| I got this in my e-mail and wanted to point some stuff out. I don’t think Dutch is actually hearing from God, being part of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR), joined with C Peter Wagner. He has some valid claims about America in this e-mail, but I don’t believe this is the way God intends for Christians to spread the gospel, or recognize and fulfill their God given responsibilities as His children and as followers of the faith. And as you might guess I doubt that any true born again believer has to travel to some place of special anointing to hear God or to be awakened to their destiny. Why? Because Christ is the anointed One. So, there is great doubt as to what gospel Dutch and those like him are actually spreading as I don’t seem to find any truth in their NAR or Word of Faith (WOF) doctrines.
I’ve added some links to some of my writings to help pull this together.
Remember, Dutch is looking for those who have not bent their knee to Ba’al to pull this off financially.
December 9, 2009
Dear Friends
Greetings and blessings. I trust you had a great Thanksgiving and will have a wonderful Christmas and Holiday season. Like many, this is one of my favorite times of the year. I always find myself taking a fresh look at the wonder and mystery of Christ becoming one of us. The story still amazes me.
Christ never became one of us. He is God incarnate, fully God, fully man. This statement is a big woe.
Over the past year many of us have watched with “shock and awe” at the speed and undisguised efforts of our President and Congress to reshape America and rewrite her history. It has been terrifying.
I agree with this statement, as it has become so blatantly clear that Obama and those he has employed have no regard for sound Christian faith or the American people. Except that it is not the responsibility of the government to uphold the faith, but it is the work of the Christians. (See how this kind of fits with the Manhattan Declaration. The same buzz word “unity” which is a biggie right now even in the charismatic circle. See the references to the US Constitution, founding fathers intent, etc., and the claimed call of God to stand for these things in America.)
Link to article on New Age Spirituality in Manhattan Declaration
But, God has not given up on America and neither should we. His heart and passion still consumes us and we continue to hold fast to our faith that He is coming with a great awakening and outpouring to this nation.
I question where Dutch gets this idea of a great awakening and outpouring. I know that there have been true revivals in the past. But never by any of these new apostles.
Like many, we are working very hard, doing our part to see this come to pass. (I have been on the road 24 of the last 33 days.) It is a joy to travel across our great nation. My life theme now is to light fires of awakening and sow seeds of reformation. America must have both! Thank you for allowing me to share my heart with you.
Work, work, work. It’s my job and yours is to pay me and my troupe. Really tho. Who wouldn’t want to travel this great country, stay in fine hotels and have your meals prepared by great chefs! How hard is that?
If Dutch’s life theme is to light these fires, what have the rest of the Christians been doing all these years? What about the true and faithful pastors and teachers, called to preach and teach the word? Are they nothing? I know there aren’t many of them anymore, but don’t count on these guys bringing much to the table, either.
Along with the normal travels and activities I continue to do, I am working on three huge projects I’d like to make you aware of.
Link to my article – awakening or just wake up?
First, we have begun a tour called the Awakening and Reformation Tour, in which we plan to go to 30 – 40 cities over the next 18 months. It is a significant endeavor, with 7 ministries and several members of my staff going to each city. The purpose is to announce and release awakening. I believe the Lord told me we are not waiting on Him for the awakening we’ve cried out for – He is waiting on us – and that if we would go He would empower and anoint us to release the spirit of awakening across the nation.
I thought believers were already equipped to preach the gospel through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. What is a spirit of awakening? Are we asleep?
The first two tour gatherings have been tremendous and we believe this week in Houston, and each one in the future, will be even more powerful (please go to http://www.theartour.com for schedules and more information.)
Why will the meetings gain in power? Does the God gain power when He is moved from place to place as in this tour?
The second project is a large outdoor, 3-day gathering in June of 2010 called Wilderness Outcry. The way God has sovereignty orchestrated this gathering with dreams, divine encounters and events has been amazing. All subjective. We all know how questionable these spiritual encounters are and how dangerous they can prove to be. We’re expecting 100,000 – 200,000 people. The event has so much wind of the Holy Spirit on it that I feel it may end up being the most significant event I’ve ever participated in.
Wind of the Holy Spirit? What does he mean by this statement? Has anyone really felt the wind of the Holy Spirit other than those described in Acts 2? Why can’t the rest of the body feel this wind? I guess it’s another one of those – “come and get some” events.
I truly believe it has the potential to help launch the Third Great Awakening in America. Hmm…didn’t they say something along those lines about Todd Bentley?? You can get all the details by logging on to The third project is one I have mentioned to you before, but due to the possibility of the idea being stolen I have not given you specifics. (One organization has already tried to steal it.) http://www.wildernessoutcry.com.
