C Peter Wagner in His Own Defense

Some time back I was hit with quite a bit more traffic than usual and was able to trace it back to an online magazine called Al Jezeera. There I found an interesting article regarding Rick Perry and the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR). The reason for my traffic was a link AJ made to one of the articles on my blog. So, it was with great interest that I just happened to find the following info in a google search!  Thought you’d like to see it for yourselves if you haven’t already.

C. Peter Wagner is speaking out against those who revealed what he stands for; dominionism, taking biblical control of the world by force via the seven mountains of influence, and the joining of the NAR to political America.

Volumes have been written already in exposing the false doctrine of the NAR, the organization behind what has become to be considered mainline Christianity. While some of the things that are said up front sound right, a close study of the bible and a comparison to God’s word with Wagner’s books reveal a completely different doctrine. I consider his teachings and all of the NAR activity to be doctrine of demons. (if you are one of his followers, please do some prayerful research!)

Wagner also did a bit of back-peddling after endorsing the apostate preacher Todd Bentley during the Lakeland fiasco, once it was found to be exactly that – a fiasco.

Earlier, a fellow blogger pointed out that the previously published NAR – Apostle/Prophet list I linked to another article here on my blog had disappeared. This was a handy link to have as it made it quite easy to find out if those we trust and take our doctrine from were part of the NAR. My search to find an updated copy revealed that the list is now only available to members!  See here – International Coalition of Apostles.

What could they be hiding? Maybe there is something to the fact that Chuck Pierce held some meetings last year in a Masonic Temple…Secret Societies.

Read on...I’d love your input!



An Update by C. Peter Wagner, Ph.D.


August 18,2011

Surprisingly, the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) has recently become a topic of discussion in the political media. I noticed some mention of it in connection with Sarah Palin’s run for Vice-President, but I considered it relatively insignificant. Then more talk of the NAR surfaced around Michelle Bachman, but it soared to a new level when Rick Perry entered the race for the Republican nomination for President in August. The best I can discern, the NAR has become a tool in the hands of certain liberal opponents of the conservative candidates designed to discredit them on the basis of their friendship with certain Christian leaders supposedly affiliated with the NAR. To bolster this attempt, they seek to accuse the NAR of teaching false doctrine and paste on it the label of “cult.” For example, Forgotten Word Ministries posts an article by Marsha West expressing concerns about Rick Perry’s prayer assembly in Houston on August 6, that uses the title: “Texas Governor’s Upcoming Leadership Event Includes Cult Members.”[1]

Soon after the event, nothing less than Al Jazeera News picked up on the theme and posted an article on the NAR under the title “America’s own Taliban.” My name comes up in most of the Internet postings on NAR, but in this one I am called the “intellectual godfather” of the movement.[2] When I read that, I felt that I had a responsibility to attempt to bring some clarification as to what the NAR is, what are its goals, and how these goals are being implemented. That is why I am writing this brief paper.

What Is the NAR?

The NAR is definitely not a cult. Those who affiliate with it believe the Apostles’ Creed and all the standard classic statements of Christian doctrine. It will surprise some to know that the NAR embraces the largest non-Catholic segment of world Christianity. It is also the fastest growing segment, the only segment of Christianity currently growing faster than the world population and faster than Islam.[3] Christianity is booming now in the Global South which includes sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, and large parts of Asia. Most of the new churches in the Global South, even including many which belong to denominations, would comfortably fit the NAR template.

The NAR represents the most radical change in the way of doing church since the Protestant Reformation. This is not a doctrinal change. We adhere to the major tenets of the Reformation: the authority of Scripture, justification by faith, and the priesthood of all believers. But the quality of church life, the governance of the church, the worship, the theology of prayer, the missional goals, the optimistic vision for the future, and other features, constitute quite a change from traditional Protestantism.

The NAR is not an organization. No one can join or carry a card. It has no leader. I have been called the “founder,” but this is not the case. One reason I might be seen as an “intellectual godfather” is that I might have been the first to observe the movement, give a name to it, and describe its characteristics as I saw them. When this began to come together through my research in 1993, I was Professor of Church Growth at Fuller Theological Seminary, where I taught for 30 years. The roots of the NAR go back to the beginning of the African Independent Church Movement in 1900, the Chinese House Church Movement beginning in 1976, the U.S. Independent Charismatic Movement beginning in the 1970s and the Latin American Grassroots Church Movement beginning around the same time. I was neither the founder nor a member of any of these movements, I was simply a professor who observed that they were the fastest growing churches in their respective regions and that they had a number of common characteristics.

