctrine to men then it makes no difference if it’s from a pulpit or blogsite boys, you just can’t have it both ways. The Word of God won’t let you. Seriously writing this has left me feeling like I have entered the twilight zone. Good grief. If one defines the church and the body of Christ by four walls and pulpiteers then all other definitions and understanding of the body of Christ are likely be flawed too. God help us.

    Like

  31. Apparently the technical term is Hierarchical Complementarians.

    Other examples are Samsons mother – Judges 13.. She is the unnamed wife of Manoah who the Angel of the Lord appeared to twice.

    Then Manoah prayed to the Lord: “Pardon your servant, Lord. I beg you to let the man of God you sent to us come again to teach us how to bring up the boy who is to be born.”

    God heard Manoah, and the angel of God came again to the woman while she was out in the field; but her husband Manoah was not with her. The woman hurried to tell her husband, “He’s here! The man who appeared to me the other day!”

    Manoah got up and followed his wife. When he came to the man, he said, “Are you the man who talked to my wife?”

    Then there is the Wise Woman of Abel Beth Maacah who was clearly a person of influence, possibly even the leader of the fortified town of Abel Beth Maacah in Israel. As a civil leader in Israel, this women, like Deborah, would also have had a degree of spiritual authority. Through her wise use of authority and peaceful persuasion she rescued her town from being destroyed by Joab,[4] the commander of King David’s army. (See 2 Sam. 20:14ff esp v22).

    Biblically, it seems that spiritual authority is closely linked with hearing from God and being commissioned by God for ministry and service. Deborah is the most clear example of this.
    God bless

    Like

  32. Pingback: “When good men do nothing, they are no longer good.” | Closingstages

  33. Hi M’Kayla – Just done reading all the above couldn’t get on the video clip but that is because of my computer as I need to get a new one. But I know from the past people have complained of his yelling. Some call it anger and some call it yelling and can’t take listing to that. But anyways. I always consider to put it simple the body of Christ has many hands. As of you, I always consider you to be solid like Justin Peters in discernment. I always loved your blog and its helpful when you read someone else question/situations of other people dealings with life situations. But I have always felt you kept things into perspective and Christ in it. Beth Moore is wrong I’ve have read that Kay Arthur isn’t right on, Joyce Myers is not right plus we could add alot more names to the list. The scripture makes it clear that a female should not be on the pulpit and I personally would not like a female pastor. I have gone on “I’ve got questions” and you can ask any questions and so I asked what rolls can women fill in the ministry, it was very formative. All you have to do is google I’ve got questions. Honestly, M’kayla I find this so heartbreaking about Prasch. I know we thought a lot of Prasch and you have said from the past Moriel had been very helpful when ever you needed help. Was all of his preaching false or most ????? I just don’t know what to make out of Jacob I can see he wouldn’t be the most gifted for, “Patience”. I have to agree with also with some of the above comments. Sure glad I came back on here and I will be keeping in touch. P.S. I notice you have cut your hair nice. God Bless

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  34. Hi M’Kayla …. I comment on this subject with part “tongue in cheek” and part “fear and in trepidation”. Having seen both sides of this subject play out in the real world over the last 50 years, it does strike me as a Christianized version of the secular “battle of the sexes”. In Christ Jesus, there is neither male nor female. However, that assumes the best of both parties. There are false teachers which are of both sexes (especially of the NAR, Prophetic Movement, TBN, Word of Faith, Signs & Wonders, Toronto groups). But many of the “unattached”, “independent” and so-called “Berean” groups differ in their opinions and interpretations of scripture also (can you say “pre-tribulation versus pre-wrath” or “once saved, always saved”). The demonstrably contentious attitudes (bordering on hatred in some cases) created by dogmatic criticisms have afflicted the Body of Christ as a whole from the time of the Apostles. And I don’t expect it to change until the coming of Christ (and, yes, I have my own biases). “Speaking the truth in love” (as Paul put it) is becoming more and more an impossibility since everyone in the Body of Christ seems to think they alone possess the truth of the Word of God, and hence, they alone can speak it. Do you see the problem here? Yours in Christ, Tim.

    Like

    • I do see the problem. Ask a simple question and receive a rant from a madman – and that’s what he is. There is much to be said about a teacher needing patience to teach, and to be willing to give an explanation of why we believe…instead, the rant and name calling that has gone out all over the world. Shameful.

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