This statement is what really bothered me the most and got my true attention. I guess Dutch thinks this word from God was for him only and he had to guard it so that he would be given the credit for hearing and obeying. If this was truly of God, wouldn’t others hear the same thing? Doesn’t it take the BODY to accomplish the purpose of Christ? I guess not if you are an anointed apostle like Dutch.
This project has the potential of impacting our nation in a huge way for many years. What we are working on is an American heritage and prayer Bible containing hundreds (close to a thousand) of quotes and facts from our nation’s founders, early leaders, educators, government officials, etc.
So now we will have access to the word of God and the intent of man all rolled together. I am not against learning about and standing up for our constitution. I am against this man’s ideas and his claims that he has heard this from God. And besides, the word was given to all men, not just those residing in America.
These quotes completely disprove all of the efforts to revise our history and Christian heritage. They prove our Christian roots and God-given destiny, our founding fathers’ intentions, and completely disprove the lie of the separation of church and state.
Each quote is footnoted from a pertinent verse of scripture.
So they can prove what they claim is biblical even though America is not mentioned specifically in the bible.
The information in this Bible is more powerful than you can imagine. So it is more powerful than any bible we have received so far. Families, individuals, young people, students, leaders, etc. who use it as a devotional tool will be incredibly impacted – overwhelmingly so – as they realize God’s hand in the forming of our nation. The idea for this Bible came in a powerful visitation (again subjective) from the Lord and I have a deep faith that it will be one of the tools God uses to help us recapture His dream for America!
What dream did God have? You better believe this bible is one to avoid as more than likely it will be founded on WOF and NAR charismatic crazy doctrine.
The Bible will also contain close to a thousand short quotes on prayer to inspire and motivate people to pray for America.
So, the command to pray out of obedience is not enough. We have to have a historic motivation. Besides, why are these elitists always harping that little guy doesn’t pray enough?
It also will have a copy of the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and other important documents in the index. There is nothing like it. We want to get this into the hands of every young person possible (as well as older folks, of course), because most of them know nothing about our true heritage and God-given destiny – it has been completely stolen from them. We intend to distribute hundreds of thousands of these Bibles and also to develop Bible studies and other spin-offs to help disseminate the information. The potential of this project is staggering. We have been working on it for over two years!
As you can imagine, the cost of these three projects is great. We have had to bear the load of heavy up-front costs for the Bible – I have over $250,000 invested in it so far – without being able to raise funds (because of the need for secrecy.)
Why again this need for secrecy?
It has strapped and stretched us greatly. We also had to front approximately $30,000 for the Awakening Tour, and now I’m now being told I need $100,000 immediately for all of the up-front contracts for Wilderness Outcry, the outdoor gathering this summer.
Why do these men do this? Why do the insist on creating these debts and expect other to foot the bill?
If you have followed our ministry in the past, you know I am not one who regularly makes appeals for finances and I never use manipulative strategies.
Oh. So, telling people God has said…and then asking for cash is not manipulative..??? As tho anyone of us wants to willingly disobey God. ugh.
But with all of these expenses, combined with the ailing economy which has effected giving, Dutch Sheets Ministries is in a more desperate situation than we have ever been in. Without a significant financial breakthrough by the end of this month, we will have to lay-off several staff members and put some of these projects on hold. I do not believe this is what God wants.
Maybe this is the will of God, seeing as the entire country is in a state of need with starving children, so many out of work, losing homes and investments by the bazillions, creating a homeless people situation by the thousands who have nothing other than to walk the streets. And God is going to say give your money to this man so I can awaken you, so I can give you this Americanized version of the bible?….
I, for one, have been praying that God would remove these false teachers, prophets and evangelists and that He would open the eyes of those who have been blinded by their lies and deceptive teachings. So, if this kingdom Dutch built is crumbling, I have to say God is answering my prayer.
Any help you can give us at this time will be very appreciated. If some of you can give significant gifts, they are very needed. And, finally, if you know anyone, or perhaps a foundation, that you feel might want to help in a significant way with this Bible (we will need at least $500,000 more to finish the development and print the first run) and would be willing to pass on this information to them, we would be grateful. Also, please pray with us for the breakthrough we need at this time. We’re confident God is going to provide.
Somehow I don’t think this is the intention of our Father, but we all need to settle that for ourselves. Send Dutch hundreds of thousands in cash and let the poor starve and freeze. And have a Merry Christmas in the meantime and a happy and prosperous New Year.
Can anyone say One World Religion?
Link to article- kingdoms
With a grateful heart,
Dutch Sheets |
m'kayla's korner 
According to this website – http://www.wildernessoutcry.com/
Come June 14th 2010, the world is going to change
another buzzzzzz word -change.