If I was going to write about this phenomenal move of the Holy Spirit, I knew I had to give it a name. I tried “Postdenominational” but soon dropped it because of the objections of many of my friends who were denominational executives. Then, in 1994, I tested “New Apostolic Reformation.” “Reformation” because the movement matched the Protestant Reformation in world impact; “Apostolic” because of all the changes the most radical one was apostolic governance, which I’ll explain in due time; and “New” because several churches and denominations already carried the name “apostolic,” but they did not fit the NAR pattern. Other names of this movement which are more or less synonymous with NAR have been “Neopentecostal,” “Neocharismatic,” “Independent,” or “Nondenominational.”

I am rather fascinated at the lists of individuals whom the media glibly connects with the NAR. I’m sure that some of them wouldn’t even recognize the term. In many cases, however, they would fit the NAR template, but since the NAR has no membership list they themselves would need to say whether they consider themselves affiliated or not.

For those who might be interested in such things, the books I have written related to NAR include The New Apostolic Churches (1998); Churchquake! (1999); Apostles and Prophets (2000), Changing Church (2004); and Apostles Today (2006). These are all available on amazon.com.

Concerns about the NAR

If the critics are using openness to NAR as a slur against conservative political candidates, they obviously need to verbalize what could be wrong with NAR in the first place. To suppose that NAR is a “cult” or that it teaches “heresy” can be attributed only to sloppy or immature journalism. All too often “heresy” has come to mean only that the person disagrees with me and my friends, but the purpose of using the word is to project guilt by association on the politician. It attempts to implant a question: Who would vote for a heretic? But there is little evidence presented that the issue in question incorporates the doctrinal unorthodoxy of a true heresy. Instead, key words are usually dropped which describe legitimate areas of disagreement among Christian theologians on the level of whether or not we baptize infants. Neither of the opposite positions on matters like this deserve to be placed in the category of heresy.

Let me review the media pieces I have collected and pick out some key words in order to clarify my position. I say “my position,” because others in NAR might not agree with me, and they are not compelled to do so. NAR has no official statements of theology or ecclesiology, although a large number of us do happen to agree upon many somewhat radical conclusions. Most of us have long track records of service within traditional Christianity, and we have needed to go through paradigm shifts to get where we are now. Keep in mind that one of the affects of every paradigm shift is that some people get pulled out of their comfort zones. One of the reasons for opposition to some of the more radical ideas of NAR is that certain people have decided not to change and they are upset with those who have chosen to change.
Apostolic governance.As I mentioned before, this is probably the most radical change. I take literally St. Paul’s words that Jesus, at His ascension into heaven, “gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry” (Ephesians 4:11-12). Most of traditional Christianity accepts evangelists, pastors, and teachers, but not apostles and prophets. I think that all five are given to be active in churches today. In fact, St. Paul goes on to say, “And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers…” (1 Corinthians 12:28). This does not describe a hierarchy, but a divine order. Apostles are first in that order.
I strongly object to journalists using the adjective “self-appointed” or “self-declared” when referring to apostles. No true apostle is self-appointed. First of all, they are gifted by God for that ministry. Secondly, the gift and its fruit are recognized by peers and the apostle is “set in” or “commissioned” to the office of apostle by other respected and qualified leaders.

The office of prophet. Prophets are prominent in the Bible, both in the Old Testament and in the New Testament. As we just saw above, apostles are first and prophets are second. Every apostle needs alignment with prophets and every prophet needs apostolic alignment. One of the reasons why both should be active in our churches today is that the Bible says, “Surely God does nothing unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets” (Amos 3:7). And also: “Believe in the Lord your God and you shall be established; believe His prophets and you shall prosper” (2 Chronicles 20:20). I want to prosper and I want you to prosper.

Dominionism. This refers to the desire that some of my friends and I have to follow Jesus and do what He wants. One of the things He does want He taught us to pray for in the Lord’s Prayer: “Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” This means that we do our best to see that what we know is characteristic of heaven work its way into the warp and woof of our society here on earth. Think of heaven: no injustice, no poverty, righteousness, peace, prosperity, no disease, love, no corruption, no crime, no misery, no racism, and I could go on. Wouldn’t you like your city to display those characteristics?