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You’re right on the money, M’Kayla.
Quote:
“I always find myself taking a fresh look at the wonder and mystery of Christ becoming one of us. The story still amazes me.”
Christ never became one of us. He is God incarnate, fully God, fully man. This statement is a big woe.” :unquote
Exactly. It’s defining the Incarnation from the perspective of man, not God. As if man was the center of the universe, and THEN, Christ becomes ‘one of us’, AS IF He thought He was missing out on something, or needed to become complete by becoming a Man, or, as if it’s some compliment or endorsement of mankind that He became a Man. Carnal man always perceives things from a place of self-elevation and so perceives wrongly.
The meaning of the Incarnation is IN GOD, for His glory alone. We are SOLELY the unworthy beneficiaries of His great mercy and love.
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I could make many comments but i’ll just make one. Some of what he is saying is true and some of it is false. It’s very dangerous to mix in error and heresy then sell it as “God said…”
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oohh – “sell it” – great observation. 🙂
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A few additional observations:
* The “awakening and outpouring” references are classic Latter Rain theology belief in a massive end-times harvest of souls aided by an army (often called “Joel’s Army”) of young people (notice his target audience)
* Note the use of the “7” numerology to ostensibly give it credibility from God…implies “perfection”
* The “God is waiting on us” phrases are part of the elitism and man-centeredness found in the Latter Rain/7 Mountains/Dominionism/Kingdom Now belief system where God “needs” the Church (man-centered) to complete/fulfill His work on the earth. And, of course, his church is led by the “apostles and prophets” who get His words (dreams, visions, revelations, prophecies, etc) and implement them (elitism). Ultimately ties in to the post-millenial Latter Rain belief that Jesus can’t/won’t return until “The “Bride” has established the Kingdom of God on earth and ruled victoriously, in contrast to Jesus splitting the clouds and cleaning up the mess (Rev. 19)
* The “kingdom” link in the post really nails it — expands on the whole “social transformation” mindset of this crowd
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M’kayla:
Immediately after posting the above, I read your Dec 10 reply to calledsoldier on the “more pentecostal than the…” thread. I see that you covered all of the points I made. Sorry for the redundancy. I bounce in here when I can, but often not daily. One can easily get behind!
’til next time
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I don’t mind the repeats. 🙂 For myself, I had to read and read and read again those points to get it into my head. So, it may be the same for others.
Take care. 🙂
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Yes, very good points. Many people don’t see behind their claims or they don’t see the root to their plans. This is why it is so important to uncover it for them. They only hear “God said so” and think it’s good.
I like your “clean up the mess” wording. 🙂
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Mkayla
I am fully convinced that if this activity was ordained by God, then Dutch Sheets would not be groveling for money, and the converse argument would be true, that being ,if we believe that we are to step out and do something out of obedience, then surely we are able to trust God to provide the means, what ever they are. It just highlights where all this is coming from.
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Yes, yes, yes! And it isn’t “send me your extra $20; it’s send me your thousands. Crazy. Jesus fed the multitudes because he had compassion on them. They had been following him and listening to him and had no or little food. NAR requests for money are nothing like that!
It reminds me of a plea Peter Wagner/Chuck Pierce put out about a year or so ago. He actually requested six figure donations so that they could return to the lifestyle they had become accustomed. I couldn’t believe what I was reading. I guess it was a sad place for them that they had to cut back on all that travel, probably first class.
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I’m on board with “the secret” thing. Strange. Not too familiar with this guy, or the ministry, only know that i’d question the “Apostle” title attached to his name all over the place. Is he properly registered or recognized by the Knights of ?
Nice job overall on this one.
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He was once under what I think is the original formation of the NAR – C Peter Wagner and his false prophet Chuck Pierce and his doctrine is the same as any other NAR Apostle. This one believes he has a priestly (or kingly) anointing. I can’t remember which one it was he claimed. Rick Joyner is the one involved with Knights of Malta.
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Mkayla
I ve always found this tactic amusing, in a sad sense, but this is a classic attempt by Oral Roberts to raise funds.
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In 1987, television preacher Oral Roberts made a dramatic appeal. If his supporters did not send donations totaling $8 million dollars within three months, he warned that God would “call me home.
Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1677098,00.html#ixzz0ZQ5RQ0ui
It then becomes a question of how desperate do you need to be.
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Stories like this one are so telling. I wonder if they will ever realize serving God is not the big production they make it out to be. Leave that to Hollywood and corporate business.
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Really. How many awakenings do these people need????