But where does dominion come in? On the first page of the Bible, God told Adam and Eve to “fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, etc.” (Genesis 1:28). Adam, Eve, and the whole human race were to take dominion over the rest of creation, but Satan entered the picture, succeeded in usurping Adam’s dominion for himself and became what Jesus calls “the ruler of this world” (John 14:30). When Jesus came, he brought the kingdom of God and He expects His kingdom-minded people to take whatever action is needed to push back the long-standing kingdom of Satan and bring the peace and prosperity of His kingdom here on earth. This is what we mean by dominionism.

A theocracy. The usual meaning of theocracy is that a nation is run by authorized representatives of the church or its functional religious equivalent. Everyone I know in NAR would absolutely reject this idea, thinking back to Constantine’s failed experiment or some of the oppressive Islamic governments today. The way to achieve dominion is not to become “America’s Taliban,” but rather to have kingdom-minded people in every one of the Seven Mountains: Religion, Family, Education, Government, Media, Arts & Entertainment, and Business so that they can use their influence to create an environment in which the blessings and prosperity of the Kingdom of God can permeate all areas of society.

Extra-biblical revelation. Some object to the notion that God communicates directly with us, supposing that everything that God wanted to reveal He revealed in the Bible. This cannot be true, however, because there is nothing in the Bible that says it has 66 books. It actually took God a couple of hundred years to reveal to the church which writings should be included in the Bible and which should not. That is extra-biblical revelation. Even so, Catholics and Protestants still disagree on the number. Beyond that, I believe that prayer is two way, we speak to God and expect Him to speak with us. We can hear God’s voice. He also reveals new things to prophets as we have seen. The one major rule governing any new revelation from God is that it cannot contradict what has already been written in the Bible. It may supplement it, however.

Supernatural signs and wonders. I have a hard time understanding why some include this in their list of “heresies.” Whenever Jesus sent out His disciples he told them to heal the sick and cast out demons. Why we should expect that He has anything else in mind for us today is puzzling. True, this still pulls some traditionalists out of their comfort zones, but that just goes with the territory. One critic claimed that the NAR has excessive fixation on Satan and demonic spirits. This is purely a judgment call, and it may only mean that we cast out more demons than they do. So what?

Relational Structures

Some of the authors I read expressed certain frustrations because they found it difficult to get their arms around the NAR. They couldn’t find a top leader or even a leadership team. There was no newsletter. The NAR didn’t have an annual meeting. There was no printed doctrinal statement or code of ethics. This was very different from dealing with traditional denominations. The reason behind this is that, whereas denominations are legal structures, the NAR is a relational structure. Everyone is related to, or aligned, with an apostle or apostles. This alignment is voluntary. There is no legal tie that binds it. In fact, some have dual alignment or multiple alignment. Apostles are not in competition with each other, they are in cahoots. They do not seek the best for themselves, but for those who choose to align with them. If the spotlight comes on them, they will accept it, but they do not seek it.

The key to this? The mutual and overriding desire that “Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven!”




[3]David B. Barrett, et. al.,  eds., World Christian Encyclopedia,, Volume 1, Oxford UK: Oxford University Press, 2001, p. 4

39 thoughts on “C Peter Wagner in His Own Defense

  1. In defending himself against the heresy charge, Mr. Wagner has only made a cursory attempt at explaining his views (which would be accepted by most people who want to be a part of a popular group and have no real interest in testing his teaching or prophecies) On the surface, it may sound just dandy.

    As you stated, M’Kayla, we need to do prayerful research and dig much deeper than the superficial information provided here by Mr. Wagner.


  2. This is the ultimate deception that is going to deceive the very elect spoken of in Mathew 24:24. This is Satan at his best deception to date. Dominionism? Come-on.

    “He (Jesus) expects His kingdom-minded people to take whatever action is needed to push back the long-standing kingdom of Satan and bring the peace and prosperity of His kingdom here on earth. This is what we mean by dominionism.”

    This guy is lost. Jesus will not set-up His Millennium Kingdom on Earth in the day of Grace. This guy believes that there could one day (in the day of Grace) be a utopian society brought by “Kingdom minded people”. The scriptures does not support this theology, in Wagner’s words, “heresy”. This belief by NAR is the biggest “heresy” I’ve ever encountered. Run away as far as you an from this NAR organization people.


    • Hi Thanks! This is helpful, but is a list of their council. There used to be a list of all members along with the names of churches/ministries. It was quite long even then. I’m sure it’s grown. According to the ICA its only available to members now.