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rh, I was just reading through these comments and I busted out laughing AGAIN in this one. You can be sooo funny! 🙂
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sister, I just love your wit and your ability to speak the truth! THANK YOU for this article! Yeazh, who wouldn’t mind living it up in hotel rooms at the expense of everybody else???? Sounds like our government doesn’t it? The very same spirit at work.
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I appreciate this point-by point analysis, and marvel at the time it must have taken you. Care to tackle another one? A friend of mine posted this “prophecy” from Chuck Pierce on facebook yesterday. It’s so bizarre; I don’t know why she takes it seriously. This line is particularly puzzling- “I am breaking through the blood carrier in your brain.” I don’t even know what that means. You can find the entire text here: http://www.gloryofzion.org/outmail/12-10-09_Emailer.htm
PS- I’m not seriously asking you to do a post on this one, I just wanted to pass along the info and remind everyone to beware and to think critically about what you believe….and about what you choose to put on your facebook wall!
PPS- Has Lou Engle officially changed the name of his group from “The Call” to “The Call to Conscience”? I’m still on his emailing list & have noticed the change, but to my knowledge there wasn’t an announcement about it. Just wondering…
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heh, I’ll have a look at it when I get a chance. But, there is no blood in the brain, so how can their be a blood carrier?
I don’t keep up on Engle, so you would know more than I would on the change. Interesting wording.
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Diane – I have to tell you. I didn’t read it all yet, but I had to laugh out loud, seriously uproaring. His words are so strange. I think he is claiming that we will become sinless…..
And just on that thought alone, for all the hecklers out there.—— No one is sinless except Christ. Anyone coming to you claiming this will be so in this lifetime is a liar. We are to live lives pleasing to God, to be holy, to strive to be sinless, but until such time as Christ sets up His kingdom, we will continue to sin, being in need of a savior, who is Christ the Lord.
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Ok, too much gag reflex for me. I am not sure why a Christian would celebrate Hannakah. I know that many don’t like to actually celebrate Christmas anymore because of the pagan roots, but why Hannakah. Christ has come and we are not Jewish. (well, some might be but I doubt Chuckie is.)
Interesting how he keeps repeating the same phrases over and over. I have found this with the false prophets. There’s not too much meat in this word, if there would be in a false one, hehe – but lots of mumbo jumbo without much meaning. And see again, the angelic references in how angels do things, not God, not Christ our Lord or the Holy Spirit, but the angels. Biblically, they had very little interaction with people, but mainly were messengers, not bringers of anointing or gifts, etc.
At the bottom is the reference to Robert Heidler who was with Chuck– I think the year before last and taught on planets and how they could be heard worshiping God. They played recordings of these sounds and had the people join in and worship. It was freaky and way out there, literally. Chuck actually told the people to allow their spirits to become one with the sound, or something to that effect, and that they would begin to feel their organs coming to life again. (what does THAT feel like??? I don’t want to know). I think the man is a real weird-o. I don’t know if he just makes this stuff up for something to say or if he is actually hearing a spirit. If it is a spirit, it’s a real stupid one. hmm..spirit of stupid…
Diane, if you want to take a shot at this crazy not- a -prophecy, go for it. I’ll put it up.
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Sorry, I know my comment is YEARS later, but you said:
“At the bottom is the reference to Robert Heidler who was with Chuck– I think the year before last and taught on planets and how they could be heard worshiping God. They played recordings of these sounds and had the people join in and worship.”
THAT is a totally New Age/Occult concept called “the music of the spheres”! It is directly related to ‘sacred geometry’ and fractals/4th dimension. Just thought I’d throw that out there, even a few years later!
That’s about as bad as whoever pulled out the ‘tuning forks.’ Blatant, overt occultism and witchcraft. Ugh.
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Amary, so odd, I was just thinking about the planet worship yesterday!!! Thank you for your comment. The tuning forks came from Bethel. I believe it was Beni Johnson but I could be wrong. I remember reading a bit about it here and there but didn’t jump into it. And yes, there is very much occultism and witchcraft in the church!
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Repent. You and your ‘fans’ break the heart of God, and grieve the Holy Spirit. The lost can look at this judgmental display, and miss their day of visitation on account of this arrogant, pseudo-intellectual self-aggrandizement that promotes itself as “Christian.” Have you considered that you will answer for this? The bulk of commentaries I’ve examined here stink of the same dead religion and fallen human “wisdom” as Paul and the others withstood in the days of the early church. You know nothing of what you so glibly, and recklessly mock. Repent.
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Randy, I know what is being taught, practiced and encouraged in these gatherings is not biblical and that is why I speak against it.
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Thank you for your reply M’Kayla.