      In addition, I have been going over Wagner’s statements and am very bothered by his outright lies. More on that later.



  3. I remember the list you’re referring to because it was quite lengthy and our church at that time (Life Center, Harrisburg, PA) & pastor (Charles Stock) were on the list. I have since looked for it again as well, and for some time, the list has only been available to other members. They must’ve been taking too much heat from “unapostolic” questioners.

    What does it mean if a church begins to hide it’s affiliations?

    “This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.” John 3:19-21


  4. Poor Wagner, maligned and misunderstood, almost has me reaching for the kleenex. Not!!
    I have taken the liberty of highlighting a few of his comments to see how they compare to scripture, and believe me , Wagner is creating a movement that is far removed from the church that began in Acts.

    The NAR represents the most radical change in the way of doing church since the Protestant Reformation. end quote.

    Sorry Peter , nowhere in scripture do we read that we are to ” do church”. This is just another euphemism that has crept in via the emergents . On the contrary, the bible unmistakably emphasises that we are to be the church, we are to live as the body Of Christ. Here’s what a true Apostle said on the subject
    I Peter 2:4
    Coming to Him as a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, you also , as living stones , are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

    This is not a doctrinal change.

    Oh yes it is, the ” Seven Mountains” , aka domminionism , cannot even vaguely find support in scripture, and this is even before we consider that the majority of NAR coherents are Charismatics. The Charismatic movement is not commensurate with the gospel that was preached to the first church.


    But the quality of church life, the governance of the church, the worship, the theology of prayer, the missional goals, the optimistic vision for the future, and other features, constitute quite a change from traditional Protestantism.

    Yeah, you got that bit right!
    Lets have a look at ” quality of church life” , chaos is one word that comes to mind when we examine the churches of those who affiliate themselves with Wagner. Bentley, Bickle , Johnson and who knows how many more besides. The endless quest to bring ” heaven to earth ” via the signs and wonders movement has opened the door to the new age and demonic.
    So what about “the governance of the church”, isn’t this what the NAR are about. This is a power struggle. Biblicly, we are to submit to the Holy Spirit and to local elders, but here we see the NAR wanting to move in and corporatise chuches into their own brand of doctrine and force submission to the new ” apostles”.
    ” The worship” , need we say more, this is where the emergents are leading the way.
    ” the theology of prayer” , read contemplative, soaking and meditation.
    ” the missional goals” , already mentioned the Seven Mountains.
    ” the optimistic vision for the future”
    if this following verse is an optimistic vision of the future , heaven help us if we should ever embrace a pessimistic outlook.
    Matt 24:21
    For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no , nor ever shall be.
    And unless those days were shortened , no flesh would be saved , but for the elects sake those days will be shortened.
    Then if anyone says to you ‘ look here is the Christ’ ! or there! do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive , if possible , even the elect.See , I have told you beforehand.

    Whoa !!!, so thats why we see the NAR spreading their spirtitual utopian gospel, to preach otherwise, the biblical reality that the church will be overun by false teachers and prophets would be to expose themselves as the ruinous heap of dung that they are.


  5. What’s the difference between Harold Camping predicting the end of the world and the Dominionist’s predicting Christ’s coming? Nothing really, one has a specific date, the other when the body of Christ is perfected, which really is predicting a date, isn’t it?


  6. Hi M’Kayla.. I read your blog sometimes, I got the link from Ian’s blog a long while back. I have to say that the scary thing Wagner mentioned is how fast the NAR followers are growing, not just in America but all over the world. The reason for that is the lack of godly biblical conviction and correction in their preaching and teaching, this draws the world in. True repentance to them is to turn from the current religious institutions of today and follow the “new thing” God is doing in the earth. The “new thing” is the heresy of dominionism and all it entails. Sad day we live in as far as seeing people fall away, it isn’t a day to be a follower of man.


  7. “Satan is going to use philanthropy to get people to follow the Antichrist. He is going to pretend, like Judas, the “son of perdition,” to care about the poor as a way to manipulate God’s people. …Whenever the Church has institutionally ventured into the political world, and whenever Christians have sought to identify the cause of Christ with a political agenda, it has always brought spiritual and social disaster and required egregious distortions of New Testament doctrine.” J J Prasch form the book “The Shadows of the Beast”.

    NAR is pretty much helping to set up the kingdom of Satan! This is one of the great deceptions that God has sent to deceive even the elect if it were possible. He’s cleaning out His house by sending false prophets, just as He did in the OT to Israel! Thanks for this post, more people need to become more aware.



    • Hi Thanks for stopping by.

      I recently purchased the same J Prasch book! 🙂
      The NAR is spreading like wildfire and those who follow are very slow to hear the truth.


  8. The popularity of individuals such as C. Peter Wagner is a clear indication of people turning away from God’s written word, and leaning to their own understanding and desires.

    If we will become experts on the real Jesus of the Bible, we will not be deceived by the false “Jesus” of the New Apostlic Reformation and other hyper-heretical and blasphemous movements.


  9. …And the strong delusion that God is going to send the people of Tribulation that they’ll believe the lie of the Anti-Christ. 2 Thessalonians 2:11


  10. Hi All, C Peter Wgner must not realise we have Youtube access. If you go to Youtube and search for ‘Joel’s Army’, one of the items you will find is a 2 hr long compilation of very disturbing clips that outline the true designs of the NAR, Wgner, Joyner, Deere, & all the usual suspects, plus a few you may not have heard of. It’s put together by a Russian person, so ‘Bishop’ T D Jakes’ sermon & others have Russian voice over, but there are English subtitles. They talk about training up an army that will make war (literally) on all who oppose ‘God’s Plans’.
    Regretfully, because “Judgement begins in the
    house of God, any Christians who won’t bow to
    the ‘apostolic authority’ will be the first to go.
    The clips of young children being brainwashed
    into swallowing this vile rubbish are very hard to
    watch, as are the ones of Kids doing military
    drills in church as part of services. This is the practical counterpart to Bethel’s hideous training of chidren ‘in the prophetic’, as they put it. C Peter Wagner is quoted a number of times & he’s condemned by his own words, talking of ‘apostles’ commanding military militias, which will enforce ‘God’s rule’ over the area that the ‘apostles has authority over. Very long & the voice over is a bit of a hindrance, but very informative & worth looking at for the scriptural refutation the author presents. Wagner has no way to wriggle out of the evidence here, but I’m more interested in telling folks about it so they will know what ‘Joel’s Army’ means when they hear it mentioned. Both the false & true meanings.
    Jesus is Lord! Maranatha!


    • Alan, it’s easier if you would post the link if you can. These children being trained as a part of an army remind me of the news and video clips I’ve seen of children being trained for jihad. Where’s the difference. yikes. Lord, save the children.
      Thanks Alan.


  11. Hi M’Kayla, OK, I’ll do that. Didn’t want to take liberties on your blog. 😉
    I’ll have to post it from home computer, so I’ll get it done tmorrow.


    • Yes, the NAR is moving heavily into the political arena. Their followers who are not paying attention to the word of God are being swept along with them. I watched a little of the GOP debate and was not impressed at all by Rick Perry. He seemed to be posing for the camera.


  12. I recently came across these videos of a teen camp experience (Team Mania, Honor Academy, ESOAL) connected to Acquire the Fire (Ron Luce’s ministry for teens) with which our former church was heavily involved.

    They seem to have a similar doctrine as the NAR with regard to authority, etc. God help me, but I became so angry watching what these people are doing to kids who so obviously love one another and the living God beyond measure! The abuse of these “little ones” is so unfathomable and how parents pay for this & go along with it is as well. A heinous mocking spirit seems to be at work at these camps!

    The leader, David Hasz, insists that the students refer to him as “Master, Commander, Sir”. (“But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi’ for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. The greatest among you will be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.” Matthew 23: 8 -12) Brainwashing is evident in the interviews. Teens are expected to eat cat food, among other disgusting things, and some have contracted food poisoning at these camps. Physical injuries are apparently commonplace and you are ridiculed if you decide to quit for any reason. (“But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ and then he begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 24:48-51)

    Here is a link to a recovery blog, if you’d like more info:



    • Thanks for sending this information. I couldn’t decide what I wanted to do with it, so decided to link the first video and the recovery link under the Joel’s Army category on the side bar. The things children are subject to is nothing short of abusive. I wish these leaders could be prosecuted somehow.