The words that you have chosen, “I know,” communicates intimate knowledge. Are you absolutely certain that you want to go on record before the Lord, the Blood bought Body of Christ, and the curious or cynical lost that are reading your pages, that you possess current and intimate knowledge of what is transpiring on the ground in advance of this meeting? Do you?
For many months Christian people have been gathering on the grounds to pray, to intercede for the nation, our leaders and for the lost. They sing praises, and lift up the name of the Lord, and the Word of the Lord. They are seeking the heart of God, and they desire to see an outpouring of God’s Holy Spirit visit this region and nation with a mighty revival.
With which of these foundational New Testament Christian practices are you finding fault, and characterizing as ‘not biblical?’ My friend, consider your reply in the fear of God, for it is He to whom we must give an account.
M’Kayla, after 22 years in Christ, I rejoice to see the day that the people of God are being drawn to this region to seek His Face in such numbers. Aren’t you? No stinking, man-made agenda has reared its head in the proceedings to date. In fact, the character of men women participating in, and in support of this endeavor represent the antithesis of those you appear to despise. Men and women who study to be approved, who are able to rightly divide the Word of truth, and who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern good and evil, have seen no reason for the concerns you allude to and infer upon these holy proceedings.
I’m sure we can agree that there have been, currently are, and always will be folks who are wolves in sheep’s clothing, preying on the body of Christ where they can. Seasoned men of God are providing a framework of structure to this growing revival; observing, and diligently watching for danger or error that could shipwreck the faith of the unstable, or novices in Christ. This is far from a reckless situation.
Perhaps you will consider accepting my invitation to come worship and pray among those who are seeking revival right here in Southeast Missouri.
M’Kayla, I believe that if you abide in Christ, and let the Word of God abide in your richly, you will enthusiastically agree with me that God is desiring to pour out His Spirit afresh on this nation. Why not here? Why not now? I encourage you to enter into a time of fasting and prayer, then come on out here and see for yourself.
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Randy, I believe my concerns were made clear enough. We don’t see these types of activities in the bible, not this method of gathering, prayer, fasting, etc. In addition, “these men” don’t have any special anointing aside from the rest of the body of Christ, they only believe they do. They do not speak or preach the pure message of the gospel of Jesus Christ, instead resort to old testament ways and scriptures to support their “causes”. In essence this is the same as a denial of of Christ Himself.
I completely disagree that this is not a man made agenda. It most certainly is! I see no evidence that those who put this event together have rightly divided the word, but instead have twisted the word to their own gain.
Why would I need to spend thousands of dollars to travel to join together and pray when I can do that very thing here in my home? We aren’t called to this. But, as I stated in my article, each of us will need to work that out for ourselves. I take Jesus at His word when He said when you pray, go into your closet, when you fast, don’t make it obvious, etc. If you instead want to heed the advice of a man over the word of the Lord, that is entirely up to you.
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Randy
The words that you have chosen, “I know,” communicates intimate knowledge. Are you absolutely certain that you want to go on record before the Lord, the Blood bought Body of Christ, and the curious or cynical lost that are reading your pages, that you possess current and intimate knowledge of what is transpiring on the ground in advance of this meeting? Do you?
This is a twisted and convoluted assumption of my words. I hear things proclaimed as “God said” and I go to the bible to see if God speaks in such a way and find there that He does not. Will I stand before God and question this? Yes! Absolutely and I can do this because He is my Father and I am seeking Him in truth. At the same time I warn others, and especially those whom you referred to as “curious and cynical lost” to show them the need to go to the bible and test these things.
I’ve claimed NO intimate knowledge, only what is written in the word. Those whom YOU follow are the ones who claim specific intimacy of “knowing” the mind of God. No, we will not jump on your bandwagon because it is decorated with words and faddish catch phrases of the moment.
I will enthusiastically proclaim that God is showing his true church where the liars are.
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Randy’s accusations were very interesting. How hypocritical to accuse those who are being Bereans as COMMANDED, by saying our beliefs are a “stink of the same dead religion…” when in actuality the apostate church have invented their very own religion APART from the truth of God’s Word. The apostates teach a DIFFERENT Gospel — one that tickles ears, builds little kingdoms among deceitful men and their sheeple.
You, Randy “know nothing of what you so glibly, and recklessly mock. Repent.”
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M’Kayla, what are you talking about? “Methods of?” What are you fussing about ‘methods of’ for? Are you now submitting yourself to the law again? “I will do a new thing” we see in Isaiah 43:19. The Holy Spirit’s ways of reaching people in these days are not likely to look the same as a few thousand years ago. While He is the same yesterday, today and forever, His methods of reaching the lost and backslider are as unique as is His relationship to everyone of us.