  13. Pingback: More on C Peter Wagner’s Now Infamous Letter | m'kayla's korner

  14. Has anyone stop for one second to think how awful if an unbeliever were to enter this blog & see all these comments…….? as a believer in Jesus, it pains me to read these finger pointing stuff against other fellow believers. I am sure after my comment, someone will respond that we have to “expose the lies” but surely, we should be praying more because what I feel in reading the comments are, it does not seem to be done in love & perhaps with a somewhat self-righteous tone? Please forgive me if that statement is offensive. But our Lord Jesus has said “By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” (John 13:35) It is already hard enough to share the Gospel of our Salvation to skeptical non-believers without this in-fighting within the Body. I agree it is so easy for fallible humans in the Church worldwide to go to extremes/excesses in a lot of things/practices (examples abound in the past & present without having to mention any here), but can we just brush off everything/anyone connected (even remotely) to what is referred to as NAR? (btw, I only heard of this term today from websites). If the “practice” / “belief” of taking authority/dominion/praying for God’s Kingdom & His will to be done on earth as it is in Heaven (Matt 6:9,10) ecetera by NAR are considered “heresies”…..wouldn’t it be edifying if we PRAY more instead; i.e to bring the matter before the Lord, to seek Him & to study the whole counsel of His Word. Acts 5:38-40 leaves us with the question in all this……..what if ?


    • Pipi,
      The New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) formed by C Peter Wagner is devoted to taking the world for Christ with the ideology that Christ cannot return until believers set up his kingdom first. The phrase “Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven” is taught that there should be no difference between the things that go on in heaven and the things that go on throughout the earth. When you hear NAR members state that phrase, that is what they mean. Do either of these ideas seem biblically correct to you?

      Yes, many of us do pray AND we expose the truth. It is not only a matter of love, it is also a matter of correct doctrine. The NAR is far removed from both. Christ said if we love Him we would do as He has said. The NAR does quite the opposite. I have great concern for people who have been taken in by false teachers. If you are a believer, so should you. Their false teachings are taking over the churches and soon there will be nothing left of Christianity in any of them. And by the way, a false teacher/prophet/evangelist, etc. is not a true believer, brother or sister in the faith. This should shake you up enough to dispense with the “lets just love everyone and get along” theme. Christ loved, He also corrected!


  15. M’Kayla, I actually did not intend to post another comment but will do so once more only : first to clarify what I mean about “love” i.e I do not mean (quoting you “lets just love everyone and get along” theme unquote). That description is not my stand at all…..I will not/will never make any compromises when it comes to truth (!) but what I had actually meant was for us to make comments in love. Yes, Christ corrected, but His love & compassion was the ultimate motivation in His rebuke of us fallible humans. I trust we all have the same desire to see people (unbelievers, deceived teachers etc) come to repentance & true faith in Christ & so we need to pray for them, ya ? And to assure you, I believe, I love & have followed Jesus for the last 34 years, and like you, just as concern with false teachings/teachers & way out practices (!). With some of the excesses & sometimes even bizzare teachings of the North American church, I do understand in a very small measure your background & your blog even though I am a Chinese woman living in East Asia. May the Lord keep us also from deception as we continue to be like the Bereans with the Word of God (Acts 17:11)


    • I can appreciate and understand what it is you are trying to say. However, I do believe there is a clear distinction to be made between people who are deceived and those who are deceivers. I don’t think the separation between the two is far, because how long does it take for a person who receives good sounding lies as truth to turn around and proclaim it to others? Not that long.

      If, at any time, one of these well known false teachers or prophets would come to me asking for help, in repentance, or even just a beginning in guidance I would gladly, respectfully and prayerfully do all I could to help them. I know there have been others who have offered their help to these leaders, and some, as myself to pastors and friends, to only be dismissed as best. The things I preach, so to speak, I have lived out.

      For you to state or to imply that I am not doing what I do in love, or that I do not pray enough is in itself a judgement. How are you to know what I do? I am angry that so many people are duped into believing these lies, thinking they are following Christ, yet are instead following a well designed demons. What will become of these people? Is that not serious? Yes, we are talking about eternal consequences, eternal separation from God.

      Proclaiming the truth does not make the preaching of the gospel harder. It is the other side and just as important. Repentance is a hard place for the times we live in, simply because it is the times we live in. There is great darkness and people believe whatever it is they find that make them feel good about who they are and what they do. Warning the masses about wolves does not make the gospel harder to see, the darkness of sin and its acceptance does.