Now you stand as a judge of the anointing? To my granddaughters I may have to ask, “Are you the food police?” I ask you, “Are you the anointing police?” Every person in the Body of Christ is anointed of God to do whatever He called them to do, whether called to the ministry, or as a layman. His grace, or anointing, is unique, and appropriate to the scope of the task. Are there not leaders of 10, of 50, 100’s or 1000’s? Would you suggest the grace necessary to walk in different scopes of ministry, different scopes of leadership are the same? If so, you are very naïve,’ and have much to learn in life. In God’s kingdom, what a man or woman may believe about the anointing on their life is irrelevant in the big picture. When they recognize the Holy Spirit’s impartation in their life, that person may grow in boldness for Christ, but that anointing is only an appropriate tool for the job, and that varies according to the task assigned, whether you would believe it or not. When someone gets too focused on ‘the anointing ‘ in their life, error is lurking near. But that said, “let he (or she) who is without sin cast the first stone.” I’m not gonna chunk any rocks. I haven’t even seen any verbatim quotes (in context of course) of transcripts or of written material. All I’ve seen is generalities. Not enough to support railing accusation.
They do not preach the gospel? That is an “absolute statement” at the very least, and arrogant as well. Your words charge that they have never, and don’t preach the pure gospel. When folks make absolute statements that deviate from logic, let alone scripture, I find them frequently reckless, and given to a hyper-critical, self-righteous nature, wouldn’t you say? Now, if these folks don’t preach that Jesus is the Christ, the Lord of Glory, that His death on the cross alone paid for our sins, and His resurrection from the death guarantees our own on that great day, then I’ll not hear a word they say. I have seen no evidence that this is the case with any of the folks that are organizing this time of prayer for the nation.
Old testament ‘ways?’ Which part of God’s old testament law are you referring to? I am curious. Isn’t the old testament holy, even though it has been superceded by a new and better covenant, made on better promises? Are you upset by giving? If you understood scripture, you would know that if people give in faith, standing on the promises contained in the scripture, (even if the offering were not handled quickly, and I’m not suggesting it would be in the case of these meetings) the Lord will still “open the windows of heaven, and pour out blessing you haven’t room to receive.” If you find someone who deviates from scripture (in context), leave!
A man made agenda? Well, where do you draw the line on that one? Many Christian churches have instituted ‘days’ and ‘seasons’ to gather. By your measurement, aren’t all of those dates and times nothing less than agenda’s made by men? If we chose to gather to hear the Word, give testimonies, and pray on a daily basis, or hold a series of revival meetings, isn’t that a man-made agenda; a simple matter of choice. Why the malevolent tone?
I do not know what scriptures you have heard them speak, or what words you have read from their writings that you believe are twisted. Examples with citations would be helpful. Separated from specific citations from books, newsletters, or transcripts, much of the above commentaries within this thread of posts are nearly indistinguishable from gossip.
Thousands of dollars? Wow! Well, who would know that you aren’t somewhere in the neighborhood, or not so far away that you couldn’t come by some time. Perhaps you’re located overseas. Well, it was just an invitation to come see what I intend to go see, and be a part of as well. There’s nothing else like gathering together in the body of Christ. Sorry that my friendly gesture was insulting.
Yes, we had better take Jesus at His Word, for He is the Word made flesh. Now, it’s time to heed your admonition, for you have taken Matthew 6 out of context, or twisted it in your words, to support your opinion. The intended contrast of the scriptural reference is between open hypocrisy in the form of public showmanship masquerading as prayer vs. prayer with no intent of public recognition for recognition’s sake. No doubt you and I both have stood to pray in a public setting, whether with a few, or many. Does that inherently make us hypocrites because we dared to pray in a public setting? The ‘closet’ is not an inflexible doctrine in and of itself, but a metaphor designed to illustrate a point in light of the error that apparently had just happened. If it were a doctrine of sorts, all of our churches do err every time we gather. You and I know the bible is full of corporate prayer, and it is blessed of God.
Heed a man? You keep ramping up the insults. I perceive that you are very practiced at this craft. If we are born again, and filled with the Holy Spirit of God, and abide in Him, and He in us, we should be led by the Spirit, not man.
Choose your words more carefully in this public forum.
Not a bad idea at all to listen for the leading of the Holy Spirit when you hear someone say, “God said.” That is a risky statement, not wise to utter without absolute confidence in your experience in Christ. I am always quick to look for the Holy Spirit’s ‘take’ on such utterances, but I do not share what appears to be your default outlook of skepticism. When we are in the midst of the body of Christ, we should expect to hear words of edification, exhortation and comfort in a public ministry setting, whatever it is called, or by whom it is sanctioned. I am disappointed if I do not, and will not hang around, as should be normal Christian living. Where is the virtue is expecting the worst? Besides, isn’t the KJV of “God said,” the old testament prophet’s “thus saith the Lord?” The same living Lord is still able to speak to those who have ears to hear today, though we know He won’t deviate from the context of the written Word. Only people with an agenda do that to draw attention to themselves.
Show them the need to go to the written Word! Absolutely!
You speak as though you have intimate knowledge. Did you qualify what you’ve said with, “I’ve heard,” or “someone told me?” No, you spoke with the conviction of a first-hand witness, as though you did have intimate knowledge. Do your readers a service, and take responsibility for your words.
Those who I follow? Now you have intimate knowledge of who I follow? Perhaps you need to step back from the keyboard when your words and motives get questioned, and your knowledge of scripture. My pastor does not abide with fools, fakes or Pharisees, and we have encountered our share of each. He has met many of the organizers and sponsors of this event. Holy men of God, all. The Holy Spirit has yet to warn him off yet, nor several of my good friends who have had the time to see some of the preliminary meetings and proceedings for themselves, whose council has proven to be unreproveable in matters of the Word.
If the Holy Spirit, who searches the hearts and minds, and knows the deep things of God, abides within the believer, why is it a stretch to believe that the believer can be told some of His Council? Isn’t that His joy, to reveal His Word and His will to His children?
M’Kayla, you are welcome to join my bandwagon. My bandwagon is “repent of your sins,” “be born again,” and “be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” Grow in the knowledge of God. Seek and save the lost. Go, make disciples of all nations. Face down Pharisees without hesitation, and withstand them to their face, in case they can be saved from the error of their ways.
From my read of scripture, it looks like God really does not want His people concerned with ‘the liars.’ That is His job. Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, saith the Lord! “Who will go for us,” He asks those who are His. Go into all the world and preach the gospel, etc. is our assignment. He is fully capable of deciding what is a heresy, and what is not. He is fully capable dealing with the sinner, the heretic. Does the bulk of what we do in the name of the Lord exalt His Name, or share good news? Are we on task? Being an error-detector is not a task appointed to the believer. When I see the totality of just this thread, I perceive a self-appointed judge, jury, and executioner. I sure hope I have gotten the wrong impression. Regardless, may you and the friends riding on your bandwagon be blessed of the Lord, and steer clear of God’s job, and begin to share good news!
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Randy
It is clear that we are not communicating. So rather than jam up my blog with your rants and raves maybe you should just move on.
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If you go to this link http://www.wildernessoutcry.com/ you will see a relation made between 444 acres of property and a scripture in Isaiah 44:4. Now, we know that MAN numbered the scriptures, not God. We know that God does not speak to us in numbers, we know that numerology is widely used in the occult. So how do these connections point back to God? They cannot.
In addition a reference is made being in the wilderness, of John the Baptist, one crying in the wilderness. John was sent to prepare the way of the Lord, who has come. He has come!!! What are these people preparing their followers for?? Think on that.
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got this in my e-mail today –
1 – false teaching on tithing/giving cash
2 – Supporting Misty Edwards of International House of Prayer
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Mkayla: As someone who was formerly addicted to IHOP and their teachings I thank the Lord everyday he opened my eyes. It cost me many friends and fellowship but it was so worth it. One of the things that still really irritates me is the way all of the interns “expect” us to fund them. I have seen a blog of one in particular who has decided that they need a new house in order to help orphans (which is a good work I wholeheartedly support, don’t get me wrong). But they can’t afford/qualify to buy one. So they are giving you options of helping them by “funding”. I fail to see how they think because they believe they are more dedicated to worship and prayer than we are that we should support the practice they have been taught of funding them. My opinion is get off your rear end and get a real job instead of asking others to support you all the time. While it is right to help those in need, these people are not in that kind of need. Sounds like a rant, I know. It used to be one of the requirements of being on staff at IHOP that there were financial requirements that must be met. I can’t find it on the website anymore but an example of old was something like an intercessory missionary student had to have a certain amount of income (funding) of around $1,400.00 month. That may have changed in the last few years, however if you look around the web at many IHOP students website, they are always asking to be supported. I strongly believe in missions and supporting missions. I don’t believe in supporting someone to indulge in hmmmmmm…..not even sure what to call it anymore. While I don’t question the hearts of these people, I question what they are swallowing hook, line and sinker. Have a serious conversation with one of them. They don’t say “the Word of God says”, they say Mike Bickle says. My heart breaks, especially for this younger generation they have and are pulling into what I like to call a false “truth”.