      If you were to do a little research you would see things things I speak of are not just in North America, but all throughout the world. If you were to read some of the comments here, you would read the pleas for help and prayer as many watch horrified their churches and loved ones swept away by this tide of false and bizarre teachings. And it you look just a bit deeper you will see the connection between mainstream Christianity, the New Age, Roman Catholicism, and eastern religions.

      As a friend and long time researcher has told me, hold on, we ain’t seen nothin’ yet!

      NO, I will not go quietly.


  16. Pipi,
    M’Kayla pretty much answered this, but I have dear friends who are completely mixed up in these false teachings. My family escaped from them, through the mercies of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, some time ago. But we have loved ones who are “left behind” in the dark. It is heart wrenching. We pray for them often and try to reach out to them with sound and gentle Biblical correction and with great affection as the LORD allows. What we receive in return is persecution from those we love so dearly. There is nothing more painful then to be rejected and persecuted by those who you thought were brothers and sisters. When you leave a “cult” system and speak out against it, you become demonized. The “cult” works hard to insure that no one will listen to you. That is what many of the posters on this blog have had to live through. Thankfully our God is more powerful than all the lies and persecutions; and He strengthens us through Jesus in His Word.

    The leaders and pushers of these false doctrines are the ones addressed on this blog and others like it. Pipi, if you had a sheep and it wandered out of its pen and was surrounded by wolves trying to kill it; what would you do? That is what my friends are like. I can’t just stand back and say nothing. The same way that I try to share the Gospel with unsaved souls; I try to share the Gospel with deceived believers. Those so-called shepherds who refuse to hold to the teachings of Jesus…to receive and preach the full counsel of the Word of God…are NOT my brothers; they are wolves. I want to warn people away from them.

    The first post listed on the home page of M’kayla’s blog is currently about a self-proclaimed “healer” named Todd Bentley. If you scroll down through the comments section, there is a short video of Todd Bentley in his own words. If you watch it, you will see one small example of why we all are posting. I long to see more Christians in the West caring about God’s Word enough to be good Bereans.

    God bless you, Pipi, and keep us all safely in His Word.


  17. I find that charges of heresy and false doctrine are thrown around too easily nowadays. But as someone who has actually been around NAR-type churches, I know that most hold to the basic tenets of the Christian faith. If one believes that there are no power gifts, no apostles or prophets, no miracles, no supernatural healing through the Holy Spirit for believers today, then that should be out in the open. Then those of us who know God did not leave behind a powerless church can simply disagree. Will say this though, we need to be careful about attributing acts of the Holy Spirit to demons. Really dangerous ground there! Also dangerous thing that occurs in some of these churches who deny the full work of the Holy Spirit is that they make a god out of their intellect.


    • The true danger arises after the NAR meetings, teachings and propheciesstep away from the true tenets of Christian faith, outside the word of God. these lies generally take hold just after the truth is stated. I am speaking from personal experience and The Lord was good and faithful to show me the difference. this He will also do for anyone willing to search for the truth.


  18. George Fosset said, “Will say this though, we need to be careful about attributing acts of the Holy Spirit to demons. Really dangerous ground there! Also dangerous thing that occurs in some of these churches who deny the full work of the Holy Spirit is that they make a god out of their intellect.”

    The dangerous ground cuts both ways: to attribute what is good to what is evil and to attribute what is evil to what is good. We know them by their fruits:

    “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.” (Gal 5:22-23)

    Things like “drunk in the spirit”, “slain in the spirit”, “token the holy ghost” or any other such nonsense that these “churches” are participating in are clear enough indication that it is not the Holy Spirit of God through Jesus Christ operating within them. Those “acts” are devoid of gentleness and self-control. God NEVER operates outside of His Holy Word. If you seek Him out in truth and through His Word, He will make that clear enough to you.

    “Woe to those who call evil good
    and good evil,
    who put darkness for light,
    and light for darkness,
    who put bitter for sweet
    and sweet for bitter.

    Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight.” (Isa 5:20-21)

    We cling to the Word of God, because we do not have any wisdom outside of Him. It is His Word, understood through His Holy Spirit, which tells us what is of Him or not. Those who would teach you other things apart from or twisting His Word are the ones who are wise in their own eyes. THAT FRUIT is evident in all the many books, cds, dvds, and other garbage they would sell you. We simply hold up the Word of God freely and in truth. Judge for yourself which is right.


  19. Revelation 17:9 KJV
    And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are SEVEN MOUNTAINS, on which the woman sitteth.


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