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concertofprayer,
Thanks for your honest comment. These are appreciated here to get the truth out there! 🙂
My opinion is get off your rear end and get a real job instead of asking others to support you all the time. Yes, I agree wholeheartedly and I have seen those colorful and HUGE “donate” buttons on the pages. Sadly, the spread of the gospel has been confused with “good works”. I’ve read stories similar to yours and the costs of living at IHOP. Even $1400 a month is quite a sizeable amount considering the living quarters are shared with others – to the point of crowding – AND all of the mandatory fasting. I guess those enrolled don’t get a break in cost for the lack of food. And that is how I would see it, a lack of, not a biblical fast.
The teaching Mike Bickle puts out there and the god he worships have nothing in common with the true God! And yes – he and those like him – Lou Engle especially- are all out to capture the youth!
Blessings and peace to you.
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http://www.theramp.org/site/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=280&Itemid=172
Dutch Sheets asks for financial support of Karen Wheaton’s ministry Jan 2010.
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Just to tie this together a little more…
Related Ministries of Dutch Sheets
http://www.dutchsheets.org/
the Call (Lou Engle)
IHOP (Mike Bickle)
Generals International (Cindy Jacobs)
the Ramp (Karen Wheaton)
and of course Pierce and Wagner, along with many others…
just wonder when Joyner and Bentley will show up on the list.
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Randy, twisting my words will only bring the delete key. So, why bother?
See where the link states PLEASE READ, why don’t you?
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Pingback: Warning to the Apostles – Andrew Strom « m'kayla's korner
Hello! I have organized a site for those who are against the Wilderness Outcry. It presents a lot of information and facts about the people who are leading this event. I would like to post a blog which mentions you and quotes some of your comments as well as provide a link directly to your blog. Please get in touch with me if you’re interested and would be willing to help provide material. Thank you!
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Yes, do it. 🙂
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M’Kayla…. great post!
I went over to the “Against the Outcry” site and did a little reading. Those of us in NY haven’t heard much about it (at least i haven’t). I’m not on any of the NAR people’s email lists (I couldn’t take it any more) 🙂 So I’m not up on everything.
I did want to make 2 comments re: Againt the Cry blog…. can you put an RSS feed button on your site?
Secondly: you quoted Dutch as saying: “it will cause a synergistic agreement in the spirit that will allow me to release great power”
Synergistic agreement is just a new age buzz word. It’s not hard to see where these people are getting this stuff!
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This movement going on, or whatever we can call it, by Dutch and company should be a huge warning to everyone of what happens when someone turns from the true teaching of the bible – in context – AND the simplicity of the gospel. It is said that the antichrist will be political and religious, well, here it is! The group in Missouri -Against the Outcry, are made of different beliefs, some are Christians, but some are not. Their concern is this group led by Dutch is going to come in and force their beliefs on everyone in a political move. It is so important that the word gets out the NAR is not speaking for God the Father!! Not His plan, not His ways, not His voice!!! NOT NOT NOT!!!!
I agree with the request for the RSS feed there! 🙂
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M’Kayla, you said: “Their concern is this group led by Dutch is going to come in and force their beliefs on everyone in a political move.”
They are right to be concerned, because Christian dominionism DOES have a political agenda…. it’s called “the rule of biblical law”…. look up rushdoony and reconstructionism…. that’s where it started. Also, Francis Schaffer (?) also taught it.
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Hi Truthspeaker! Yes, we actually do have RSS on the site. At the top of the page you will see the “MORE” nest. That nest will open when you hover over it and below you will find a page with two RSS feeds. One for the front page and one for the blog.
I appreciate you coming by to take a look and for the request!
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Correction: There is only one for Home. The blog RSS was removed because it does not work right with the new nested format. I do, however, keep updates on the home page which notify people of new blogs or information being posted.
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Hi. Thanks for letting us know about that! 🙂
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Got it thanks!
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Yikes. So much here in this point and described in comments to be concerned about. The story about the orphan house, for instance. Can they not rent a dwelling? Why do they believe they must have a new house? Have they not read George Mueller`s story of founding orphan houses and his absolute determination that they would not operate in manipulation by campaigning for funds, advertising or pulling appeals that moved on people`s emotions, but instead would trust God to provide what was needed? The record speaks for itself; George Mueller experienced, over and over again, God`s divine provision, often of needs that were only known within his circle of workers during prayer. Provisions not only of cash, but also of services ( the boiler went out during cold season and God moved on the hearts of tradesmen in that instance ) and of clothing, bedding, household items, etc. I believe it was AW Tozer who said that God`s work, done in God`s way, will never lack God`s supply. If that`s a true fundraising version of Occam`s razor, how many ministries would or should be removed from consideration as far as who we give to? How many appeals should be tuned out?
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